446 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahrac]

TheLostGenius wrote...

humes spork wrote...

I love how everybody seems to forget the Morning War was a tripartate war:

Quarians, geth, and geth-sympathizing quarians.

The last party I mentioned was wiped out by somebody, and it certainly wasn't the geth.

Yes as I stated previously. The villains won that one. Evil Tali must die!

Sins of the Father. may as well say most of the population of Earth should be killed.

[Catamantaloedis]

nrcrane wrote...

I think the problem is that the writers made the Geth too sympathetic. If the Geth were as the writers tried to make them in the third game then the only thing that is left that makes sense is that the Quarians are just stupid.

I think the writers made a mistake by trying to show how all that the Geth wanted was peace. It would have been more plausible if they just had Legion say something along the lines that the Geth in self-defense went too far, and at the time didn't understand the consequences.

It would have been much more believable that the Geth, being almost infants, did not know their own strength and in their desire to defend themselves, and ignorance they almost wiped out the Quarians.

As it stands now the Quarians were just too dumb to stop running headfirst into that brickwall until 99% of them were killed.

That would be a reasonable, and satisfactory alternate to the story we have in the game.

But unfortunately, it is not the one which we have been given, and people seem intent on putting the Geth on this pedestal, even though they succeeded  in the same task where the Quarians failed.

[Catamantaloedis]

Valentia X wrote...

Chasing people off is not containing the threat, it's chasing them away. It becomes quite clear that neither side could, in totality, finish each other off in a ground war. The Geth were, by and large, fine with the Quarians leaving, as their mandate- preservation- was fulfilled. The Quarian mandate towards the Geth- destruction- was not. At some point the Geth had an ideological schism, but even that doesn't effect the original situation.

There are no saints on either side, but the situation was started, and artificially prolonged, by one side. Only one side objectively and thematically attempted genocide until the very end, and that is the Quarians.

The fact alone that less than 1% of the Quarians survived the war is the only proof you need to know that the Geth won the ground war.

[VirtualSoldier27]

The Collectors were being used by the Reapers, should there violence against the galaxy have been forgiven,did Shepard have the right to exterminate them,what if there was away to turn them away from reaper influence just like the geth ?

food for thought

[Zardoc]

FJVP wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that the geth nearly wiped them out 300 years ago and nobody but Shepard and Tali kind of know that the geth are actually not hostile. The quarians saw a chance to retake their homeworld, and they took it. Even then, the majority of quarians (civilians) didn't want another with the geth in the first place. Imagine if they had known the geth don't bear them or any other organic any ill will and were actually willing to let the quarians back on the homeworld.

Then they were stupid for not listening to Tali, who tried to warn them two times.  

Yeah, I don't really get why they didn't. They prolly just didn't believe her, which is stupid.

[incinerator950]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

The Collectors were being used by the Reapers, should there violence against the galaxy have been forgiven,did Shepard have the right to exterminate them,what if there was away to turn them away from reaper influence just like the geth ?

food for thought

Right is determined by the Victor, not by ethics of someone pointing their nose through a looking glass.

You had to kill them, you were not presented any other alternative besides failing.

[humes spork]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

How else would you explain the fact that so few Quarians escaped? In a population in the billions, even if only 5% fled as war refugees at the beginning, hundreds of millions of quarians should have survived.

You do not know how many quarians escaped in the first place.

You do not know how many died to attrition or collateral damage as a result of the war.

You do not know how many died after their exile.

You do not know how many were killed by quarians.

You do not know what happened to quarians left behind, as all survivors could not possibly have fled.

...and rather than just admit you do not and based upon the information given in the context of the games, codex, and extended universe, cannot know, stubbornly insist "geth did it" when you cannot support that allegation. And in the face of numerous arguments based upon reason, evidence, and a combination of both, posited to you regarding this exact topic, continue to say nothing but "geth did it" based upon the vague assumption a population cannot possibly bottleneck in a war without genocide. And to do it, you keep committing ecological fallacies and hasty generalizations rather than answering the very counterarguments levied against you.

