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Question to those who believe in the Indoctrination Theory...


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#76
VampireSoap

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Cadence of the Planes wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Legion64 wrote...

You'd be surprise Han, if you have seen my recent other Indoctrination Theory thread, people still believe in it. God knows why.


Creationism was pronounced dead the moment evolution was accepted by professional science community 200 years ago, yet today there are still billions of people believe the earth is 6000 years old. How do you explain that? Sometimes, ignorance and wishful thinking can not be explained by any rational means.


Funny that you mention science, but use a rather unscientific method in an attempt to make a point: by applying an anectodal example to the matter at hand, and hoping that someone will approach IT in the same way. Allow me to stoop to your level, and counter with another analogy: For millenia, people believed that the earth was flat, because they didn't consider investigating subtle clues about its spherical shape.... "the ground is flat and therefore the earth must be flat too." That, too, was debunked by scientific minds that decided to look beyond what was immediately apparent. See how easily anecdotes can be twisted?

You then label those who disagree with you as ignorant, and irrational.

Ah, the irony.


Yes, it is funny indeed, I was not even trying to initiate an argument at that point.

Have you noticed that the post was a reply for OP
?

I was trying to explain to OP there was no rational explanation for people clinging onto their beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. For your "anecdote", historians have found that most people including christian scholars at the time already quite convinced that the earth is spherical even before Columbus set sail. There was never a "struggle" between "flat earth" theory and "spherical earth" theory. You are talking about a common misconception. My advise, stop watching so many popular movies and start going to college and study more.

#77
VampireSoap

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And guys, stop trying to find evidence against IT. The burden of proof is not on us, the one who is making the claim has the burden of proof. So far I've seen only speculations. Let us just wait for the actual evidence, let the Indoc Theorists show the official documents confirming their "theory". Let the Indoc Theorists show a video clip with a Bioware developer saying that IT is correct. Don't answer them anything unless they give actual evidence instead of speculations.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 02 mai 2012 - 08:30 .


#78
Legion64

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AlanC9 wrote...

Let's just assume IT theory is true. How would the EC actually play if that's the case?


This. How could the IT play out if it's only an extended cut? Show that Shepard wasn't Indoctrinated, and then what happens after that. You IT believers keep shoving videos and saying that it will all explain when you are too focused on the story of the game itself.

Example:

Father_Jerusalem wrote...


So... one ending. And if you choose something different, you're wrong and get punished for it. Yet, this is preferable... somehow... to what we have now.

Uh huh. I would read some of that 1800 page thread, except that IT makes absolutely no sense, and you want to punish players for making a choice that's not what you determine to be the "right" one.


Legion64 wrote...

I believe the IT will cause more damage. For an example, let's just say Bioware say it was canon and they put it in the extended cut, Shepard was indoctrinated the entire time, well now what? It will just cause more people to think. And then the theories will go on and on and on, just like it is now, because there will be no closure.

Instead of some dream Shepard is seeing through the indoctrination, how about they give us an actual ending that deals with all of the plot holes and adds closure. It would make things a lot more simple.


Modifié par Legion64, 02 mai 2012 - 08:38 .


#79
Daddy555

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most theorys have very litle no no evidence to support them as anythink but stupid. however anyone who can not see that the IT has a vast amount of compelling arguments to suggest it has weight behind its cause is just flaming the idea..... there are serious questions regarding the ending and to say it makes no sense is a huge understatement i dont need to gon into detail we all know what they are... the dreams , oily shadows. TIM controlling sheperd the catalist ...the fact you hear the radio call say everyone was wiped out yet there you are ??

watch this then tell me its wishfull thinking

#80
Daddy555

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and the extended cut does not suggest the IT is not real in fact if they went and changed the ending that would suggest its not real the fact there extending on the current ending says to me that there happy with it and makes the IT more likly to be true ... and when asked about the IT bioware pretty much didnt confirm or deny now if it was just fan made nonsense wouldnt they just squash the idea there and then

