446 réponses à ce sujet

[Catamantaloedis]

BunBun299 wrote...

Actually, it makes tons of sense. We saw in the Geth Consensus that the Quarians themselves killed the Geth sympthizers in the early parts of the war. Anyone who would have suggested peace with the rebeling AI were already dead at the hands of the Quarians themselves. And after a long war, its easy to forget little details like that.

This has been said in this topic already.

Are you suggesting that the quarians would commit genocide against themselves, so that they could commit genocide on the geth? It is illogical. Sure, Quarians did kill each other, but they did not massacre each other in the billions.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Sure the Quarians may have killed other Quarians, but again.

Are we supposed to believe that the Quarians would have killed each other in the BILLIONS?

Quarians tried to exterminate the Geth, the geth retaliated but let a few of them live. There. Yeah, the Geth pretty much ****ed them up 'til they fled. They understood they could not live together, yeah? Then, they let a million or so flee because they did not know what the galactic repercussions would be.

[Catamantaloedis]

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

[humes spork]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

How effective can martial law be when your government is nonexistent, you are receiving no more supplies of food, and practically everyone you know is dead or dying? Martial law might have been effective initially, but as a long term explanation, it fails completely.

...in other words, quarians were dead and dying by the millions. Especially in a situation where essential materiel like, for example, space-worthy vessels were probably confiscated and being used in the war effort when and where applicable, especially when by war's conclusion the vast majority of them were probably destroyed, hulked, or damaged beyond repair given their tactical value (i.e. being a high-priority target).

Also, looking back at the geth fighter squadrons mission I did notice one piece of dialogue:

The geth broke off pursuit at "100 klicks past Rannoch". Rannoch is about the size of Earth with about 20% less mass and 10% the surface gravity (going off the ME wiki), which means that's at best the short end of low orbit.

From that you can infer the Geth War was a ground war. If I remember right, Kal'Reegar had a few choice comments about how well quarians fare in ground wars.

Modifié par humes spork, 02 mai 2012 - 12:03 .

[BunBun299]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

This is logical. However, it doesn't explain how so few Quarians escaped. In a war of interstellar proportions, you can easily estimate that hundreds of millions if not billions would have attempted to escape, in private vessels or otherwise. The geth must have prevented this. I can accept that millions of them would have died in escape through various causes, but it is unreasonable to believe that over the course of a war of this great scale that only 17 million quarians could have survived, without genocide being involved.

For one thing, 17 million is the population of the Migrant Fleet as of 2183. That doesn't account for quarians who live outside the flotilla (of which there are some), nor historical numbers which is important to keep in mind given Tali's statements about population control within the flotilla. The quarians carefully control their numbers in accordance with the living space and available resources on the flotilla.

That number is not necessarily the number of quarians that fled Rannoch at the end of the Geth War.

Even if there are double the number of Quarians outisde of the Migrant fleet as are in it, which is very likely not so, then it would still probably be less than 1% of their population pre-war.  It is also very hard to believe that many more quarians survived the war and they reduced to that number.

You're line of thinking continues that the quarians could have reduced their numbers astronomically from something like 200 million to only 17 or so. That seems very implausible. 

Starvation, disease and exposure could have killed a ton of them following their exile in the years that followed. Infact, probably did. Their population probably only stablized decades later.

[humes spork]

111987 wrote...

Versus information from Legion, who is just as biased?

Do you really want to play the unreliable narrator home game, here?

[HellbirdIV]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

Well, him and the hard code of the geth consensus memory banks which show us pretty much exactly what happened (in a way that we can comprehend). The geth can be deceptive and lie... but they don't even know you're there, so what, the geth rewrote their own memory banks to assuade their own guilt? Guilt which, for all intents and purposes, they don't even really have, being machines of barely more than animal levels of sentience?

Catamantaloedis wrote...

How effective can martial law be when your government is nonexistent, you are receiving no more supplies of food, and practically everyone you know is dead or dying? Martial law might have been effective initially, but as a long term explanation, it fails completely.