Obviously, you're so set in your conclusion that you refuse to reason and further argumentation is a waste of time. Unless there's something new in this conversation that actually provides for a reasonable discussion, I'm done here.

Napoleon invaded Russia with (depending on source) half a million men and retreated with less than a hundred thousand. Russians must've killed at least 400,000 men. There's no other reasonable way to explain it, only combat losses could possibly have led to over an 80% casualty rate, am I right? Russians did it.

Modifié par humes spork, 02 mai 2012 - 12:27 .

[justafan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

Well, him and the hard code of the geth consensus memory banks which show us pretty much exactly what happened (in a way that we can comprehend). The geth can be deceptive and lie... but they don't even know you're there, so what, the geth rewrote their own memory banks to assuade their own guilt? Guilt which, for all intents and purposes, they don't even really have, being machines of barely more than animal levels of sentience?

Go watch any propaganda video pre-digital era.  Videos can easily be viewed out of context for any desired result.  The mere fact that we don't see Quarian faces means these videos are being manipulated in some way.

Also, Legion knows you're in there, is in there with you, and it is heavily implied he is showing you HIS memories.  The only way for this to happen is if one of Legion's programs is currently hostile, or that he is showing you his memories, and thus can determine what Shepard sees.

[justafan]

Zardoc wrote...

FJVP wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that the geth nearly wiped them out 300 years ago and nobody but Shepard and Tali kind of know that the geth are actually not hostile. The quarians saw a chance to retake their homeworld, and they took it. Even then, the majority of quarians (civilians) didn't want another with the geth in the first place. Imagine if they had known the geth don't bear them or any other organic any ill will and were actually willing to let the quarians back on the homeworld.

Then they were stupid for not listening to Tali, who tried to warn them two times.  

Yeah, I don't really get why they didn't. They prolly just didn't believe her, which is stupid.

Cough* Cerberus Ties *Cough

[Mahrac]

seireikhaan wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Of course not. Your only source is basically the sweet, biased Tali.

And our only source on the Geth is cute, cosplaying, biased Legion.

We go into the Geth Consensus. Also, synthetics don't understand the concept of deceit

@Valentia X expecially when that threat is genocide of your species

I believe you are refering to "Geth do not infiltrate" as said by a Geth Infiltrator.  Not to mention they totally lied about that Salarian star formation.

We see maybe a half dozen clips of the war that Legion wants us to see, and the Rannoch arch makes it perfectly clear Legion is capable of deceit or at least leaving out important and relevant information.

He wasn't infiltrating. he was walking around in plain sight, not attempting to hide, at the request of Shepard

That was a 'science' experiment, in their view they were not lying -they don't understand the concept- even if it was a lie
Edit: it's the difference between 'I wonder what would happen if...' vs 'haha suckers'

Legion, at least, has always been capable of deceipt.  See the conversation about his armor in ME2.  You can argue the reasoning or intent behind it, but that specific platform, at least, is capable of understanding and utilizing the concept.  At the minimum, Legion proves multiple times(the armor, the Geth units at the fighterbase) to be capable of lies of omission.   Nevermind trolling the poor Salarians.

While Legion, who can break consensus, can lie by omission, the consensus cannot.
The geth don't see the star formation as lying. Because they can look up eveything, very quickly, they only see trying to hide facts as lying, and consensus does not allow them to hide facts

[CamlTowPetttingZoo]

The Geth reacted to protect themselves and let the Quarians go after they finally stopped fighting.
Did they kill a lot of Quarians, yes. Could they have killed all the Quarians, probably.
Quarians come back and start another war putting civilians at risk trying to wipe out the Geth again.
Geth react by siding with the reapers because they are severely threatened again.
Quarians are willing to have themselves wiped out again because they don't stop to think about the consequences of their actions. Sounds like they need to take some pointers from their creations.

