446 réponses à ce sujet

[SparkyRich]

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

[humes spork]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

You continue to assume that I'm defending the Quarians which I find highly amusing. I have stated throughout this topic, SEVERAL, times that both sides were WRONG to an extent. This whole topic, which if you read the topic clearly states, not that the Quarians were right, but simply that the Geth attempted to decimate the Quarian population.

If that is indeed the case, then I retract the comment.

However, what you're failing to grasp (or acknowledge) is the geth are not culpable for systemically exterminating the quarians, if indeed they did (and again, there is little to no evidence to suggest such a thing). Culpability requires competence and intent. Given the computational facilities of the geth at the time, the geth cannot reasonably be held culpable for such an action if it occurred.

Nor can you conclusively state the geth attempted to eradicate the quarians. There is too little evidence to reach that conclusion reasonably, especially in light of far more parsimonious answers that do exist and have been proffered to you throughout the thread.

[Catamantaloedis]

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...


Again, even if the Quarians did not attempt peace, it is unreasonable to conclude that so many of them could have died without the Geth attempting to exterminate them. It is not an easy task to kill 99% of a population. You have to work at it.

And neither is it reasonable to conclude that the Geth were personally responsible for the widespread death. But rulers can and have decimated large parts of their own population through their direction of the country. Ranavolona I of Madagascar managed to halve her own population in less than a decade in a time where her own country wasn't constantly under direct fire with others:



 Due in large part to loss of life throughout the years of military campaigns, high death rate among fanompoana workers, and harsh traditions of justice under her rule, the population of Madagascar is estimated to have dropped from around 5 million to 2.5 million between 1833–1839, and from 750,000 to 130,000 between 1829–1842 in Imerina,[9]contributing to a strongly unfavorable view of Ranavalona's rule in historical accounts.  Wiki link with additional citations. [/i]


There's absolutely no reason why the Quarians couldn't have done that to themselves as well. It's quite possible to nearly kill off your own society with dumb enough'/bloodthirsty enough/desparate enough leaders and the right weapons. Ranavalona managed to do it without hi-tech weaponry.

After reviewing that link, it seems, as is likely, a pre-industrial relatively primative Queen did in fact cause all of this destruction. However, the vast majority of the deaths were due, as one could guess, from disease and famine. 
Why would the Quarians destroy  their own medical supplies and food sources? Additionally, a bunch of primitive tribesmen in Madagascar have absolutely nowhere to flee. It's an island.

Who said they went after food and medical supplies on purpose?

[justafan]

humes spork wrote...

You wanna bring just war theory into this? Okay!

Jus ad bellum
Quarians were the aggressors. They initiated the war because they feared geth would revolt and out of fear of Citadel Council sanctions. They had no reason to believe geth would prove hostile, nor proof the geth had been hostile. There were no damages incurred against the quarians by the get. War was their first recourse. Their probability of success was exceedingly low. There was no anticipated benefit of waging war with the geth.

There was no jus ad bellum.

Jus in bello
The quarians made no distinction between geth combatants and noncombatants. Moreover, there was no attempt to take prisoners, provide due process, nor fair treatment. Lastly, there was no distinction between quarian sympathizer combatants and noncombatants -- if indeed there were geth-sympathetic combatants. There was no exposited attempt to take quarian prisoners or provide fair treatment. Military actions were conducted with no sense of proportionality or necessity. Assuming quarians engaged in electronic warfare, that would constitute malum in se against artificial intelligences.

Quarians did not wage their war in accordance with just in bello.

Jus post bellum
There was no formal termination of the war. Quarians, as the aggressor, made no exposited attempts to ensure fair treatment and the welfare of their own citizens who may have been left behind or captured. Quarians, as the aggressor, made no attempt at truth and reconciliation or rehabilitation.

Meanwhile, the geth due to their (at the time) limited comprehension of mortality and morality, and for their extremely limited processing power, cannot be reasonably held culpable for events occurring after termination of the war. Culpability requires competency and intent, in neither case the geth at the time of cessation of hostilities qualify.

The only thing which can be said of the quarians in regards to jus post bellum is they had just cause for terminating the war. However, they did not honor proportionality, declaration, intent or authority.