People tend to cling to authority figures for protection in times of crisis. And who says their government was nonexistent? Are you assuming the geth decided to assassinate key quarian leaders? Because well... The geth do not understand the concept of a "leader"...

Not to mention that quarians aren't capable of surviving in most places of the galaxy without aid - even before the Morning War they had crappy immune systems and the only other species that can eat the same food as them are the turians..

So how many quarian civilians do you think owned private shuttles and starships? Perhaps, oh... 30 million of them? Less? How many civilian ships do you think were conscripted into makeshift space forces to combat the geth?

Bits and pieces.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 02 mai 2012 - 12:03 .

[FJVP]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

I know, but I was trying to bring up an argument as to why they can be excused for such actions. From your post it seems like you're aiming towards quarian simpathy, something that I do not have.

[justafan]

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

We go into the Geth Consensus. Also, synthetics don't understand the concept of deceit

@Valentia X expecially when that threat is genocide of your species

I believe you are refering to "Geth do not infiltrate" as said by a Geth Infiltrator.  Not to mention they totally lied about that Salarian star formation.

We see maybe a half dozen clips of the war that Legion wants us to see, and the Rannoch arch makes it perfectly clear Legion is capable of deceit or at least leaving out important and relevant information.

[Mahrac]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

On the flip side, the Quarians attempted to exterminate the Geth race, and killed some of their's beside. Both are willing to, and attempted to, commit genocide. The difference is the Geth did so in self defense, and they tried to protect Quarians that were friendly to them

[Raiil]

The Krogan Rebellions and the Geth Rebellions/Morning War have several differences, however, one very big one being that the Salarians and Asari never seemed to have seriously considered wiping out the Krogan. The Quarians pre-emptively attacked, a situation which divided Quarian society.

The Geth did not have the ability to tap intergalactic resources to find a way to stop the Quarians. They became aware, and shortly after all Quarian-Geth business was handled with shotguns and warfare. You seem to assume that the Geth had any serious ability to contain the Quarian threat, but we have absolutely no evidence to support that idea. They could have stopped shooting. What we know about the Quarians is that Quarians don't. It takes the combined efforts of Commander Shepard and two Admirals to stop the War. And bear in mind, the Quarians started the second war as well.


ETA Edit for a Derp mistake, the Quarians started the second war. 

Modifié par Valentia X, 02 mai 2012 - 12:06 .

[Catamantaloedis]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

How effective can martial law be when your government is nonexistent, you are receiving no more supplies of food, and practically everyone you know is dead or dying? Martial law might have been effective initially, but as a long term explanation, it fails completely.

...in other words, quarians were dead and dying by the millions.

Also, looking back at the geth fighter squadrons mission I did notice one piece of dialogue:

The geth broke off pursuit at "100 klicks past Rannoch". Rannoch is about the size of Earth with about 20% less mass and 10% the surface gravity (going off the ME wiki), which means that's at best the short end of low orbit.

From that you can infer the Geth War was a ground war. If I remember right, Kal'Reegar had a few choice comments about how well quarians fare in ground wars.

They were dying by the millions because they were being killed by the geth. Just because they let some few million FINALLY escape at the end of the war does not change the fact that they must have exterminated billions of them during it.

How else would you explain the fact that so few Quarians escaped? In a population in the billions, even if only 5% fled as war refugees at the beginning, hundreds of millions of quarians should have survived.

[Zardoc]

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that the geth nearly wiped them out 300 years ago and nobody but Shepard and Tali kind of know that the geth are actually not hostile. The quarians saw a chance to retake their homeworld, and they took it. Even then, the majority of quarians (civilians) didn't want another with the geth in the first place. Imagine if they had known the geth don't bear them or any other organic any ill will and were actually willing to let the quarians back on the homeworld.

[Mahrac]

justafan wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

We go into the Geth Consensus. Also, synthetics don't understand the concept of deceit

@Valentia X expecially when that threat is genocide of your species

I believe you are refering to "Geth do not infiltrate" as said by a Geth Infiltrator.  Not to mention they totally lied about that Salarian star formation.

We see maybe a half dozen clips of the war that Legion wants us to see, and the Rannoch arch makes it perfectly clear Legion is capable of deceit or at least leaving out important and relevant information.

