216 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

It does seem like the Reapers are a bit preemptive in their interference...

[Evo_9]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?

Quarians launch an attack to retake Rannoch. Shepard arrives to find the Quarians in need of help because the Reapers gave the Geth a collective brain boost. Because, rather than face extinction, the Geth chose to ally with the Old Machines.

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

I guess it is when you have a fleet of mega-synthetics around that have to justify their alleged reason for existence.

Thats after 50,000 years.

What would happen after 200,000 years.

Do you think maybe....perhaps....synthetics might evolve faster than organics?

I would say almost certainly yes. How can you say the catalyst is wrong when you only have evidence based on 50,000 year cycles. Obviously this "brat" knows something we dont.  

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 01:29 .

[Ticonderoga117]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

The Metacon War is but one battle in the unending war between synthetic and organics. Maybe the protheans win this war. And then maybe more Synthetics rise and utterly destroy the protheans.

Deciding the fate of the galaxy on a mere "maybe".

[sarcasm]Yeah, seems legit.[/sarcasm]

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 02 mai 2012 - 01:29 .

[lordnyx1]

Soulstice88 wrote...

There's stuff in game that contradicts the entire premise of Bieber-Reaper and his technological singularity? You don't say... /sarcasm

I agree, the only time in game or in lore we see AI's being an actual threat to organic life is when the Reapers involve themselves.

well that credit stealing ai tried to blow up and kill Shepard and his/her squad, it also had its creator sent to jail though it didn't really seem to have a kill all organics thing going more since you're going to deactivite me(my pargon sheps won't but meh) i'll take you with me.

[MisterJB]

Soulstice88 wrote...
I agree, the only time in game or in lore we see AI's being an actual threat to organic life is when the Reapers involve themselves.

Because the Reapers don't allow synthetics to evolve too far.
But, if an AI rises itself above organics, it will treat us with the same disregard we treat the less intelligent species we share this planet with.

[cerberus1701]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

The Metacon War is but one battle in the unending war between synthetic and organics. Maybe the protheans win this war. And then maybe more Synthetics rise and utterly destroy the protheans.

Maybe.

How can you know?

How can you act on that wild assumption with any sort of coherent, logical moral agency?

This kid came from an abusive home. Yes, he's only 6 now but clearly his poorer than average upbringing will gurantee that he will become a serial killer. It's inevitable. So I'll just off him now.

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

The Metacon War is but one battle in the unending war between synthetic and organics. Maybe the protheans win this war. And then maybe more Synthetics rise and utterly destroy the protheans.

The Protheans were pretty much in control of the Galaxy in their hey-day.  They were way more technologically advanced than the cultures that existed in the next cycle- to the point that they were grooming entire species to join their "empire".  They were ruthless in their tactics, and unforgiving in the practice of war.  Pretty sure that if the Reapers had never existed that they would be firmly in control of their galaxy.

[Kunari801]

Space-brat lies!

[xsdob]

You know what, I'd argue about all this but I really don't care at this point. So have a funny picture that sums up everyone's opinions on hating the starchild.

[Evo_9]

cerberus1701 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

The Metacon War is but one battle in the unending war between synthetic and organics. Maybe the protheans win this war. And then maybe more Synthetics rise and utterly destroy the protheans.

Maybe.

How can you know?

How can you act on that wild assumption with any sort of coherent, logical moral agency?

This kid came from an abusive home. Yes, he's only 6 now but clearly his poorer than average upbringing will gurantee that he will become a serial killer. It's inevitable. So I'll just off him now.

If it could be proven that every child, and i mean 100/100 children turn into serial killers, then im sure something would be done to stop it.

What if, IN EVERY CASE, synthetics destroy organics. What if the catalyst has seen this happen so many times without fail,  it decided to put an end to it with the cycle.

Sadly we will never know until they put it in the DLC.

[Sisterofshane]

Evo_9 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?

Quarians launch an attack to retake Rannoch. Shepard arrives to find the Quarians in need of help because the Reapers gave the Geth a collective brain boost. Because, rather than face extinction, the Geth chose to ally with the Old Machines.

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

I guess it is when you have a fleet of mega-synthetics around that have to justify their alleged reason for existence.

Thats after 50,000 years.

What would happen after 200,000 years.

Do you think maybe....perhaps....synthetics might evolve faster than organics?