[DJBare]

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

[Jog0907]

humes spork wrote...

I love how everybody seems to forget the Morning War was a tripartate war:

Quarians, geth, and geth-sympathizing quarians.

The last party I mentioned was wiped out by somebody, and it certainly wasn't the geth.

Its only a three way war if all three sides are hostile to each other, it was quarian state vs geth with some groups of quarians who opposed the termination

[VirtualSoldier27]

incinerator950 wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

The Collectors were being used by the Reapers, should there violence against the galaxy have been forgiven,did Shepard have the right to exterminate them,what if there was away to turn them away from reaper influence just like the geth ?

food for thought

Right is determined by the Victor, not by ethics of someone pointing their nose through a looking glass.

You had to kill them, you were not presented any other alternative besides failing.

maybe thats what was going through the quarians mind,maybe they felt there was no other option to sustain there survival,than to destroy the geth

[Catamantaloedis]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

How else would you explain the fact that so few Quarians escaped? In a population in the billions, even if only 5% fled as war refugees at the beginning, hundreds of millions of quarians should have survived.

You do not know how many quarians escaped in the first place.

You do not know how many died to attrition or collateral damage as a result of the war.

You do not know how many died after their exile.

You do not know how many were killed by quarians.

You do not know what happened to quarians left behind, as all survivors could not possibly have fled.

...and rather than just admit you do not and based upon the information given in the context of the games, codex, and extended universe, cannot know, stubbornly insist "geth did it" when you cannot support that allegation. And in the face of numerous arguments based upon reason, evidence, and a combination of both, posited to you regarding this exact topic, continue to say nothing but "geth did it" based upon the vague assumption a population cannot possibly bottleneck in a war without genocide.

Napoleon invaded Russia with (depending on source) half a million men and retreated with less than a hundred thousand. Russians must've killed at least 400,000 men. There's no other reasonable way to explain it, only combat losses could possibly have led to over an 80% casualty rate, am I right? Russians did it.

Napoleon lived in a pre-space flight, relatively recently industrialized society. Napoleon lost a large number of his men. But France and its allies did not lose 80% of their total population. And additionally the Russians did play a large role in the deaths of his men because of their scorched earth policy which starved them and their pursuit of the retreating French soldiers. The winter alone, was not the only factor. That comparison does not work.

Of course I do not know the exact number of quarians and the circumstances of all of their deaths. I do know however, that by war's end, the quarians presence was cleansed from their homeworld, their colonies, and only a few million of them  remain  for the entire race. If you want to believe that the quarians exterminated themselves by the billions, or were somehow not able to dispearse across a huge galaxy such that there would at least be a couple hundred million of them left, so be it.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[Olueq]

mauro2222 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The Quarians attacked a baby equipped with a machinegun... the little baby wants to survive, so the little baby needs to supress this threath. During the Morning War the Geth were just infants, they did not comprehend the consequences of killing a whole species, for them, the Quarians went from being the Creators to be the boogeyman.

All fine and well. 

But this does not change the fact that the Geth essentially exterminated the Quarians as a race. Which so many seem to blame on the Quarians themselves, even though it makes no logical sense.

The Geth are not less responsable than the Quarians. Legion says so, they feel sorry for such a loss. The Geth and the Quarians didn't knew where to stop. But as we can see in ME3, the Quarians are to ones with more fault on this matter, the Geth offered peace, they attacked again.

No, they didnt.

[justafan]

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

Not necessarily true, nogatiations are never mentioned, I believe the quote goes along the lines "every time the creators thought they had the advantage, they attacked".

[knightnblu]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

Even Japan, arguably the most fanatic nation in WWII, surrendered to occupation by the United States, after facing the insurmountable strength of the nuclear weapons and the combined armies of the Soviet Union and the United States. It lost at most 4% of its population in war.

By comparison, the Quarians lost 99% of their population, but they would not have tried to make peace?

