446 réponses à ce sujet

[HellbirdIV]

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War. On Tuchanka in ME2, Legion states that what happened to Tuchanka was "similar" (though Rannoch was not as severe). It is highly likely that the quarians ended up killing millions of their own by sacrificing entire cities with nuclear weapons to wipe out large concentrations of geth.

99% of the population is a staggering number however there are no details on how long the Morning War lasted, nor the exact manner in which it was fought. From what we can see in ME3, the beginning of it it was a long process of civil unrest and possibly civil war amongst the quarians while the geth were just wandering around confused and getting shot at, occasionally having the presence of mind to shoot back.

The geth were created to completley overtake their economy and make quarians able to compete with galactic powers like the asari and salarians, so when the geth were declared synthetics non grata the entire quarian economy likely collapsed overnight. Combine this with the quarians seeming desperate enough to kill their own people to get at the geth and you have an entire infrastructure reduced to charred ashes and radioactive dust.

As a result, it is likely that the vast majority of quarians died from disease, injury, radiation sickness and starvation rather than out-and-out warfare. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 01 mai 2012 - 11:23 .

[mauro2222]

Both sides were wrong, that's a fact. And, actually, the only ****s in this conflict were the idiots in the rest of the galaxy.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 mai 2012 - 11:24 .

[Sholeh01]

You forgot that the Quarians also essentially had a civil war over the Geth at the same time that they were fighting the Geth. Not saying your analysis is wrong, but that civil war probably got very bloody and disease following the exodus from Rannoch also likely accounted for another high percentage.

[Catamantaloedis]

mauro2222 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

*snip*

This isn't a valid comparison. The Quarians did not believe in peace with an AI, their fear pushed them to fight to the last one, Gerre and Xen are a clear example of this. The geth were the ones wanting peace, and were destroyed, so the war continued.

There's a difference between not wanting peace when you're civilization is at its peak strength and capable of fighting, and when your government, cities, masses of people, hospitals, industry, have all been decimated.

You think the Quarians would not have been begging for peace after the Geth bled their whole race? It's nonsensical. 

Imagine the Soviet Union invaded America and killed 999/1000 Americans. You think too many people would be holding onto "Better dead than Red", then? That's incredible..

You still use humans as comparison, wich invalidates your argument.

The geth were infants being attacked, and the quarians were scared idiots. I'm sure that the 99% is just an exageration, otherwise the stupidity of the quarians has no way of being measured.

And no, instead of begging for peace they could have escaped much earlier. Instead of that they continued with their attacks to the point that the Geth simply considered them as "things to kill because are bad."

That's not an exaggeration. Before the war there were billions of Quarians. After, with 300 years in between, there are only 17 million left.  That leaves less than 1% survival.

It is impossible to believe that that many quarians would have been killed if there was no genocide. Millions would have attempted to flee as war refugees, even before their final departure. They had to have been exterminated. There is literally no other explanation.
I've used several comparisons, some which apply to fanatical nations in the real world, and others which come from the ME universe itself: the Krogan. Arguably the most belligerent race in the universe surrendered simply because of the genophage, which only moderated it's reproduction, and did not really cause genocide. Are we really to believe the Quarians, faced with the very real threat of extinction, would not have attempted to flee or make peace once it was clear that the war was lost? And it would have been lost much, much sooner than they lost the multitude of people that they had.  They could have lost only 1/3 of their population and it would have been clear that the war was a forgone conclusion.

And as I said before. Yes, the Quarians were fighting amongst themselves, but are we really to believe that they killed each other by the BILLIONS?

[humes spork]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War...That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

Yup, the quarians had the geth build the house, decorate it, clean it, cook, and walk the dog, and promptly burnt the whole ****er down out of spite just to get at the geth. And, they locked the wife and kids in the basement before setting the fire for daring to ask why they're burning the house down.

[111987]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War. On Tuchanka in ME2, Legion states that what happened to Tuchanka was "similar" (though Rannoch was not as severe). It is highly likely that the quarians ended up killing millions of their own by sacrificing entire cities with nuclear weapons to wipe out large concentrations of geth.

99% of the population is a staggering number however there are no details on how long the Morning War lasted, nor the exact manner in which it was fought. From what we can see in ME3, the beginning of it it was a long process of civil unrest and possibly civil war amongst the quarians while the geth were just wandering around confused and getting shot at, occasionally having the presence of mind to shoot back.

