312 réponses à ce sujet

[pro5]

Bringing back to top.

[xsdob]

This will only make me rage so I'm just gonna go.

have fun. (p_-)

Modifié par xsdob, 12 mai 2012 - 04:42 .

[Theodoro]

pro5 wrote...

Looking through some other Harbinger's banter lines from ME2... some look very interesting in the context of this thread.

Judge for yourself:

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”
“They will be as we are.”
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”

 And some of those directed personally at Shepard:

“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.” 
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“Shepard, you could have been useful.”

Similarly to how I think “Struggle if you wish. Your mind will be mine.” can be used in support of the Indoctrination Theory.

Modifié par Theodoro, 12 mai 2012 - 08:23 .

[pro5]

Back from page 6.

[pro5]

Back from page 8.

[pro5]

Another bump.

[TheDonk95]

Genius video! Really dude!
Really helped me understand more what I already knew, but it was still very conforting to watch how you put my thoughts as facts. Destroy is really the true "Shepardish" ending. Not synthesis and not control.

[Kaelef]

You destroyed and chance at credibility when you included "IT" in the thread title.

[pro5]

Kaelef wrote...

You destroyed and chance at credibility when you included "IT" in the thread title.

The thread originally had a different title, offering "my new interpretation of the ending and explanation of Synthesis".

Still certain folks peered in just to state that "Synthesis is stupid, period." without watching the video and listening to my arguments.

Then, the thread was renamed to suggest an explanation why endings might not be quite as bad as some people think.

Still certain folks peered in just to state that "If it has to be explained that much, it sucks." without watching the video and listening to my arguments.

Now, the thread has been renamed again to point out that the video includes a new strong argument useful for IT (it's a fact, and it's not an argument that can be easily dismissed or argued against), even though the video tries to distance itself from the Indoctrination Theory on purpose.

Still there are folks like you who'll peer in just to state that everything with IT in title is anathema without watching the video and listening to my arguments.

It's funny how nearly all negative comments here on BSN come from people who refused to watch it, or didn't watch past the first half of it despite the clear warning in original post.  

[BunBun299]

Something this video helped me think, and I believe most of us failed to ask our first time through, is why we should believe a word the Reaper Brat says? Its the villain here. It has every reason to want us to not destroy the Reapers. Its claims that is controls the Reapers and its supposed reason for the cycle are also ludicrous. If an AI in the Citadel controls the Reapers, then why do Saren and Sovereign have to do their whole song and dance back in 1 to open the Citadel Relay? And its claim that this is about Synthetics v Organics is so blantantly false it can only be a lie. So this thing has credibility somewhere in the neighborhood of Starscream and Grima Wormtongue.

And we know it was lying about Shepard dying as well from Destroy. Granted, Shepard in the game can't know that. But since we know its lying about everything else related to Destroy, we can safely assume its lying about EDI and the Geth being killed as well. And even if that is the truth, we can at least take solace in knowing that if they do die, EDI and the Geth are the Reapers final victims.

Modifié par BunBun299, 16 mai 2012 - 01:51 .

[pro5]

Bringing back from page 12.

[cyrexwingblade]

I was already pretty solidly in the IT camp, but your video has given a clarity to it from the perspective I needed. Mainly, there IS a chance the Geth and EDI survive, because you're right. There are a lot of rhetorical games in that little exchange with the Catalyst.

I originally chose Synthesis, taking the endings at face value. My Shepard originally felt she had to recalculate, because she was fighting to save lives. She wanted to kill the Reapers, but not at the cost of the Geth and Edi, who fought like hell for her and everyone else. These reminders in your video give me reason for my Shepard to accept that they would, if standing there with her, tell her to shoot, and blow those *****ers straight to hell.

[Dendio1]

Kaelef wrote...

You destroyed and chance at credibility when you included "IT" in the thread title.

No, the inclusion of IT in the thead title affects his video in no tangible way

[RaidShock]

This video is really well done and has caused me to rethink many of the notions I had about the ending. Regardless of IT or not, you have made a very compelling case for destroy being the best option. My hat is off to you, pro5.

