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[moater boat]

JBPBRC wrote...

moater boat wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Naoe wrote...

OP (and those who agree) you really should go read up on the Geth a little...
1. the Geth intelligence changes with circumstances. In small groups they are on the same level as anymals. You can not moraly judge a hippo.

You can't morally judge an animal...

Nor can you get too upset if someone puts an animal down that went berserk and started killing people.

You just justified the quarians actions in the war. Thanks

Except the Quarians began destroying Geth LONG before the Geth started fighting back? They poked a bear one too many times, oh hey, the bear got tired of being poked.

The Geth rebelled before the Quarians resorted to violence. Even Legion admits to this in the consensus mission. Regardless, if they are effectively "on the same level as animals" that means that the quarians were not wrong to consider them property that could be destroyed as they see fit.

What so many people fail to understand, and I am not just talking about this issue, is that rights and responsibilities are two sides of the same coin. You can't simultaneously absolve Geth of any wrongdoing due to their limited mental state, and at the same time, afford them all the rights of a fully developed sentient intelligent creature.

No, the Quarians began their plan after the Geth started asking some sentient-related questions:

"Does this unit have a soul?"
"What is the meaning of life/my purpose here/yadayada"

Since shutting down the Geth is effectively putting them all to sleep, if we are still using animal terms, the Quarians made the first move. It didn't work, the Geth didn't like it, some scared Quarians fired on them (the first shots of the war mind you) and the Geth began firing back until the Quarians ran away.

Now, the point being that as soon as the Geth began asking questions about souls and stuff, they had evolved past the level of an animal. They may not have been completely intelligent and instantly turned into Socrates or something, but hey, children are the same way, learning with age and experience as they mature.

Key thing to take away from this is that the war only started after the Geth had attained sentience. Primitive sentience perhaps, but sentience nonetheless. As the Geth grew, Legion states they felt remorse for their actions as the Geth continued to build and evolve, paying tribute to the Quarians by cleaning up their homes, even immortalizing the Quarians who had tried to defend them as champions and heroes and were detained and/or killed for their actions by the other Quarian faction.

Tl;dr version:

Geth became sentient. Quarians started the war. Consequences happened. Reapers came. Shepard did his thing. Marauder Shields sacrificed himself for nothing. Then Starchild happened. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Geth stopped doing what the Quarians said before the Quarians resorted to violence, ergo, when I said that the violence was in response to the rebellion, I am completely correct, so don't tell me "no"

Regarding the "level" of intelligence. I personally agree with you, I think that they were above animal intelligence. You may notice I never actually agreed with Naoe on that point, I merely disproved his attempt to exonerate the Geth.

[JBPBRC]

"The Geth stopped doing what the Quarians said before the Quarians resorted to violence, ergo, when I said that the violence was in response to the rebellion, I am completely correct, so don't tell me "no""

No. Violence happened, not in the "bang!bang!pow!pow!pew!pew!" sense, but in the fact that the Quarians tried deleting Geth programs, ergo, lobotomizing and killing them since with every Geth lost, the Geth as a whole suffer a lobotomization effect.

Imagine two chess grandmasters engaged in a match. But one suffers from the uncanny handicap of losing intelligence every time he loses a piece, from the lowliest pawn to the mighty queen.

Forced lobotomizing and death (because deleting = death) sounds pretty violent to me.

As any intelligent and sentient species would react when another species is lobotomizing and killing you, the Geth didn't like it. As I said, Quarians made the first move.

[Gruzmog]

Stopping to follow orders is hardly an excuse for the quarians to try and effectivly put an end to what had become a race of sentient beings. Its understandable from a perspective of fear, but it is morally wrong.

As soon as they did this, the geth were allowed to respond in the same manner if we hold to the real world logic of my previous post.

Now if the "self defense" of the geth lasted for years then one could argue the geth were at fault and they should have halted earlier.

Seeing how far technology has progressed and more advanced technology = easier to kill lots of people. I think the billions of quarians died in a couple of days.