The geth were created to completley overtake their economy and make quarians able to compete with galactic powers like the asari and salarians, so when the geth were declared synthetics non grata the entire quarian economy likely collapsed overnight. Combine this with the quarians seeming desperate enough to kill their own people to get at the geth and you have an entire infrastructure reduced to charred ashes and radioactive dust.

As a result, it is likely that the vast majority of quarians died from disease, injury, radiation sickness and starvation rather than out-and-out warfare. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

The Quarians did not use WMD's against one another. Tali says so on Tuchanka in ME2.

The Quarians, while wrong, didn't do anything that any other organic society would have done. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight, but if you listen to Tali in ME1, her arguments are quite compelling.

i think the real problem is that the writers at Bioware decided after ME1 that the Geth were good guys. There was nothing in ME1 after all that even remotely hinted at the Geth being peaceful.

[justafan]

TheLostGenius wrote...

The problem is, despite their technical ingenuity the Quarians are both idiotic, unethical and ruthless. If you watch the memories in Legion's missions, you clearly see the "Quarian Gestapo" marching around executing innocent Geth and their Creators/Masters. It's actually very likely that their AI advanced when they deemed it necessary to protect their Creators from the "killer Quarians". Obviously a large part of the genocide wasn't just the geth in self defense but was actually Quarians murdering geth sympathizers, which may have been a lot of the population.

Too much technology and too much dumb = the Quarians.

1. "idiotic" - Gerrel is an idiot, yes, but Tali and Xen are both geniouses (Xen is a little loco,  but she is smart enough to nearly single handedly destroy the geth).  Not to mention that they were winning the second war before the reapers showed up.  Also we know nothing about the previous Quarian leadership, but that leads to point 2.

2.  "unethical"-  The geth were made the way they were becasue it WAS ethical (they were initially VI, never inteded to be AI).  Council laws strictly forbid developement of AI and demand that they be destroyed if created (recall ME1 Luna mission and Citadel AI missions, it is also mentioned these laws predate the geth).  Quarians were acting within Council law, and only after the war had started was it discovered the geth were truly AI.

3. "Ruthless" - There was no reason to believe the geth were anything more than malfunctioning VI at first.  In accordance with council laws, they try to deactivate the malfunctioning units in order to prevent such an AI rebellion from happening (You do the exact same thing to EDI in Mass Effect 1, and the crazy space station ME2).  Some Quarians might have initially resisted, but once the geth went into full genocide mode, I highly doubt the geth were still trying to protect anyone but themselves.

Modifié par justafan, 01 mai 2012 - 11:32 .

[Verit]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

It is illogical and unbelievable to believe that any population would fight themselves to extinction. It makes no sense and is practically impossible.

Still, that's exactly what the game implies happens if you choose the side of the geth in the quarian/geth conflict. Gerrel refuses to retreat and sends the entire quarian fleet to their deaths. Outside of those numbers you mentioned, there's really no indication that the geth did not act out of self-defense in the Morning War.

[Hussain747715]

As many posters in this thread have stated, I don't believe that the Geth are in the right but I believe that the Quarians are at fault more than the Geth are which is because:

1. The Quarians started it.
2. It could be argued that the Quarians killed some of the population which were Geth sympathiser (up to speculation how much and I would say it is in billions).
3. We've seen evidence of the Geth stopping their attacks as soon as the threat/resistance stops. On the other hand, the Quarians continued going to war although they knew that they couldn't win (ME3 Geth survival).
4. I believe that many have died AFTER the war because of immunity problems.
5. There have been many 'idiotic' Quarian leaders.
6. The Quarians blame the Geth entirely while the Geth take some of the blame.

So these and more I could say yes the Geth didn't attempt to destroy the Quarains, they have bought on their selves.

[Catamantaloedis]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War. On Tuchanka in ME2, Legion states that what happened to Tuchanka was "similar" (though Rannoch was not as severe). It is highly likely that the quarians ended up killing millions of their own by sacrificing entire cities with nuclear weapons to wipe out large concentrations of geth.

99% of the population is a staggering number however there are no details on how long the Morning War lasted, nor the exact manner in which it was fought. From what we can see in ME3, the beginning of it it was a long process of civil unrest and possibly civil war amongst the quarians while the geth were just wandering around confused and getting shot at, occasionally having the presence of mind to shoot back.

