132 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

DivineAtropos wrote...

The best part of Condor is right where you spawn. Everything funnels into a killzone and you can kill it before it gets anywhere near you.

/topic

The word "Alamo" mean anything to you? That LZ is a death trap because there is no where to run. Maybe Bronze you can hold it w/o issue but beyond that I think you want to be elsewhere very badly.

[Horacio Zhao]

Tortugueta wrote...

ismadiis wrote...

mekabar77 wrote...

Horacio Zhao wrote...

yeah, that place has enemies coming from all direcction and it's the lowest of the map, really bad place to defense.

It's not open to all directions, its practically one face with 4 exits where enemies can come through. Your backside is always safe. Also having multiple exit routes is actually a good thing in case you get overrun.
If you get overrun at the top area from both directions you're done for, because there is nowhere to run.

Your point is flawed.

At the bottom, while you have four exits, they all require you to run into enemy fire to relocate. A true exit route would be either behind or to the side of where the enemies are coming from.

The top also does not have a true exit strategy. However it can be defended easily with the help of some basic strategy. I prefer two teams of two covering each side. One team above the L shaped pipe area and one team covering the extraction point side. The Extraction Side team can initially hold the first landing and fall back if they are overrun to the second landing. The team aboce the L pipe can also fall back to the Second landing if they come under too much pressure.

As most people have said, the hill is elevated ground and traditionally that gives you a tactical advantage not only in shooter games, but also in real life.

I think the L shaped area can be held with the right team with good players. I just  think the hill is easier to hold for the average player, esspecially in random gold games where teamwork isn't as natural as when you play with friends.

I agree completely. With one team of two in the plateau next to the landing zone and the other in the middle of the ramp, there is a large stretch for either team to fall back in case there is too much pressure. Moreover, if one of the teams is under light fire they can actually press forward to make even more room for the other team to fall further back.

Also, the real problem with the L is that it does not offer real cover because in both segments you are susceptible to fire coming from the direction parallel to the pipe. I have received shots constantly while bunkered there without being able to find the sweet spot that actually offers good cover.

Agree. with two teams locked down both side of the highest ground. It's easier to defense. And I think, at least on gold, if you gathered at the L zone, and there comes ravagers or rocket  troopers or engineers from three sides, you will be totally lock down, they can stay faraway in higher ground with fatal surpressing fire, meantime, bansees, brutes, phantoms, atlas, hunters, pyros get to press on to your team, and they are not that easy to kill before they move close with long range support at higher ground helping them.

[Horacio Zhao]

Sidney wrote...

DivineAtropos wrote...

The best part of Condor is right where you spawn. Everything funnels into a killzone and you can kill it before it gets anywhere near you.

/topic

The word "Alamo" mean anything to you? That LZ is a death trap because there is no where to run. Maybe Bronze you can hold it w/o issue but beyond that I think you want to be elsewhere very badly.

yep, on gold, when 4 banshees coming in with legions of brutes and ravagers, you will be fishes in a barrel.

[Core_Commander]

It's kind of funny really. Condor is clearly a set of turian fortification... and instead of getting upstairs to use it to their benefit, people choose to stay downstairs and storm it instead.

I kind of like how the map's form can follow function there.

[mekabar77]

Well YMMV, in my personal expericnce I tend to get overrun more in the top position, for the simple reason that there's no feasible escape route. Also the line of sight to approaching enemies tends to be more obstructed top than in the lower area, negating what would in real life be the actual advantage of an elevated position.
On the low postition however only the slope exit is truely elevated for incoming enemies and this disadvanatage can be easily overcome. The L-shape position does not only consist of the pipe, but has also some very conveniently placed crates. There are 3 positions that can complely block off LOS from the slope, negating approaching enemies ability to shoot over cover.

In the end it comes down to preference, but I would never ever try to hold top vs reapers. It's nothing short of a deathtrap.

