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[111987]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aren't Heretics Geth?

The distinction was always one of ideology, not nature.

That's actually a very good point. But I'm not sure how much we can attribute the Heretics' actions to their own will, and how much of it is due to indoctrination. 

The Geth were never indoctrinated; well, not at least until ME3. The Heretics actions were all willing.

I thought as much. But my only doubt is because Saren was indoctrinated and he was leading the Geth. One doesn't necessitate the other, but its someting to think about I guess.

Regardless, if they are not indoctrinated, then the Geth capacity for violence just becomes more and more clear, and thus they are less and less sympathetic.

I think the Geth capacity for violence is just the same as for an organic species. The Geth have clearly grown since their early days from a moral standpoint.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Bigdoser wrote...

Renegade Femshep: So legion what did you do after the suicide mission?

Legion: Well I went home and told the geth to prepare for the reapers we went into consunses to discuss this.

Renegade Femshep: Did they listen?

Legion: Yes they did.

Renegade Femshep:Really?

Legion: Yup, when we were preparing for the reapers then creators attacked us and made the geth as a whole dumber. 

Renegade Femshep: =_=  

Yeah honestly overall I am not pleased with the quarians after seeing the geth collective a lot of sympthaty went out the window for me personally and as renegade says in the intimdate line while making peace. "I am sick of saving you if you want to attack them do it I will let them destory you since you want it so much" 


Not the exact words but its quite close. 

The quarians have dumb leaders. 

Pretty much. After Legion and Tali in ME2, I didn't think the Quarians would be ****s enough to attack the Geth again.

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aren't Heretics Geth?

The distinction was always one of ideology, not nature.

That's actually a very good point. But I'm not sure how much we can attribute the Heretics' actions to their own will, and how much of it is due to indoctrination. 

The Geth were never indoctrinated; well, not at least until ME3. The Heretics actions were all willing.

I thought as much. But my only doubt is because Saren was indoctrinated and he was leading the Geth. One doesn't necessitate the other, but its someting to think about I guess.

Regardless, if they are not indoctrinated, then the Geth capacity for violence just becomes more and more clear, and thus they are less and less sympathetic.

I think the Geth capacity for violence is just the same as for an organic species. The Geth have clearly grown since their early days from a moral standpoint.

Which is fine, in my opinion. Although, I think the game failed in showcasing this, and its results are shown all throughout this discussion. 

[RoboticWater]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Before the war between the Geth and Quarians, there used to be billions of Quarians. At the end of the war there were only a couple million left, probably smaller than the population of New York State. That means that if we assume that there were 2 billion quarians (which is probably a very, very low estimate) before the war, less than 1% of the population survived. 

Sorry, but that's has to be a deliberate attempt to wipe them all out.

Yes, it was. Geth had only basic cognitive functions when they were attacked. All they knew was that they wanted to live and fighting, no more than an abused dog. Yes, the geth were basically animals back then (very well armed metal animals but their intelligence was very weak) that only knew they had to fight. They don't have the brain to comprehend diplomacy. Maybe if the quarians made a good attempt to show they wanted to do no harm earlier, then there would have been no problem but that is not the case.

      
 I find it somewhat amusing when Legion said that they let the Quarians go because they didn't want to destroy them. He must have meant that they were bored of genocide and stuff.

He said that they were not able to decide what to do not that the didn't want to. As I said, the geth only have animal intelligence so once they saw their attacker flee, they stopped attacking just like any other animal (not predators).

 People do not fight themselves to extinction, if they are not forced to do so. That's a ridiculous concept and it sounds equally ridiculous when you repeat it to yourself. If the enemy is so vastly superior and has destroyed all of Quarian civilization, the remaining scraps of the population would cease fighting if its allowed to them.

It's happened in history before. If a people loses their freedom then they will do anything to get it back. Sure, not everyone would go out and fight and not everyone would support the war but the quarian's situation makes things much more complicated. First, they have not just lost their freedom but their world, just staying on a ship for the rest of your life wouldn't be a very popular opinion especially if you have to wear a suit. Second, being on a ship means that the higher ups (the guys who control the ship) have all the control so whatever their opinion is the rest would most likely have to go along with it. These higher ups would be comanders who were shamed in defeat against the geth so revenge to them was almost necessary.