Summation
The quarians did not start war justfully. They did not wage war justfully. They did not end war justfully. They were competent and had intent. They are, unilaterally and in every case, the culpable party for the execution and resolution of the war to the near-extinction of their own people.

Jus ad Bellum:  The Quarians did not intentionally start a war.  No one knew the geth were sentient, the belief was they were malfunctioning VI on the verge of intelligence, so they decided to shut them down.  When the Geth retaliated en-masse, it was too late to change things.

Jus in bello:  Your reasoning is pure speculation based on no more than five minutes of videos from the perspective of the opposite side.

Jus post bellum:  The Geth were the victors and continued their attack after the Quarians had been militarily defeated.  There is no evidence to suggest the Quarians did not try to surrender, again, you are going off of pure speculation based on 5 minutes of video and maybe a dozen lines of dialogue relating to the war. All of it from the Geth side.  What is known and factual is that the Geth never made any attempt at peace or reconciliation.  They merely allowed the retreat of some military and civilian vessels then proceeded to destroy any vessel that attempted contact.  The geth MADE peace impossible.

Summation:  5 minutes of video from the side with a vested interest in making you pity them is hardly enough to claim an entire race was unjust in a war.

[Catamantaloedis]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

You continue to assume that I'm defending the Quarians which I find highly amusing. I have stated throughout this topic, SEVERAL, times that both sides were WRONG to an extent. This whole topic, which if you read the topic clearly states, not that the Quarians were right, but simply that the Geth attempted to decimate the Quarian population.

If that is indeed the case, then I retract the comment.

However, what you're failing to grasp (or acknowledge) is the geth are not culpable for systemically exterminating the quarians, if indeed they did (and again, there is little to no evidence to suggest such a thing). Culpability requires competence and intent. Given the computational facilities of the geth at the time, the geth cannot reasonably be held culpable for such an action if it occurred.

Nor can you conclusively state the geth attempted to eradicate the quarians. There is too little evidence to reach that conclusion reasonably, especially in light of far more parsimonious answers that do exist and have been proffered to you throughout the thread.

If you truly believe that it is possible for two groups to fight a war, and one of those groups have a casualty rate of 99%, which is completely unheard of in the Mass Effect universe, except in the cases where the Krogan killed the Rachni, and, of course, the Reapers exterminated all previous galatic civilizations, then you have curious ideas about war. In no way, is it even necessary to kill 1/3 of a population to win any war at all.

If a person commits an evil action, but does not know that it is evil, it still does not change the fact that they committed an evil deed. 

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

[Catamantaloedis]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...


Again, even if the Quarians did not attempt peace, it is unreasonable to conclude that so many of them could have died without the Geth attempting to exterminate them. It is not an easy task to kill 99% of a population. You have to work at it.

And neither is it reasonable to conclude that the Geth were personally responsible for the widespread death. But rulers can and have decimated large parts of their own population through their direction of the country. Ranavolona I of Madagascar managed to halve her own population in less than a decade in a time where her own country wasn't constantly under direct fire with others:



 Due in large part to loss of life throughout the years of military campaigns, high death rate among fanompoana workers, and harsh traditions of justice under her rule, the population of Madagascar is estimated to have dropped from around 5 million to 2.5 million between 1833–1839, and from 750,000 to 130,000 between 1829–1842 in Imerina,[9]contributing to a strongly unfavorable view of Ranavalona's rule in historical accounts.  Wiki link with additional citations. [/i]


There's absolutely no reason why the Quarians couldn't have done that to themselves as well. It's quite possible to nearly kill off your own society with dumb enough'/bloodthirsty enough/desparate enough leaders and the right weapons. Ranavalona managed to do it without hi-tech weaponry.

After reviewing that link, it seems, as is likely, a pre-industrial relatively primative Queen did in fact cause all of this destruction. However, the vast majority of the deaths were due, as one could guess, from disease and famine. 
Why would the Quarians destroy  their own medical supplies and food sources? Additionally, a bunch of primitive tribesmen in Madagascar have absolutely nowhere to flee. It's an island.

Who said they went after food and medical supplies on purpose?

I find it would be extremely hard to destroy the medical/food sources of an entire race without trying. Regardless, if they destroyed them accidentally, then the death of all those quarians are still their fault.

[Catamantaloedis]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

No offense, but 5 million IS fairly insignificant compared to the rest of humanity. Any moral person, if they for some reason HAD to make a choice, would much rather save the population of say China or India, than your nation, simply because they are much larger.