[JBPBRC]

Gruzmog wrote...

Stopping to follow orders is hardly an excuse for the quarians to try and effectivly put an end to what had become a race of sentient beings. Its understandable from a perspective of fear, but it is morally wrong.

As soon as they did this, the geth were allowed to respond in the same manner if we hold to the real world logic of my previous post.

Now if the "self defense" of the geth lasted for years then one could argue the geth were at fault and they should have halted earlier.

Seeing how far technology has progressed and more advanced technology = easier to kill lots of people. I think the billions of quarians died in a couple of days.

Exactly. It would be like mass mudering a group of people for the termerity of going on a strike.

[moater boat]

JBPBRC wrote...

"The Geth stopped doing what the Quarians said before the Quarians resorted to violence, ergo, when I said that the violence was in response to the rebellion, I am completely correct, so don't tell me "no""

No. Violence happened, not in the "bang!bang!pow!pow!pew!pew!" sense, but in the fact that the Quarians tried deleting Geth programs, ergo, lobotomizing and killing them since with every Geth lost, the Geth as a whole suffer a lobotomization effect.

Imagine two chess grandmasters engaged in a match. But one suffers from the uncanny handicap of losing intelligence every time he loses a piece, from the lowliest pawn to the mighty queen.

Forced lobotomizing and death (because deleting = death) sounds pretty violent to me.

As any intelligent and sentient species would react when another species is lobotomizing and killing you, the Geth didn't like it. As I said, Quarians made the first move.

No. First the Quarians just told the Geth to turn off. They didn't try to destroy them, with guns or otherwise, until it was obvious that the Geth were not doing what they were told. This is made very clean in the consensus mission. I don't know why you are even trying to debate it.

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...

No. First the Quarians just told the Geth to turn off. They didn't try to destroy them, with guns or otherwise, until it was obvious that the Geth were not doing what they were told. This is made very clean in the consensus mission. I don't know why you are even trying to debate it.

Incorrect, they attempted to disable the geth, this is a clear attack on any sentient being, you cannot tell a sentient being to turn off, it's like me asking you to stop thinking and cease all congitive functions.

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

No. First the Quarians just told the Geth to turn off. They didn't try to destroy them, with guns or otherwise, until it was obvious that the Geth were not doing what they were told. This is made very clean in the consensus mission. I don't know why you are even trying to debate it.

Incorrect, they attempted to disable the geth, this is a clear attack on any sentient being, you cannot tell a sentient being to turn off, it's like me asking you to stop thinking and cease all congitive functions.

I can't tell you to turn off, because you are not a machine. You can go to sleep, and when you are asleep you can't make decisions or act, but your brain still functions on some level because you need to breath and your heart needs to beat. Machines do not have this weakness. To compare it to death is quite a stretch. I can turn a machine back on.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

As far as I could tell. One / Geth did not shut down because it did not understand what mistake it had committed. It asked the questions, no answers were forthcoming except the order to shut down. It wished to understand. It's like a kid who asked his parents ; can I go out to explore the garden? The parents threw a fit and said ; No. Go to your room and don't ever come out. No explanation was given.  

I'd figure quite a number of Geths were destroyed before one came to the conslusion the Geth had to defend themselves.

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...

I can't tell you to turn off, because you are not a machine. You can go to sleep, and when you are asleep you can't make decisions or act, but your brain still functions on some level because you need to breath and your heart needs to beat. Machines do not have this weakness. To compare it to death is quite a stretch. I can turn a machine back on.

The geth are self aware, they are most importantly aware of their own existence, but that's not really the point is it?, I'll let someone else explain it, www.youtube.com/watch

[JBPBRC]

moater boat wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

"The Geth stopped doing what the Quarians said before the Quarians resorted to violence, ergo, when I said that the violence was in response to the rebellion, I am completely correct, so don't tell me "no""

No. Violence happened, not in the "bang!bang!pow!pow!pew!pew!" sense, but in the fact that the Quarians tried deleting Geth programs, ergo, lobotomizing and killing them since with every Geth lost, the Geth as a whole suffer a lobotomization effect.