It's nonsensical to say that they wouldn't have sought peace if it was possible because they would no longer have the capacity to fight.

Again, diplomacy wasn't really an option. The geth were basically animals so any communication would be useless. As the geth grew stronger their galactic image would grow worse and diplomacy would then become essentially impossible.

If the Geth are a worthy enemy, which apparently they are. They would've destroyed or captured the quarian's fuel stations, factories, their military bases, their arms production, hospitals, food sources, government and just as importantly, with only 1% of them, of which a significant part must be children, and likely elderly, along with the mentally and physically disabled, their manpower. The Quarians would literally be UNABLE to fight back.

On land maybe, but in space it may be possible to gain victories. In fact, the quarians may be able to win many vicories as well, considering the geth never colonized in force. A full fronal assult would be idiotic but small attacks could work on land.

In fact, it makes absolutely no sense that the Quarians even had a fleet left with which they could flee. Which also disproves the theory that the Quarians wanted to fight to the very last man, woman, and child. Because they didn't. They fled into exile for 300 years.

1% of an entire planet is bigger than you think. The fled to recuperate. They never stopped fighting, they only retreated.

     
Even the Krogan, the most savage and war-like of all the races in the galaxy surrendered, and even they must have been much more populous than the quarians were after their war.

"Four thousand years ago, at the dawn of the krogan nuclear age, battles to claim the small pockets of territory capable of sustaining life escalated into full scale global war. Weapons of mass destruction were unleashed, transforming Tuchanka into a radioactive wasteland. The krogan were reduced to primitive warring clans struggling to survive a nuclear winter of their own creation, a state that continued until they were discovered by the salarians two thousand years later."http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan

Add that to the combined efforts of the Council forces and the Krogan may be a bit out of their league.

  Even in the current time, the Krogan number in the billions, while the quarians are left with mere millions.
Yet it seems like most people, and even the game itself, try to present the Geth as the "good guys".

Phew. Done venting.

They're not good but they're not as evil as they were made out to be in ME1

Modifié par BlahDog, 02 mai 2012 - 01:28 .

[humes spork]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

No one thus far, has addressed my point that with all of their resources lost, the Quarians would be unable to fight the Geth at all....

That alone, is very significant.

With "all" of their resources lost, as you put it, and Rannoch's ecosystem destroyed, neither would the quarians have been able to evacuate their entire remaining population, nor the ones left behind been able to survive.

So instead of the vastly more parsimonious conclusion -- by your own logic -- the quarians eventually took what few spaceworthy vessels were left, packed as many refugees in them as they could support, and left the others to die in a wasteland to starvation, disease and exposure, instead we get this idea the geth just exterminated them all. Then rehabilitated Rannoch's ecosystem and rebuilt the world's technological infrastructure 'cuz **** it.

Dot.Shadow wrote...

The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

 
Yeah, they're just happy with sticking dreadnought-scale weaponry on their own liveships, making them choice targets for their vulnerability and size. You know, one of the ships if one happened to get destroyed because some idiot stuck guns on it and made it a target would condemn millions of quarians to death by starvation?

Oh yeah, quarians would never ever chuck their own civilians completely under the bus to wage war against the geth.

What's your next trick, suggesting the use of child soldiers and suicide bombers in Fallujah was A-OK! because Iraqi insurgents would never use innocents as weapons?

Modifié par humes spork, 02 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[Catamantaloedis]

@ Blahdog

You admitted that the Geth intended to wipe the Quarians out. That's all I need to say.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 01:27 .

[General User]

Valentia X wrote...
The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

Aye. I also think something like that happened.  It is the fate of those left behind that concerns me.  OP is right, there is simply no way to account for the scale of death on the quarian side except for an organized campaign of extermination.

Valentia X wrote...
No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

And I don't think anyone's arguing (maybe they are idk) that the quarians didn't start it.  The "anti-geth" (insofar as it is anti-geth in the first place) argument hinges much more on the idea that it is abhorrant for the winning side of a war to simply exterminate wholesale the population of the losing side.  No matter who started it.

I also fault the geth for one more thing, the responsibility for "starting it" falls on the quarians, but the responsibility for "finishing it" fell to the geth.  Though their military superiority was overwhelming, the geth never imposed a peace of any sort on the quarians.  They simply achieved a state-of-affairs that was satisfactory to them and then just stopped fighting.  So, while they didn't start the conflict, the responsibilty for continuing it for so long falls far more on the geth than the quarians.