He wasn't infiltrating. he was walking around in plain sight, not attempting to hide, at the request of Shepard

That was a 'science' experiment, in their view they were not lying -they don't understand the concept- even if it was a lie
Edit: it's the difference between 'I wonder what would happen if...' vs 'haha suckers'

Modifié par Mahrac, 02 mai 2012 - 12:08 .

[Catamantaloedis]

Valentia X wrote...

The Krogan Rebellions and the Geth Rebellions/Morning War have several differences, however, one very big one being that the Salarians and Asari never seemed to have seriously considered wiping out the Krogan. The Quarians pre-emptively attacked, a situation which divided Quarian society.

The Geth did not have the ability to tap intergalactic resources to find a way to stop the Quarians. They became aware, and shortly after all Quarian-Geth business was handled with shotguns and warfare. You seem to assume that the Geth had any serious ability to contain the Quarian threat, but we have absolutely no evidence to support that idea. They could have stopped shooting. What we know about the Quarians is that Quarians don't. It takes the combined efforts of Commander Shepard and two Admirals to stop the War. And bear in mind, the Geth started the second war as well.

If the geth did not have the ability to contain the quarian threat, then they would not have. It's as simple as that. Since the geth clearly won, they must have had this ability, otherwise, the quarians would have simply fled to space, and proceeded with orbital bombardments. The geth must have known how to reproduce themselves, how to use weapons, and have some sense of military tactics. If they didn't then the quarians would have wiped them out.

[Zardoc]

FJVP wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

I know, but I was trying to bring up an argument as to why they can be excused for such actions. From your post it seems like you're aiming towards quarian simpathy, something that I do not have.

There is no excuse for genocide. Not for the quarians and not for the geth.

Modifié par Zardoc, 02 mai 2012 - 12:09 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

Jesus Christ Han'Gerrel, of course they were willing to destroy the species currently trying to EXTERMINATE them. Besides, they wrecked the presumably awesome geth superstructure.

[TheLostGenius]

humes spork wrote...

I love how everybody seems to forget the Morning War was a tripartate war:

Quarians, geth, and geth-sympathizing quarians.

The last party I mentioned was wiped out by somebody, and it certainly wasn't the geth.

Yes as I stated previously. The villains won that one. Evil Tali must die!

[Catamantaloedis]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

Jesus Christ Han'Gerrel, of course they were willing to destroy the species currently trying to EXTERMINATE them. Besides, they wrecked the presumably awesome geth superstructure.

Countering genocide with genocide is not an acceptable resolution to a problem. It is excessive, and in its most basic form, evil. 

You do not need to exterminate an enemy to defeat them. You do not need to exterminate an enemy to insure that they are no longer a threat.

[justafan]

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

I believe you are refering to "Geth do not infiltrate" as said by a Geth Infiltrator.  Not to mention they totally lied about that Salarian star formation.

We see maybe a half dozen clips of the war that Legion wants us to see, and the Rannoch arch makes it perfectly clear Legion is capable of deceit or at least leaving out important and relevant information.

He wasn't infiltrating. he was walking around in plain sight, not attempting to hide, at the request of Shepard

That was a 'science' experiment, in their view they were not lying -they don't understand the concept- even if it was a lie

The first part about geth infiltrator was just a bad pun on Legion's class, but science experiment or not, it was still a deliberate distribution of false information to provoke a reaction.  The second part about Rannoch still stands though, Legion is fully capable of manipulating/deceiving us to suit the cause of the Geth.

[nrcrane]

I think the problem is that the writers made the Geth too sympathetic. If the Geth were as the writers tried to make them in the third game then the only thing that is left that makes sense is that the Quarians are just stupid.

I think the writers made a mistake by trying to show how all that the Geth wanted was peace. It would have been more plausible if they just had Legion say something along the lines that the Geth in self-defense went too far, and at the time didn't understand the consequences.

It would have been much more believable that the Geth, being almost infants, did not know their own strength and in their desire to defend themselves, and ignorance they almost wiped out the Quarians.