Modifié par RaidShock, 18 mai 2012 - 06:40 .

[pro5]

Back from page 10.

[nicethugbert]

I played Shep as paragon all the way through expecting to destroy the reapers. It's my gut instinct. But, questioning everything is also in my gut instinct. I saw The Catalyst playing with ambiguity. But, destruction is a predictable ending. So, I chose synthesis out of curiosity. I expected the endings to be largely the same, at least cosmetically, and sparse on content. But, I wanted to see if there was any difference however slight. The slight difference did not resolve any ambiguity but only furthered it. Yes, Joker and EDI are happy together, but are they merely programmed to be happy? Is the entire galaxy programed to some arbitrary naive happiness? Isn't psychiatry nothing more than the progamming of organics?  Aren't organics nothing more than bio-chemical machines?  Does not science assume that?  Is that assumption not neccesary to scientifically study organics?

All points of view in the game are based on passionate assertion. There is nothing in the game to conclusively and objectively resolve any of it's ambiguity. It's all he said she said, picking sides, and gut instincts. What if your companions are wrong? What if your Shep is wrong? What if there is no wrong or right?

The reapers claim to be so far advanced that organics cannot comprehend them. Yet, reapers are networked organic minds housed in a machine. Are they not subject to hubris, self-agrandizement, and conceit as organics are? In ME series we have limited contact with the reapers, all of it grandiose claims of superiority from them. They do not let themselves be known. Despite their galactic processing power, what if they are more organic than they let on? What if they are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 19 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[pro5]

nicethugbert wrote...

All points of view in the game are based on passionate assertion. There is nothing in the game to conclusively and objectively resolve any of it's ambiguity. It's all he said she said, picking sides, and gut instincts. What if your companions are wrong? What if your Shep is wrong? What if there is no wrong or right?

The reapers claim to be so far advanced that organics cannot comprehend them. Yet, reapers are networked organic minds housed in a machine. Are they not subject to hubris, self-agrandizement, and conceit as organics are? In ME series we have limited contact with the reapers, all of it grandiose claims of superiority from them. They do not let themselves be known. Despite their galactic processing power, what if they are more organic than they let on? What if they are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics?

That is... an interesting and extraordinary way to look at things. 

Allow me to continue your line a thought and rephrase your questions a bit.
- What if your companions are wrong?
- What if your Shep is wrong?
- What if there is no wrong or right?
- What if the Reapers are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics? 
- What if the Reapers were right all along?
- What if the Reapers had the right idea about liquifying people while they were still alive, to pump them as organic paste to fuel their own reproduction?
- What if we were wrong to oppose all that from the start of ME series? Maybe we should have just given up?

To be honest, I'm not even sure where to begin arguing with something like this. So instead I'll just state how this idea feels to me:
1. Absurd.
2. Offensive.
3. Disgusting.

"It's just my opinion though, no need to go spreading it around."

Modifié par pro5, 19 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[PsyrenY]

nicethugbert wrote...

All points of view in the game are based on passionate assertion. There is nothing in the game to conclusively and objectively resolve any of it's ambiguity. It's all he said she said, picking sides, and gut instincts. What if your companions are wrong? What if your Shep is wrong? What if there is no wrong or right?

The reapers claim to be so far advanced that organics cannot comprehend them. Yet, reapers are networked organic minds housed in a machine. Are they not subject to hubris, self-agrandizement, and conceit as organics are? In ME series we have limited contact with the reapers, all of it grandiose claims of superiority from them. They do not let themselves be known. Despite their galactic processing power, what if they are more organic than they let on? What if they are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics?

Even worse, their leashes are being held (possibly even without their knowledge) by a secret AI, whose mission it is to force them into inflicting the same horrors on other species that were inflicted upon them over millennia.

If Synthesis (or Control) break that hold, it's easy to see why they can end the cycle.