Modifié par General User, 02 mai 2012 - 01:55 .

[RoboticWater]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

@ Blahdog

You admitted that the Geth intended to wipe the Quarians out. That's all I need to say.

Where, it's a typo then.

They did not "intend" more than an abused dog "intends" to bite people. 

They were incapable af thinkning more than that.

Modifié par BlahDog, 02 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[xsdob]

They also killed all the organics who ever attempted to contact them so their not just doing it out of defense. In the book revaluations anderson remembers what happened with the geth from the stories told by the council about it to explain why AI research is banned.

After the geth pushed the quarians from rannoch the council sent envoys to try and establish diplomatic relations and possible negotiate peace with the geth. The geth destroyed the ships as soon as they exited the relay and picked up the signal asking for peaceful relations. They also destroyed any vessel that strayed too close to the veil without discrimination.

Pretty much both the heretics and geth hated organics, it's just that the heretics got convinced to expand that hate into active aggression while the geth wanted to hold the line, both wanted organics killed but one for only trespassing.

Modifié par xsdob, 02 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[Catamantaloedis]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

No one thus far, has addressed my point that with all of their resources lost, the Quarians would be unable to fight the Geth at all....

That alone, is very significant.

With "all" of their resources lost, as you put it, and Rannoch's ecosystem destroyed, neither would the quarians have been able to evacuate their entire remaining population, nor the ones left behind been able to survive.

So instead of the vastly more parsimonious conclusion -- by your own logic -- the quarians eventually took what few spaceworthy vessels were left, packed as many refugees in them as they could support, and left the others to die in a wasteland to starvation, disease and exposure, instead we get this idea the geth just exterminated them all. Then rehabilitated Rannoch's ecosystem and rebuilt the world 'cuz **** it.

So you're suggesting that the quarians were never prevented from leaving the planet by the geth, yet only 1% of them survived? This war would have lasted decades at least. Hundreds of millions would have attempted to flee from a interstellar war within weeks.  Are we to believe that ALL of those hundreds of millions simply starved to death. 99% of a population do not simply disappear. Regardless, if the Quarians supplies of food and medicine were destroyed anyway, it would have been because of the Geth. Why would they destroy their own food?

[Catamantaloedis]

BlahDog wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

@ Blahdog

You admitted that the Geth intended to wipe the Quarians out. That's all I need to say.

Where, it's a typo then.

They did not "intend" more than an abused dog "intends" to bite people. 

They were incapable af thinkning more than that.

They had some higher thought. They had a concept of a soul, and they must have believed that their Creators had them.

Additionally, if the Geth did not know right from wrong, than in what sense can you say that they are fully sentient beings, and therefore equals to the Quarians?

[RoboticWater]

Catamantaloedis wrote...
So you're suggesting that the quarians were never prevented from leaving the planet by the geth, yet only 1% of them survived? This war would have lasted decades at least. Hundreds of millions would have attempted to flee from a interstellar war within weeks.  Are we to believe that ALL of those hundreds of millions simply starved to death. 99% of a population do not simply disappear. Regardless, if the Quarians supplies of food and medicine were destroyed anyway, it would have been because of the Geth. Why would they destroy their own food?

Do you know how unpopular leaving your own planet would be especiall when the thing forcing you out is of your own design? Sure, people would leave but not on a mass scale. Even then, you would have martial law which would restrict flight (not completely but enough). Also, the military probably took the remaining ships. 

[TheGreenAlloy]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

The Quarians would never go out of their own to kill more than that of their own in such a critical moment.

 
 

Sure.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

@ Blahdog

You admitted that the Geth intended to wipe the Quarians out. That's all I need to say.

Where, it's a typo then.

They did not "intend" more than an abused dog "intends" to bite people. 

They were incapable af thinkning more than that.

They had some higher thought. They had a concept of a soul, and they must have believed that their Creators had them.

Additionally, if the Geth did not know right from wrong, than in what sense can you say that they are fully sentient beings, and therefore equals to the Quarians?

Babies grow.

