216 réponses à ce sujet

[Wintermaulz]

As no one has posted this yet, ill post here at BSN (again)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gif[/img]

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

Not every individual, no. Governments on the other hand...

Well, the turians are still very much imperialists. And I would argue imperialism is still very much alive in 2012 but I really don't want to start a real world debate.

[Evo_9]

Wintermaulz wrote...

As no one has posted this yet, ill post here at BSN (again)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gif[/img]

Diagram is flawed.

The theory is that the catalyst created the reapers, not a civilisation.

[Leozilla]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

Not every individual, no. Governments on the other hand...

Well, the turians are still very much imperialists. And I would argue imperialism is still very much alive in 2012 but I really don't want to start a real world debate.

I'm curious did you kill the Rachini queen, not cure the genophage and destroy the Geth?

edit: I made a boo boo

Modifié par Leozilla, 02 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[lordnyx1]

Leozilla wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

Not every individual, no. Governments on the other hand...

Well, the turians are still very much imperialists. And I would argue imperialism is still very much alive in 2012 but I really don't want to start a real world debate.

I curious did you kill the Rachini queen, not cure the genophage and destroy the Geth?

Also did you kill shila and wrex?

[Muhkida]

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics does not guarantee eternal peace in the galaxy.

But couldn't the Catalysts's perspective be a little skewed to certain point when saying synthetics will overcome their creators?  I'm guessing it's bossing the Reaper cycle solution due to witnessing synthetics getting the upperhand before.  But it never got to the point where the synthetics managed to rule over the organics completely or commit mass genocide upon the other at a galactic scale (because there wouldn't be an ME universe then).  I'm thinking the catalyst never saw the synthetics accomplish a total victory over all organics in the Milky Way and is simply trying to avoid the "possibility".  It could happen, but that doesn't mean it will.

The catalyst can't predict the future and isn't an all knowing, omnipotent being (I think).  Who's there to say that at some point in the galaxy's timeline an advanced organic species the size of thresher maws evolve to an intelligent, space faring race that's figured out how to utilize FTL speeds and just dominates everything.  At the same time, how will the Catalyst even know if the geth (or some other synthetic life form created in the future) will achieve the same level of success of overcoming their creators.  Not all synthetics are made the same, so their strengths/weaknesses can be highly variable.  So saying synthetics > organics is inevitable to the Catalyst's point of view, but that doesn't make it true or false.

Modifié par Muhkida, 02 mai 2012 - 03:00 .

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

Not every individual, no. Governments on the other hand...

Well, the turians are still very much imperialists. And I would argue imperialism is still very much alive in 2012 but I really don't want to start a real world debate.

The Turians as a whole are imperialist how?  They serve on a council with three other species, and they certainly don't work enslave the entire galaxy.  The Hierarchy demonstrates that they understand that they are very much reliant upon many other species in order to maintain it's place in the galaxy, and not in the "we own them" type of need.

And again I have to question why any of this would prove that Synthetics would necessarily be the only species in which this type of attitude toward other species would be prevelant in every single individual?  When we can accept them as only having physical differences from organic civilizations?  In which every single point you have made seems to prove that it is not inherent in their nature?

[Archer610]

Evo_9 wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Catalyst's only purpose is to ensure a balance in oranic evolution.

It is protecting organics by destroying only the advanced civilisations, it could not give a rats ass if that means destroying this one civilisation to a point of extinction, as long as organic evolution remains free of chaos.

To what end?  To preserve future civilizations?  But when those future civilizations, the Reapers kill them too.  They are attempting to preserve a future that never comes.  If the Catalyst's plan was to operate this cycle indefinitely, it is the most idiotic plan I have ever seen.

Now, if the Crucible was actually designed by the Catalyst or the people who created him, that could change things.  If the Catalyst needed organic civilizations to perfect the Crucible, specifically the Synthesis part (forget for a moment how utterly nonsensical Synthesis is), then things could make at least a little sense.  In this scenario, the Reapers are not the "solution", they are merely a delaying tactic, an attempt to hold off the inevitable until the true solution could be developed.