Edit: I'm talking gold here, where enemies in later waves are generally too numerous and tough to kill as fast as they are coming. Unless you somehow have some uber-dps.

Modifié par mekabar77, 02 mai 2012 - 12:56 .

[Sinnerj117]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I can think of no less defensible place in Condor than the L shaped pipe.  So why then, do I need to invariably go rescue someone from it, get trapped there myself, and find the whole team down there in gold?

For that matter, why is the tactically excellent top never used?  I don't buy the nonsense about ammo boxes not being available, everyone can hit the one on the side of the ramp or by the Mako and make it back to the top before the next wave.

I also see the middle bunker being used, which has no less than three entry points to a small area and is a great way to get spanked from behind facing either direction.

On that note I question Turian bunker pre-fab manufacturers.


So help me understand, why do we never use the excellent top, nearly always use the questionable middle (wide spread, mind you) and invariably go to the L pipe to die?

I for one like using the high ground to give myself superior position over my enemies. Be they Reapers, geth, or Cerberus, my Infiltrator and Black Widow have a deadly advantage on the large hill near the "L" shaped pipe in Condor. It is here that I find the best strategic advantage over my enemies. You aren't alone.

[Star fury]

Horacio Zhao wrote...

Sidney wrote...

The word "Alamo" mean anything to you? That LZ is a death trap because there is no where to run. Maybe Bronze you can hold it w/o issue but beyond that I think you want to be elsewhere very badly.

yep, on gold, when 4 banshees coming in with legions of brutes and ravagers, you will be fishes in a barrel.

People don't bother trying Condor on silver, I'm not even starting about gold.

[tMc Tallgeese]

Amazing that so many of you find it to be a death trap. It's a great starting point each round, but even on gold I don't sit still on that map.

[tMc Tallgeese]

Amazing that so many of you find it to be a death trap. It's a great starting point each round, but even on gold I don't sit still on that map.

Whoops double post. 

Modifié par tMc Tallgeese, 02 mai 2012 - 01:03 .

[mekabar77]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

Amazing that so many of you find it to be a death trap. It's a great starting point each round, but even on gold I don't sit still on that map.

My thought exactly.

[ismadiis]

mekabar77 wrote...

Well YMMV, in my personal expericnce I tend to get overrun more in the top position, for the simple reason that there's no feasible escape route. Also the line of sight to approaching enemies tends to be more obstructed top than in the lower area, negating what would in real life be the actual advantage of an elevated position.
On the low postition however only the slope exit is truely elevated for incoming enemies and this disadvanatage can be easily overcome. The L-shape position does not only consist of the pipe, but has also some very conveniently placed crates. There are 3 positions that can complely block off LOS from the slope, negating approaching enemies ability to shoot over cover.

In the end it comes down to preference, but I would never ever try to hold top vs reapers. It's nothing short of a deathtrap.

I think it comes down to personal preference for some people. Some people might find the line of sight obstructed because of the vehicles in the center, but personally I have no problem finding targets through the rather large gaps. On the other side I don't think there is anything blocking line of sight.

The L-shape position has a long LOS to the landing zone, a reasonable LOS on the path to the left. However the path to the left center (i.e. to the right of the hill) is effectively a right angle, meaning no effective LOS to enemies coming around the corner. While you have LOS up the hill, it has been said time and again that you are at a lower height and it affects your ability to use crouching cover.

Also, someone raised a good point that you can get caught with crossfire from two sides. I wasn't sure how to explain this with words, so i created a simple diagram that hopefully explains what I mean by crossfire



The red arrows indicate the direction enemy fire is coming from. The teams are split into two A and B. The problem is that Team A is vulnerable to fire from Red Arrow 2 and Team B is vulnerable to fire from Red Arrow 1. This is based on the fact that cover only protects from one side.

As I said earlier, a good team can hold this position by keeping enemies far enough away. But I believe it is easier to hold the hill, especially in a public game.

