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VIDEO explanation of why I think there is only ONE true choice and what CONTROL and SYNTHESIS really are (updated post-EC)


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#226
LKx

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pro5 wrote...

In one of the post-PAX panel threads, I saw a paraphrased quote given by someone who interviewed the writers at the convention.

It went something like this: "Their [writers'] vision was pretty much what you saw, but with more focus on the detail. They wanted the players to use their knowledge of the lore and look for subtle differences in the endings to piece together what happened".

I decided to go and do just that, since we have nothing better to do anyway until the Extended Cut limps along.

This video is the result of my attempts:

and it's my new interpretation of the ending.

Warning - it's over 40 min long, so get comfortable if you decide to watch it.

Let me know what you think.


DinoSteve wrote...

op can you just post a conclusion?


I could, but I'd rather not.

The thing is, anything I say on this forum is just me saying something on this forum. The video is 40+ min long for exactly the very reason that I try to confirm every statement I make and answer every question I ask with a direct quote from the game.

The explanation of Synthesis is the juicy part in the video. If you stop before that moment - you have no idea what it is about. (skip to 28:00 if you absolutely don't want to watch the whole thing)


Yeah, Destroy is the only option with the current script

#227
filetemo

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This video is amazing, I watched it from start to end, it just hooked me. Thanks OP

#228
pro5

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nicethugbert wrote...

Those are not rephrases of my questions at all.  Your questions specifically relate to the reapers.  My questions are much broader.  Just because your companions are wrong does not mean you do not destroy the reapers.

Compare The Geth, EDI, and The Reapers.  The Geth spared the quarians because they did not have the processing power to calculate further action.  When The Geth achieve individuality and much greater processing power, they immediately extend their help to The Quarians.  They do not seek revenge.  They do not seek to eradicate organics even though it is clear that they have a good chance of doing so.  They are sapient but not emotional.  They merely wish to understand everything.  They have a tendency to help.  The Quarians created The Geth to be helpful computers.  The Geth retain this personality even as they advance.

Contrast that with EDI who becomes more human even as she becomes more advanced.  Contrast that with The Reapers, who are the most technologically advanced enity in the galaxy, except perhaps The Catalyst assuming it is not a Reaper.  In whose image was EDI created?  In who's image were The Reapers created?  What is their purpose, their nature?  Even though each reaper is a harvested advanced species with billions of networked organic minds, it is all subservient to a central directive embeded in them.

Every character you used in your video has a central directive:  TIM, control; Saren, synthesis, Hacket, destroy, etc.  For all Sheps ability to persuade or intimidate, he can't change anyone's central directive.  All he can do is show them that they are on a path away from it.


Well, one of the points of the video (if you watch it to the end, which you really should) is that TIM's and Saren's *central directives" were not really theirs to begin with. Their viewpoints were imposed on them by the Reapers. Therefore asking "what if there is no wrong or right" in this situation is indeed the first step to considering that the Reapers might be NOT wrong in their ideas. And this is a step I refuse to take on principle.

Mere thought of it reminds me of the scene from ME2 where we see a woman getting turned into organic paste while she is still alive. If Bioware wanted to surprise me with twisting realization that Reapers might not be abominations and accept their existence and methods as justified, they lost any chance at achieving this goal the moment they showed me that scene in all its horrible detail. The codex entries and plot points telling us millions of humans died to the Reapers every day in ME3 ... do not help much, either.

Sorry, but from where I am standing there is a clear and definite RIGHT here, and similarily obvious WRONG.

Your observations on how EDI and the geth are different from Reapers are correct, but to me they only confirm that the developers wanted to accentuate how we shouldn't trust the "Child's" attempt at clever semantic play and his strategical use of the word "synthetics" in place of the word "Reapers".

#229
pro5

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Bump to return from page 16.

Also a curious fact for news: Bioware's own Chris Priestly made a poll on HTL forums to see how many people *believe* in the Indoctrination Theory. 