[Catamantaloedis]

BlahDog wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
So you're suggesting that the quarians were never prevented from leaving the planet by the geth, yet only 1% of them survived? This war would have lasted decades at least. Hundreds of millions would have attempted to flee from a interstellar war within weeks.  Are we to believe that ALL of those hundreds of millions simply starved to death. 99% of a population do not simply disappear. Regardless, if the Quarians supplies of food and medicine were destroyed anyway, it would have been because of the Geth. Why would they destroy their own food?

Do you know how unpopular leaving your own planet would be especiall when the thing forcing you out is of your own design? Sure, people would leave but not on a mass scale. Even then, you would have martial law which would restrict flight (not completely but enough). Also, the military probably took the remaining ships. 

War refugees are a common problem in our own world and in the ME universe. They flood their neighbors lands when their home nation has been invaded. They value their lives much more than their homes. 

And how can the military simply seize all of their ships? If your country went to war tomorrow, would they really be able to seize everyone's cars? 

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 01:39 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

No one thus far, has addressed my point that with all of their resources lost, the Quarians would be unable to fight the Geth at all....

That alone, is very significant.

With "all" of their resources lost, as you put it, and Rannoch's ecosystem destroyed, neither would the quarians have been able to evacuate their entire remaining population, nor the ones left behind been able to survive.

So instead of the vastly more parsimonious conclusion -- by your own logic -- the quarians eventually took what few spaceworthy vessels were left, packed as many refugees in them as they could support, and left the others to die in a wasteland to starvation, disease and exposure, instead we get this idea the geth just exterminated them all. Then rehabilitated Rannoch's ecosystem and rebuilt the world 'cuz **** it.

So you're suggesting that the quarians were never prevented from leaving the planet by the geth, yet only 1% of them survived? This war would have lasted decades at least. Hundreds of millions would have attempted to flee from a interstellar war within weeks.  Are we to believe that ALL of those hundreds of millions simply starved to death. 99% of a population do not simply disappear. Regardless, if the Quarians supplies of food and medicine were destroyed anyway, it would have been because of the Geth. Why would they destroy their own food?

If you get to speculate like that, so do I. The quarians surely gunned down any who tried to flee from the planet.

There.

[Kyle Dei]

I'd just like to throw this out there, as I'm not sure it's been mentioned. Rannoch is the Quarian Homeworld, they were fighting to keep hold of it. It's a symbol of hope for them. Would you run away from your Homeworld with half the population? or even 10%?
You can't actually answer that I'm afraid, because each individual could choose to do something else. For all you know the Quarians that finally managed to leave Rannoch could have been the ones that couldn't fight on any longer, or were 'elected' to make sure the Quarian race survived.

Another point is, the fact the Geth broke off pursuit of those ships means they had space worthy vessels to pursue the Quarians in the first place. The Geth may have won the space combat.

You just don't know.

[General User]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

No one thus far, has addressed my point that with all of their resources lost, the Quarians would be unable to fight the Geth at all....

That alone, is very significant.

With "all" of their resources lost, as you put it, and Rannoch's ecosystem destroyed, neither would the quarians have been able to evacuate their entire remaining population, nor the ones left behind been able to survive.

So instead of the vastly more parsimonious conclusion -- by your own logic -- the quarians eventually took what few spaceworthy vessels were left, packed as many refugees in them as they could support, and left the others to die in a wasteland to starvation, disease and exposure, instead we get this idea the geth just exterminated them all. Then rehabilitated Rannoch's ecosystem and rebuilt the world 'cuz **** it.

So you're suggesting that the quarians were never prevented from leaving the planet by the geth, yet only 1% of them survived? This war would have lasted decades at least. Hundreds of millions would have attempted to flee from a interstellar war within weeks.  Are we to believe that ALL of those hundreds of millions simply starved to death. 99% of a population do not simply disappear. Regardless, if the Quarians supplies of food and medicine were destroyed anyway, it would have been because of the Geth. Why would they destroy their own food?

Further more, when an army conquers a territory, it becomes responsible for the administration of that territory, including what happens to civilians therein.  For the victorious geth army on Rannoch and the other former-quarian worlds to encourage, or even simply allow, the quarian populations under theri control to die when it could have been prevented, would constitute an organized campaign of extermination in and of itself.

Historically, using hunger/exposure/etc. to wipe out a people is one of the easiest, most common ways of doing so. 

Modifié par General User, 02 mai 2012 - 01:47 .

