11 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Hello, BSN. I hope this day finds all of you happy, healthy and hoarding loot with the best of them.


I had an idea for a Speech mechanic that could be used in an RPG like the DA series. 

In other RPGs (including DAO) the speech skills has been, in part, a bit of a cheat code. You have a high enough speech skill, then you can talk/persuade/intimidate/con your way out of any situation and get an automatic Win! scenario, just by selecting the dialogue option that has the Persuade option highlighted.

I liked this. Being able to talk my way past enemies or situations felt like I showed more skill and ability than pulling out my +5 Weapon of Smiting and taking down another boss/enemy through combat. But, at times, when you know how to build a character in a game with the speech options but who can also hold their own in other combat situations, then the game truly becomes a no-lose type situation. Deus Ex:HR - I'm looking at you.

And who wants to win all the time? Well, okay, we all do. But its nice to have a little challenge along the way.

So, I propose a dialogue system that will make using a speech skill like Persuade, but give it a little more challenge other than just clicking the dialogue option that is labeled as using the speech skill.


It may be best to start off with an example:

Generic NPC Guard #4 is blocking an entrance, an entrance your character needs entry to. You go up to them and begin a conversation. After some stonewalling, where the guard is saying None Shall Pass, you are brought up some dialogue options to choose from. One is labeled as using the Persuasion skill, which, of course, you use, since it is an automatic win. Your character says "I hear that the ladies down at <insert random brotherl name here> are having a special, two for one. Its a shame you are stuck here on guard duty!" At which point, the guard quickly lets you through so they can sneak down to said brothel and allows access to your player.

But... what if the guard was happily married? Or secretly in love with one of his fellow guardsman and had no interest in the brothel? Or has a cousin who works at the brothel, which makes visits to the brothel awkward... you get the drift. How does my character have omniscience when it comes to what dialogue option would work best?

In other words - what might be a totally valid method or line for getting one person to agree with you, might be totally counter-effective with another person. As silver-tongued as a character can be, it still can be impossible to convince someone to leave their post to visit a brothel, while for another it can be the magic button. Its not a matter of how good you are at convinving - its just a matter of knowing your mark.


So... what I propose is this. When you select the Persuade option, you are given a few different options: mention the brothel, make up an emergency why you need in, try and bribe the guard, act like you lost your badge/papers/etc. and you will be in serious trouble if you get caught without them again... you get the idea. Each persuasion option would net you the same result - you are let in without trouble or conflict.

But these different approaches would have varying chances of success. If the guard you are talking to is a fun loving, gambling and rude guard, they would be more open to the brothel story or a bribe, but less likely to take pity on you for your emergency or chance for trouble. SImilarly, if you are talking to a by-the-books, but sympathetic guard, the opposite might be true.

The problem is - how would you know this is true? 

This is where I would suggest "feeling out" investigate options. For each NPC you could persuade, there is a chance to talk with them and get some information. The higher your Persuasion skill, the more options you have for the investigate. For instance, a person with a low Speech skill would try and use an Investigate option, but would be shut down, with the guard saying they can't be bothered. A medium range skill character might give you one or two questions before the guard returns to their duties, while a master Speech player could converse a number of times.

With the investigate options, you should be able to "pin down" the character of the guard and identify what dialogue line would be the most successful to use.


Also, in a similar vein with what we've seen in Deus Ex:HR, NPCs would have an overall personality type, which would allow them to be more or less suceptible to Persuasion skills versus a more aggressive Intimidate skill. The initimadte skill would also have varying responses - you could threaten the guard with bodily harm, you could threaten to rat some behavior of theirs out to their boss, you could threaten to hurt their friends or loved ones... the list goes on and on.

BUT the Persuasion skill and the Intimidate skill would be separate. There may even be a third skill, called Logic, which is neither slick nor ham-fisted, but more "X+Y=Z, so why are you not taking another course of action?" A good example of what I was thinking for this could be some of the speech options that open up in Fallout with a high Science or Intelligence score (getting the Master to self-destruct, talking to Myron to getting the cure for Jet, etc.).