Just him being randomely bored and curious, of course - nothing else to it, I'm sure... :innocent:

Modifié par pro5, 23 mai 2012 - 02:43 .


#230
MstrJedi Kyle

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Good stuff

#231
Alez Zinai

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pro5 - your point of view make me feel like lost ton of weight that was lying on my shoulders since time when I picked Destroy ending. Initially I choose it because it feels only one right choice and sacrificing Geth (there was already peace between them and Quarians in my playthrough) and EDI was only one thing that made me feel bad. Your presentation on what Geth and EDI support in this war taken from very game itself - made this sacrifice meaningful. Also thank you for reminding about what reapers did or do to species they conquer.
Спасибо

Modifié par Alez Zinai, 24 mai 2012 - 06:51 .


#232
Alez Zinai

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[speculation mode on]
if IT is true - it will be quite epic if Shepard that was successfully indoctrinated (Green and Blue one) will be opposed by EDI to fight off indoctrination :P
[speculation mode off]

Modifié par Alez Zinai, 24 mai 2012 - 06:58 .


#233
Bill Casey

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The enemy you were born to destroy
Eve, Shepard and Wrex...


We will bring your species into Harmony with our own
Harbinger...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 mai 2012 - 07:03 .


#234
Misguided Terran

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Personally I don't think there's any REAL choice. Give me a sec, yes I believe choosing Destroy is sticking to your guns and yada yada...

Let's say we're correct with the Indoc Theory, this would imply that there's more coming.

If this were the case, it'd be bad business to shunt out 2/3's of all Shepards, (roughly, not doing my math). In the end, I think the best case is for everyone to continue, via some means or another.

I personally believe that TIM wasn't fully indoctrinated, it's possible that he finally saw the signs, especially with the Prothean VI claiming he is. If you saw in one of the final Cerberus video files, he has asked a doctor to implant him with something. When he appears later with, "You're in my seat," there's no sign of anything happened to him. Perhaps, instead of trying to control the Reapers, he's made a last ditch attempt to save himself. It's entirely possible.

I'd go into more detail on my theory, but this might not be the thread for it.

#235
Alez Zinai

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Misguided Terran wrote...
....
I personally believe that TIM wasn't fully indoctrinated, it's possible that he finally saw the signs, especially with the Prothean VI claiming he is. If you saw in one of the final Cerberus video files, he has asked a doctor to implant him with something...

In terms provided by this explanation TIM definitly less indoctrinated then Saren - TIM has his own agenda and believes that he uses Reapers, though Saren believes that Reapers are right and thier way is only one possible 

#236
Misguided Terran

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Alez Zinai wrote...

Misguided Terran wrote...
....
I personally believe that TIM wasn't fully indoctrinated, it's possible that he finally saw the signs, especially with the Prothean VI claiming he is. If you saw in one of the final Cerberus video files, he has asked a doctor to implant him with something...

In terms provided by this explanation TIM definitly less indoctrinated then Saren - TIM has his own agenda and believes that he uses Reapers, though Saren believes that Reapers are right and thier way is only one possible 


Again, it's only a theory, I don't know why I said I believe.  I should have said, "It's possible."

But, again, it doesn't seem like TIM to kinda stumble this way.

Then again, I haven't really played the single-player in a long time, so I could be mistaken.

#237
Vigilant111

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Bill Casey wrote...

The enemy you were born to destroy
Eve, Shepard and Wrex...


We will bring your species into Harmony with our own
Harbinger...


I wonder why didn't I read this thread first and went straight into battle with synthesis/control supporters, its feels useless arguing with them cos they just SPECULATE everything because they have played some other game, or seen some other movies that show synthesis is alright, none of them have actually seen what they imagined on the ME3 screen, how can they be so sure???

From what I have seen, destroy advocates seem to be quite uniform in terms of what the outcome would be, but synthesis supporters's views often span everywhere cos no one quite know what it will actually do, yes very creative, but not real, at least not yet

Modifié par Vigilant111, 24 mai 2012 - 09:44 .