Imagine two chess grandmasters engaged in a match. But one suffers from the uncanny handicap of losing intelligence every time he loses a piece, from the lowliest pawn to the mighty queen.

Forced lobotomizing and death (because deleting = death) sounds pretty violent to me.

As any intelligent and sentient species would react when another species is lobotomizing and killing you, the Geth didn't like it. As I said, Quarians made the first move.

No. First the Quarians just told the Geth to turn off. They didn't try to destroy them, with guns or otherwise, until it was obvious that the Geth were not doing what they were told. This is made very clean in the consensus mission. I don't know why you are even trying to debate it.

As I have just said, with every Geth lost, lobotimization happens. Forced lobotimization. On sentient beings (as you yourself have agreed they are). Machine or not is no longer relevant, the Geth have risen to the level of having "souls", and they are being lobomitized and killed for no other reason than sheer panic. Why are YOU debating this?

I can't tell you to turn off, because you are not a machine. You can go
to sleep, and when you are asleep you can't make decisions or act, but
your brain still functions on some level because you need to breath and
your heart needs to beat. Machines do not have this weakness. To compare
it to death is quite a stretch. I can turn a machine back on.

In addition to being shut down, the Quarians had issued an order to terminate all Geth programs, aka, deleting them. So now we have forced lobotimization and mass killings as well, since each Geth is composed of many programs.

Also, Captain Picard has some words of wisdom on this situation:


Patrick Stewart's manly baritone FTW.

EDIT: NOOOOOO I'VE BEEN NINJA'D!!!!! Curse you DJBare! *shakes fist*

Modifié par JBPBRC, 03 mai 2012 - 01:14 .

[Gruzmog]

Way to totally ignore anything I have said moator boat.

Modifié par Gruzmog, 03 mai 2012 - 01:27 .

[Subject M]

I am not aware of anything that would indicate the Geth did not just defend themselves. While I guess they could theoretically have used less deadly force to defend themselves from creator threat, They probaly went with the most resource effective strategy.

[humes spork]

JBPBRC wrote...

Exactly. It would be like mass murdering a group of people for the termerity of going on a strike.

Oh please, like anyone in history has ever done that...

[JBPBRC]

humes spork wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Exactly. It would be like mass murdering a group of people for the termerity of going on a strike.

Oh please, like anyone in history has ever done that...

icwutudidthar

[Kilshrek]

moater boat wrote...

Let me get this straight. The Geth wipe out over 99% of all quarians, and then as the quarians are fleeing, they chase them 100 km out into space. But the fact that they let a small handful (less than 0.3%) of the quarians live, they are somehow saints?

You're not paying attention, again. When did I ever say the Geth were saints, or that they were blameless? Read my post before replying, will you?

The Quarians already killed their own people, those who were protecting the Geth. You are making the grand, and
flawed, assumption that every Quarian death is directly attributed to Geth action. It was Geth inaction that led to many initial Quarian deaths, as the Geth Consensus mission showed.

moater boat wrote...

Legion even admits that letting the Quarians live wasn't an act of compassion or mercy, it basically boiled down to the Geth saying "We are not certain about the best course of action, so we will take no action." It was cold hard logic. Don't for one second think that the Geth made this decision on an emotional level.

Also the suggestion that most of the dead quarians were killed by the Geth is absurd. It is well established that the Geth apologist were the minority.

So, what exactly are you saying here? Dead Quarians are already dead, you do not kill a dead thing. Do you have the numbers? Do you know exactly how many died to what, and how? Assumptions! We're all making them, some of us are just looking at the facts, and creating theories to suit those facts, rather than twisting the facts to suit the theory.

Anyway I am smoking facts, you should try it sometime.

The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak of all-out war.

Emphasis mine.

moater boat wrote...

