446 réponses à ce sujet

[Warp92]

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Sadly this finally just hit me. People are debating or arguing if the Quarians or Geth were justified in the Morning War.

Yet you have three outcomes that distinctly set the tone for correction, with one being a Peace difference that can outlast the ending. Why are you still talking about it?

I've never used the words "right" or "justified". I'm simply trying to get people to admit that the Geth exterminated the Quarians, and very few seem to be willing to do so, probably because they've been led to believe that the Geth are the "good guys".

They are the good guys. "If someone tries to exterminate you in life, you exterminate them right back!"

That's the exact definition of immorality, or amorality at the very least. By that logic, we should give every Jew a tank and send them to Germany.

Excellent comeback! I'm actually speaking to myself, here. See, the Geth didn't exterminate anybody after all. What a twist!

[VirtualSoldier27]

111987 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

Actually, it's the other way around. Any ship that traveled near the Perseus Veil was shot down, indiscriminately.

and when you land on Haestrom in ME2, you are not exactley given a warm welcome, unless you consider the wrong end of a geth plasma rifle warm

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

Well, I'd start by not exterminating a helpful, peaceful race in it's first stages of self-awareness.

[justafan]

Warp92 wrote...

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

You don't even have to go outside Mass Effect, Remember Luna and you first encounter with EDI?

[TheGreenAlloy]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

111987 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

Actually, it's the other way around. Any ship that traveled near the Perseus Veil was shot down, indiscriminately.

and when you land on Haestrom in ME2, you are not exactley given a warm welcome, unless you consider the wrong end of a geth plasma rifle warm

Pretty sure the Geth got tired of being attacked 100% of the time the quarians thought they had the upper hand. Besides, weren't those Heretics?

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

Well, I'd start by not exterminating a helpful, peaceful race in it's first stages of self-awareness.

Because attacking the citadel with a Reaper to usher in the reaper genocide just screams "helpful" and peaceful".  People tend to forget that the "Orthodox" geth make no attempt to differentiate themselves from the heretics, so the galaxy logically views the two as one in the same.

[Warp92]

justafan wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

You don't even have to go outside Mass Effect, Remember Luna and you first encounter with EDI?

Indeed I do, wanted an outside example to make a stronger point

[111987]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

111987 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

Actually, it's the other way around. Any ship that traveled near the Perseus Veil was shot down, indiscriminately.

and when you land on Haestrom in ME2, you are not exactley given a warm welcome, unless you consider the wrong end of a geth plasma rifle warm

Pretty sure the Geth got tired of being attacked 100% of the time the quarians thought they had the upper hand. Besides, weren't those Heretics?

The Haestrom Geth were indeed Heretics.

But to my point; no. As soon as the Geth kicked the Quarians out, they totally isolated themselves. Any attempt, either by Quarians or other organics to negotiate, was met with death.

It just goes to show that BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG. The game goes to great lengths to show this.

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

You don't even have to go outside Mass Effect, Remember Luna and you first encounter with EDI?

Only Hackett pretty much said it wasn't an AI. WE now know it was.

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

Well, I'd start by not exterminating a helpful, peaceful race in it's first stages of self-awareness.

Because attacking the citadel with a Reaper to usher in the reaper genocide just screams "helpful" and peaceful".  People tend to forget that the "Orthodox" geth make no attempt to differentiate themselves from the heretics, so the galaxy logically views the two as one in the same.

Go back 300 years in time.

[VirtualSoldier27]

Warp92 wrote...

justafan wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

You don't even have to go outside Mass Effect, Remember Luna and you first encounter with EDI?

Indeed I do, wanted an outside example to make a stronger point

Matrix
Terminator
9
IRobot
in almost every sci-fi movie where AI is in question, it is assumed that the AI will consider Humans a threat to it, and attack, and Humans will react by trying to destroy the AI

[111987]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

Well, I'd start by not exterminating a helpful, peaceful race in it's first stages of self-awareness.

Because attacking the citadel with a Reaper to usher in the reaper genocide just screams "helpful" and peaceful".  People tend to forget that the "Orthodox" geth make no attempt to differentiate themselves from the heretics, so the galaxy logically views the two as one in the same.

Not to mention the Orthodox Geth did absolutely nothing to stop Sovereign...basically stepping aside to allow a galactic genocide.

I repeat; both sides were in the wrong.

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

111987 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

To paraphrase

Legion: Every attempt at negotiation with the quarians was met by attack, 100% of the time.

And like one poster stated earlier, the geth were basically children under attack.

Actually, it's the other way around. Any ship that traveled near the Perseus Veil was shot down, indiscriminately.

and when you land on Haestrom in ME2, you are not exactley given a warm welcome, unless you consider the wrong end of a geth plasma rifle warm

Pretty sure the Geth got tired of being attacked 100% of the time the quarians thought they had the upper hand. Besides, weren't those Heretics?

The Haestrom Geth were indeed Heretics.

But to my point; no. As soon as the Geth kicked the Quarians out, they totally isolated themselves. Any attempt, either by Quarians or other organics to negotiate, was met with death.

It just goes to show that BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG. The game goes to great lengths to show this.

I agree that both sides were wrong to an extent, but I don't believe that the game goes far enough to show it. In fact, barring peace between the geth and quarians, I think the game pretty much pushes the Geth on you as the Paragon, and therefore morally upright, choice. 

[justafan]

Warp92 wrote...

justafan wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

You don't even have to go outside Mass Effect, Remember Luna and you first encounter with EDI?