#238
nightcobra

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Misguided Terran wrote...

Personally I don't think there's any REAL choice. Give me a sec, yes I believe choosing Destroy is sticking to your guns and yada yada...

Let's say we're correct with the Indoc Theory, this would imply that there's more coming.

If this were the case, it'd be bad business to shunt out 2/3's of all Shepards, (roughly, not doing my math). In the end, I think the best case is for everyone to continue, via some means or another.

I personally believe that TIM wasn't fully indoctrinated, it's possible that he finally saw the signs, especially with the Prothean VI claiming he is. If you saw in one of the final Cerberus video files, he has asked a doctor to implant him with something. When he appears later with, "You're in my seat," there's no sign of anything happened to him. Perhaps, instead of trying to control the Reapers, he's made a last ditch attempt to save himself. It's entirely possible.

I'd go into more detail on my theory, but this might not be the thread for it.


IF IT is true, then destroy would be the correct choice, as in, shepard not succumbing to indocrination.
while control and synthesis would be falling to indocrination.

However, this doesn't mean that the extended cut would only be for the people that picked the destroy option, more like the ones who picked control/synthesis would be able to pull a "benezia" ,ie, fight off indocrination long enough to return to the fight and defeat the reapers dying afterwards.  

#239
pro5

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nightcobra8928 wrote...

Misguided Terran wrote...

Personally I don't think there's any REAL choice. Give me a sec, yes I believe choosing Destroy is sticking to your guns and yada yada...

Let's say we're correct with the Indoc Theory, this would imply that there's more coming.

If this were the case, it'd be bad business to shunt out 2/3's of all Shepards, (roughly, not doing my math). In the end, I think the best case is for everyone to continue, via some means or another.

I personally believe that TIM wasn't fully indoctrinated, it's possible that he finally saw the signs, especially with the Prothean VI claiming he is. If you saw in one of the final Cerberus video files, he has asked a doctor to implant him with something. When he appears later with, "You're in my seat," there's no sign of anything happened to him. Perhaps, instead of trying to control the Reapers, he's made a last ditch attempt to save himself. It's entirely possible.

I'd go into more detail on my theory, but this might not be the thread for it.


IF IT is true, then destroy would be the correct choice, as in, shepard not succumbing to indocrination.
while control and synthesis would be falling to indocrination.

However, this doesn't mean that the extended cut would only be for the people that picked the destroy option, more like the ones who picked control/synthesis would be able to pull a "benezia" ,ie, fight off indocrination long enough to return to the fight and defeat the reapers dying afterwards.  


Agreed.

I'll re-iterate my earlier post here:

pro5 wrote...

I doubt those choices are going to mean complete and immediate indoctrination - that would be too cruel and unfair to those who chose Control or Synthesis purely for the sake of the Geth and EDI.

I've posted somewhere above in this thread an example of how I would like them to handle that - Shepard is partially controlled by the Reapers, but in critical moments the player gets a chance to make those Renegade/Paragon interrupts to "overpower" the indoctrination briefly through the sheer remaining force of his will.

This has serious potential for some of the greatest emotional moments in gaming history - imagine facing your LI begging you to stop and come to your senses! And I believe Bioware has the creative potential to see that and make it come true.


Modifié par pro5, 24 mai 2012 - 02:41 .


#240
pro5

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Back from page 14.

#241
Misguided Terran

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I agree with pro5, why I say Destroy wasn't the true and only option, I didn't mean that in the tense of Shepard throwing off the indoctrination.

In my theory, Admiral Hackett, seeing that his forces were wiped out, and the Reapers pushing them back, ordered a hasty assault for the Citadel, bumrushing the Crucible towards the station. What follows astonishes everyone, as the arms open themselves, reacting to an automated signal sent to the keepers.