I would say almost certainly yes. How can you say the catalyst is wrong when you only have evidence based on 50,000 year cycles. Obviously this "brat" knows something we dont.  

Evolving faster means nothing when we have already reached a certain level of transhumanism.    Basically what happens is that both parties can trend to evolve in a way that is unpredictable.

And why this necessarily means certain extinction for lesser species is beyond me.  We are more evolved than Monkeys, but you don't see People stomping out every monkey left in existence.

[Tekkez]

Bill Casey wrote...

It does seem like the Reapers are a bit preemptive in their interference...

They are on a strict 50,000 year schedule.

Reapers have a busy life, chilling out in dark space.

Can't show up every 100 years to check if syntheics are killing everything, too much work.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The Catalyst believes otherwise.

The Catalyst is wrong, and possibly mad.

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
And why this necessarily means certain extinction for lesser species is beyond me.  We are more evolved than Monkeys, but you don't see People stomping out every monkey left in existence.

How many species has humanity caused the extinction of on Earth?
Do we treat our dogs as our equals?

Also, monkeys aren't a threat to our rule on Earth. But I tell you, if any current species showed signs of developing sapience, we would be shooting at them faster than you could say "Extinction".

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2012 - 01:37 .

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, monkeys aren't a threat to our rule on Earth. But I tell you, if any current species showed signs of developing sapience, we would be shooting at them faster than you could say "Extinction".

More likely, we'd study the hell out of them, uplift them and preserve them.

[Tekkez]

MisterJB wrote...
But I tell you, if any current species showed signs of developing sapience, we would be shooting at them faster than you could say "Extinction".

Speak for yourself.

And I think you're completely wrong.

Modifié par Tekkez, 02 mai 2012 - 01:39 .

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, monkeys aren't a threat to our rule on Earth. But I tell you, if any current species showed signs of developing sapience, we would be shooting at them faster than you could say "Extinction".

More likely, we'd study the hell out of them, uplift them and preserve them.

We enslave members of our own species but you think that humanity would tolerate another sapients on Earth.

[cerberus1701]

Evo_9 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?

Quarians launch an attack to retake Rannoch. Shepard arrives to find the Quarians in need of help because the Reapers gave the Geth a collective brain boost. Because, rather than face extinction, the Geth chose to ally with the Old Machines.

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

I guess it is when you have a fleet of mega-synthetics around that have to justify their alleged reason for existence.

Thats after 50,000 years.

What would happen after 200,000 years.

Do you think maybe....perhaps....synthetics might evolve faster than organics?

I would say almost certainly yes. How can you say the catalyst is wrong when you only have evidence based on 50,000 year cycles. Obviously this "brat" knows something we dont.  

Well, then I would ask, how can he say he's correct when he's never actually SEEN the extinction of ALL organic life that he certain is inevitable.

Further. He allows Shep to make the last choice saying, his solution "won't work anymore."

How does he know? One race makes it to the Crucible in, what? 50 cycles? 100, 1,000.

One occurence of an event is not remotely predictive, particularly in a case like this. Kill Shep, raze Earth and it's not outside the realm of possibility that it could be another 500 cycles before he comes close to being faced with potential loss again.

I'd hardly say that that this meant his solution wouldn't work anymore.

And if he were as remotely certain of reality as the writers want to portray him as being, neither would he.

[lordnyx1]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, monkeys aren't a threat to our rule on Earth. But I tell you, if any current species showed signs of developing sapience, we would be shooting at them faster than you could say "Extinction".

More likely, we'd study the hell out of them, uplift them and preserve them.

But I don't want to ground speices into organic paste!

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
And why this necessarily means certain extinction for lesser species is beyond me.  We are more evolved than Monkeys, but you don't see People stomping out every monkey left in existence.

How many species has humanity caused the extinction of on Earth?
Do we treat our dogs as our equals?

Also, monkeys aren't a threat to our rule on Earth. But I tell you, if any current species showed signs of developing sapience, we would be shooting at them faster than you could say "Extinction".

Willingly with vitriol and hatrid?  I would say NONE (as in, extinction of another speices is not and has never been a goal of humans).  And you can't make a value judgement on an entire species based on how some people act.  People eat dogs in Asia - over here in America there are some people who treat their dogs bettter than their own children.  So to use the same hyperbole and call it truth just because the argument is that the offender just happens to be a robot is an inherently false notion.

