216 réponses à ce sujet

[Sisterofshane]

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics doesn't not mean there will be peace in the galaxy for the rest of time.

And?  I'd hate to sound like a fatalist, but how is this premise at all inconsistant with the ever-changing nature of the universe?

Who is this Catalyst, and what makes his way better than the natural way of things?  Who does he think he is that he has to intervene at all?

[Jestina]

Geth did beat the poo out of the quarians with and without Reaper help. Without Shep's help, quarians would be gone.

[DubVee12]

Our cycle and the Protheans' cycle are hardly enough evidence for a galaxy that is billions of years old.

[Hudathan]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics doesn't not mean there will be peace in the galaxy for the rest of time.

And?  I'd hate to sound like a fatalist, but how is this premise at all inconsistant with the ever-changing nature of the universe?

Who is this Catalyst, and what makes his way better than the natural way of things?  Who does he think he is that he has to intervene at all?

It's powerful enough to impose its order on the galaxy, the same way human beings are powerful enough to impose our order on our planet. And since we are humans and are made victims by its cycle, we must choose to end it which is what we did in the game. It's still interesting to think of the galaxy from the Catalyst's perspective which is on such a different level when compared to our own.

Modifié par Hudathan, 02 mai 2012 - 02:04 .

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Willingly with vitriol and hatrid?  I would say NONE (as in, extinction of another speices is not and has never been a goal of humans).  And you can't make a value judgement on an entire species based on how some people act.  People eat dogs in Asia - over here in America there are some people who treat their dogs bettter than their own children.  So to use the same hyperbole and call it truth just because the argument is that the offender just happens to be a robot is an inherently false notion.

We caused the extinction of many species simply because we don't care. We regard them as lesser beings and show no concern of how our actions affect them.
Humans have been enslaving and killing each other for centuries and show now signs of stopping. At best, we form "civilized" nations that compete for power and people can't even cross borders without endless legal procedures. And we are all one species.

And you still believe that we would be willing to share Earth with another sapient species? We can't even live with each other.

Again, you are making a judgement against an entire species based upon the actions of individuals.  Any conculsion that you come to when using hyperbole will always be false.  There is no reason to believe that a Synthetic Race would behave any differently than an organic one - once a certain level of intelligence is reached.

And, if we were to apply your argument to human history, there should only be one master race that has destroyed the rest and has changed the course of human history forever.  Only, this hasn't happened, and it never will happen.  As understanding and technology has improved (which it always will with time and exposure), we have only seen the Human Race become more diverse and globally more cooperative.  Yes, despite the fact that we even fight and kill each other, we have needed no divine "intervention" to stop the complete annhilation of lesser developed/advantaged human races.

This makes the entire Synthetic Vs. Organic premise even more ridiculous in the Mass Effect Universe - a universe in which we humans have already accepted that there is sapient life out there that isn't humanity.

[Silent Step 305]

Hudathan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics doesn't not mean there will be peace in the galaxy for the rest of time.

And?  I'd hate to sound like a fatalist, but how is this premise at all inconsistant with the ever-changing nature of the universe?

Who is this Catalyst, and what makes his way better than the natural way of things?  Who does he think he is that he has to intervene at all?

It's powerful enough to impose its order on the galaxy, the same way human beings are powerful enough to impose our order on our planet. And since we are humans and are made victims by its cycle, we must choose to end it which is what we did in the game. It's still interesting to think of the galaxy from the Catalyst's perspective which is on such a different level when compared to our own.

To bad we don't get more of the catalyst's "perspective" before we make our choice.

[Dean_the_Young]

cerberus1701 wrote...

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

What you didn't hear was that all synthetics would always beat all organics.

[Evo_9]

DubVee12 wrote...

Our cycle and the Protheans' cycle are hardly enough evidence for a galaxy that is billions of years old.

Exactly.

How can anyone here say with certainty organics & synthetics can co-exist based on 50,000 years of evidence. Which...mind you, synthetics would only have been around for a small portion of that 50,000 years. I doubt cavemen could create an AI.

lol.