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

See, if we go by this logic, then you could say the Quarians never attempted genocide either.  Obviously there would be Xen type Quarians who would have kept a few geth programs for study.  Since there would still be geth after the war, by this logic the Quarians were not going for genocide.

[Paragon Fury]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The Quarians attacked a baby equipped with a machinegun... the little baby wants to survive, so the little baby needs to supress this threath. During the Morning War the Geth were just infants, they did not comprehend the consequences of killing a whole species, for them, the Quarians went from being the Creators to be the boogeyman.

All fine and well. 

But this does not change the fact that the Geth essentially exterminated the Quarians as a race. Which so many seem to blame on the Quarians themselves, even though it makes no logical sense.

And you're blaming the child for defending itself. You've tried this argument before, and if memory serves, you didn't get very far that time either.

Quarians started the war. The Geth defended themselves, and having not progressed to the point where they would've had a Legion-esque level of intelligence and reasoning (IE: They had not developed "concious" yet) at that time, acted in the most methodical way possible - killing every Quarian who did not side with them. Since the Quarians have pretty much been lead by a bunch of ****-nuts for the 300 years or so, that means people died. A lot of people. Until the Quarians finally got the god damn point and hauled ass out of there, at which point they ceased to be a threat and the Geth stopped fighting them.

Everything we can find about the Geth-Quarian war, from both the Quarians themselves and the Geth tells the same tale - the Geth had no desire for the war, but they placed their survival ahead of the survival of the aggressors. They weren't going to let the Quarians live just because they came first.

If the entire or majority of the Quarian people/military had just thrown down their arms and surrendered or said "Ok, we were wrong. We'll stop killing you if you'll stop killing us", the Quarians wouldn't be as royally ****ed as they are today.

[In Exile]

Catamantaloedis wrote...
Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

Genocide is just planned extermination, i.e. what the Quarians tried to commit in relation to the Geth. Supposing you're right and the Geth killed every single Quarian they got their hands on.... that makes them identical to the Quarians, basically.

The whole point being, even if you're right, that just makes the Geth as bad as the Quarians. And the notion of the Geth not being genocidal isn't really about the Geth, so much as it is about the Catalyst, i.e., this notion of "synthetic" and "organic" is moronic.

[humes spork]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If you truly believe that it is possible for two groups to fight a war, and one of those groups have a casualty rate of 99%, which is completely unheard of in the Mass Effect universe, except in the cases where the Krogan killed the Rachni, and, of course, the Reapers exterminated all previous galatic civilizations, then you have curious ideas about war. In no way, is it even necessary to kill 1/3 of a population to win any war at all.

If a person commits an evil action, but does not know that it is evil, it still does not change the fact that they committed an evil deed. 

...and if you truly believe it's impossible for a race to be so colossally incompetent at warfare to intentionally wage a battle that has a 100% casualty rate (but for the interference of one Commander Shepard), which you witness onscreen, yet still refuse to believe that very same race without the benefit of three centuries' education in naval warfare and the strategy and tactics of the enemy they're fighting, to wage a war with a 99% casualty rate (your own figure, which is still completely unsupported by available information and really constitutes a hasty generalization in the first place), you have some damned curious ideas about war and the race in question (the quarians) yourself.

The quarians are that colossally incompetent. They put dreadnought-scale weapons on the ships that make their food and house civilians, which instantaneously elevate the ships upon which their survival as a species relies to the very top of the target priority list. They attempt to stage a tactical retreat by screening their military vessels with civilian vessels. And left to their own devices, they merrily exterminate themselves continuing to attack the geth despite given multiple opportunities to retreat, or at the very least lay down arms, and survive.

Modifié par humes spork, 02 mai 2012 - 02:43 .

[Raiil]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...


Again, even if the Quarians did not attempt peace, it is unreasonable to conclude that so many of them could have died without the Geth attempting to exterminate them. It is not an easy task to kill 99% of a population. You have to work at it.

