446 réponses à ce sujet

[Dot.Shadow]

Unfortunately Bioware chose to railroad people on a Geth loving train. Most people thus fail to acknowledge the OPs points.

Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

[justafan]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

This is even more speculative than I am. And it still does not explain the reason for so few Quarians surviving. Why are there no war refugees? They should have numbered in the hundreds of millions at the very outset of war.

Knowing the Council, they probably refused the Quarians entry and left them to die.

[Jog0907]

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

"Treating every species like ones' own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphicism."

geth can't be compared to children they are their own thing,

[sistersafetypin]

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

Also, you have to account for Quarian Geth sympathisers that were killed by other Quarians. In other news, people die during war times

edit

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 02 mai 2012 - 12:42 .

[Zardoc]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

Jesus Christ Han'Gerrel, of course they were willing to destroy the species currently trying to EXTERMINATE them. Besides, they wrecked the presumably awesome geth superstructure.

Countering genocide with genocide is not an acceptable resolution to a problem. It is excessive, and in its most basic form, evil. 

You do not need to exterminate an enemy to defeat them. You do not need to exterminate an enemy to insure that they are no longer a threat.

Armchair morality with the Reapers knocking on the door. I love it. 

Look, the Reapers were coming. The Geth knew this. The Geth mostly lived on Rannoch. The Geth were building a superstructure. Reapers come to the galaxy. Quarians decide it's time to reclaim their world with force instead of trying diplomaty. Okay then. Quarians smash Geth superstructure. Geth are weakened. Quarians will exterminate the Geth. But wait! Reapers show up and save the Geth. Thanks, Quarians, now the Geth are against us and the Reapers are stronger. Oh well. Quarians are relentless. They keep pushing. Shepard frees Legion. Legion disables the Geth dreadnought with Shep and himself on it as a gesture of peace. Quarians blow it up. 


See? The Quarians acted horribly. Han'Gerrel will attack the Geth to extinction if you let him, even with the Reapers threatening, oh I don't know, all galactic society. 

Seeing how they had only the knowledge of what the geth had done to their race (genocide and taking their homeworld) and absolutely no knowledge or proof that the geth were not hostile or not already siding with the Reapers (they actually have more proof for that than the geth being peaceful), how is that in any way unreasonable or illogical?

sistersafetypin wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded. 

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

Also, you have to account for Quarian Geth sympathisers that were killed by other Quarians. In other news, people die during war times

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

 

You can't know that. ****'s killed plenty of their own people for not agreeing with them. Now I'm not calling the Quarians ****'s, I'm saying that governments would kill millions of their own people during times of war for not agreeing with them

 



Those "plenty" were still a small percentage of the population. If billions of quarians had sided with the geth, there would be 2 kinds of quarians nowadays, those on Rannoch and those in exile. There are no quarians on Rannoch. There was no big schism in the quarian populace. There were sympathizers, but they were always a small minority.

Modifié par Zardoc, 02 mai 2012 - 12:45 .

[Catamantaloedis]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

Also, you have to account for Quarian Geth sympathisers that were killed by other Quarians. In other news, people die during war times

This has been stated multiple times in this topic. Of course, some Quarians killed other Quarians, but it is unreasonable to conclude that they killed each other in the billions, let alone the millions.

And as someone else stated, if there were billions of Geth sympathizers who would therefore have won the war, why are there none left on Rannoch? Surely, the Geth would have allowed their allies to remain on the homeworld. Their absence is most telling.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[sistersafetypin]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

You can't know that. Na zi's killed plenty of their own people for not agreeing with them. Now I'm not calling the Quarians Na zis, I'm saying that governments would kill millions of their own people during times of war for not agreeing with them.

[sidenote: why is na zi censored? Are we not adults capable of having conversations that reference historical facts?]

[VirtualSoldier27]

if only Han Garrel knew that Shepard would wipe them all out anyway,and they could take back there home planet without firing a single shot, oh well, hindsight is 20/20

[sistersafetypin]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

Also, you have to account for Quarian Geth sympathisers that were killed by other Quarians. In other news, people die during war times

This has been stated multiple times in this topic. Of course, some Quarians killed other Quarians, but it is unreasonable to conclude that they killed each other in the billions, let alone the millions.