I could at least see the logic behind the Reapers (even if I don't agree with the reason for their creation) if the cycle had an end goal, like deploying the Crucible.  But killing billions in the present in the name of a future that will never come is just stupid.

Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it.

Organic evolution is chaotic.

Its all about stabilising organic evolution as a whole. Once a civilisation becomes too advanced, it must be destroyed to preserve this balance the catalyst is trying to establish.

TOTAL ORGANIC DESTRUCTION
.
.
BALANCE
.
.
SUPER ADVANCED CIVILISATIONS

Here's another problem with the Catalyst's long term thinking:  The Andromeda galaxy isn't too far away.  If organics there develop into a civilization with reaper level technology, or create synthetics that develop reaper level technology, what's to stop them from travelling to the Milky Way and overwhelming the less technologically advanced species here?

By killing organics over and over, the Reapers leave this galaxy without the means to defend itself from an external invasion.

I wonder what the Catalyst thinks about that  

[MisterJB]

Leozilla wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

Not every individual, no. Governments on the other hand...

Well, the turians are still very much imperialists. And I would argue imperialism is still very much alive in 2012 but I really don't want to start a real world debate.

I curious did you kill the Rachini queen, not cure the genophage and destroy the Geth?

No. Why? Because it's just a game.
In real life, I would have.

[lx_theo]

The idea of Synthetics inevitably (not always) winning is that with the idea of technological singularity, they will eventually reach a point that organics can't catch up to, and then will win every war after that.

[Cyberfrog81]

It sure seems the Reapers like to take advantage of synthetics more than they oppose them. Which would seem to indicate that we should reject the distinction - it's not "organic life" or "synthetic life", it's just life. The Reapers are opposed to life as it is meant to be, doing whatever they please as they attempt to control, to impose order.

The Reapers have no allies, they only have playthings.

[Leozilla]

Muhkida wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The type of synthetic that would be powerful enough to destroy all organic life has not been invented yet. The Catalyst is not willing to even entertain the possibility of such synthetics existing in the galaxy. It potentially takes just one said powerful synthetic race to completely change the natural order of the galaxy and it's a risk the Catalyst does not wish to take.

Showing isolated examples of organics overcoming synthetics does not change the inevitability of such a far-sighted goal. The same way isolated examples of organics making peace with synthetics does not guarantee eternal peace in the galaxy.

But couldn't the Catalysts's perspective be a little skewed to certain point when saying synthetics will overcome their creators?  I'm guessing it's bossing the Reaper cycle solution due to witnessing synthetics getting the upperhand before.  But it never got to the point where the synthetics managed to rule over the organics completely or commit mass genocide upon the other at a galactic scale (because there wouldn't be an ME universe then).  I'm thinking the catalyst never saw the synthetics accomplish a total victory over all organics in the Milky Way and is simply trying to avoid the "possibility".  It could happen, but that doesn't mean it will.

The catalyst can't predict the future and isn't an all knowing, omnipotent being (I think).  Who's there to say that at some point in the galaxy's timeline an advanced organic species the size of thresher maws evolve to an intelligent, space faring race that's figured out how to utilize FTL speeds and just dominates everything.  At the same time, how will the Catalyst even know if the geth (or some other synthetic life form created in the future) will achieve the same level of success of overcoming their creators.  Not all synthetics are made the same, so their strengths/weaknesses can be highly variable.  So saying synthetics > organics is inevitable to the Catalyst's point of view, but that doesn't make it true or false.

The Catalyst creates a self fullfilling prophecy, being the only AI capable of destroying organic life and even then his theory falls because being the AI with the power to destroy all organics he chooses not to but to cull any spieces that poses a threat to him and his reapers

[savionen]

Evo_9 wrote...

Diagram is flawed.

The theory is that the catalyst created the reapers, not a civilization.

Still bad logic, or bad storytelling.

Either it was on the verge of happenening and the Catalyst was created to stop it and Bioware decided to leave that part out, or, there's no proof that it will ever happen because it has never happened.