[Jog0907]

Jestina wrote...

Geth did beat the poo out of the quarians with and without Reaper help. Without Shep's help, quarians would be gone.

not in me3, the state of things is that quarians managed to push back the geth in several systems at once with minimal losses only getting in risk when the geth allied with the reapers

[Hudathan]

Sisterofshane wrote...

This makes the entire Synthetic Vs. Organic premise even more ridiculous in the Mass Effect Universe - a universe in which we humans have already accepted that there is sapient life out there that isn't humanity.

To be fair, that's what a lot of people see as Bioware's attempt to frame the franchise in a generally ideal setting. The fact that the Council even exists and that the Turians didn't just turn into the chaotic evil bad guys from Independence Day and kill us all in the First Contact War is really honestly amazing.

Silent Step 305 wrote...

To bad we don't get more of the catalyst's "perspective" before we make our choice.

Would've been nice, that stuff is interesting.

Modifié par Hudathan, 02 mai 2012 - 02:13 .

[Sisterofshane]

Hudathan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics doesn't not mean there will be peace in the galaxy for the rest of time.

And?  I'd hate to sound like a fatalist, but how is this premise at all inconsistant with the ever-changing nature of the universe?

Who is this Catalyst, and what makes his way better than the natural way of things?  Who does he think he is that he has to intervene at all?

It's powerful enough to impose its order on the galaxy, the same way human beings are powerful enough to impose our order on our planet. And since we are humans and are made victims by its cycle, we must choose to end it which is what we did in the game. It's still interesting to think of the galaxy from the Catalyst's perspective which is on such a different level when compared to our own.

It just sounds incredulous to me that something with such a vast understanding and knowledge wouldn't be able to come up with any other way to prevent this - that it can't understand that it has become the very thing it is trying to protect us from.

How much longer before it's will becomes completely corrupt?  It already has decided to place no value on the individual - it's only redeeming quality being that it allows some species to develop naturally for a time.  How long until it decides that it needs to completely dominate the natural processes of evolution, for the sake of preventing it's singularity?

[Sisterofshane]

Evo_9 wrote...

DubVee12 wrote...

Our cycle and the Protheans' cycle are hardly enough evidence for a galaxy that is billions of years old.

Exactly.

How can anyone here say with certainty organics & synthetics can co-exist based on 50,000 years of evidence. Which...mind you, synthetics would only have been around for a small portion of that 50,000 years. I doubt cavemen could create an AI.

lol.

It's certainly more evidence then the catalyst provided, which was none.

[Evo_9]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics doesn't not mean there will be peace in the galaxy for the rest of time.

And?  I'd hate to sound like a fatalist, but how is this premise at all inconsistant with the ever-changing nature of the universe?

Who is this Catalyst, and what makes his way better than the natural way of things?  Who does he think he is that he has to intervene at all?

It's powerful enough to impose its order on the galaxy, the same way human beings are powerful enough to impose our order on our planet. And since we are humans and are made victims by its cycle, we must choose to end it which is what we did in the game. It's still interesting to think of the galaxy from the Catalyst's perspective which is on such a different level when compared to our own.

It just sounds incredulous to me that something with such a vast understanding and knowledge wouldn't be able to come up with any other way to prevent this - that it can't understand that it has become the very thing it is trying to protect us from.

How much longer before it's will becomes completely corrupt?  It already has decided to place no value on the individual - it's only redeeming quality being that it allows some species to develop naturally for a time.  How long until it decides that it needs to completely dominate the natural processes of evolution, for the sake of preventing it's singularity?

Catalyst's only purpose is to ensure a balance in oranic evolution.

It is protecting organics by destroying only the advanced civilisations, it could not give a rats ass if that means destroying this one civilisation to a point of extinction, as long as organic evolution remains free of chaos.

[Hudathan]

Sisterofshane wrote...

It just sounds incredulous to me that something with such a vast understanding and knowledge wouldn't be able to come up with any other way to prevent this - that it can't understand that it has become the very thing it is trying to protect us from.