Even Hitler, was less successful in his genocide of the Jews, with an astonishing 67% of them in Europe killed, than were the geth in destroying the Quarians.

In order to achieve peace, all combatants must wish for it. The Geth are machine intelligences and not organic ones and therefore they do not possess emotions one would expect from organics. The Quarians made the first move and attempted to kill them all en masse across all fronts. They even killed and injured Quarians who objected to the kill order. That tells the Geth that the Quarians are serious about their extermination.
 
It is also likely that the Quarians would have made peace initiatives designed at taking the Geth off guard in order to gain the upper hand. The Geth likely fell for this tactic a time or two and then disregarded it because there was no confidence that the Quarians were sincere. That would have been the fatal mistake that resulted in the deaths of billions. From that point forward, the Geth who had no concept of deceit learned to their detriment that it was a powerful weapon that threatened their existence.
 
As alien races were also killed, it is not unreasonable to assume that they came under fire as hostiles because they either took upon themselves the role of a hostile or participated in the feigned peace initiatives or both and the Geth decided that all organics are hostile by default. That likely was when they became serious about cleaning house.
 
I am sure that the Quarians did indeed attempt several times to broker a peace, but since they had squandered the last trust between themselves and the Geth it was a vain effort. The fight then transitioned from win/lose to a fight to the death. It would be a mistake to compare the machine mind of the Geth to that of an organic. They were newborns to the world and didn't understand why they were being terminated or why the Quarians, who had created them, wished to destroy them all.
 
The Geth reaction to their creators is completely understandable. When the Quarians were forced to flee or perish, they fled and the Geth did not pursue. There were two reasons for this decision. First, the threat to Geth survival departed with the surviving Quarians and secondly, they realized that they could not foresee the harm that would come from exterminating an organic species.
 
Therefore, I would chalk up the billions slain in the Morning War not as genocide, but the result of organic missteps that led to the Quarian slaughter. In many ways, accusing the Geth of genocide is like accusing a 5 year old with a magnifying glass of the genocide of ants. They were a newborn intelligence that looked at the world without emotions or a complete understanding of it and their place within it.
 
In short, it was a tragedy of errors that led to the deaths of billions.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

Jesus Christ Han'Gerrel, of course they were willing to destroy the species currently trying to EXTERMINATE them. Besides, they wrecked the presumably awesome geth superstructure.

Countering genocide with genocide is not an acceptable resolution to a problem. It is excessive, and in its most basic form, evil. 

You do not need to exterminate an enemy to defeat them. You do not need to exterminate an enemy to insure that they are no longer a threat.

Armchair morality with the Reapers knocking on the door. I love it. 

Look, the Reapers were coming. The Geth knew this. The Geth mostly lived on Rannoch. The Geth were building a superstructure. Reapers come to the galaxy. Quarians decide it's time to reclaim their world with force instead of trying diplomaty. Okay then. Quarians smash Geth superstructure. Geth are weakened. Quarians will exterminate the Geth. But wait! Reapers show up and save the Geth. Thanks, Quarians, now the Geth are against us and the Reapers are stronger. Oh well. Quarians are relentless. They keep pushing. Shepard frees Legion. Legion disables the Geth dreadnought with Shep and himself on it as a gesture of peace. Quarians blow it up. 


See? The Quarians acted horribly. Han'Gerrel will attack the Geth to extinction if you let him, even with the Reapers threatening, oh I don't know, all galactic society. 

[Olueq]

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

he never said that. theres no evidence that the geth tried to communicate witht hem. Otherwise why not just sent them an email?

[Zardoc]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

How else would you explain the fact that so few Quarians escaped? In a population in the billions, even if only 5% fled as war refugees at the beginning, hundreds of millions of quarians should have survived.

You do not know how many quarians escaped in the first place.

You do not know how many died to attrition or collateral damage as a result of the war.

You do not know how many died after their exile.