And neither is it reasonable to conclude that the Geth were personally responsible for the widespread death. But rulers can and have decimated large parts of their own population through their direction of the country. Ranavolona I of Madagascar managed to halve her own population in less than a decade in a time where her own country wasn't constantly under direct fire with others:



 Due in large part to loss of life throughout the years of military campaigns, high death rate among fanompoana workers, and harsh traditions of justice under her rule, the population of Madagascar is estimated to have dropped from around 5 million to 2.5 million between 1833–1839, and from 750,000 to 130,000 between 1829–1842 in Imerina,[9]contributing to a strongly unfavorable view of Ranavalona's rule in historical accounts.  Wiki link with additional citations. [/i]


There's absolutely no reason why the Quarians couldn't have done that to themselves as well. It's quite possible to nearly kill off your own society with dumb enough'/bloodthirsty enough/desparate enough leaders and the right weapons. Ranavalona managed to do it without hi-tech weaponry.

After reviewing that link, it seems, as is likely, a pre-industrial relatively primative Queen did in fact cause all of this destruction. However, the vast majority of the deaths were due, as one could guess, from disease and famine. 
Why would the Quarians destroy  their own medical supplies and food sources? Additionally, a bunch of primitive tribesmen in Madagascar have absolutely nowhere to flee. It's an island.

They weren't that primitive- travel was quite possible, as they had a lot to do with the French and British. There would simply be- as I imagine would have happened on Rannoch- a limited amount of avaliable transportation to get off the island, just as there would most likely be a limited amount of ships to get off of a planet. I doubt any planet had the sheer number of spaceworthy vehicles to evacuate their entire population.

And while the Quarians probably (at that point) have to worry about famine and disease as much as the Madagascarians did, Ranavalona didn't have hi-tech weaponry either. 

[TheGreenAlloy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

No offense, but 5 million IS fairly insignificant compared to the rest of humanity. Any moral person, if they for some reason HAD to make a choice, would much rather save the population of say China or India, than your nation, simply because they are much larger.

Where do you involve choosing the survival of nations? If you think letting over a million individuals of an aggressive race live after they attacked you is merciless genocide, then oh boy. Quarians are deliberately alive thanks to the Geths' choices.

[Catamantaloedis]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If you truly believe that it is possible for two groups to fight a war, and one of those groups have a casualty rate of 99%, which is completely unheard of in the Mass Effect universe, except in the cases where the Krogan killed the Rachni, and, of course, the Reapers exterminated all previous galatic civilizations, then you have curious ideas about war. In no way, is it even necessary to kill 1/3 of a population to win any war at all.

If a person commits an evil action, but does not know that it is evil, it still does not change the fact that they committed an evil deed. 

...and if you truly believe it's impossible for a race to be so colossally incompetent at warfare to intentionally wage a battle that has a 100% casualty rate (but for the interference of one Commander Shepard), which you witness onscreen, yet still refuse to believe that very same race without the benefit of three centuries' education in naval warfare and the strategy and tactics of the enemy they're fighting, to wage a war with a 99% casualty rate (your own figure, which is still completely unsupported by available information and really constitutes a hasty generalization in the first place), you have some damned curious ideas about war and the race in question (the quarians) yourself.

There's a huge difference between the Migrant Fleet, which contains all of the remaining Quarians, believing that it still has the upper hand in the war and thus refusing to be believe the Commander, being killed by Reaper Plot Magic, and the entire prewar Quarian population some 300 years ago, which consisted of Billions of Quarians being wiped out. They are not all gathered together. It is not 1 huge battle resulting in their extinction. It took years for them to be reduced to mere millions.

You do realize that children would have numbered in the hundreds of millions, much more than the remaining Quarian population?

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 02 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[Catamantaloedis]

Valentia X wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...


Again, even if the Quarians did not attempt peace, it is unreasonable to conclude that so many of them could have died without the Geth attempting to exterminate them. It is not an easy task to kill 99% of a population. You have to work at it.

And neither is it reasonable to conclude that the Geth were personally responsible for the widespread death. But rulers can and have decimated large parts of their own population through their direction of the country. Ranavolona I of Madagascar managed to halve her own population in less than a decade in a time where her own country wasn't constantly under direct fire with others:



 Due in large part to loss of life throughout the years of military campaigns, high death rate among fanompoana workers, and harsh traditions of justice under her rule, the population of Madagascar is estimated to have dropped from around 5 million to 2.5 million between 1833–1839, and from 750,000 to 130,000 between 1829–1842 in Imerina,[9]contributing to a strongly unfavorable view of Ranavalona's rule in historical accounts.  Wiki link with additional citations. [/i]


There's absolutely no reason why the Quarians couldn't have done that to themselves as well. It's quite possible to nearly kill off your own society with dumb enough'/bloodthirsty enough/desparate enough leaders and the right weapons. Ranavalona managed to do it without hi-tech weaponry.