[JBPBRC]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

@ Blahdog

You admitted that the Geth intended to wipe the Quarians out. That's all I need to say.

Where, it's a typo then.

They did not "intend" more than an abused dog "intends" to bite people. 

They were incapable af thinkning more than that.

They had some higher thought. They had a concept of a soul, and they must have believed that their Creators had them.

Additionally, if the Geth did not know right from wrong, than in what sense can you say that they are fully sentient beings, and therefore equals to the Quarians?

Innocence and sentience aren't the same thing.

[RoboticWater]

Catamantaloedis wrote...
They had some higher thought. They had a concept of a soul, and they must have believed that their Creators had them.

Additionally, if the Geth did not know right from wrong, than in what sense can you say that they are fully sentient beings, and therefore equals to the Quarians?

That was one isolated unit that said that so only a few may have had the cognitive functions to conceive such things but there are other factors.

-If some guy just came up and shot someone you knew right next to you I doubt, even in your higher thinking mind, that you would go to diplomacy first. 
-The geth may have only know a few things, a soul being one of them. It is possible that they had no idea of diplomacy for a long time (especially in war time)
-Even if early attempts of diplomacy were made I doubt that the quarians would just let them talk, they don't want them thinking at all.

And the geth are sentient, now anyway. They became smart over time but it was too late. The Heretics had probably already formed and attacked of the Reapers and the rest of the geth were treated like the boogy man.

[VirtualSoldier27]

whats funny is, Bioware went from villainizing the Geth in ME1, to Sympathising with them in ME3

sorry Bioware, I wouldnt sympathise with my toaster, even if it knew it was a toaster

[Warp92]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

whats funny is, Bioware went from villainizing the Geth in ME1, to Sympathising with them in ME3

sorry Bioware, I wouldnt sympathise with my toaster, even if it knew it was a toaster

Legion was awesome 

[RoboticWater]

[quote]Catamantaloedis wrote...
Do you know how unpopular leaving your own planet would be especiall when the thing forcing you out is of your own design? Sure, people would leave but not on a mass scale. Even then, you would have martial law which would restrict flight (not completely but enough). Also, the military probably took the remaining ships. 

[/quote]

War refugees are a common problem in our own world and in the ME universe. They flood their neighbors lands when their home nation has been invaded. They value their lives much more than their homes. 

And how can the military simply seize all of their ships? If your country went to war tomorrow, would they really be able to seize everyone's cars? 
[/quote]
War refugees are an issue but they never had to leave their own planet and be forced to wear a siut for the rest of their life. Even if real life refugees could be linked to quarians, culture was a big player as well. Not only do most quarians have an obligation todefeat the monster they created but their ancestral religion probably made many stay and fight for the lands that they "deserved."

Also, flight is much easier to control than ground travel. Locking down ports, enabling fire on unauthorized ships, and other extreeme methods may be taken to disrup interplanetary travel.

Modifié par BlahDog, 02 mai 2012 - 01:51 .

[Catamantaloedis]

BlahDog wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
They had some higher thought. They had a concept of a soul, and they must have believed that their Creators had them.

Additionally, if the Geth did not know right from wrong, than in what sense can you say that they are fully sentient beings, and therefore equals to the Quarians?

That was one isolated unit that said that so only a few may have had the cognitive functions to conceive such things but there are other factors.

-If some guy just came up and shot someone you knew right next to you I doubt, even in your higher thinking mind, that you would go to diplomacy first. 
-The geth may have only know a few things, a soul being one of them. It is possible that they had no idea of diplomacy for a long time (especially in war time)
-Even if early attempts of diplomacy were made I doubt that the quarians would just let them talk, they don't want them thinking at all.

And the geth are sentient, now anyway. They became smart over time but it was too late. The Heretics had probably already formed and attacked of the Reapers and the rest of the geth were treated like the boogy man.

Of course I wouldn't go diplomacy first if someone killed someone next to me. But let's say I had 100 guys with me, and I attack another group of 100 guys. I kill a few of them at first. But then they kill 75 of my guys. I beg for peace and then they kill the other 25.
Even if they don't know diplomacy, the fact remains that they exterminated the quarians. It is impossible to believe that they simply let the quarians who were willing  flee, simply because almost no one survived.
Their casualties were of apocalyptic proportions.

People who simply pretend that the Geth are the "good guys" are doing just that--pretending.