And as someone else stated, if there were billions of Geth sympathizers who would therefore have won the war, why are there none left on Rannoch? Surely, the Geth would have allowed their allies to remain on the homeworld.

We also do not know whether there are any Quarians still on Rannoch. We know the fleet isn't there, but that's it

[Catamantaloedis]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Unfortunately Bioware chose to railroad people on a Geth loving train. Most people thus fail to acknowledge the OPs points.

Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

No one thus far, has addressed my point that with all of their resources lost, the Quarians would be unable to fight the Geth at all....

That alone, is very significant.

[Catamantaloedis]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

Also, you have to account for Quarian Geth sympathisers that were killed by other Quarians. In other news, people die during war times

This has been stated multiple times in this topic. Of course, some Quarians killed other Quarians, but it is unreasonable to conclude that they killed each other in the billions, let alone the millions.

And as someone else stated, if there were billions of Geth sympathizers who would therefore have won the war, why are there none left on Rannoch? Surely, the Geth would have allowed their allies to remain on the homeworld.

We also do not know whether there are any Quarians still on Rannoch. We know the fleet isn't there, but that's it

I don't want to be rude, but I have to ask....Is this a joke?

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 12:45 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

Dot.Shadow wrote...
Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

Bull**** speculations.

The quarians would and will exterminate the Geth if you let them. The geth let them off the hook.

[incinerator950]

Sadly this finally just hit me. People are debating or arguing if the Quarians or Geth were justified in the Morning War.

Yet you have three outcomes that distinctly set the tone for correction, with one being a Peace difference that can outlast the ending. Why are you still talking about it?

[Zardoc]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Dot.Shadow wrote...
Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

Bull**** speculations.

The quarians would and will exterminate the Geth if you let them. The geth let them off the hook.

How does this relate to what he said?

[Catamantaloedis]

incinerator950 wrote...

Sadly this finally just hit me. People are debating or arguing if the Quarians or Geth were justified in the Morning War.

Yet you have three outcomes that distinctly set the tone for correction, with one being a Peace difference that can outlast the ending. Why are you still talking about it?

I've never used the words "right" or "justified". I'm simply trying to get people to admit that the Geth exterminated the Quarians, and very few seem to be willing to do so, probably because they've been led to believe that the Geth are the "good guys".

[TheGreenAlloy]

Zardoc wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

FJVP wrote...

The geth were also almost sent back to being primitive software after they got attacked by the quarians in ME3, even though they had made no hostile activities towards them. They simply wished to be left alone to prepare against the reapers, yet the quarians attacked them when they though they had the upper hand, forcing the geth to ally with the reapers and when they start to get overwhelmed again they start acting like they're the victims again. In my eyes the quarians are at fault for being close to extinction and making the geth seem like the bad guys, both times.

The question is not who is at fault. The fact is that the Geth did essentially exterminate the quarian race, and they were more than willing to let all of the Quarians die again in ME3, so that they could achieve individuality.

Jesus Christ Han'Gerrel, of course they were willing to destroy the species currently trying to EXTERMINATE them. Besides, they wrecked the presumably awesome geth superstructure.

Countering genocide with genocide is not an acceptable resolution to a problem. It is excessive, and in its most basic form, evil. 

You do not need to exterminate an enemy to defeat them. You do not need to exterminate an enemy to insure that they are no longer a threat.

Armchair morality with the Reapers knocking on the door. I love it. 

Look, the Reapers were coming. The Geth knew this. The Geth mostly lived on Rannoch. The Geth were building a superstructure. Reapers come to the galaxy. Quarians decide it's time to reclaim their world with force instead of trying diplomaty. Okay then. Quarians smash Geth superstructure. Geth are weakened. Quarians will exterminate the Geth. But wait! Reapers show up and save the Geth. Thanks, Quarians, now the Geth are against us and the Reapers are stronger. Oh well. Quarians are relentless. They keep pushing. Shepard frees Legion. Legion disables the Geth dreadnought with Shep and himself on it as a gesture of peace. Quarians blow it up. 


See? The Quarians acted horribly. Han'Gerrel will attack the Geth to extinction if you let him, even with the Reapers threatening, oh I don't know, all galactic society. 