#81
Icemix

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Daddy555 wrote...

most theorys have very litle no no evidence to support them as anythink but stupid. however anyone who can not see that the IT has a vast amount of compelling arguments to suggest it has weight behind its cause is just flaming the idea..... there are serious questions regarding the ending and to say it makes no sense is a huge understatement i dont need to gon into detail we all know what they are... the dreams , oily shadows. TIM controlling sheperd the catalist ...the fact you hear the radio call say everyone was wiped out yet there you are ??

watch this then tell me its wishfull thinking

Its wishfull thinking. I can't even watch the full thing now, it just gets so stupid, I start feeling like I am losing brain cells. Once you get out from the state of denial, go watch it again and you will see just how stupid it is.

#82
Antardis

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I don't often post here (understatement),
but this time perhaps I should. The IT was afaik not in any way shot in the foot or proven 'wrong'.
It or IT simply has not been confirmed as 'the' or 'a' possibility thusfar.
And why would they even do that?.. "Oh yea hey the IT is true by the way" *major ending DLC spoiler.

What?!

For real?..
Anyone expecting bioware or any other official source to make a statement such as that? They will not spoil nor admit any possible endings. Of that I am certain.
I'd wager they want people to 'see it unfold for themselves' and yes there may be multiple possibilities in how the "Extended Cut" pans out.

Another thing some people might want to concider is that bioware has been trying to play us for fools before. Not so much in a bad sense. But provoking response and making people talk about the game trough various means.
I remember well the Mass Effect 2 teaser showing sheppard armor and a Geth at the end of it.
(Loved the theories floating around about shepard being turned into a Geth and what not, had some laughs there)
Or the deal with "Sheppards death" in the 2nd installment.
I am pretty convinced Bioware has intentionally poked us for responses on manier an occasion.

The last one being ME3's, by now, (in)famous ending.

I think I've already made it obvious that I do believe in the Indoctrination Theory still and here's some of my reasons for doing so. Things I believe 'might' be possible or true.

1) The IT is either truth, a possible truth (path) or perhaps a partial truth.
There's just too much pointing in it's direction to just wave it away.
[on that topic the video about the IT on youtube is a 'must watch' if you want to understand where it is coming from and want to succesfully argue against it. You may find yourself challenged for the latter to say the least.]

2) There have been no suggestions afaik *whatsoever* stating that the "IT" may be or not be true.
All I've seen thusfar, are statements which have neither confirmed the possibility nor denied it.

3) "They're not going to change the endings, they are going to *expand upon them*"
You do realise this speaks very very very much in favor of the IT as is.... If you do not, I think you may have missed it's point.

4) Expanding up on the endings; Clarifying the current excisting endings;
Sounds to me like there is extra gameplay planned currently along with cinematics explaning the current endings. Giving them more context and eventually leading us to...*insert still open possibilities here*
I actually believe our current "ending/endings" could be classified as being a 'cliffhanger'
and that the EC DLC may expand upon what happened there as well as the consequences of the choices you made there and/or troughout the entire game itself.

5) While in many ways questionable.., I also believe this was 'sort of' planned by Bioware's mass effect team. I believe the main draft for the game's extended ending already excisted long before the Mass Effect 3 was shipped and shelved.
Sure they are listening to feedback now and very likely making changes/additions to the full extend of it so that it is as gratisfying and gives as much closure for every possible thing of imprtenance out there. For all the *bizillion* choices you could have possibly done different so to speak.

The feedback would be helpful in such a way to make certain nothing is left forgotten or unconcidered and the full ending is to become an as memorable as possible conclusion for as many as possible of the playerbase.
That is my 2 cents on the matter ofcourse.

Commence calling me a fool after we've all been proven wrong and the DLC ends up putting in a *yellow option* instead. :)
But not as long as there has been nothing noteworthy to prove it 'untrue'

Regardless, thanks for braving my TL;DR ;)

On a last note;
"I love the current endings as I am comvinced that they fit into a greater whole. One we have yet to witness."