[cerberus1701]

Evo_9 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

The Metacon War is but one battle in the unending war between synthetic and organics. Maybe the protheans win this war. And then maybe more Synthetics rise and utterly destroy the protheans.

Maybe.

How can you know?

How can you act on that wild assumption with any sort of coherent, logical moral agency?

This kid came from an abusive home. Yes, he's only 6 now but clearly his poorer than average upbringing will gurantee that he will become a serial killer. It's inevitable. So I'll just off him now.

If it could be proven that every child, and i mean 100/100 children turn into serial killers, then im sure something would be done to stop it.

What if, IN EVERY CASE, synthetics destroy organics. What if the catalyst has seen this happen so many times without fail,  it decided to put an end to it with the cycle.

Sadly we will never know until they put it in the DLC.

He's NEVER seen what he claims to be doing this all to prevent. He can't have because organics exist.

He can never have seen ALL organic life destroyed because there are organics.

I

[Evo_9]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?

Quarians launch an attack to retake Rannoch. Shepard arrives to find the Quarians in need of help because the Reapers gave the Geth a collective brain boost. Because, rather than face extinction, the Geth chose to ally with the Old Machines.

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

I guess it is when you have a fleet of mega-synthetics around that have to justify their alleged reason for existence.

Thats after 50,000 years.

What would happen after 200,000 years.

Do you think maybe....perhaps....synthetics might evolve faster than organics?

I would say almost certainly yes. How can you say the catalyst is wrong when you only have evidence based on 50,000 year cycles. Obviously this "brat" knows something we dont.  

Well, then I would ask, how can he say he's correct when he's never actually SEEN the extinction of ALL organic life that he certain is inevitable.

Further. He allows Shep to make the last choice saying, his solution "won't work anymore."

How does he know? One race makes it to the Crucible in, what? 50 cycles? 100, 1,000.

One occurence of an event is not remotely predictive, particularly in a case like this. Kill Shep, raze Earth and it's not outside the realm of possibility that it could be another 500 cycles before he comes close to being faced with potential loss again.

I'd hardly say that that this meant his solution wouldn't work anymore.

And if he were as remotely certain of reality as the writers want to portray him as being, neither would he.

The catalyst is very vague on details, we can all agree on that.

My understanding is that shepard being up there with the catalyst means that organics in general have evolved in such a way that means they will forever have the ability to meet with the catalyst over and over. The informaiton is out there in the open for all future generations to learn, just like the protheans did for this cycle.

So the catalyst is saying, ok...you organics have evolved in a way i couldnt predict and now my solution is screwed because all future generations will do the same thing. So lets work out a new solution.

The catalyst must of seen synthetics destroy organics over and over, and it determined that 50,000 years is the time to step in and stop AI advancement. There is no other explation for his logic.

Remember, synthetics destroying organic civilsations doesnt mean that they destroy everything including bacteria etc etc.

Who is to say that life hasnt gone through evolution hundreds of times since the big bang.

Bioware should of explained all of this somehow, but it can make sense if they want it to.

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 01:50 .

[Hudathan]

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics does not guarantee eternal peace in the galaxy.

Modifié par Hudathan, 02 mai 2012 - 01:53 .

[lordnyx1]

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics does not guarantee eternal peace in the galaxy.

The Andromeda Galaxy will eventually crash into the Milky Way Galaxy likely causing much destruction and death, should we then kill ourselves and set into motion a plan to kill any other "advanced" civilizations to save them from this fate?

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Willingly with vitriol and hatrid?  I would say NONE (as in, extinction of another speices is not and has never been a goal of humans).  And you can't make a value judgement on an entire species based on how some people act.  People eat dogs in Asia - over here in America there are some people who treat their dogs bettter than their own children.  So to use the same hyperbole and call it truth just because the argument is that the offender just happens to be a robot is an inherently false notion.

We caused the extinction of many species simply because we don't care. We regard them as lesser beings and show no concern of how our actions affect them.
Humans have been enslaving and killing each other for centuries and show now signs of stopping. At best, we form "civilized" nations that compete for power and people can't even cross borders without endless legal procedures. And we are all one species.

And you still believe that we would be willing to share Earth with another sapient species? We can't even live with each other.