Also, I don't try to hold the line against reapers on the hill, at least not until my death. In waves 7,8,9, thin out one side either by going 3-1 or with a well placed missile. Once the side with one guy gets under a lot of pressure,fall back into the empty space behind you. Plus I would think it is more difficult to hold the L shape against reapers unless you use two missiles.

Modifié par ismadiis, 02 mai 2012 - 01:22 .

[mekabar77]

ismadiis wrote...
Plus I would think it is more difficult to hold the L shape against reapers unless you use two missiles.

Point is I don't intend to hold the L shape at all. It's a great location for starting out and thining out waves, especially those that are coming from the landing zone. Once it gets to hot, which is easy to spot in advance, you can easily relocate, even without nuking your escape route.

[ismadiis]

mekabar77 wrote...

ismadiis wrote...
Plus I would think it is more difficult to hold the L shape against reapers unless you use two missiles.

Point is I don't intend to hold the L shape at all. It's a great location for starting out and thining out waves, especially those that are coming from the landing zone. Once it gets to hot, which is easy to spot in advance, you can easily relocate, even without nuking your escape route.

I agree that holding one place is not a good strategy and the best thing is to move after thinning out the enemy. I still think it is easier to fall back on the hill then it is to relocate from the L shape. At the L shape you still have to run forward into enemy fire if you want to relocate. I suppose you could focus on one side, clearing a path to relocate from, though if you are strong enough to clear a path before the other side overwhelms you, you should be good enough to handle the mutiple streams of enemie in my opinion.

On the hill you have some space to fall back into behind you, which means you can relocate without exposing yourself to more enemy fire.

That said, it still has other problems like the crossfire I mentioned above.

[mekabar77]

There we are again at the matter of preference. In one place you have to deal with crossfire, while the other may well turn into a no-way-out situation. That being said, I still find that crossfire to be on non-lethal level due to various obstructions and enemy dispersion in the place. Relocating down the slope or the 'parking lot' feels more like running a gauntlet to me in case you get encircled.

Modifié par mekabar77, 02 mai 2012 - 02:14 .

[BYC]

Players just don't have a sense of how the game is played.

As soon as I spawn, I run to the top. I love overwatch positions, and I try hard to get to them. Once the wave spawns, I usually run to the open area with the pipes to check there first. Because I know even though the top is important, on Condor it's not defensible, so then I'll move to the appropriate areas to attack/defend.

Condor is unique in the sense that moving around is better than not. Once you clear some enemies, it's good to form up and look for enemies. This is usually sound advice for any map, but on Condor it's more important since it's such a large map and getting separated often leads to disaster if people are not communicating on mics.

After a wave, I run to the nearest ammo station, and then run back towards the top. If I am all the way on the bottom, I'll stay down below with the team rather to run up, die, and get the team killed. Condor is great because it's a map that actually feels like a real battlefield and using real tactics is possible and desirable.

[PluralAces]

You should stay up top and watch both sides, including the ladder.

[Moonphos87]

I believe the false sense of safety and the need of players wanting to shoot the hell out of everything makes them believe the middle Turian platform is good, when its just a death trap.

Anyone whose played Condor at least once or twice would know that trash spawns from where we start off, and the "Rooster Nest" of a Turian Platform exactly overlooked that area, making trigger happy players think its a good spot to camp. The cover "Looks" solid, there are 3 exits to run if things get hairy, and an ammo crate that's just right behind the place...

False sense of security.

The L shape pipe doesn't even cover for the most part, unless I'm missing something here, the trash are firing from top to bottom, making the cover useless completely. And its a dead corner, if the trash all spawns together from every direction.

Modifié par Moonphos87, 02 mai 2012 - 02:40 .

[heavyplay]

ismadiis wrote...

I think it comes down to personal preference for some people. Some people might find the line of sight obstructed because of the vehicles in the center, but personally I have no problem finding targets through the rather large gaps. On the other side I don't think there is anything blocking line of sight.