Point being - I could dump a ton of points into the Persuasion skill. But if the guard I am talking to is highly resistant to being Persuaded but is highly susceptible to being Intimidated, then I may not have enough Intimidate skill points to convince them. Or I put a ton of points into Logic, so I could convince the guard that given the density of the castle walls, the size of the catapults that my allies have lined up against the fortress and the number ratio of soliders on my side versus the soldiers in the castle, they would stand no chance and letting me through to discuss a diplomatic solution would save their life. But regardless, you'd have to investigate (or guess, I suppose) the right option to have the best chance of your Speech skill working.

As a side note, I would hope that random PCs (like the guard) could be generated randomly, where you could have three or four different guard types that could spawn in a certain situation, so that I don't automatically know the next time I play or when I look at a Walkthrough exactly what speech option to choose right out of the gate. This last part may be a little TOO ambitious, but I think it would keep things interesting, making sure you have to pay attention to the intereactions you have with characters.


Anyway, if any of you know me, you know my mad scientist mind likes to whip these things out and not really think through or explain all the details. So let me know what you think!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 01 mai 2012 - 11:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

How does my character have omniscience when it comes to what dialogue option would work best?

I've argued many times that the paraphrase system implicitly assumes this very thing, and that's why I don't like it.

I love that you're trying to tackle this.  At its core, the solution needs to be that the player can't know in advance of selecting any option whether it will work.  The obvious way to do that is to use a RNG to generate the result, but I'm open to the suggestion that the player should have access to information that might be helpful in improving his character's odds.

As a side note, I would hope that random PCs (like the guard) could be generated randomly, where you could have three or four different guard types that could spawn in a certain situation, so that I don't automatically know the next time I play or when I look at a Walkthrough exactly what speech option to choose right out of the gate. This last part may be a little TOO ambitious, but I think it would keep things interesting, making sure you have to pay attention to the intereactions you have with characters.

I would object to that.  When I replay a game, I want to play the same game.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 01 mai 2012 - 11:29 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

As a side note, I would hope that random PCs (like the guard) could be generated randomly, where you could have three or four different guard types that could spawn in a certain situation, so that I don't automatically know the next time I play or when I look at a Walkthrough exactly what speech option to choose right out of the gate. This last part may be a little TOO ambitious, but I think it would keep things interesting, making sure you have to pay attention to the intereactions you have with characters.

I would object to that.  When I replay a game, I want to play the same game.

Sylvius... how did I know this topic would attract you like a moth to the flame? 

I did not intend to truly play a different game, but perhaps think of it like this...

Lots of games can have you random combat encounter, where you can get into a fight with enemies. The type of enemies or their number or position can vary, but since you know you are in a set area or dungeon, you know the overall tactics on how to deal with that.

I would propose my speech mechanism to be similar to that. Same difficulty level, but with a few different random factors that could make Karl, a rough, unsympathetic womanizer guard be the guard you encounter in your first playthrough, or WIlliam, a nice, friendly, by the book guard. 

The guard's backstory or attitude would have no impact on the overall story, but since it can be randomized, like a random combat encounter, it will introduce a sense of "just clicking the right answe" since you've seen how it all plays out.

I realize that is a fine line of definition, but I think it would be an interesting twist, since all persuasion attempts in my history of video games has made a speech option as bland and predictable as oatmeal.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2012 - 12:10 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In other RPGs (including DAO) the speech skills has been, in part, a bit of a cheat code. You have a high enough speech skill, then you can talk/persuade/intimidate/con your way out of any situation and get an automatic Win! scenario, just by selecting the dialogue option that has the Persuade option highlighted.

I don't entirely agree. In fact, I have fond memories of one of my characters failing a couple of coercion checks in DA:O (one with disastrous results), and failing an intimidate check in DA2. It's not an instant win button unless you've maxed the potential of the skill and the target isn't incredibly difficult to 'beat', at which point you deserve to be pursuasive/intimidating.