The geth were created to completley overtake their economy and make quarians able to compete with galactic powers like the asari and salarians, so when the geth were declared synthetics non grata the entire quarian economy likely collapsed overnight. Combine this with the quarians seeming desperate enough to kill their own people to get at the geth and you have an entire infrastructure reduced to charred ashes and radioactive dust.

As a result, it is likely that the vast majority of quarians died from disease, injury, radiation sickness and starvation rather than out-and-out warfare. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

This is logical. However, it doesn't explain how so few Quarians escaped. In a war of interstellar proportions, you can easily estimate that hundreds of millions if not billions would have attempted to escape, in private vessels or otherwise. The geth must have prevented this. I can accept that millions of them would have died in escape through various causes, but it is unreasonable to believe that over the course of a war of this great scale that only 17 million quarians could have survived, without genocide being involved.

[humes spork]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

This is logical. However, it doesn't explain how so few Quarians escaped. In a war of interstellar proportions, you can easily estimate that hundreds of millions if not billions would have attempted to escape, in private vessels or otherwise. The geth must have prevented this. I can accept that millions of them would have died in escape through various causes, but it is unreasonable to believe that over the course of a war of this great scale that only 17 million quarians could have survived, without genocide being involved.

For one thing, 17 million is the population of the Migrant Fleet as of 2183. That doesn't account for quarians who live outside the flotilla (of which there are some), nor historical numbers which is important to keep in mind given Tali's statements about population control within the flotilla. The quarians carefully control their numbers in accordance with the living space and available resources on the flotilla.

That number is not necessarily the number of quarians that fled Rannoch at the end of the Geth War.

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War. On Tuchanka in ME2, Legion states that what happened to Tuchanka was "similar" (though Rannoch was not as severe). It is highly likely that the quarians ended up killing millions of their own by sacrificing entire cities with nuclear weapons to wipe out large concentrations of geth.

99% of the population is a staggering number however there are no details on how long the Morning War lasted, nor the exact manner in which it was fought. From what we can see in ME3, the beginning of it it was a long process of civil unrest and possibly civil war amongst the quarians while the geth were just wandering around confused and getting shot at, occasionally having the presence of mind to shoot back.

The geth were created to completley overtake their economy and make quarians able to compete with galactic powers like the asari and salarians, so when the geth were declared synthetics non grata the entire quarian economy likely collapsed overnight. Combine this with the quarians seeming desperate enough to kill their own people to get at the geth and you have an entire infrastructure reduced to charred ashes and radioactive dust.

As a result, it is likely that the vast majority of quarians died from disease, injury, radiation sickness and starvation rather than out-and-out warfare. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

The Quarians did not use WMD's against one another. Tali says so on Tuchanka in ME2.

The Quarians, while wrong, didn't do anything that any other organic society would have done. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight, but if you listen to Tali in ME1, her arguments are quite compelling.

i think the real problem is that the writers at Bioware decided after ME1 that the Geth were good guys. There was nothing in ME1 after all that even remotely hinted at the Geth being peaceful.

Good post. 

Also good to know that they did not use WMD's against each other. Just makes the Geth's actions that much more prominent.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...
 People do not fight themselves to extinction, if they are not forced to do so.

They evidently would have, and they will in ME3 if you don't stop them.

[TheGreenAlloy]

111987 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War. On Tuchanka in ME2, Legion states that what happened to Tuchanka was "similar" (though Rannoch was not as severe). It is highly likely that the quarians ended up killing millions of their own by sacrificing entire cities with nuclear weapons to wipe out large concentrations of geth.

99% of the population is a staggering number however there are no details on how long the Morning War lasted, nor the exact manner in which it was fought. From what we can see in ME3, the beginning of it it was a long process of civil unrest and possibly civil war amongst the quarians while the geth were just wandering around confused and getting shot at, occasionally having the presence of mind to shoot back.

The geth were created to completley overtake their economy and make quarians able to compete with galactic powers like the asari and salarians, so when the geth were declared synthetics non grata the entire quarian economy likely collapsed overnight. Combine this with the quarians seeming desperate enough to kill their own people to get at the geth and you have an entire infrastructure reduced to charred ashes and radioactive dust.

As a result, it is likely that the vast majority of quarians died from disease, injury, radiation sickness and starvation rather than out-and-out warfare. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

The Quarians did not use WMD's against one another. Tali says so on Tuchanka in ME2.