How much longer before it's will becomes completely corrupt?  It already has decided to place no value on the individual - it's only redeeming quality being that it allows some species to develop naturally for a time.  How long until it decides that it needs to completely dominate the natural processes of evolution, for the sake of preventing it's singularity?

It is not the thing that it's trying to protect us from. The Reapers only want to destroy the advanced races, not all organic life. The Catalyst is basically trimming the extra strong branches on the tree. If they were only concerned with wanton destruction, they would simply bombard each planet from orbit and then never rest because there are millions and bilions of potential habitable worlds in the galaxy. There would be no Cycle, it would just be constant flying and shooting.

[Geomon19]

I cannot believe some of the responses on here. People are actually defending the antagonist and the ludicrous ramblings it spews out.

[Sisterofshane]

Hudathan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

It just sounds incredulous to me that something with such a vast understanding and knowledge wouldn't be able to come up with any other way to prevent this - that it can't understand that it has become the very thing it is trying to protect us from.

How much longer before it's will becomes completely corrupt?  It already has decided to place no value on the individual - it's only redeeming quality being that it allows some species to develop naturally for a time.  How long until it decides that it needs to completely dominate the natural processes of evolution, for the sake of preventing it's singularity?

It is not the thing that it's trying to protect us from. The Reapers only want to destroy the advanced races, not all organic life. The Catalyst is basically trimming the extra strong branches on the tree. If they were only concerned with wanton destruction, they would simply bombard each planet from orbit and then never rest because there are millions and bilions of potential habitable worlds in the galaxy. There would be no Cycle, it would just be constant flying and shooting.

They only "harvest" advanced races for now.  Who's to say that in the interest of "speeding" up and "simplifying" the process that they begin to harvest all species that show the potential to become Advanced?  It would certainly make sense from a risk vs. rewards standpoint, especially after the toll that this specific cycle has taken on the Catalyst's trophies.

[Leozilla]

The Angry One wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.

They are proof of nothing. Organic life went on without them. They are but one species.
Especially if they were wiped out by the Reapers.

and the reapers aren't even synthetics they are hybrids as well, so there is no demonstarted proff that synthetics will wipe out organics because organics still exist

[Leozilla]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

The Metacon War is but one battle in the unending war between synthetic and organics. Maybe the protheans win this war. And then maybe more Synthetics rise and utterly destroy the protheans.

and then maybe down the line another group of synthetics join with organics to fight the evil synthetics, oh wait that happened with EDI and the Geth guess it's not a maybe anymore while your hypothesis still is

[Evo_9]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

It just sounds incredulous to me that something with such a vast understanding and knowledge wouldn't be able to come up with any other way to prevent this - that it can't understand that it has become the very thing it is trying to protect us from.

How much longer before it's will becomes completely corrupt?  It already has decided to place no value on the individual - it's only redeeming quality being that it allows some species to develop naturally for a time.  How long until it decides that it needs to completely dominate the natural processes of evolution, for the sake of preventing it's singularity?

It is not the thing that it's trying to protect us from. The Reapers only want to destroy the advanced races, not all organic life. The Catalyst is basically trimming the extra strong branches on the tree. If they were only concerned with wanton destruction, they would simply bombard each planet from orbit and then never rest because there are millions and bilions of potential habitable worlds in the galaxy. There would be no Cycle, it would just be constant flying and shooting.

They only "harvest" advanced races for now.  Who's to say that in the interest of "speeding" up and "simplifying" the process that they begin to harvest all species that show the potential to become Advanced?  It would certainly make sense from a risk vs. rewards standpoint, especially after the toll that this specific cycle has taken on the Catalyst's trophies.

Theyve been doing it for bilions of years, so the cycle did what they needed.

That is until shep ruined everything by coming face to face with the catalyst, now its back to the drawing board.

[Leozilla]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Who's to say a giant hippopotamus won't destroy the galaxy tomorrow?
You can't base everything on what ifs and maybes.