You do not know how many were killed by quarians.

You do not know what happened to quarians left behind, as all survivors could not possibly have fled.

Those who died due to the exile are on the head of the geth, since they drove them out in the first place.
Also, we know that the number of people living on the flotilla hasn't changed since the end of the Morning War, due to laws to keep the population in check. It's also more than unlikely that the quarians just killed billions of their own in this war. Sure, they started to use lethal force on those who sided with the geth towards the end, but if billions had sided with the geth, there would've been more than enough geth sympathizers left on Rannoch after the quarians were driven out. But there weren't.
And quarians left behind? Well, the only logical explanation would be that they were killed by the geth or send away on their own (with low chances of survival), seeing how there are no quarians on Rannoch anymore in the time of the game.

The simple fact is, the geth committed genocide against the quarians. There is no discussing that. 

[Catamantaloedis]

knightnblu wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

Even Japan, arguably the most fanatic nation in WWII, surrendered to occupation by the United States, after facing the insurmountable strength of the nuclear weapons and the combined armies of the Soviet Union and the United States. It lost at most 4% of its population in war.

By comparison, the Quarians lost 99% of their population, but they would not have tried to make peace?

Even Hitler, was less successful in his genocide of the Jews, with an astonishing 67% of them in Europe killed, than were the geth in destroying the Quarians.

In order to achieve peace, all combatants must wish for it. The Geth are machine intelligences and not organic ones and therefore they do not possess emotions one would expect from organics. The Quarians made the first move and attempted to kill them all en masse across all fronts. They even killed and injured Quarians who objected to the kill order. That tells the Geth that the Quarians are serious about their extermination.
 
It is also likely that the Quarians would have made peace initiatives designed at taking the Geth off guard in order to gain the upper hand. The Geth likely fell for this tactic a time or two and then disregarded it because there was no confidence that the Quarians were sincere. That would have been the fatal mistake that resulted in the deaths of billions. From that point forward, the Geth who had no concept of deceit learned to their detriment that it was a powerful weapon that threatened their existence.
 
As alien races were also killed, it is not unreasonable to assume that they came under fire as hostiles because they either took upon themselves the role of a hostile or participated in the feigned peace initiatives or both and the Geth decided that all organics are hostile by default. That likely was when they became serious about cleaning house.
 
I am sure that the Quarians did indeed attempt several times to broker a peace, but since they had squandered the last trust between themselves and the Geth it was a vain effort. The fight then transitioned from win/lose to a fight to the death. It would be a mistake to compare the machine mind of the Geth to that of an organic. They were newborns to the world and didn't understand why they were being terminated or why the Quarians, who had created them, wished to destroy them all.
 
The Geth reaction to their creators is completely understandable. When the Quarians were forced to flee or perish, they fled and the Geth did not pursue. There were two reasons for this decision. First, the threat to Geth survival departed with the surviving Quarians and secondly, they realized that they could not foresee the harm that would come from exterminating an organic species.
 
Therefore, I would chalk up the billions slain in the Morning War not as genocide, but the result of organic missteps that led to the Quarian slaughter. In many ways, accusing the Geth of genocide is like accusing a 5 year old with a magnifying glass of the genocide of ants. They were a newborn intelligence that looked at the world without emotions or a complete understanding of it and their place within it.
 
In short, it was a tragedy of errors that led to the deaths of billions.

This is even more speculative than I am. And it still does not explain the reason for so few Quarians surviving. Why are there no war refugees? They should have numbered in the hundreds of millions at the very outset of war.

[Raiil]

(sorry for not quoting, responding on my phone and can't handle large quote blocks)

The fact that the Quarians turned tail and fled only means that they turned tail and fled. It could have come to an impasse, both sides could have nuked themselves out of existence, we can't say for certainty. You are posing your beliefs as ironclad fact when they can't be backed up with in-game lore and citations, just suppositions based mostly on your personal perception and beliefs.