The Quarians, while wrong, didn't do anything that any other organic society would have done. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight, but if you listen to Tali in ME1, her arguments are quite compelling.

i think the real problem is that the writers at Bioware decided after ME1 that the Geth were good guys. There was nothing in ME1 after all that even remotely hinted at the Geth being peaceful.

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

[HellbirdIV]

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

The quarians put their own worlds under martial law during the Morning War which would explain why no quarians escaped Rannoch or the colonies.

I'm unsure if the geth went on the offensive in space by assaulting quarian colonies, or if those colonies were simply overrun by their own "native" geth platforms. The latter is likely given the high reliance on geth for economy and infrastructure at the time.

111987 wrote...

The Quarians did not use WMD's against one another. Tali says so on Tuchanka in ME2.

Tali never mentions that the quarians killed their own either, and her bias is pretty clear. It might be that she simply doesn't know - propoganda is a powerful thing after all.

I find it unlikely that the quarians of the Migrant Fleet would teach their kids "And then we tried to murder our children as soon as they became self-aware enough to fear death, and also we killed everyone who tried to stop us :)"

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 01 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[justafan]

Hussain747715 wrote...

As many posters in this thread have stated, I don't believe that the Geth are in the right but I believe that the Quarians are at fault more than the Geth are which is because:

1. The Quarians started it.
2. It could be argued that the Quarians killed some of the population which were Geth sympathiser (up to speculation how much and I would say it is in billions).
3. We've seen evidence of the Geth stopping their attacks as soon as the threat/resistance stops. On the other hand, the Quarians continued going to war although they knew that they couldn't win (ME3 Geth survival).
4. I believe that many have died AFTER the war because of immunity problems.
5. There have been many 'idiotic' Quarian leaders.
6. The Quarians blame the Geth entirely while the Geth take some of the blame.

So these and more I could say yes the Geth didn't attempt to destroy the Quarains, they have bought on their selves.

1. Is true but I would argue it was in accordance with council law
2.  Billions is a little to high, maybe low millions at most, but I highly doubt there would be many geth sympathizers once the Geth went full genocide mode (Legion mentions they didn't know the value of organic life, which lets us assume they didn't differentiate much between noncombatants and military at a certain point).
3.  There is exactly one example of this (Two in peace, but they were simply returning the favor), and no evidence of the Geth giving quarter.  The geth allowed a retreat when they deemed the war over and decided not to pursue.
4.  Matriarch Aetheta laments that "you wake up one day and noone can remember what Quarians looked like under those masks"  meaning they had a good enough immune system that they were suitless throughout most of the galaxy until they lost their world.
5.  There has been ONE idiotic leader, Gerrel.  Xen is crazy but also genious, and Raan, Tali, and Korris are all rather reasonable (I like the Quarians more than the Council at least).
6.  No living Quarian was around during the war and must rely on innacurate history books (The same ones that call Sovereign a geth construct), Every geth remembers what happens with perfect detail.

[Catamantaloedis]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

This is logical. However, it doesn't explain how so few Quarians escaped. In a war of interstellar proportions, you can easily estimate that hundreds of millions if not billions would have attempted to escape, in private vessels or otherwise. The geth must have prevented this. I can accept that millions of them would have died in escape through various causes, but it is unreasonable to believe that over the course of a war of this great scale that only 17 million quarians could have survived, without genocide being involved.

For one thing, 17 million is the population of the Migrant Fleet as of 2183. That doesn't account for quarians who live outside the flotilla (of which there are some), nor historical numbers which is important to keep in mind given Tali's statements about population control within the flotilla. The quarians carefully control their numbers in accordance with the living space and available resources on the flotilla.

That number is not necessarily the number of quarians that fled Rannoch at the end of the Geth War.

Even if there are double the number of Quarians outisde of the Migrant fleet as are in it, which is very likely not so, then it would still probably be less than 1% of their population pre-war.  It is also very hard to believe that many more quarians survived the war and they reduced to that number.

You're line of thinking continues that the quarians could have reduced their numbers astronomically from something like 200 million to only 17 or so. That seems very implausible. 

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

[Catamantaloedis]

HellbirdIV wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

The quarians put their own worlds under martial law during the Morning War which would explain why no quarians escaped Rannoch or the colonies.