#83
Icemix

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Antardis wrote...

I don't often post here (understatement),
but this time perhaps I should. The IT was afaik not in any way shot in the foot or proven 'wrong'.
It or IT simply has not been confirmed as 'the' or 'a' possibility thusfar.
And why would they even do that?.. "Oh yea hey the IT is true by the way" *major ending DLC spoiler.

What?!

For real?..
Anyone expecting bioware or any other official source to make a statement such as that? They will not spoil nor admit any possible endings. Of that I am certain.
I'd wager they want people to 'see it unfold for themselves' and yes there may be multiple possibilities in how the "Extended Cut" pans out.

Another thing some people might want to concider is that bioware has been trying to play us for fools before. Not so much in a bad sense. But provoking response and making people talk about the game trough various means.
I remember well the Mass Effect 2 teaser showing sheppard armor and a Geth at the end of it.
(Loved the theories floating around about shepard being turned into a Geth and what not, had some laughs there)
Or the deal with "Sheppards death" in the 2nd installment.
I am pretty convinced Bioware has intentionally poked us for responses on manier an occasion.

The last one being ME3's, by now, (in)famous ending.

I think I've already made it obvious that I do believe in the Indoctrination Theory still and here's some of my reasons for doing so. Things I believe 'might' be possible or true.

1) The IT is either truth, a possible truth (path) or perhaps a partial truth.
There's just too much pointing in it's direction to just wave it away.
[on that topic the video about the IT on youtube is a 'must watch' if you want to understand where it is coming from and want to succesfully argue against it. You may find yourself challenged for the latter to say the least.]

2) There have been no suggestions afaik *whatsoever* stating that the "IT" may be or not be true.
All I've seen thusfar, are statements which have neither confirmed the possibility nor denied it.

3) "They're not going to change the endings, they are going to *expand upon them*"
You do realise this speaks very very very much in favor of the IT as is.... If you do not, I think you may have missed it's point.

4) Expanding up on the endings; Clarifying the current excisting endings;
Sounds to me like there is extra gameplay planned currently along with cinematics explaning the current endings. Giving them more context and eventually leading us to...*insert still open possibilities here*
I actually believe our current "ending/endings" could be classified as being a 'cliffhanger'
and that the EC DLC may expand upon what happened there as well as the consequences of the choices you made there and/or troughout the entire game itself.

5) While in many ways questionable.., I also believe this was 'sort of' planned by Bioware's mass effect team. I believe the main draft for the game's extended ending already excisted long before the Mass Effect 3 was shipped and shelved.
Sure they are listening to feedback now and very likely making changes/additions to the full extend of it so that it is as gratisfying and gives as much closure for every possible thing of imprtenance out there. For all the *bizillion* choices you could have possibly done different so to speak.

The feedback would be helpful in such a way to make certain nothing is left forgotten or unconcidered and the full ending is to become an as memorable as possible conclusion for as many as possible of the playerbase.
That is my 2 cents on the matter ofcourse.

Commence calling me a fool after we've all been proven wrong and the DLC ends up putting in a *yellow option* instead. :)
But not as long as there has been nothing noteworthy to prove it 'untrue'

Regardless, thanks for braving my TL;DR ;)

On a last note;
"I love the current endings as I am comvinced that they fit into a greater whole. One we have yet to witness."


Get ready to eat your words when the EC is released. Seriously people use your common sense for once.

#84
Legion64

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Everyone step out of the Mass Effect universe and go into reality real quick. And think about what is being said. Logically, why would Bioware make 3 decisions and have only one be a correct one? It's stupid and unfair. The 3 choices in the end were suppost to be based off of what the player themselves believe what's the right thing to do. Killing off the other choices people believe is the right thing to do and only going for one single ending is unfair. For the last time, I HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS INVALID. But if you for once, step out of the game world for a second and think of this logically, you would understand why it wouldn't be right for those who liked the choices placed in the ending.

