312 réponses à ce sujet

[pro5]

Back from page 4.

[pro5]

Aaaand it's time for another bump, bringing back from page 5.

Also, I'm cheating and changing title to attract new audience.

[macrocarl]

Nice video! I agree with IT. Even if people aren't into IT you have to admit that something is wonky, no?
I think the EC will hopefully expand on a literal interpretation for those who think the ending is way to bleak but still let people who have worked their internet fingerbrains to the bone coming up with IT

[pro5]

back from page 9.

[Huuntelaar]

I've thought this over and I really think this is the only possible explanation for what the creators had in mind.

It also perfectly explains why they would cut the ending so short and give us so little conclusion to work with. They wanted to set the game up to where the true end result wouldn't be "spoiled" by online media, they wanted to make sure everyone made an active, personal choice where the end result was not immediately known... and in several months a DLC is going to come out saying "destroy was the only correct option, the rest of you were indoctrinated by the reapers (not in game, but by the actual choice you made)."

I have to say, if this is truly the direction the creators intended and this is the end result we will (eventually) get to through DLC, I take back all the bad things I said about the ending.

Modifié par eatmyassandballs, 10 mai 2012 - 05:10 .

[pro5]

eatmyassandballs wrote...

...and in several months a DLC is going to come out saying "destroy was the only correct option, the rest of you were indoctrinated by the reapers (not in game, but by the actual choice you made)."

I doubt those choices are going to mean complete and immediate indoctrination - that would be too cruel and unfair to those who chose Control or Synthesis purely for the sake of the Geth and EDI.

I've posted somewhere above in this thread an example of how I would like them to handle that - Shepard is partially controlled by the Reapers, but in critical moments the player gets a chance to make those Renegade/Paragon interrupts to "overpower" the indoctrination briefly through the sheer remaining force of his will.

This has serious potential for some of the greatest emotional moments in gaming history - imagine facing your LI begging you to stop and come to your senses! And I believe Bioware has the creative potential to see that and make it come true.

[frylock23]

pro5 wrote...

eatmyassandballs wrote...

...and in several months a DLC is going to come out saying "destroy was the only correct option, the rest of you were indoctrinated by the reapers (not in game, but by the actual choice you made)."

I doubt those choices are going to mean complete and immediate indoctrination - that would be too cruel and unfair to those who chose Control or Synthesis purely for the sake of the Geth and EDI.

I've posted somewhere above in this thread an example of how I would like them to handle that - Shepard is partially controlled by the Reapers, but in critical moments the player gets a chance to make those Renegade/Paragon interrupts to "overpower" the indoctrination briefly through the sheer remaining force of his will.

This has serious potential for some of the greatest emotional moments in gaming history - imagine facing your LI begging you to stop and come to your senses! And I believe Bioware has the creative potential to see that and make it come true.

Or they get critical mission failure and get to restart the mission.

[Fingertrip]

It went something like this: "Their [writers'] vision was pretty much what you saw, but with more focus on the detail. They wanted the players to use their knowledge of the lore and look for subtle differences in the endings to piece together what happened".

I remember this as well. But oh well, Indoctrination Theory is just grasping at straws.

AMIDOINGITRITE?

[Theodoro]

Your video is awesome! I enjoyed watching every minute of it and you really make some good points, this time backing them up with evidence from previous games. A well thought-out interpretation that really puts things into perspective.

pro5 wrote...

eatmyassandballs wrote...

...and in several months a DLC is going to come out saying "destroy was the only correct option, the rest of you were indoctrinated by the reapers (not in game, but by the actual choice you made)."

I doubt those choices are going to mean complete and immediate indoctrination - that would be too cruel and unfair to those who chose Control or Synthesis purely for the sake of the Geth and EDI.

Well, isn't this the fascinating thing with the ending? An indoctrination of the player. You wouldn't know that the Star Child is trying to make you choose the other two options. It's not actually choice - it's whether you succeed in resisting the Reapers' attempts to twist your mind or succumb to their suggestions.

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[DeepChild]

 Excellent video.  The way you've laid out the choices and their proponents is very compelling.  I also enjoyed the analysis of the Synthesis option from the reapers' perspective.  Whether IT turns out to be correct in the end or not, you've made a convincing case for the Destroy option.

pro5 wrote...
I've posted somewhere above in this thread an example of how I would like them to handle that - Shepard is partially controlled by the Reapers, but in critical moments the player gets a chance to make those Renegade/Paragon interrupts to "overpower" the indoctrination briefly through the sheer remaining force of his will.

This has serious potential for some of the greatest emotional moments in gaming history - imagine facing your LI begging you to stop and come to your senses! And I believe Bioware has the creative potential to see that and make it come true.

 

*applauds*  This would be fantastic.

Modifié par DeepChild, 10 mai 2012 - 02:49 .

[pro5]

Fingertrip wrote...

It went something like this: "Their [writers'] vision was pretty much what you saw, but with more focus on the detail. They wanted the players to use their knowledge of the lore and look for subtle differences in the endings to piece together what happened".

I remember this as well. But oh well, Indoctrination Theory is just grasping at straws.

AMIDOINGITRITE?

I suggest you give the video in original post a shot, and then come back and tell us if you still feel that way.