While a more complex and challenging dialogue system might be fun, the nuances would be destroyed due to the paraphrases we have to deal with. It's incredibly hard to participate in a battle of words and witty repartee when you have only the vaguest idea of what your character is going to spout. At best the PC's 'arguments' would be presented to us topically and we'd select the most pertinent options rather than the things we deemed most well-phrased.

[Realmzmaster]

I understand the intent, but let's say you have 4 guards with different potential outcomes. If you use RNG to select the guard you still have a one in four chance of getting the same guard on all your playthroughs. Or if you have multiple characters the same guard can come up for all the characters. You could have a method to exclude a guard on the next playthrough and then reset after the fourth playthrough.

I can see the method being used on occasion but not for every persuade check and not on the main quest line unless there are other ways of completing the task such as sneaking past, killing the guard or as you mention intimidation .

The question is are you punishing the character (and gamer)  for becoming good or great at persuasion?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 02 mai 2012 - 12:59 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, I would greatly prefer an all text interface for this system. Or at the very least Deus Ex: HR, where there is a large amount of the actual response given with some auto-text sprinkled in.

The system would require a trashing of the paraphrasing, or at least a way to approach the paraphrase system that I have not seen or thought of before.

I did not mean to imply that Speech skills would always work, but rather that if you had a high enough skill with it, it is simply a matter of clicking 'Persuade' and it works. I was simply trying to make the mechanism of how we can get the Persuade option to work would be a little more interactive and intriguing.

P.S. The idea for the personality to be randomized would be only for small or side quest encounters, and even then, only for those NPCs who have no real impact on the story. Characters in the main quest and who are relevant to side quest plot points would have the same, set personalities, as the crazed serial killer can't be a happy-go-lucky personality on one play through. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2012 - 01:09 .

[Massakkolia]

Creating such a complex speech mechanic would nudge Dragon Age to a different kind of gameplay direction. Personally, I would welcome that change and Fast Jimmy makes some really interesting suggestions. I hope Bioware takes notes. Multiple persuasion options should definitely be included.

I actually think that persuasion is bit of an umbrella term for different types of influencing. Perhaps those types should be intimidation, charm and the suggested logic. Those three would cover the argument of threat, indulgence and intellect. Specializing in one of those (or a bit in everything) would not only make the gameplay more exciting but would actually give us an opportunity to further express our PC's personality through skill building.

I would, however, steer away from Deus Ex:HR like interface with flashing lights and colour coding for different personality types. It would immediately disengage me from the story. It does so even in Deus Ex where the interface actually makes sense due augmentation. Dragon Age shouldn't feel that mechanical. Personality types should be expressed purely through writing. It would be fun to try to figure out what appeals to different NPCs just through conversations.

As said by others, paraphrasing would have to go (or heavily altered), but frankly, it should have never existed in the first place.

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree with your opinion of Deus Ex: HR flashing lights. They were annoying and immesrion breaking. Sad thing is, oftentimes, it was impossible to tell the difference between an Alpha, Beta or Omega without them. It seems like everyone was kind of a ****** in that game, so I didn't see all that many varying personalities.

My only reason of bringing in the DE:HR reference was that, much like having Omegas/Alphas/Betas, certain NPCs could be more susceptible to Intimidation, Persuasion or Logic and more resistant to others and, hopefully, this would be conveyed with the investigate dialogue options presented.

I realize this whole system is asking a lot, given that there wasn't even a persuasion skill at all in DA2, but I think it would be an interesting take on the whole concept.

Oh, and if such a system is introduced, PLEASE don't throw in a perk/skill that will show the best result. Or, if it is allowable, make it HARD to unlock. In DE:HR, you could unlock the skill to win every persuasion conversation with only two Praxis points, right from the get go. And when you receive 20-30 throughout the game, its a small investment to make to have an Auto-win button for your conversations. Its incredibly difficult NOT to take it (when, by the end, I was SEARCHING for skills I could spend points on that would actually have some use).

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2012 - 12:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius... how did I know this topic would attract you like a moth to the flame? 