[Fingertrip]

Kaelef wrote...

You destroyed and chance at credibility when you included "IT" in the thread title.

You must be new to the Mass Effect franchise. Let me start off with welcoming you to the community & the game. I'd really recommend you to read through some of the graphical novels, and play the previous games (Mass Effect 1 & 2! ) to get a really enjoyable and entertaining experience when playing through Mass Effect 3.

The Graphical Novels will indulge you into the Mass Effect universe alot more and cover some ground and "plot holes" which are abit subtle for some people.

I hope you enjoy your stay, and if you've got any questions regarding the game and the universe, please feel free to talk to any of the older and veteran members.

[PsyrenY]

Fingertrip wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

You destroyed and chance at credibility when you included "IT" in the thread title.

You must be new to the Mass Effect franchise. Let me start off with welcoming you to the community & the game. I'd really recommend you to read through some of the graphical novels, and play the previous games (Mass Effect 1 & 2! ) to get a really enjoyable and entertaining experience when playing through Mass Effect 3.

The Graphical Novels will indulge you into the Mass Effect universe alot more and cover some ground and "plot holes" which are abit subtle for some people.

I hope you enjoy your stay, and if you've got any questions regarding the game and the universe, please feel free to talk to any of the older and veteran members.

The EU contains far more space magic than the games could ever hope to do. Your condescending post only serves to make you look as ridiculous as IT itself.

Signed,
-A veteran member

[Malditor]

While I credit you for the time and effort to make a video supporting what you think is the only real correct choice, I will never support anyone telling me my choice was "wrong" or "stupid" *note, I am not say you personally did*. I do not assume the right to say because I picked what I did that it is the only correct choice either. Whatever choice each person made at the end of their journey was right for THEM. If they chose to change their mind later, then that is also their choice, but it is not for me, you, or anyone else to try to force the opinion of ours was the "only right choice" on someone. I don't believe in IT, but neither do I disbelieve it. It is simply an interesting idea, that if it happens to be true will make for an added twist.

Modifié par Malditor, 19 mai 2012 - 03:25 .

[pro5]

Malditor wrote...

While I credit you for the time and effort to make a video supporting what you think is the only real correct choice, I will never support anyone telling me my choice was "wrong" or "stupid" *note, I am not say you personally did*. I do not assume the right to say because I picked what I did that it is the only correct choice either. Whatever choice each person made at the end of their journey was right for THEM. If they chose to change their mind later, then that is also their choice, but it is not for me, you, or anyone else to try to force the opinion of ours was the "only right choice" on someone. I don't believe in IT, but neither do I disbelieve it. It is simply an interesting idea, that if it happens to be true will make for an added twist.

I'd like to think I'm not forcing, but rather pointing out certain subtle things people might have missed.

And simple empiric observation suggests that a LOT of people missed such things as striking similarities between Child's presentation of Synthesis and the nature of the Reapers themselves, and between the idea behind Control and the "gifts" offered by the Old Machines to the Geth.

Keeping these similarities in mind, and applying simple logic, however, it becomes obvious to me that those 2 options can not be anything other than TRAPS. Because by choosing them you're doing exactly what the Reapers were trying to manipulate you to do all along. Consider this video my warning sign: "you are doing just what they want!", if you will.

If the arguments presented in the video do not seem convincing enough - that's perfectly reasonable, you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't say I didn't warn you when the EC finally arrives... 

[nicethugbert]

pro5 wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

All points of view in the game are based on passionate assertion. There is nothing in the game to conclusively and objectively resolve any of it's ambiguity. It's all he said she said, picking sides, and gut instincts. What if your companions are wrong? What if your Shep is wrong? What if there is no wrong or right?

The reapers claim to be so far advanced that organics cannot comprehend them. Yet, reapers are networked organic minds housed in a machine. Are they not subject to hubris, self-agrandizement, and conceit as organics are? In ME series we have limited contact with the reapers, all of it grandiose claims of superiority from them. They do not let themselves be known. Despite their galactic processing power, what if they are more organic than they let on? What if they are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics?