I'm unsure if the geth went on the offensive in space by assaulting quarian colonies, or if those colonies were simply overrun by their own "native" geth platforms. The latter is likely given the high reliance on geth for economy and infrastructure at the time.

111987 wrote...

The Quarians did not use WMD's against one another. Tali says so on Tuchanka in ME2.

Tali never mentions that the quarians killed their own either, and her bias is pretty clear. It might be that she simply doesn't know - propoganda is a powerful thing after all.

I find it unlikely that the quarians of the Migrant Fleet would teach their kids "And then we tried to murder our children as soon as they became self-aware enough to fear death, and also we killed everyone who tried to stop us :)"

How effective can martial law be when your government is nonexistent, you are receiving no more supplies of food, and practically everyone you know is dead or dying? Martial law might have been effective initially, but as a long term explanation, it fails completely.

[Raiil]

I think part of the quibble might be thematic versus practical, of objective versus subjective.

In the Morning War, the Geth wiped out the vast majority of Quarians, or so the numbers seem to say. Practically, objectively, by the book definition, the Geth may have attempted genocide. However- thematically, subjectively, the Geth were attempting only to defend themselves from a threat that came only from the Quarians. There is nothing to say that the Geth did it only because they're Quarians; once the threat ceased, so did the war. Can protecting yourself, no matter how viciously, against a singular threat be construed as genocidal, just because the source of the threat arose from one race?

Modifié par Valentia X, 01 mai 2012 - 11:52 .

[Mahrac]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

We go into the Geth Consensus. Also, synthetics don't understand the concept of deceit

@Valentia X expecially when that threat is genocide of your species

Modifié par Mahrac, 01 mai 2012 - 11:55 .

[Catamantaloedis]

Valentia X wrote...

I think part of the quibble might be thematic versus practical, of objective versus subjective.

In the Morning War, the Geth wiped out the vast majority of Quarians, or so the numbers seem to say. Practically, objectively, by the book definition, the Geth may have attempted genocide. However- thematically, subjectively, the Geth were attempting only to defend themselves from a threat that came only from the Quarians. There is nothing to say that the Geth did it only because they're Quarians; once the threat ceased, so did the war. Can protecting yourself, no matter how viciously, against a singular threat be construed as genocidal, just because the source of the threat arose from one race?

You don't have to oblitterate a people to neutralize them as a threat. Case in point: Krogan.

With the genophage, lack of organization, and fleet, the Krogan are not a threat. Yet their population remains in the billions.

But I bet most people would support the Geth, but oppose the genophage.

[BunBun299]

Actually, it makes tons of sense. We saw in the Geth Consensus that the Quarians themselves killed the Geth sympthizers in the early parts of the war. Anyone who would have suggested peace with the rebeling AI were already dead at the hands of the Quarians themselves. And after a long war, its easy to forget little details like that.

[111987]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

111987 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians destroyed much of Rannoch during the Morning War. On Tuchanka in ME2, Legion states that what happened to Tuchanka was "similar" (though Rannoch was not as severe). It is highly likely that the quarians ended up killing millions of their own by sacrificing entire cities with nuclear weapons to wipe out large concentrations of geth.

99% of the population is a staggering number however there are no details on how long the Morning War lasted, nor the exact manner in which it was fought. From what we can see in ME3, the beginning of it it was a long process of civil unrest and possibly civil war amongst the quarians while the geth were just wandering around confused and getting shot at, occasionally having the presence of mind to shoot back.

The geth were created to completley overtake their economy and make quarians able to compete with galactic powers like the asari and salarians, so when the geth were declared synthetics non grata the entire quarian economy likely collapsed overnight. Combine this with the quarians seeming desperate enough to kill their own people to get at the geth and you have an entire infrastructure reduced to charred ashes and radioactive dust.

As a result, it is likely that the vast majority of quarians died from disease, injury, radiation sickness and starvation rather than out-and-out warfare. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation for how the geth somehow managed to wipe out billions of quarians over the course of a few decades at most.

The Quarians did not use WMD's against one another. Tali says so on Tuchanka in ME2.

The Quarians, while wrong, didn't do anything that any other organic society would have done. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight, but if you listen to Tali in ME1, her arguments are quite compelling.

i think the real problem is that the writers at Bioware decided after ME1 that the Geth were good guys. There was nothing in ME1 after all that even remotely hinted at the Geth being peaceful.

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

Versus information from Legion, who is just as biased?

[FJVP]

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.