312 réponses à ce sujet

[Bizantura]

Saw you video a few times. If Bioware can trace our choises it would be interesting to know how much people will go for the faustian deal of synthesis/control. Isn't our society on the verge of being able to implement/merge with technology within a decade or so? Of course I am also bias to the destroy option because for me that is the only right option with the choises given.
Cudos for all the hard work by the way.

[pro5]

RMP _ wrote...

Or, forget the scenes for control and synthesis, those choices could have just ended with a mission failure screen. Instead of any of that, we got a scene that makes it look they they were good choices.

If they showed the real consequences, then it wouldn't be a mindgame, would it? It woudl be OBVIOUS and their design for "speculation from everyone" would not work.

[RMP _]

pro5 wrote...

One argument I've heard people make over and over again that I'd like to discuss... "So that means there's just ONE choice, how can that be a good thing? That makes those 2 other choices just masked game-over screens. That sucks!"

However, what those people don't seem to realize is that it's possible to have different kinds of "game over screen".

If it's just a message informing us we've lost, it sucks. Sure.

But imagine this for a second...

A 10-minute long compilation of cinematic scenes showing your Shepard becoming indoctrinated, and out of your (player) control. He goes on to talk to people, betray his friends, backstab his allies - and you cannot do anything to stop him, watching in horror. You've given up your control when you made that Choice and surrendered to the Reapers.

Then, at the end of those 10 minutes, you are finally standing in front of your LI, between her and the button that destroys the Reapers and saves the galaxy - the only true means to stop them (I'm assuming here the ending cinematics are a lie). He/she tries to reason with you, crying and begging you to stop.

And then, as "you" are about to kill her, if you have a high enough Reputation score, you get an opportunity to make that final Paragon or Renegade interrupt, fighting off the indoctrination for one final moment, to tell you LI you love him/her and use your weapon to blow your brains out. Saving the galaxy in one final push of willpower.


... Wouldn't THAT be awesome, people?

This ending has so much POTENTIAL, it makes me want to scream. I just hope Bioware doesn't waste it...

Maybe if they had put that in the game to begin with, and they intended that there was only one correct choice, definitely not as something you'll get months later as download content. With destroy destroying the Geth, it doesn't make it feel like a 'right' choice.

They made it clear the EC is just more information, but I doubt it will reveal control and synthesis as indoctrinated, bad choices. They already said they are happy with the ending and they won't be changing it. If it weren't for the level of fan outrage, they wouldn't be doing the EC at all. Plus, every impression I get is that it is Bioware's intention to make all three choices viable ways of dealing with the reaper threat.

[BiancoAngelo7]

uh....isn't this basically a less detailed view of Indoctrination Theory? The entire video boiled down to: Good guys say blow up the reapers, bad guys say control or synthesis.

No offense to OP, the video is a good effort and probably took a lot of time, but an entire video to just say ONE of the points that Indoctrination Theory already says????

uhm.....ok? :/

[Bill Casey]

Harbinger - We Are Your Genetic Destiny

Harbinger - Evolution cannot be stopped

Harbinger - Embrace Perfection

Modifié par Bill Casey, 06 mai 2012 - 09:59 .

[Dendio1]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

uh....isn't this basically a less detailed view of Indoctrination Theory? The entire video boiled down to: Good guys say blow up the reapers, bad guys say control or synthesis.

No offense to OP, the video is a good effort and probably took a lot of time, but an entire video to just say ONE of the points that Indoctrination Theory already says????

uhm.....ok? :/

Unlike indoctrination Theory this doesn't assume that everything after the beam hit was a dream. That alone makes it much easier to take seriously.

The OP uses clips to speak for him. IT did the same, but those clips were doctored. These clips are raw.

Modifié par Dendio1, 07 mai 2012 - 01:14 .

[Dendio1]

The biggest reveal imo was the OP's breaking down synthesis.

Star kid says: Synthesis is the final evolution of life
Harbinger/Soverign: We are your genetic destiny
Legion: The reapers are more your future than ours

The evidence for Synthesis converting shepard into a reaper is told to us directly in game

One could also reach and bring up Anderson hinting that the beam was used to process humans and possibly build a second reaper. Could the synthesis beam be linked to that goal?