I don't. I say that I would risk another geth uprsising and would try anything possible to defeat them before turning humanity into a Reaper.
The Catalyst believes otherwise.

ok by that logic humanity should be wiped out because the Turians saw us as a threat, as well as the Krogan, Rachni, Quarians, Geth, and any other speices that is a danger to the council races

[Delta_V2]

Evo_9 wrote...

Catalyst's only purpose is to ensure a balance in oranic evolution.

It is protecting organics by destroying only the advanced civilisations, it could not give a rats ass if that means destroying this one civilisation to a point of extinction, as long as organic evolution remains free of chaos.

To what end?  To preserve future civilizations?  But when those future civilizations, the Reapers kill them too.  They are attempting to preserve a future that never comes.  If the Catalyst's plan was to operate this cycle indefinitely, it is the most idiotic plan I have ever seen.

Now, if the Crucible was actually designed by the Catalyst or the people who created him, that could change things.  If the Catalyst needed organic civilizations to perfect the Crucible, specifically the Synthesis part (forget for a moment how utterly nonsensical Synthesis is), then things could make at least a little sense.  In this scenario, the Reapers are not the "solution", they are merely a delaying tactic, an attempt to hold off the inevitable until the true solution could be developed.

I could at least see the logic behind the Reapers (even if I don't agree with the reason for their creation) if the cycle had an end goal, like deploying the Crucible.  But killing billions in the present in the name of a future that will never come is just stupid.

Modifié par Delta_V2, 02 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[MisterJB]

Leozilla wrote...
ok by that logic humanity should be wiped out because the Turians saw us as a threat, as well as the Krogan, Rachni, Quarians, Geth, and any other speices that is a danger to the council races

And, to this day, I wonder why we weren't.
Maybe the asari and salarians tought humanity could be used to settle unstable regions close to the Terminus System without any danger to themselves. No point destroying if you can control.
Maybe they tought we would never grow powerful enough to threaten them much like the elcor or hanar.

[MisterJB]

Leozilla wrote...
and then maybe down the line another group of synthetics join with organics to fight the evil synthetics, oh wait that happened with EDI and the Geth guess it's not a maybe anymore while your hypothesis still is

Rival groups joining forces to fight a common enemy is nothing new.
It means nothing.

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Leozilla wrote...
ok by that logic humanity should be wiped out because the Turians saw us as a threat, as well as the Krogan, Rachni, Quarians, Geth, and any other speices that is a danger to the council races

And, to this day, I wonder why we weren't.
Maybe the asari and salarians tought humanity could be used to settle unstable regions close to the Terminus System without any danger to themselves. No point destroying if you can control.
Maybe they tought we would never grow powerful enough to threaten them much like the elcor or hanar.

Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

[Evo_9]

Delta_V2 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Catalyst's only purpose is to ensure a balance in oranic evolution.

It is protecting organics by destroying only the advanced civilisations, it could not give a rats ass if that means destroying this one civilisation to a point of extinction, as long as organic evolution remains free of chaos.

To what end?  To preserve future civilizations?  But when those future civilizations, the Reapers kill them too.  They are attempting to preserve a future that never comes.  If the Catalyst's plan was to operate this cycle indefinitely, it is the most idiotic plan I have ever seen.

Now, if the Crucible was actually designed by the Catalyst or the people who created him, that could change things.  If the Catalyst needed organic civilizations to perfect the Crucible, specifically the Synthesis part (forget for a moment how utterly nonsensical Synthesis is), then things could make at least a little sense.  In this scenario, the Reapers are not the "solution", they are merely a delaying tactic, an attempt to hold off the inevitable until the true solution could be developed.

I could at least see the logic behind the Reapers (even if I don't agree with the reason for their creation) if the cycle had an end goal, like deploying the Crucible.  But killing billions in the present in the name of a future that will never come is just stupid.

Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it.

Organic evolution is chaotic.

Its all about stabilising organic evolution as a whole. Once a civilisation becomes too advanced, it must be destroyed to preserve this balance the catalyst is trying to establish.

TOTAL ORGANIC DESTRUCTION
.
.
BALANCE
.
.
SUPER ADVANCED CIVILISATIONS

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 02:45 .