Perhaps what follows is that indoctrination is thrown off for many, and the Reapers weakened. This opens up the middleground between the Deus Ex Machina and the Conventional Win.

But most importantly, no matter what happens, Shepard must be broken from the trance. This does open up a new bit of character development. Guilt. Does Shepard feel remorse for electing to sacrifice the Geth, who struggled for centuries to gain their right to live? Perhaps they feel foolish for thinking they could have controlled the Reapers, possibly taking untold power and going mad. Or by using synthesis, eradicating everyone's own, unique make up, in order for the Reapers to play nice.

This could introduce even further writing, as Shepard, alone and desperate, must make their way to assist in the final blow, as the ghosts of his past come back to haunt him, mostly his former allies. This could help or hinder him, as Mordin alerts him to possible ambushes, Legion suggesting a safer route, or even Wrex, throwing Shepard off by appearing and assaulting them.

Why I mentionthe ghosts is the fact that their voices are there during the dreams, and possibly, with the side effects of the indoctrination, they are able to manifest slightly more, perhaps they're Shepard's imagination, or perhaps they truly are able to live on and give their Commander further hope.

Modifié par Misguided Terran, 27 mai 2012 - 01:14 .


#242
BatmanTurian

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Misguided Terran wrote...

I agree with pro5, why I say Destroy wasn't the true and only option, I didn't mean that in the tense of Shepard throwing off the indoctrination.

In my theory, Admiral Hackett, seeing that his forces were wiped out, and the Reapers pushing them back, ordered a hasty assault for the Citadel, bumrushing the Crucible towards the station. What follows astonishes everyone, as the arms open themselves, reacting to an automated signal sent to the keepers.

Perhaps what follows is that indoctrination is thrown off for many, and the Reapers weakened. This opens up the middleground between the Deus Ex Machina and the Conventional Win.

But most importantly, no matter what happens, Shepard must be broken from the trance. This does open up a new bit of character development. Guilt. Does Shepard feel remorse for electing to sacrifice the Geth, who struggled for centuries to gain their right to live? Perhaps they feel foolish for thinking they could have controlled the Reapers, possibly taking untold power and going mad. Or by using synthesis, eradicating everyone's own, unique make up, in order for the Reapers to play nice.

This could introduce even further writing, as Shepard, alone and desperate, must make their way to assist in the final blow, as the ghosts of his past come back to haunt him, mostly his former allies. This could help or hinder him, as Mordin alerts him to possible ambushes, Legion suggesting a safer route, or even Wrex, throwing Shepard off by appearing and assaulting them.

Why I mentionthe ghosts is the fact that their voices are there during the dreams, and possibly, with the side effects of the indoctrination, they are able to manifest slightly more, perhaps they're Shepard's imagination, or perhaps they truly are able to live on and give their Commander further hope.


I REALLY like this idea. That is some great stuff!

#243
Asharad Hett

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I've finally watched this.   It's not the most impressive production, but I like what you have done.


1.  You show the balance of characters who would chose destroy, control, or synthesis.  Only villians choose control or synthesis, and they were indoctrinated.
2.  You show the insanity of TIM, his anger, and how dilusional control is.
3.  You show how the heroes (Cerberus and Alliance) are fighting each other, doing exactly what the reapers want.
4.  You show that "Shepard was always going to stay true to his beliefs" -- destroy
5.  You show that Geth and EDI are willing ot risk death to defeat the reapers.
6.  You show the difference between "CAN" and "WILL", when starkid says you "can" destroy all AI including the Geth.
7.  You show that the non-reaperized Geth intend no harm.  That they do not judge organics.   They wish to ensure that Shepard is not the last organic to deal with Geth peacefully.  You show that Synthesis isn't necessary for peace.
8.  You show that destroy is painted the worst, although the balance of the galaxy would choose it.
9.  You show that synthesis involves dissolving organic matter to build a reaper ("a hybrid of organic and inorganic material").  You show that reapers are "transcended flesh, billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within machine bodies, each a nation".   Then you show how the reapers "help" organics ascend.
10.  You show the starchild is one of "them/us/we/reapers"
11.  You show that the Reapers are the pinnacle of evolution.   Reapers are the result of synthesis.
12.  You show the psychological mind game that Bioware has played on us.  And it was successful in screwing with our minds.