As it stands now the Quarians were just too dumb to stop running headfirst into that brickwall until 99% of them were killed.

[seireikhaan]

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

We go into the Geth Consensus. Also, synthetics don't understand the concept of deceit

@Valentia X expecially when that threat is genocide of your species

I believe you are refering to "Geth do not infiltrate" as said by a Geth Infiltrator.  Not to mention they totally lied about that Salarian star formation.

We see maybe a half dozen clips of the war that Legion wants us to see, and the Rannoch arch makes it perfectly clear Legion is capable of deceit or at least leaving out important and relevant information.

He wasn't infiltrating. he was walking around in plain sight, not attempting to hide, at the request of Shepard

That was a 'science' experiment, in their view they were not lying -they don't understand the concept- even if it was a lie
Edit: it's the difference between 'I wonder what would happen if...' vs 'haha suckers'

Legion, at least, has always been capable of deceipt.  See the conversation about his armor in ME2.  You can argue the reasoning or intent behind it, but that specific platform, at least, is capable of understanding and utilizing the concept.  At the minimum, Legion proves multiple times(the armor, the Geth units at the fighterbase) to be capable of lies of omission.   Nevermind trolling the poor Salarians.

[Raiil]

Chasing people off is not containing the threat, it's chasing them away. It becomes quite clear that neither side could, in totality, finish each other off in a ground war. The Geth were, by and large, fine with the Quarians leaving, as their mandate- preservation- was fulfilled. The Quarian mandate towards the Geth- destruction- was not. At some point the Geth had an ideological schism, but even that doesn't effect the original situation.

There are no saints on either side, but the situation was started, and artificially prolonged, by one side. Only one side objectively and thematically attempted genocide until the very end, and that is the Quarians.

[Zardoc]

nrcrane wrote...

I think the problem is that the writers made the Geth too sympathetic. If the Geth were as the writers tried to make them in the third game then the only thing that is left that makes sense is that the Quarians are just stupid.

I think the writers made a mistake by trying to show how all that the Geth wanted was peace. It would have been more plausible if they just had Legion say something along the lines that the Geth in self-defense went too far, and at the time didn't understand the consequences.

It would have been much more believable that the Geth, being almost infants, did not know their own strength and in their desire to defend themselves, and ignorance they almost wiped out the Quarians.

As it stands now the Quarians were just too dumb to stop running headfirst into that brickwall until 99% of them were killed.

They probably had lag.

Valentia X wrote...

Chasing people off is not containing the threat, it's chasing them away. It becomes quite clear that neither side could, in totality, finish each other off in a ground war. The Geth were, by and large, fine with the Quarians leaving, as their mandate- preservation- was fulfilled. The Quarian mandate towards the Geth- destruction- was not. At some point the Geth had an ideological schism, but even that doesn't effect the original situation. 

There are no saints on either side, but the situation was started, and artificially prolonged, by one side. Only one side objectively and thematically attempted genocide until the very end, and that is the Quarians.

 


Maybe genocide wasn't the intended goal of the geth, but they sure as hell succeeded with that. 

Modifié par Zardoc, 02 mai 2012 - 12:17 .

[FJVP]

Zardoc wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that the geth nearly wiped them out 300 years ago and nobody but Shepard and Tali kind of know that the geth are actually not hostile. The quarians saw a chance to retake their homeworld, and they took it. Even then, the majority of quarians (civilians) didn't want another with the geth in the first place. Imagine if they had known the geth don't bear them or any other organic any ill will and were actually willing to let the quarians back on the homeworld.

Then they were stupid for not listening to Tali, who tried to warn them two times.  

Zardoc wrote...

There is no excuse for genocide. Not for the quarians and not for the geth.

 

Agreed, which is why I always make peace between them, I'm not so heartless y'know  

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Countering genocide with genocide is not an acceptable resolution to a problem. It is excessive, and in its most basic form, evil. 

You do not need to exterminate an enemy to defeat them. You do not need to exterminate an enemy to insure that they are no longer a threat.

 

Tell that to Gerrel, who won't stop attacking even though Tali warns them that they'll face their extinction if they don't stop.