[Necrotron]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

A 40-minute video to explain "Synthesis = Saren = EEEEEVIL!" Why do you need that much time to commit association fallacy?

Nothing new to see here.

Actually, it's a forty minute video explaining why the rest of the ME series totally negates the Control and Synthesis options.

They are literally/figuratively everything that you have been fighting against for nearly 100 hours of gameplay.

And just leaves destroy, which is so downright evil that the 'best' ending is to die trying.

[ReXspec]

Optimystic_X wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I enjoyed it, but I also have to admit bias because I also see destroy as the only option, now all that's needed is those who disagree and turned off the video to also admit "bias".

Of course I'm biased against logical fallacies. 

I don't need a full 40 minutes to identify them either.

Come on, dude... you know better then that.  If you are going to present a logical argument against something, you may as well do the opposing side the courtesy of observing and listening your oppositions case then presenting a logical argument.  Not doing so makes you seem like a pretentious, rise-inducing ****** that honestly believes he is right, and everyone else is wrong.

As for the video, the video isn't bad.  It actually tries to make sense of what Bioware f*cked up by using in-game lore to explain it.  My only hitch is the Narrative Coherency and Circular Logic problems that are still a blaring issue.  To me, Bioware could have made this go A LOT smoother rather then have players go back, put to together the pieces, and leave the aforementioned issues to speculation on how they came about.

[Dasha Dreyson]

Regardless of how I feel about the ending, this was a very nice presentation.

[HBC Dresden]

This is going in my sig.

Also, BioWare needs to make a patch that allows that ending Geth Prime to show up if Shepard achieves peace between the quarians and geth.

Modifié par HBC Dresden, 07 mai 2012 - 04:36 .

[brickheart]

Still think this is a thought provoking interpretation. Even if you end up disagreeing-- it is worth watching. It will make you question the motives of indoctrinated characters and contrast those motives with the ending options. It is even done without the use of any part of the IT.

It just puts key thematic quotes together from all three Mass Effect games to show a possible interpretation of all three ending choices.

[pro5]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

uh....isn't this basically a less detailed view of Indoctrination Theory? The entire video boiled down to: Good guys say blow up the reapers, bad guys say control or synthesis.

No offense to OP, the video is a good effort and probably took a lot of time, but an entire video to just say ONE of the points that Indoctrination Theory already says????

uhm.....ok? :/

Did you miss the part about Synthesis? And the final explanations of what exactly Control and Synthesis are and how they are EXACTLY what the Reapers have been manipulating the player towards the whole trilogy?

IT concentrates on the weirdness and surreality of the final scene, and then bogs itself down in looking for tiny details that may mean something or may mean nothing.

My presentation uses logic, reason and in-game evidence to arrive to the same conclusion as IT. If you don't think it's significant - mmmokay, but I'll have to disagree.

Modifié par pro5, 07 mai 2012 - 06:05 .

[From Tuchanka with Love]

Is this serious?

Modifié par From Tuchanka with Love, 07 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[Ultra Prism]

I finished ME1 and tells me that Saren wanted sythesis and mentioned the pinnacle of existance

[brickheart]

pro5 wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

uh....isn't this basically a less detailed view of Indoctrination Theory? The entire video boiled down to: Good guys say blow up the reapers, bad guys say control or synthesis.

No offense to OP, the video is a good effort and probably took a lot of time, but an entire video to just say ONE of the points that Indoctrination Theory already says????

uhm.....ok? :/

Did you miss the part about Synthesis? And the final explanations of what exactly Control and Synthesis are and how they are EXACTLY what the Reapers have been manipulating the player towards the whole trilogy?

IT concentrates on the weirdness and surreality of the final scene, and then bogs itself down in looking for tiny details that may mean something or may mean nothing.

My presentation uses logic, reason and in-game evidence to arrive to the same conclusion as IT. If you don't think it's significant - mmmokay, but I'll have to disagree.

I wouldn't say you arrive at the same conclusion as IT. Most of IT claims that Shepard never left Earth, then it tries to explain the ending as a dream. Now your interpretation does not rebuke the idea that the ending is a dream, but the conclusions are vastly different. 