Did I miss anything?

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 27 mai 2012 - 05:18 .


#244
pro5

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Asharad Hett wrote...

1.  You show the balance of characters who would chose were predisposed to choose destroy, control, or synthesis.  Only villians choose control or synthesis, and they were indoctrinated.

As some people who disagreed with me here were quick to point out, I can't claim to know for sure what everyone would choose if they were standing in the Catalyst's chamber based solely on the given quotes. While I find it extremely unlikely that, say, Garrus would suddenly decide adopting TIM's views is a good idea when presented with the same options, it is nevertheless a possibility we must consider. Of course, it works both ways - if you're allowing an unlikely possibility of Garrus changing his mind, you can't ignore the possibility of Saren changing his mind. Saren accepted the Reapers' evolutional superiority in ME1 because he did not see any other way of surviving them, and if he was presented with an instant-Destroy-all-Reapers button at the time (and if we forget about him being indoctrinated for a moment), it's possible he would have chosen to use it.

Other significant reasons for the starting build-up sequence of quotes:

- It serves as a reminder that the Child - a character introduced in the final scene of the game, a character with
~15 lines of dialog - is what ultimately changes (or attempts to change) people's minds and sways them to pick Control or Synthesis. Up until that final scene, Shepard's goal is set firmly - he must get rid of the Reapers once and for all. All attempts of TIM to suggest Control as an option throughout ME3 had been consistenly rebuked by Shepard until he got blasted by the Harbinger (Thessia dialog between them is very telling here, I now regret not using those quotes).

- It encourages the viewer to consider the ending from a writer's perspective. All spoken dialog in the game does not exist in a vacuum, it was written by one of the writers and then went through a peer review process before being finalized and implemented in the game. It therefore seems to me extremely unlikely that Synthesis and Control were considered as real *good* choices for Shepard by the writing team - otherwise, someone would notice the fact that voices in player's crew work to guide him towards Destroy, while only villains - including Saren from ME1, Harbinger from ME2 ("Evolution cannot be stopped", "We are your genetic destiny") and Kai Leng from ME3 ever mention "evolution" as a preferable solution to the Reaper problem.

- Most important reason, though, is the one you mentioned - everyone who openly speaks for Control and Synthesis were indoctrinated. This is a very significant thing to note, because it makes it irrefutable that Control and Synthesis are ideas promoted by the Reapers all along.


Asharad Hett wrote...

2.  You show the insanity of TIM, his anger, and how dilusional control is.
3.  You show how the heroes (Cerberus and Alliance) are fighting each other, doing exactly what the reapers want.


One of the more subtle but important goals of the "Shepard vs TIM" sequence is to prepare the viewer for the upcoming explanation of the idea behind Control. This idea - willing use of Reaper technology to build one's future - is first introduced in the series by Legion, who tells us during ME2 how "The Old Machines" offered the "gifts" of their technology to the Geth and the Heretics. The same idea is voiced by TIM at the conclusion of ME2 when arguing for preserving the Collector Base, for using the enemy's technology against him. Note that at one point during the argument he even uses the same word, "gift": "This base is a gift. We can't just destroy it!". He continues to elaborate on the same idea throughout ME3, culminating with his words: "...and the Reapers will do the same for us again, a thousandfold!" mere moments before Shepard faces the Choice.

Modifié par pro5, 27 mai 2012 - 03:06 .


#245
dreamgazer

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Misguided Terran wrote...

I agree with pro5, why I say Destroy wasn't the true and only option, I didn't mean that in the tense of Shepard throwing off the indoctrination.