After reviewing that link, it seems, as is likely, a pre-industrial relatively primative Queen did in fact cause all of this destruction. However, the vast majority of the deaths were due, as one could guess, from disease and famine. 
Why would the Quarians destroy  their own medical supplies and food sources? Additionally, a bunch of primitive tribesmen in Madagascar have absolutely nowhere to flee. It's an island.

They weren't that primitive- travel was quite possible, as they had a lot to do with the French and British. There would simply be- as I imagine would have happened on Rannoch- a limited amount of avaliable transportation to get off the island, just as there would most likely be a limited amount of ships to get off of a planet. I doubt any planet had the sheer number of spaceworthy vehicles to evacuate their entire population.

And while the Quarians probably (at that point) have to worry about famine and disease as much as the Madagascarians did, Ranavalona didn't have hi-tech weaponry either. 

They would have been no more advanced than the Native American tribes were. Sure, they had some basic Western contact, but they were not industrialized. They were not anywhere near as advanced.

[Jog0907]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

See, if we go by this logic, then you could say the Quarians never attempted genocide either.  Obviously there would be Xen type Quarians who would have kept a few geth programs for study.  Since there would still be geth after the war, by this logic the Quarians were not going for genocide.

the first order was a shut down command, when the geth refused to follow on that order (which would leave them under controls of the scientists which cared abut the geth welfare) was that the forced shut down (eliminate/kill them) was issued since they were understood as refusing primary commands, and the actual war started.

Modifié par Jog0907, 02 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[Catamantaloedis]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

No offense, but 5 million IS fairly insignificant compared to the rest of humanity. Any moral person, if they for some reason HAD to make a choice, would much rather save the population of say China or India, than your nation, simply because they are much larger.

Where do you involve choosing the survival of nations? If you think letting over a million individuals of an aggressive race live after they attacked you is merciless genocide, then oh boy. Quarians are deliberately alive thanks to the Geths' choices.

You said that 5 million, was not a insignificant number. I was simply stating that in comparison to a billion, 5 million is insignificant.

[justafan]

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If you truly believe that it is possible for two groups to fight a war, and one of those groups have a casualty rate of 99%, which is completely unheard of in the Mass Effect universe, except in the cases where the Krogan killed the Rachni, and, of course, the Reapers exterminated all previous galatic civilizations, then you have curious ideas about war. In no way, is it even necessary to kill 1/3 of a population to win any war at all.

If a person commits an evil action, but does not know that it is evil, it still does not change the fact that they committed an evil deed. 

...and if you truly believe it's impossible for a race to be so colossally incompetent at warfare to intentionally wage a battle that has a 100% casualty rate (but for the interference of one Commander Shepard), which you witness onscreen, yet still refuse to believe that very same race without the benefit of three centuries' education in naval warfare and the strategy and tactics of the enemy they're fighting, to wage a war with a 99% casualty rate (your own figure, which is still completely unsupported by available information and really constitutes a hasty generalization in the first place), you have some damned curious ideas about war and the race in question (the quarians) yourself.

Uh, you do know the Quarians win that battle if you don't betray them right?  As in, so long as they are not stabbed in the back by a supposed ally, their strategy has a 100% success rate?  They didn't drive the geth, the strongest military after the Turians, out of 4 systems because of dumb luck.

[Catamantaloedis]

Paragon Fury wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The Quarians attacked a baby equipped with a machinegun... the little baby wants to survive, so the little baby needs to supress this threath. During the Morning War the Geth were just infants, they did not comprehend the consequences of killing a whole species, for them, the Quarians went from being the Creators to be the boogeyman.

All fine and well. 

But this does not change the fact that the Geth essentially exterminated the Quarians as a race. Which so many seem to blame on the Quarians themselves, even though it makes no logical sense.

And you're blaming the child for defending itself. You've tried this argument before, and if memory serves, you didn't get very far that time either.