PLEASE DO NOT POST THAT VIDEO AND SAYING IT WILL EXPLAIN EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT WON'T EXPLAIN WHY 
THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS UNFAIR TO THOSE WHO LIKE THE ENDING THE WAY IT IS.

It's not right to punish players for not picking the choices others like.

Legion64 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's just assume IT theory is true. How would the EC actually play if that's the case?


This. How could the IT play out if it's only an extended cut? Show that Shepard wasn't Indoctrinated, and then what happens after that. You IT believers keep shoving videos and saying that it will all explain when you are too focused on the story of the game itself.

Example:

Father_Jerusalem wrote...


So... one ending. And if you choose something different, you're wrong and get punished for it. Yet, this is preferable... somehow... to what we have now.

Uh huh. I would read some of that 1800 page thread, except that IT makes absolutely no sense, and you want to punish players for making a choice that's not what you determine to be the "right" one.


Legion64 wrote...

I believe the IT will cause more damage. For an example, let's just say Bioware say it was canon and they put it in the extended cut, Shepard was indoctrinated the entire time, well now what? It will just cause more people to think. And then the theories will go on and on and on, just like it is now, because there will be no closure.

Instead of some dream Shepard is seeing through the indoctrination, how about they give us an actual ending that deals with all of the plot holes and adds closure. It would make things a lot more simple.



Modifié par Legion64, 02 mai 2012 - 10:18 .


#85
Icemix

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Legion64 wrote...

Everyone step out of the Mass Effect universe and go into reality real quick. And think about what is being said. Logically, why would Bioware make 3 decisions and have only one be a correct one? It's stupid and unfair. The 3 choices in the end were suppost to be based off of what the player themselves believe what's the right thing to do. Killing off the other choices people believe is the right thing to do and only going for one single ending is unfair. For the last time, I HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS INVALID. But if you for once, step out of the game world for a second and think of this logically, you would understand why it wouldn't be right for those who liked the choices placed in the ending.

PLEASE DO NOT POST THAT VIDEO AND SAYING IT WILL EXPLAIN EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT WON'T EXPLAIN WHY 
THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS UNFAIR TO THOSE WHO LIKE THE ENDING THE WAY IT IS.

It's not right to punish players for not picking the choices others like.

I have, its called games don't ship w/o an ending and then have said ending as DLC, because the fans will burn your HQ to the ground. If you follow the IT, it means that the game did not finish. Common sense 101. Pull your heads out of your asses.

Modifié par Icemix, 02 mai 2012 - 10:21 .


#86
Legion64

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That's not really evidence against the IT. Like for an example, if you have an explanation on why something in the IT doesn't make sense, then that is evidence.

But what you post is logic and common sense. Why would Bioware not have the real ending in the game itself. Or in my argument, it's not fair to punish players for not picking the choices others liked.

#87
Icemix

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Legion64 wrote...

That's not really evidence against the IT. Like for an example, if you have an explanation on why something in the IT doesn't make sense, then that is evidence.

But what you post is logic and common sense. Why would Bioware not have the real ending in the game itself. Or in my argument, it's not fair to punish players for not picking the choices others liked.

How is it not evidence? Its all it needs to be debunked. Some parts of the IT do make sense, but most of those seem like leftovers from their original plan to include indoctrination that was scrapped. Here Bioware again debunks it by admiting to have removed the indoctrination from the game. I don't see what more you need to prove its just not true.

#88
Antardis

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Icemix wrote...

Get ready to eat your words when the EC is released. Seriously people use your common sense for once.


And all I see from you is writing about how stupid you believe the IT to be and suggesting we are the lesser for believing the contrary. True enough, the many versions/interpretations have their flaws. Some points seem a bit far fetched, but there are other points that hit the nail right on the head.

I do not see you however giving valid arguments as to why it wouldn't be or even what you believe the EC could///'should' be.