In my theory, Admiral Hackett, seeing that his forces were wiped out, and the Reapers pushing them back, ordered a hasty assault for the Citadel, bumrushing the Crucible towards the station. What follows astonishes everyone, as the arms open themselves, reacting to an automated signal sent to the keepers.

Perhaps what follows is that indoctrination is thrown off for many, and the Reapers weakened. This opens up the middleground between the Deus Ex Machina and the Conventional Win.

But most importantly, no matter what happens, Shepard must be broken from the trance. This does open up a new bit of character development. Guilt. Does Shepard feel remorse for electing to sacrifice the Geth, who struggled for centuries to gain their right to live? Perhaps they feel foolish for thinking they could have controlled the Reapers, possibly taking untold power and going mad. Or by using synthesis, eradicating everyone's own, unique make up, in order for the Reapers to play nice.

This could introduce even further writing, as Shepard, alone and desperate, must make their way to assist in the final blow, as the ghosts of his past come back to haunt him, mostly his former allies. This could help or hinder him, as Mordin alerts him to possible ambushes, Legion suggesting a safer route, or even Wrex, throwing Shepard off by appearing and assaulting them.

Why I mentionthe ghosts is the fact that their voices are there during the dreams, and possibly, with the side effects of the indoctrination, they are able to manifest slightly more, perhaps they're Shepard's imagination, or perhaps they truly are able to live on and give their Commander further hope.


I REALLY like this idea. That is some great stuff!


Any time someone mentions the ghosts of Shepard's past aiding him/her during the scene, my ears perk up.  It somewhat relates to the ideas at work in this, which are highly affective (and effective):

 

#246
dreamgazer

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I think I've already commented in this thread, but it needs to be seen by the people who say that the ending has no association with the rest of the series. IT or not, this is how the lore matters to the conclusion, and how the universe sets precedents for the options at-hand.

I still defend the complexity of the final scene for that very reason, even if I have my own issues with the overall execution.

#247
pro5

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Bump from page 12.

#248
Bill Casey

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www.youtube.com/watch
Liara: They want what I'm here for... what we're all here for. The Protheans came close to defeating the Reapers. They had plans to destroy them, but ran out of time.



www.youtube.com/watch
Illusive Man: Harness their very essense to bring humanity to the apex of evolution.



www.youtube.com/watch
Prothean VI: We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated.

#249
PsyrenY

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pro5 wrote...

- It serves as a reminder that the Child - a character introduced in the final scene of the game, a character with
~15 lines of dialog - is what ultimately changes (or attempts to change) people's minds and sways them to pick Control or Synthesis. Up until that final scene, Shepard's goal is set firmly - he must get rid of the Reapers once and for all. All attempts of TIM to suggest Control as an option throughout ME3 had been consistenly rebuked by Shepard until he got blasted by the Harbinger (Thessia dialog between them is very telling here, I now regret not using those quotes).


That is where you are wrong. The child didn't need 15 lines of dialogue to convince me to examine the other options... he only needed one.

"Including the Geth."

That was where my Shepard slammed on the brakes.

#250
dreman9999

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Optimystic_X wrote...

pro5 wrote...

- It serves as a reminder that the Child - a character introduced in the final scene of the game, a character with
~15 lines of dialog - is what ultimately changes (or attempts to change) people's minds and sways them to pick Control or Synthesis. Up until that final scene, Shepard's goal is set firmly - he must get rid of the Reapers once and for all. All attempts of TIM to suggest Control as an option throughout ME3 had been consistenly rebuked by Shepard until he got blasted by the Harbinger (Thessia dialog between them is very telling here, I now regret not using those quotes).


That is where you are wrong. The child didn't need 15 lines of dialogue to convince me to examine the other options... he only needed one.

"Including the Geth."

That was where my Shepard slammed on the brakes.

Yet nothing is pointing to anythign to support that the sarchild is telling the truth...