Indeed I do, wanted an outside example to make a stronger point

Those movies and shows always do bring up interesting ideas.  Actually, on the subject, I'm surprised I don't hear more Battlestar Galactica comparisons outside the endings and on these Geth/Quarian discussion 

[Warp92]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

justafan wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

well if humans were to do the samething nobody would care ..not the best example but remember IRobot..? Pretty sure humans would "kill" turn off AIs too smart for their own good.. I'm not taking sides here just trying to make a point

You don't even have to go outside Mass Effect, Remember Luna and you first encounter with EDI?

Indeed I do, wanted an outside example to make a stronger point

Matrix
Terminator
9
IRobot
in almost every sci-fi movie where AI is in question, it is assumed that the AI will consider Humans a threat to it, and attack, and Humans will react by trying to destroy the AI

Thanks for the help 

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

Well, I'd start by not exterminating a helpful, peaceful race in it's first stages of self-awareness.

Because attacking the citadel with a Reaper to usher in the reaper genocide just screams "helpful" and peaceful".  People tend to forget that the "Orthodox" geth make no attempt to differentiate themselves from the heretics, so the galaxy logically views the two as one in the same.

Go back 300 years in time.

My trail of logic refers to the second war only, but since you want me to, the Quarians did nothing the Humans didn't do on Luna.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aren't Heretics Geth?

The distinction was always one of ideology, not nature.

[Catamantaloedis]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aren't Heretics Geth?

The distinction was always one of ideology, not nature.

That's actually a very good point. But I'm not sure how much we can attribute the Heretics' actions to their own will, and how much of it is due to indoctrination. 

[111987]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aren't Heretics Geth?

The distinction was always one of ideology, not nature.

That's actually a very good point. But I'm not sure how much we can attribute the Heretics' actions to their own will, and how much of it is due to indoctrination. 

The Geth were never indoctrinated; well, not at least until ME3. The Heretics actions were all willing.

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then, that's one rational action by the Quarians. About time. Hmm... Wait... why were the Geth hostile again? Oh yeah.

Well if you believe Starchild, then they had excellent foresight simply didn't act soon enough the first time.

As for the Second war, consider this, everyone believes the geth are allies of the reapers.  Reapers eat civilian fleets for breakfast.  You have a giant civilian fleet with nowhere to put the civilians.  The one planet that can house these civilians is currently occupied by said reaper allies who to everyones knowledged already tried to kill all organic life three years ago.  You have a new secret weapon that can totally obliterate this Reaper ally while at the same time giving shelter to your civilians and allowing your military free reign to unite with the rest of the galaxy to stop the reapers.  

What would you do?

Well, I'd start by not exterminating a helpful, peaceful race in it's first stages of self-awareness.

Because attacking the citadel with a Reaper to usher in the reaper genocide just screams "helpful" and peaceful".  People tend to forget that the "Orthodox" geth make no attempt to differentiate themselves from the heretics, so the galaxy logically views the two as one in the same.

Go back 300 years in time.

My trail of logic refers to the second war only, but since you want me to, the Quarians did nothing the Humans didn't do on Luna.

Quarians feared that the Geth became self-aware and tried to exterminate them. That went well.

Hackett saw a crazy VI popping our own guys. We got rid of it.

Or did we... *cue dramatic music*

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aren't Heretics Geth?

The distinction was always one of ideology, not nature.

That's actually a very good point. But I'm not sure how much we can attribute the Heretics' actions to their own will, and how much of it is due to indoctrination. 

The Geth were never indoctrinated; well, not at least until ME3. The Heretics actions were all willing.

I thought as much. But my only doubt is because Saren was indoctrinated and he was leading the Geth. One doesn't necessitate the other, but its someting to think about I guess.

Regardless, if they are not indoctrinated, then the Geth capacity for violence just becomes more and more clear, and thus they are less and less sympathetic.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 01:14 .

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...


Quarians feared that the Geth became self-aware and tried to exterminate them. That went well.

Hackett saw a crazy VI popping our own guys. We got rid of it.

Or did we... *cue dramatic music*

She does enjoy the sight of humans on their knees 

Still, in ME1, I believe it is stated that council laws that pre-date the morning war demand unauthorrized AI be deactivated.  That is what Hacket ordered, that is what the Quarians were trying to prevent.

Modifié par justafan, 02 mai 2012 - 01:17 .

[Bigdoser]

Renegade Femshep: So legion what did you do after the suicide mission?

Legion: Well I went home and told the geth to prepare for the reapers we went into consunses to discuss this.

Renegade Femshep: Did they listen?

Legion: Yes they did.

Renegade Femshep:Really?

Legion: Yup, when we were preparing for the reapers the creators attacked us and made the geth as a whole dumber. 

Renegade Femshep: =_=  

Yeah honestly overall I am not pleased with the quarians after seeing the geth collective a lot of sympthaty went out the window for me personally and as renegade says in the intimdate line while making peace. "I am sick of saving you if you want to attack them do it I will let them destory you since you want it so much" 


Not the exact words but its quite close. 

The quarians have dumb leaders. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 02 mai 2012 - 01:24 .

[justafan]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

I thought as much. But my only doubt is because Saren was indoctrinated and he was leading the Geth. One doesn't necessitate the other, but its someting to think about I guess.

Regardless, if they are not indoctrinated, then the Geth capacity for violence just becomes more and more clear, and thus they are less and less sympathetic.

I think what this represented best was that the Geth were evolving a proto-sense of free will.  It showcased how organic they were becoming in their decision making process and how they were no more violent or more peaceful than humans, Quarians, or any other organic.

Of course that evolution was derailed by the reaper code, now its all unpredictable again <_<