That is... an interesting and extraordinary way to look at things. 

Allow me to continue your line a thought and rephrase your questions a bit.
- What if your companions are wrong?
- What if your Shep is wrong?
- What if there is no wrong or right?
- What if the Reapers are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics? 
- What if the Reapers were right all along?
- What if the Reapers had the right idea about liquifying people while they were still alive, to pump them as organic paste to fuel their own reproduction?
- What if we were wrong to oppose all that from the start of ME series? Maybe we should have just given up?

To be honest, I'm not even sure where to begin arguing with something like this. So instead I'll just state how this idea feels to me:
1. Absurd.
2. Offensive.
3. Disgusting.

"It's just my opinion though, no need to go spreading it around."

Those are not rephrases of my questions at all.  Your questions specifically relate to the reapers.  My questions are much broader.  Just because your companions are wrong does not mean you do not destroy the reapers.

Compare The Geth, EDI, and The Reapers.  The Geth spared the quarians because they did not have the processing power to calculate further action.  When The Geth achieve individuality and much greater processing power, they immediately extend their help to The Quarians.  They do not seek revenge.  They do not seek to eradicate organics even though it is clear that they have a good chance of doing so.  They are sapient but not emotional.  They merely wish to understand everything.  They have a tendency to help.  The Quarians created The Geth to be helpful computers.  The Geth retain this personality even as they advance.

Contrast that with EDI who becomes more human even as she becomes more advanced.  Contrast that with The Reapers, who are the most technologically advanced enity in the galaxy, except perhaps The Catalyst assuming it is not a Reaper.  In whose image was EDI created?  In who's image were The Reapers created?  What is their purpose, their nature?  Even though each reaper is a harvested advanced species with billions of networked organic minds, it is all subservient to a central directive embeded in them.

Every character you used in your video has a central directive:  TIM, control; Saren, synthesis, Hacket, destroy, etc.  For all Sheps ability to persuade or intimidate, he can't change anyone's central directive.  All he can do is show them that they are on a path away from it.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 19 mai 2012 - 08:11 .

[dreman9999]

nicethugbert wrote...

I played Shep as paragon all the way through expecting to destroy the reapers. It's my gut instinct. But, questioning everything is also in my gut instinct. I saw The Catalyst playing with ambiguity. But, destruction is a predictable ending. So, I chose synthesis out of curiosity. I expected the endings to be largely the same, at least cosmetically, and sparse on content. But, I wanted to see if there was any difference however slight. The slight difference did not resolve any ambiguity but only furthered it. Yes, Joker and EDI are happy together, but are they merely programmed to be happy? Is the entire galaxy programed to some arbitrary naive happiness? Isn't psychiatry nothing more than the progamming of organics?  Aren't organics nothing more than bio-chemical machines?  Does not science assume that?  Is that assumption not neccesary to scientifically study organics?

All points of view in the game are based on passionate assertion. There is nothing in the game to conclusively and objectively resolve any of it's ambiguity. It's all he said she said, picking sides, and gut instincts. What if your companions are wrong? What if your Shep is wrong? What if there is no wrong or right?

The reapers claim to be so far advanced that organics cannot comprehend them. Yet, reapers are networked organic minds housed in a machine. Are they not subject to hubris, self-agrandizement, and conceit as organics are? In ME series we have limited contact with the reapers, all of it grandiose claims of superiority from them. They do not let themselves be known. Despite their galactic processing power, what if they are more organic than they let on? What if they are not an abomination but merely more powerful and misguided than mere organics?

Ya...I came to that comcusion as well. But the think is thatthe alteritive of letting them do what they want is too horrific for me. It's literaly have a peoples identary destoryed  to save all organic life...It's another way aof dieing. he problem is that it's forced on us and it may not be the only awnser. As th geth said.."Taking the gift of the old machines norrows other salutions and future possiblities...We will build our own furture."

[pro5]

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