I am well prepared to eat my words as I am aware that believing in the IT is believing in 'a possibility' and while having my preferences I remain open to many suggestions. In fact I dare you to do your own.

If you say the IT is a load of horses ****. Go on. Lay your cards on the table.
And no.. "Because it is stupid" does not count...

If on the other hand you're just someone who is fed up with hearing/reading about IT "because you don't like it", you're pretty much out of luck.

True enough, the many versions/interpretations have their flaws. Some points seem a bit far fetched, but there are other points that hit the nail right on the head. 
The IT and any other forms of feedback need to be encouraged and discussed. It would even be nice if there was one or more alternative theories out there which could hold a candle to some of the issues which the IT adresses. Unfortunately I have found none yet.
Bioware wants us to give feedback about everything before the EC release. Hell, the that's what we'll do.

Regardless, I'm more interested in reading what you really have to counter it, if you can.

#89
Icemix

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Antardis wrote...

Icemix wrote...

Get ready to eat your words when the EC is released. Seriously people use your common sense for once.


And all I see from you is writing about how stupid you believe the IT to be and suggesting we are the lesser for believing the contrary. True enough, the many versions/interpretations have their flaws. Some points seem a bit far fetched, but there are other points that hit the nail right on the head.

I do not see you however giving valid arguments as to why it wouldn't be or even what you believe the EC could///'should' be.

I am well prepared to eat my words as I am aware that believing in the IT is believing in 'a possibility' and while having my preferences I remain open to many suggestions. In fact I dare you to do your own.

If you say the IT is a load of horses ****. Go on. Lay your cards on the table.
And no.. "Because it is stupid" does not count...

If on the other hand you're just someone who is fed up with hearing/reading about IT "because you don't like it", you're pretty much out of luck.

True enough, the many versions/interpretations have their flaws. Some points seem a bit far fetched, but there are other points that hit the nail right on the head. 
The IT and any other forms of feedback need to be encouraged and discussed. It would even be nice if there was one or more alternative theories out there which could hold a candle to some of the issues which the IT adresses. Unfortunately I have found none yet.
Bioware wants us to give feedback about everything before the EC release. Hell, the that's what we'll do.

Regardless, I'm more interested in reading what you really have to counter it, if you can.


Head cannon all you want, if it makes you happy with the ending, but Bioware has dismissed it twice already, so has common sense. 

#90
Legion64

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Do people just read the ignorant post and never respond to what I have to say?

#91
John Epler

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No spoilers in this forum, please.

If you'd like, I can move this thread to the appropriate forum for you. Let me know.

#92
John Epler

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Thread moved and unlocked per OP's request.

#93
Antardis

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Icemix wrote...

I have, its called games don't ship w/o an ending and then have said ending as DLC, because the fans will burn your HQ to the ground. If you follow the IT, it means that the game did not finish. Common sense 101. Pull your heads out of your asses.


A valid concern, but it actually has been done before..
Last guys who pulled it seem to have survived. And some of those even charged for their 'true ending dlc'
I think it did in fact happen here, but I don't think we'll ever get the full picture of why.

Was it planned and if so is it really necessary for the ending DLC to take so long?
If it is why wasn't it/ part of it already developed beforehand?

I'm certain it could be explained somehow should it prove to be true. But it would nonethless create dangerous grounds as people want to get a "full , finished, product when they pay for it.

On the other hand, if you want to masses to really discuss something and think things over before spoiling the last bits. This is the way to do it.

Besides, currently we are led to believe ME3 did ship with an ending. Regardless of weither the IT ends up true or not.

On a sidenote, if you care to do so, you may also want to watch these;

THESE LINKS CONTAIN SPOILERS, ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK.