Quarians started the war. The Geth defended themselves, and having not progressed to the point where they would've had a Legion-esque level of intelligence and reasoning (IE: They had not developed "concious" yet) at that time, acted in the most methodical way possible - killing every Quarian who did not side with them. Since the Quarians have pretty much been lead by a bunch of ****-nuts for the 300 years or so, that means people died. A lot of people. Until the Quarians finally got the god damn point and hauled ass out of there, at which point they ceased to be a threat and the Geth stopped fighting them.

Everything we can find about the Geth-Quarian war, from both the Quarians themselves and the Geth tells the same tale - the Geth had no desire for the war, but they placed their survival ahead of the survival of the aggressors. They weren't going to let the Quarians live just because they came first.

If the entire or majority of the Quarian people/military had just thrown down their arms and surrendered or said "Ok, we were wrong. We'll stop killing you if you'll stop killing us", the Quarians wouldn't be as royally ****ed as they are today.

I am not blaming the Geth for self-defense. That would be nonsensical. I'm blaming the for exterminating the Quarians. It does not matter that the Quarians attempted it first. The Quarians would have been well past defeated, and the Geth would still be killing them for their numbers to be that low. 

[Raiil]

[quote]Catamantaloedis wrote...


[/quote]
They would have been no more advanced than the Native American tribes were. Sure, they had some basic Western contact, but they were not industrialized. They were not anywhere near as advanced.

[/quote]

Of course they weren't. That's not the point. Very few civilisations in the same time of development lost half of their population in that short span of time- good lord, even the Bubonic Plague only managed a third of Europe in the damn Dark Ages.

The point is, that through the carelessness and possible idiocy of a ruler, it is possible for a society to start wiping itself out. Context is generally historical, not time-sensitive. 

[Sisterofshane]

justafan wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If you truly believe that it is possible for two groups to fight a war, and one of those groups have a casualty rate of 99%, which is completely unheard of in the Mass Effect universe, except in the cases where the Krogan killed the Rachni, and, of course, the Reapers exterminated all previous galatic civilizations, then you have curious ideas about war. In no way, is it even necessary to kill 1/3 of a population to win any war at all.

If a person commits an evil action, but does not know that it is evil, it still does not change the fact that they committed an evil deed. 

...and if you truly believe it's impossible for a race to be so colossally incompetent at warfare to intentionally wage a battle that has a 100% casualty rate (but for the interference of one Commander Shepard), which you witness onscreen, yet still refuse to believe that very same race without the benefit of three centuries' education in naval warfare and the strategy and tactics of the enemy they're fighting, to wage a war with a 99% casualty rate (your own figure, which is still completely unsupported by available information and really constitutes a hasty generalization in the first place), you have some damned curious ideas about war and the race in question (the quarians) yourself.

Uh, you do know the Quarians win that battle if you don't betray them right?  As in, so long as they are not stabbed in the back by a supposed ally, their strategy has a 100% success rate?  They didn't drive the geth, the strongest military after the Turians, out of 4 systems because of dumb luck.

Actually, the only reason they are not completely wiped out is because of your interference with the Geth Dreadnought and the Reaper Signals.  The technology they developed becomes useless unless you sabotage the Geth.

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

SparkyRich wrote...

Yeah, let me tell you - lemmings kill millions of themselves throwing themselves into the water and drowning. Quarians killed millions of themselves trying to destroy their creations - when they let go, they stopped dying. Weird, then, that the Geth did not press the attack and wipe the Quarians from the universe if their intent was genocide.

Just because the Geth decided not to kill the last stragglers of the Quarian race does not mean that it was not genocide. The few millions that they let survive were and insignificant number compared to the mountains of dead.

There are 5 million people in my country. That's a lot of people. We're not insignificant next to the rest of humanity.

The few millions of Quarians the Geth let live is enough for the Quarians to be a race. They were not exterminated.

See, if we go by this logic, then you could say the Quarians never attempted genocide either.  Obviously there would be Xen type Quarians who would have kept a few geth programs for study.  Since there would still be geth after the war, by this logic the Quarians were not going for genocide.

Horrible comparison. The geth let the quarians flee and leave the planet. The quarians feared the very being of the Geth; their AI, and answered with attempted genocide. Geth programs for study (i.e. gain for the quarians) is not equaivelent to letting the species who tried to kill you run off into space.