I did not intend to truly play a different game, but perhaps think of it like this...

Lots of games can have you random combat encounter, where you can get into a fight with enemies. The type of enemies or their number or position can vary, but since you know you are in a set area or dungeon, you know the overall tactics on how to deal with that.

I would propose my speech mechanism to be similar to that. Same difficulty level, but with a few different random factors that could make Karl, a rough, unsympathetic womanizer guard be the guard you encounter in your first playthrough, or WIlliam, a nice, friendly, by the book guard. 

The guard's backstory or attitude would have no impact on the overall story, but since it can be randomized, like a random combat encounter, it will introduce a sense of "just clicking the right answe" since you've seen how it all plays out.

I realize that is a fine line of definition, but I think it would be an interesting twist, since all persuasion attempts in my history of video games has made a speech option as bland and predictable as oatmeal.

I'm convinced.  I'll accept randomised NPC personalities.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm convinced.  I'll accept randomised NPC personalities.

Jackpot! I have changed Sylvius' mind about a game feature. Isn't that the BSN equivalent to peace in the Middle East?

In all seriousness, though, I have found some of the most analytical minds in regards to video game features and systems in all of my life here on these forums. If I had a scratch of video game programming knowledge, any drawing or artistic ability nad any established narrative experience, I'd be tempted to steal a lot of the ideas and feedback on these forums to create an uber-RPG that would be a truly amazing experience. 

That being said, if anyone, anywhere, could implement a Persuade/Intimidate/Logic speech options, I would be elated. We've seen Persuade and Initimidate before, of course, but I'd like to see a speech skill that is dependent on not being persuasive or charismatic, but simply outlining the flaws in a current course of action so flawlessly, that the NPC you are talking to has not choice but to agree.

These checks could be tied to a Charisma skill, with a secondary attribute reference for Strength for Intimidate, Cunning for Persuasion  and Intelligence for Logic. 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I love this idea, but I believe that it would require some kind of hybrid topical/dialog tree system in order to get the kind of variety and randomization necessary for it, without consuming massive amounts of zots. You'd need a system that allows for pre-defined actions with predictable results that feed back into the system. Dialog Trees are entirely contextual and rely on if-then-else type statements.

Whereas a topical or keyword system would be able to take into account a variety of personality traits that define how NPCs result to a particular approach (tone, skill, etc) and feed that back into a central mechanic (Disposition or a direct Success %) in a way that can be randomized and/or repeated for different NPCs. Having a system fully dependent on Dialog Trees requires everything to be written out by hand and created individually.

Of course then, finding out how to handle conversational flow might be a bit difficult. You'd probably need to do it in steps or segments where the keyword/open conversations modifies your chance at success depending on approach and related stats. The game rolls and what happens next depends on whether you've done a good enough job to succeed at the roll.

I'd also add a caveat that I don't want the investigational type options to be used as an excuse of excessive levels of info dump already apparent in BioWare games. I'm all for gameplay oriented storytelling, atmospheric storytelling, or ambient storytelling as Mr. Epler likes to call it.

Also, I feel like this article might be relevant. At the very least, it's a good read.

edit: Though now that I think about it, BioWare having all characters voiced takes out a lot of the time saving in a keyword or topical system - better just to do everything by hand in a dialog tree.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 03 mai 2012 - 04:27 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Very good article. Although I'm not sure I agree with their conclusion that topical solutions are the ideal. I love my dialogue trees.

They are work-intensive, sure. But they feel like real conversations, as opposed to me clicking a topic box and getting the same result from every NPC except the one person I need to use it with, you know?

Maybe there is a next level, a new approach no one has thought of yet, that will put the dialogue tree the way of the dodo.

In my theoretical system, though, the randomization would still be fairly set, the only random thing would be which random NPC you'd get - the tough, surly type; the meek, shy type; the opportunistic, mercantile type, etc. A truly organic and dynamic dialogue system may be truly impossible, with or without a voiced protagonist, without the assistance of A.I. much more advanced than exists today.