Seeing how they had only the knowledge of what the geth had done to their race (genocide and taking their homeworld) and absolutely no knowledge or proof that the geth were not hostile or not already siding with the Reapers (they actually have more proof for that than the geth being peaceful), how is that in any way unreasonable or illogical?

sistersafetypin wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded. 

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

Also, you have to account for Quarian Geth sympathisers that were killed by other Quarians. In other news, people die during war times

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

 

You can't know that. ****'s killed plenty of their own people for not agreeing with them. Now I'm not calling the Quarians ****'s, I'm saying that governments would kill millions of their own people during times of war for not agreeing with them

 



Those "plenty" were still a small percentage of the population. If billions of quarians had sided with the geth, there would be 2 kinds of quarians nowadays, those on Rannoch and those in exile. There are no quarians on Rannoch. There was no big schism in the quarian populace. There were sympathizers, but they were always a small minority.

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

[justafan]

sistersafetypin wrote...

We also do not know whether there are any Quarians still on Rannoch. We know the fleet isn't there, but that's it

I believe Raan says something along the lines of observing the "Southern continent had excellent farmland" suggesting the Quarians scanned the planet, if there were siignificant Organic Settlements, it is likely they would know about it (assuming their scanners are as good as the Normandy's anyways).  Pure speculation though 

[sistersafetypin]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...


We also do not know whether there are any Quarians still on Rannoch. We know the fleet isn't there, but that's it

I don't want to be rude, but I have to ask....Is this a joke?

No more of a joke than assuming the Geth are single handedly responsible for the small numbers of Quarians left. What? Are logical leaps only allowed when they agree with you?

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 02 mai 2012 - 12:49 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

Zardoc wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Dot.Shadow wrote...
Regarding the Geth sympathetic Quarians - They could not have been in the millions or billions. We're talking a few thousand here. The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

Bull**** speculations.

The quarians would and will exterminate the Geth if you let them. The geth let them off the hook.

How does this relate to what he said?

It's more like a bottom line kind of thing. I dismissed his speculation with the first two words.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Sadly this finally just hit me. People are debating or arguing if the Quarians or Geth were justified in the Morning War.

Yet you have three outcomes that distinctly set the tone for correction, with one being a Peace difference that can outlast the ending. Why are you still talking about it?

I've never used the words "right" or "justified". I'm simply trying to get people to admit that the Geth exterminated the Quarians, and very few seem to be willing to do so, probably because they've been led to believe that the Geth are the "good guys".

They are the good guys. "If someone tries to exterminate you in life, you exterminate them right back!"

[Catamantaloedis]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...


We also do not know whether there are any Quarians still on Rannoch. We know the fleet isn't there, but that's it

I don't want to be rude, but I have to ask....Is this a joke?

No more of a joke than assuming the Geth are single handedly responsible for the small numbers of Quarians left. What? Are logical leaps only allowed when they agree with you?

Tali says she's the first quarian to see the homeworld in 300 years. This means, that at least to the Migrant Fleet's knowledge, and therefore the only knowledge we can work with, there are no other Quarians on Rannoch. 

[VirtualSoldier27]

its funny,that to people on this board the Geth are the good guys, but to every species in the Mass Effect universe, the Geth are considered a plague and a threat,and the Alliance considered them there top threat untill ME3,Shepard an CO was infact looking for Geth ships to annhiliate at the beginning of ME2

Modifié par VirtualSoldier27, 02 mai 2012 - 12:53 .

[Catamantaloedis]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Sadly this finally just hit me. People are debating or arguing if the Quarians or Geth were justified in the Morning War.

Yet you have three outcomes that distinctly set the tone for correction, with one being a Peace difference that can outlast the ending. Why are you still talking about it?

I've never used the words "right" or "justified". I'm simply trying to get people to admit that the Geth exterminated the Quarians, and very few seem to be willing to do so, probably because they've been led to believe that the Geth are the "good guys".

They are the good guys. "If someone tries to exterminate you in life, you exterminate them right back!"

That's the exact definition of immorality, or amorality at the very least. By that logic, we should give every Jew a tank and send them to Germany.

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

[111987]

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

Actually, it's the other way around. Any ship that traveled near the Perseus Veil was shot down, indiscriminately.