The L-shape position has a long LOS to the landing zone, a reasonable LOS on the path to the left. However the path to the left center (i.e. to the right of the hill) is effectively a right angle, meaning no effective LOS to enemies coming around the corner. While you have LOS up the hill, it has been said time and again that you are at a lower height and it affects your ability to use crouching cover.

Also, someone raised a good point that you can get caught with crossfire from two sides. I wasn't sure how to explain this with words, so i created a simple diagram that hopefully explains what I mean by crossfire



The red arrows indicate the direction enemy fire is coming from. The teams are split into two A and B. The problem is that Team A is vulnerable to fire from Red Arrow 2 and Team B is vulnerable to fire from Red Arrow 1. This is based on the fact that cover only protects from one side.

As I said earlier, a good team can hold this position by keeping enemies far enough away. But I believe it is easier to hold the hill, especially in a public game.

Also, I don't try to hold the line against reapers on the hill, at least not until my death. In waves 7,8,9, thin out one side either by going 3-1 or with a well placed missile. Once the side with one guy gets under a lot of pressure,fall back into the empty space behind you. Plus I would think it is more difficult to hold the L shape against reapers unless you use two missiles.

I think you're missing the fact that that pipe is a fake cover? You can go into cover mode against it, but it's too low to block any shots. So effectively, your Team B is vulnerable to both arrow 1 and 2. Same for Team A. The only real cover you have in that area are the two stacks of crates at each end of the pipe.

Edit: And the ammo crate in that area has the worst respawn timer ever.

Modifié par heavyplay, 02 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[BYC]

Starting at top is great and I believe everybody should want it. But holding top is undesirable due to lack of cover or room to maneuver. It's better to start at top, clear out the fodder (marauders and cannibals) on one side (either the Evac area or downhill to the L shaped pipe and open area), and then retreating to there. I want the top because of great sight lines that can tell you where enemies have spawned very quickly, and great firing lanes. But once that purpose has been served, it's time to move.

My ideal setup is 2 on the top of the hill, and 2 in the Evac area. That should force the spawn into open area with L and LZ. There's a great pincer players can perform against enemies if they are in the L pipe. Just pound them with fire, hopefully clearing it out. What's great if that LZ spawn foes usually don't move in from behind into the middle area from LZ, they usually move to the L pipe. So now the downhill area can fire on them, and the players in the middle can just turtle up and act as bait. If it's going well, the players on the hill can move into the L pipe, and the middle players can join them for a quick kill.

Players should be focus firing on ravagers, engineers, rocket troopers and geth prime. Those are most dangerous on this map due to the size, so ranged > close. Others should be picking softer targets out as fast as possible (all un-shielded, unarmored targets, marauders, centurions, husks). If they have a large group of close up enemies, hit them hard, but retreat as needed. Being pinned in this map is really bad due to the number of angles of attacks.

[azrael_1289]

When we play Condor, we usually try to keep the entire region between the top of mountain to L shaped pipes free. Two at top and two in bottom and use the middle part to run if things get too messy in one end.

[FFLB]

This is an amusing topic. If we were to base this off of the players posting here, it would seem as though most prefer holding the hill, yet in my experience, we usually end up holding the pipes. Although, there is a split at times in which one or two players will stay on the hill while I and the other player(s) hold the pipes. The guys on the hill usually end up returning to the pipes during a wave because not enough enemies go through their lane. IMO, one player with relatively high damage or crowd-control can hold the hill fairly well while the other three hold off the bottom lanes.

It's even better if the group as a whole wants to run and gun, but the pipes are a good spot to start off at to find a compromise.

[Phazael]

The top point is the easiest to defend, if you do it by pairs, but its grenade central against certain enemies. Also, no one seems to want to defend it. The avenues of escape are adequite, but a little confined. You have to plow through a lot of dangerous ground to get to objectives if this camp is the one you try to hold.