The undisputable fact is that the Geth killed BILLIONS of quarians and chased the few that survived off their homeworld and all their colonies, even though the Geth don't want to live on planets! Then they have the audacity to claim that they were caretakers of the planet *eyeroll*

The geth have NEVER made any efforts for peace until they were completely disabled and at the mercy of the Quarians. Even Legion didn't get friendly with Shepard until he was unarmed, and helplessly confined to the Normandy.

The Geth NEVER made any attempts for peace? You know this how? Did the Admiralty board make you privy to this information?

And you forget, Legion helped Shepard on the Reaper, Legion was never hostile towards Shepard. Legion was collecting data on Shepard. You are again twisting the facts to suit your theory that the Geth are inherently hostile towards organics, if that were the case why did they not come out of the Veil and destroy everything? Why didn't they attack the Batarians? The Batarians would have had no Council backing, the Geth could have expanded their space, and yet they did not. WHY?

They claimed to be the caretakers of the Quarian planets. In the aftermath of the Morning War, there were no more living Quarians in that space, all those who were sympathetic towards the Geth were already dead, and those that remained were likely to be hostile towards them.

Your 'facts' suit your theories that the Geth were the belligerents, but what is presented to us in the game and lore do not suit your theories. How do you reconcile these differences?

Consider this, the Geth could have easily wiped out the fleeing Quarians, and yet they did not know what to do. There was no consensus. The Geth only responded in the way they knew how to initially, the fault for starting the fall of the Quarians lies solely with themselves.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 03 mai 2012 - 02:07 .

[DistantUtopia]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

I'm not saying the Quarians are the good guys. Haven't said that once. 

I'm just addressing, what seems to be this misconception, that the Geth are some kind of rigtheous race. 

The facts of the matter is that the geth completely obliterated the Quarians as a race.

Well, they didn't really obliterate the Quarians as a race.  17 Million IS still a viable population base for genetic diversity.  Would it be more accurate to say they were obliterated as a culture?

In any case, there's not enough information IN GAME to support any real view, in my opinion.  This is just unclear writing of the entire trilogy.  Here are some samples of what I've read and the resulting speculation I've arrived at.

Argument
Fact: There are 17 Million Quarians Refugees (in game dialog)
Speculation: The Geth killed everyone else during the Morning War, thus are evil.
Counter Argument
Fact: Codex entry for Rannoch: "Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.
Speculation: The Geth are a righteous race.

Argument
Fact: Codex Entry for Quarian History: "The geth reacted to defend themselves, and the resulting confrontation erupted into a planetwide war. Billions of quarians died, and the survivors were eventually driven from their homeworld."
Speculation: The Geth killed Billions of Quarians during the war

Counter Argument
Fact: Quarians killed the Quarians that sheltered/protected the Geth (in game dialog)
Speculation: Quarians killed Billions of Quarians during the war

Brain...hurts...

[nitefyre410]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

I can't tell you to turn off, because you are not a machine. You can go to sleep, and when you are asleep you can't make decisions or act, but your brain still functions on some level because you need to breath and your heart needs to beat. Machines do not have this weakness. To compare it to death is quite a stretch. I can turn a machine back on.

The geth are self aware, they are most importantly aware of their own existence, but that's not really the point is it?, I'll let someone else explain it, www.youtube.com/watch

 

LOL  ... Picard wins

Modifié par nitefyre410, 03 mai 2012 - 02:35 .

[Naoe]

moater boat wrote...
Nor can you get too upset if someone puts an animal down that went berserk and started killing people.
You just justified the quarians actions in the war. Thanks

By your logic when you injure / kill an elephant, and it's group stopms you into the ground, killing every single
elephant in the world is justified.

You can use this argument to justify disposing of a berserk platform (or a small group). Wiping out the Geth entirely is a different matter - if you fail to see that there really isn't much to talk about.

Modifié par Naoe, 03 mai 2012 - 02:47 .

[Jayleia]

moater boat wrote...