"10 Reasons We Hate Mass Effect 3's Ending"


"ME3 Indoctrination Theory & DLC 'Ending' Proof"


"Mass Effect 3 - Shepard's Indoctrination"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck 

The latter is the one you already know.
The others are from angryjoe. 10 Reasons is a good one to point out in what ways the current 'endings' do not seem to make sense.
The 2nd link is AngryJoe reviewing the possibility of the IT, he seems to be on the believing side, but indeed also briefly adresses your concern.
About that, I have mixed feelings myself. But I do, in fact, currently believe Mass Effect 3 was shipped 'unfinished'.

Modifié par Antardis, 02 mai 2012 - 10:54 .


#94
Pkxm

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all people need to do is read this very carefully and THINK about it

http://blog.bioware....3-extended-cut/

they clearly say no new endings. no new ending dlc. EC dlc is some cinematics and epilogue to clarify. that is it. for indoctrination theory to be true, that would mean some ending dlc is coming or they would have to literally change the game ending..which they have already said they are not doing.

they are adding some cinematics and epilogue which they clearly say they are doing. IT is a nice theory, a nice wish, its not coming true. we are not battling harbinger. we are not kicking some reaper ass. we are having some questions answered.

Modifié par Jsxdf, 02 mai 2012 - 10:57 .


#95
wantedman dan

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Jsxdf wrote...

all people need to do is read this very carefully and THINK about it

http://blog.bioware....3-extended-cut/

they clearly say no new endings. no new ending dlc. EC dlc is some cinematics and epilogue to clarify. that is it. for indoctrination theory to be true, that would mean some ending dlc is coming or they would have to literally change the game ending..which they have already said they are not doing.

they are adding some cinematics and epilogue which they clearly say they are doing. IT is a nice theory, a nice wish, its not coming true


Obligatory "if IT were true and Bioware planned it originally, then no, it would in fact only be an expansion of the current endings."

#96
uprightSimian

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@cadence

Scientific theories and mathematics held the world was round for millenia, but it took experimentation and empirical evidence to prove the theory true and become accepted as fact.

A theory is just a best guess until more evidence is arrived at which disproves the theory. One hole in the theory and the theory must be revised to account for the discrepancy and if it cannot be accounted for it must be discarded as false. Holding on to a theory because you reallly really want it to be true does not make it so. This is a problem that plagues science and society today, the unwillingness to accept a theory is wrong.

IMO IT is a pretty good idea and a likeable plot but as with most has plots has holes and irregularities, just not to the scale as the Ending.

Also this is not science, it's science fiction and probably one of the best forms of it around.

#97
Aaleel

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My biggest question is, if you tell the boy ???? you I'm not picking any of these terrible choices.

Why does the Crucible get destroyed, and why does Shepard die a REAL death? Or is this the Matrix where the body cannot live without the mind.

#98
Dude_in_the_Room

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The same reason why ppl who don't believe in IT feel the need to call ppl who do believe names and insults.

B/c we can.

#99
chevyguy87

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Can we all just be patient and wait before jumping to conclusions?

#100
NoSpin

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Aaleel wrote...

My biggest question is, if you tell the boy ???? you I'm not picking any of these terrible choices.

Why does the Crucible get destroyed, and why does Shepard die a REAL death? Or is this the Matrix where the body cannot live without the mind.


Considering Bioware doesn't let you tell the boy to **** off, who knows what would happen.


The biggest misconception I see regarding IT is-- It means a whole new ending! Only one choice is canon! Those who didn't pick it are screwed!

No. That is not what it means. IT expands on the ending, everything currently there "happened" (just in Shep's mind). If you chose an indoctrinated choice you still wake up, just indoctrinated. You would continue to play just like those who chose destroy, only now dialog scenes are tweaked to goad you into picking "bad" pro reaper choices. But when the end comes and that final decision to kill the reapers is at hand YOU CAN STILL WIN. At the end of ME1 Saren finally saw through his indoctrination and killed himself. Shepard could overcome his as well.

Wait for the EC, THEN worry about what the IT means. Who knows what Bioware has planned? Could be IT. Could be a horrible explanation of why the ending makes no coherent sense. Wait. See. Stop freaking out.