The lower "pipe" camp works well with the right group, especially if you have a couple turrets in front drawing heat. Its mainly best against Cerb, since Atlases never seem to want to head down there and the only really huge danger is failing to pick up a phantom on the left flank. The best part about it is that its in easy reach of objectives and has an ammo box located right there. Its also the easiest one to escape from when you start getting overwhelmed.

The entrance point is great as long as you do not have to bail out of it, but almost no one holds that camp on PUG gold.

Wandering as a team works, but you need the right group and that crap will get you killed fast against Cerb in the phantom waves.

[ismadiis]

heavyplay wrote...

ismadiis wrote...

I think it comes down to personal preference for some people. Some people might find the line of sight obstructed because of the vehicles in the center, but personally I have no problem finding targets through the rather large gaps. On the other side I don't think there is anything blocking line of sight.

The L-shape position has a long LOS to the landing zone, a reasonable LOS on the path to the left. However the path to the left center (i.e. to the right of the hill) is effectively a right angle, meaning no effective LOS to enemies coming around the corner. While you have LOS up the hill, it has been said time and again that you are at a lower height and it affects your ability to use crouching cover.

Also, someone raised a good point that you can get caught with crossfire from two sides. I wasn't sure how to explain this with words, so i created a simple diagram that hopefully explains what I mean by crossfire



The red arrows indicate the direction enemy fire is coming from. The teams are split into two A and B. The problem is that Team A is vulnerable to fire from Red Arrow 2 and Team B is vulnerable to fire from Red Arrow 1. This is based on the fact that cover only protects from one side.

As I said earlier, a good team can hold this position by keeping enemies far enough away. But I believe it is easier to hold the hill, especially in a public game.

Also, I don't try to hold the line against reapers on the hill, at least not until my death. In waves 7,8,9, thin out one side either by going 3-1 or with a well placed missile. Once the side with one guy gets under a lot of pressure,fall back into the empty space behind you. Plus I would think it is more difficult to hold the L shape against reapers unless you use two missiles.

I think you're missing the fact that that pipe is a fake cover? You can go into cover mode against it, but it's too low to block any shots. So effectively, your Team B is vulnerable to both arrow 1 and 2. Same for Team A. The only real cover you have in that area are the two stacks of crates at each end of the pipe.

Edit: And the ammo crate in that area has the worst respawn timer ever.

You mean that the pipe does not offer protection because it is at a lower height to the entry routes? Yeah your right about that. It was a bit hard to explain that to the guy I was replying to, so I focused on explaining the crossfire. But your completely right in that the cover there does not work at all, mainly due to the fact it is at a lower height.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I like the middle bunker, as I am protected from all four sides when in cover up there unless something gets in. A team of two stationed here, and another two at the raised section can cover the whole map and catch enemies in a crossfire in the middle. If something gets in, I have three exits. Using this area on gold isn't as defensible as the top area, maybe as being in the center might make it more susceptible for being swarmed, but on silver it works great. Hunters and pyros are your biggest threat here as they can spawn near the pipes and come up the steps at the bottom if you are not paying attention, but reapers and cerberus are never a problem in my experience.

[eye basher]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I can think of no less defensible place in Condor than the L shaped pipe.  So why then, do I need to invariably go rescue someone from it, get trapped there myself, and find the whole team down there in gold?

For that matter, why is the tactically excellent top never used?  I don't buy the nonsense about ammo boxes not being available, everyone can hit the one on the side of the ramp or by the Mako and make it back to the top before the next wave.

I also see the middle bunker being used, which has no less than three entry points to a small area and is a great way to get spanked from behind facing either direction.

On that note I question Turian bunker pre-fab manufacturers.


So help me understand, why do we never use the excellent top, nearly always use the questionable middle (wide spread, mind you) and invariably go to the L pipe to die?

People playing the way they want to an not your way i sir am shocked and appalled what's the world coming too.