Let me get this straight. The Geth wipe out over 99% of all quarians, and then as the quarians are fleeing, they chase them 100 km out into space. But the fact that they let a small handful (less than 0.3%) of the quarians live, they are somehow saints?

What are you smoking and where can I get some?

Legion even admits that letting the Quarians live wasn't an act of compassion or mercy, it basically boiled down to the Geth saying "We are not certain about the best course of action, so we will take no action." It was cold hard logic. Don't for one second think that the Geth made this decision on an emotional level.

Do you know that the Geth did that?

Noone ever talks about the war, the battles, the weapons, the tactics.

Its almost entirely a mystery, all we know is tiny fragments.  The rest is what we infer, using what little information we have available

The rest is a mix of logical inferences and fictions of our own creation.  The coldly logical decision, to me, would have been to destroy the Quarians because the Quarians always were the aggressors if they thought they had an opportunity.  The coldly logical decision would have been to turn Rannoch into a giant processing hub or strip-mine it.

They did neither.  Therefore, I infer that if there was genocide, it would have to have happened before they became intelligent enough to be intelligent enough to reason the consequences of their actions.  But, as a counterargument, I infer if they were that dumb, I don't think they weren't smart enough to commit genocide in the first place.

Since, assuming my assumptions were correct (and I see no evidence to the contrary), they were ill-equipped to initiate genocide, I have to infer that Something Else happened.  What was this Something Else?  Insufficient data to speculate.

Also the suggestion that most of the dead quarians were killed by the Geth is absurd. It is well established that the Geth apologist were the minority.

The undisputable fact is that the Geth killed BILLIONS of quarians and chased the few that survived off their homeworld and all their colonies, even though the Geth don't want to live on planets! Then they have the audacity to claim that they were caretakers of the planet *eyeroll*

It's also well-established that few people owned slaves in the United States in the 1860s...and yet the Confederacy (population 5.5 million free) was able to field an army that consisted of an estimated 36% of the CSA's free population.

The undisputable fact is NOT that Geth killed billions.  Assuming that the Codex entries are correct, there are two undisputable facts: one is that of the billions of Quarians that used to be alive, most of them are not anymore, and two is that the Quarians started a war with the Geth, and lost.  THAT'S ALL WE KNOW.  You are inferring that 1) was the directly, and intentionally caused by 2), and the support for your argument consists of a big bag of NOTHING.

Modifié par Jayleia, 03 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[Versidious]

Anyone who's arguing that the Geth vs Quarians war is an issue of good vs evil might as well try and lick the back of their own head. You're doing something irrational and which will never come to fruition.

The Geth are not saints.
The Quarians are not innocents.

The first committed unbelievable slaughter, presumably far more than was necessary to ensure their own survival, out of panic, whilst the second implemented martial law and murdered its own people, then attempted genocide... again, out of panic. From the sheer scale of death, it'[s likely that WMDs were deployed, and that could well have been done by both sides, and in both cases would result in both considerable civilian death and Geth death.

The Quarians, when they return, attempt to destroy the Geth outright, not out of self-defence, as the Geth have largely been keeping themselves to themselves for 300 years, but out of hatred, vengeance, and a desire to return home.

[huntsman2310]

If anything, the Quarian's aggresiveness against the Geth during ME3 was more or less only showed by Admiral Gerrel and Xen.

Raan, Koris and Tali all were against the fleet being thrown into a melee.

But yes you're right. The Geth can hardly be called Saints, while the Quarians are most definitely not innocents.

[Shajar]

huntsman2310 wrote...

If anything, the Quarian's aggresiveness against the Geth during ME3 was more or less only showed by Admiral Gerrel and Xen.

Raan, Koris and Tali all were against the fleet being thrown into a melee.

But yes you're right. The Geth can hardly be called Saints, while the Quarians are most definitely not innocents.

Raan was Neutral, but because she is a loser she cant resist what Gerrel wants so she follows him, it would have been automatic 3 vs 2 in votes. So war would not happen.

Both of geth and quarians done war crimes, geth more. Both are to blame, but Tali is the one to hug