I rather think that Indoctrination is supposed to make you feel as though you are living in your dreams. So at the end they blurr reality with dream, but that does not mean that Shepard is sleeping on Earth. It just means that Reapers subjugate people via the subconscious. No one is actually aware of being indoctrinated until they are convinced (much like in a dream bad continuity/logic makes sense until it is pointed out to you; ie Saren and TIM realizing they were indoctrinated after conversing with Shepard) by an outside source they are indoctrinated. 

Shepard is clearly indoctrinated at the end, the question becomes just how much. Is he so indoctrinated that she/he can no longer tell if she/he is awake or asleep? Or is she/he experiancing a blurring of reality common in all other Mass Effect games? 

I am partial to the latter, but even with this caviat to the ending-- there isn't enought clousure.

Modifié par brickheart, 07 mai 2012 - 06:58 .

[pro5]

From Tuchanka with Love wrote...

Is this serious?

If you're asking whether the original post is a joke - no, it's quite serious.

If you're asking something else, please clarify your question.

[Dendio1]

I dont see how shepard could survive an explosion the scale that we see. I dont see how shepard can be flung across the citadel on to one of the arms, or re enter earths atmosphere.

The only way down is the way he came up, but the beam was a one way trip. As unrealistic as waking up on earth is, its the only feasible answer outside of robot goku showing up and flying shepard out of there.

The fire clearly envelops the entire ring of the citadel as the gigantic arms are separated and deal with lesser explosions.

Modifié par Dendio1, 07 mai 2012 - 07:23 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How does Shepard end up on the ground again? That's my question? And in plot armor? I could have sworn she had dragon blood armor on which had a helmet. *space magic*

Yeah, if the endings are literal, BW screwed the pooch on the series. All indications are that they are literal.

[soldo9149]

Well I watched the video finally, you try make a point with alot of video clips from the three games which would take alot of work on your end but I still disagree with you and I will keep thinking all three endings are that bad. You have seen, read, or watched videos for many reason why it is not a good ending so I will not take anymore of your time.

[pro5]

brickheart wrote...

I wouldn't say you arrive at the same conclusion as IT. Most of IT claims that Shepard never left Earth, then it tries to explain the ending as a dream. Now your interpretation does not rebuke the idea that the ending is a dream, but the conclusions are vastly different. 

I rather think that Indoctrination is supposed to make you feel as though you are living in your dreams. So at the end they blurr reality with dream, but that does not mean that Shepard is sleeping on Earth. It just means that Reapers subjugate people via the subconscious. No one is actually aware of being indoctrinated until they are convinced (much like in a dream bad continuity/logic makes sense until it is pointed out to you; ie Saren and TIM realizing they were indoctrinated after conversing with Shepard) by an outside source they are indoctrinated. 

Shepard is clearly indoctrinated at the end, the question becomes just how much. Is he so indoctrinated that she/he can no longer tell if she/he is awake or asleep? Or is she/he experiancing a blurring of reality common in all other Mass Effect games? 

I am partial to the latter, but even with this caviat to the ending-- there isn't enought clousure.

I was referring to the more general "conclusion" - that: a) Shepard is being manipulated (and possibly, being indoctrinated) into making the wrong choice; and Destroy is the only "good" choice.

And yes, you bring up good points about how the indoctrination might work from Shepard's perspective.

soldo9149 wrote...

Well I watched the video finally, you try make a point with alot of video clips from the three games which would take alot of work on your end but I still disagree with you and I will keep thinking all three endings are that bad. You have seen, read, or watched videos for many reason why it is not a good ending so I will not take anymore of your time.

Perfectly understandable, I can relate to your position.

The ending we got is very different from the promises Bioware made - this interpretation doesn't really do anything to atone for that. What it does is put the pieces together so the endings start to make sense from a rational point of view. If the twist was intended, it also turns out to be actually good writing (as opposed to ... well you know). And, no matter what, Bioware still didn't do a very good job at delivering the ending properly.

Modifié par pro5, 07 mai 2012 - 11:19 .

[pro5]

bump

[Coder4Hire]

Nice

[Dendio1]

The sovereign theme was used very well. Its a mixture of wonderment and horror.

A poignant combination of Submission and Terror.

Modifié par Dendio1, 07 mai 2012 - 06:19 .