If so - okay, but I'll have to disagree.

Modifié par pro5, 10 mai 2012 - 02:54 .

[Theodoro]

pro5 wrote...
I've posted somewhere above in this thread an example of how I would like them to handle that - Shepard is partially controlled by the Reapers, but in critical moments the player gets a chance to make those Renegade/Paragon interrupts to "overpower" the indoctrination briefly through the sheer remaining force of his will.

Maybe even have flashes of Shepard's LI while he/she is walking towards the Synthesis beam or the Control computer, or just whispers of the LI's voice, or people who have died before like Thane, Mordin and Legion. It would have to be subtle, though, so that not every single player would figure things out.

[deathlord413]

Really like this explanation. Doesn't need lot's of interpretation as it uses dialogue and character motivations.

[deathlord413]

Theodoro wrote...

Your video is awesome! I enjoyed watching every minute of it and you really make some good points, this time backing them up with evidence from previous games. A well thought-out interpretation that really puts things into perspective.

pro5 wrote...

eatmyassandballs wrote...

...and in several months a DLC is going to come out saying "destroy was the only correct option, the rest of you were indoctrinated by the reapers (not in game, but by the actual choice you made)."

I doubt those choices are going to mean complete and immediate indoctrination - that would be too cruel and unfair to those who chose Control or Synthesis purely for the sake of the Geth and EDI.

Well, isn't this the fascinating thing with the ending? An indoctrination of the player. You wouldn't know that the Star Child is trying to make you choose the other two options. It's not actually choice - it's whether you succeed in resisting the Reapers' attempts to twist your mind or succumb to their suggestions.

It's not a "punishment," it's reality. Through out the entire game you are told that you must destroy the Reapers,. The only ones who say otherwise are the villains. Just because you chose Control or Synthesis for the right reasons doesn't make it the right choice. The best villains truly believe that they are doing the right thing. They believe that their way is the best and only way. If you choose Control or Synthesis you are throwing away what it means to be human and becomeing a villain.

 

[Zolt51]

I don't know. For me the OP's sig is a contradiction in terms.
The ending might not be that bad <> There is only one choice.

Don't go taking choice away from me, dammit!

[pro5]

Zolt51 wrote...

I don't know. For me the OP's sig is a contradiction in terms.
The ending might not be that bad <> There is only one choice.

Don't go taking choice away from me, dammit!

The point of the video is that the final sequence is more of a TEST, rather than a CHOICE (it's just an illusion of choice). Thus, there is only one right decision.

Modifié par pro5, 10 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[pro5]

bump

[Nemesis1812]

OP I find your idea brilliant! The ultimate test of willpower.

Of our willpower.
Besides, didn't bw say they wanted this to be a battle of the mind?;-)

[Ytook]

Fantastic vid, very well put, shows why I think if the indoctrination theory is true why it's so clever (but incredibly poorly handled by them), and if it's not true then why the options are so terrible.

[pro5]

Bringing back from page 5.

[Bill Casey]

Found another relevent quote...
Lt. Victus doesn't want to sacrifice any more of his men...
Shepard says this is the hardest type of sacrifice to make, but they all signed up for this and they have to finish the mission. Their sacrifices mean others will never have to face what they faced here today...

Victus

This is relevent because Shepard faces a similar situation with the Geth and EDI at the end of the game...

[Sir Misery]

Great vid man! Yet another well done video of how IT just makes too much sense.

[pro5]

Bill Casey wrote...

Found another relevent quote...
Lt. Victus doesn't want to sacrifice any more of his men...
Shepard says this is the hardest type of sacrifice to make, but they all signed up for this and they have to finish the mission. Their sacrifices mean others will never have to face what they faced here today...

Victus

This is relevent because Shepard faces a similar situation with the Geth and EDI at the end of the game...

Quotes I now really regret not using are:

1. (TIM vs Shepard on Thessia)
TIM: "No, I'm saying they've got it right. Why kill when you can control?"
Shepard: "The Reapers have it right? You're indoctrinated! You're doing just what they want."

I should have used that on the final Control explanation slide.

2. (one of the lines spouted by the Harbinger in ME2 when possessing collector minions)
Harbinger: "We are your genetic destiny!"

I should have used that on the final Synthesis explanation slide.

Oh well, good ideas always come after the fact.

[pro5]

Looking through some other Harbinger's banter lines from ME2... some look very interesting in the context of this thread.

Judge for yourself:

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”
“They will be as we are.”
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”

 And some of those directed personally at Shepard:

“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.” 
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“Shepard, you could have been useful.”

[Bill Casey]

Bill Casey wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Harbinger - We Are Your Genetic Destiny

Harbinger - Evolution cannot be stopped

Harbinger - Embrace Perfection

some more interesting clips...

Prothean Beacon

Extensive Genetic Rewrite

Mordin on Collectors, why they must be Destroyed

Javik on Zha'Til

You should have thought of that before

Avoiding War With Synthetics Through Synthesis, Playing God

Another similar conversation to the Victus one...
James loses most of his squad and all of the colonists, but destroys a collector ship...

"If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?"
"The right choice is usually not the easy one"

This is Paragon Options, btw...

Shepard & Vega

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 mai 2012 - 09:57 .