Seriously though. Think about it logically. What reason would there ever be for a synthetic lifeform to kill ALL organic life. In order for organic life as a whole to be destroyed, they'd not only have to kill every Asari and Krogan, but every rabbit, every varren, every ant, every bacteria? Every protozoa? If not, life will eventually evolve again into humanoids, etc.

What possible reason would there ever be for that, and how would that be possible aside from straight up destroying the entire galaxy with a fiery explosion?

Modifié par savionen, 02 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[Wintermaulz]

Evo_9 wrote...

Wintermaulz wrote...

As no one has posted this yet, ill post here at BSN (again)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gif[/img]

Diagram is flawed.

The theory is that the catalyst created the reapers, not a civilisation.

More likely that the very first galactic civilization turned them selves into reapers to do all this, and that the catalyst is the collective thoughts of that species(evangelion?).

[Delta_V2]

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it.

Organic evolution is chaotic.

Its all about stabilising organic evolution as a whole. Once a civilisation becomes too advanced, it must be destroyed to preserve this balance the catalyst is trying to establish.

TOTAL ORGANIC DESTRUCTION
.
.
BALANCE
.
.
SUPER ADVANCED CIVILISATIONS

Again, why?  Who gives a crap about "organic life" in the absolute most general sense?  And this was never about advanced civilizations being a problem, but rather the synthetics they create being the problem.  Nowhere does the Catalyst say advanced civilization is inherently bad, it's just the *supposed* fact that these civilizations will create synthetics that will destroy all organic life.

If the Catalyst had an end goal of actually solving the problem so the Reapers wouldn't be needed anymore, I could at least understand the ruthless logic behind it.  In this case, it would make sense to sacrifice the present to save the future, because you're hoping to someday see that future made a reality.  As it stands, the Catalyst is sacrficing the present for a future that will never come.

[In Exile]

Jog0907 wrote..
The protheans won actually, they made the zha'til system star go supernova and blew them up. He says than that was the point they decided to become a more ruthless empire that forced species into it.

And then maybe a rag-tag army made of multiple species wipes out that genocidal super AI. You know, kind of like the whole plot of the game?

[Leozilla]

MisterJB wrote...

Leozilla wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Perhaps because not every individual in the galaxy is hell bent upon destroying everything and everyone that might be presented in some manner to be a threat.

You know, the same kind of mind set that was mostly dismissed by humanity with the end of imperialism.

Not every individual, no. Governments on the other hand...

Well, the turians are still very much imperialists. And I would argue imperialism is still very much alive in 2012 but I really don't want to start a real world debate.

I curious did you kill the Rachini queen, not cure the genophage and destroy the Geth?

No. Why? Because it's just a game.
In real life, I would have.

and your the reason Humanity is not ready to go into the cosmos, we had all better hope that there aren't an advanced civilzation like the covenant out there otherwise we are doomed to extinction

edit: by you I mean your midset not you personally

Modifié par Leozilla, 02 mai 2012 - 03:08 .

[HiddenKING]

 I keep readin "Mexican War" in the title. I dunno why. 

[GreenDragon37]

 Because the Catalyst is wrong, wrong, wrong! I think the Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy unto themselves. 

[Leozilla]

Wintermaulz wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Wintermaulz wrote...

As no one has posted this yet, ill post here at BSN (again)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/wZr54.gif[/img]

Diagram is flawed.

The theory is that the catalyst created the reapers, not a civilisation.

More likely that the very first galactic civilization turned them selves into reapers to do all this, and that the catalyst is the collective thoughts of that species(evangelion?).

that is what I have been thinking too, and I also imagine the starbrat is an "avatar" for their ideals

[In Exile]

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

"Organic life" is cyano bacteria. The reapers could drop an asteroid on Earth and they'd fail to wipe out organic life.

That's what makes the whole premise so insanely moronic.

[JBPBRC]

Jog0907 wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Geth did beat the poo out of the quarians with and without Reaper help. Without Shep's help, quarians would be gone.

not in me3, the state of things is that quarians managed to push back the geth in several systems at once with minimal losses only getting in risk when the geth allied with the reapers

Quarians struck at the most inconvenient time as well, don't forget that factor. Under normal circumstances Quarians would've taken much heavier losses. Personally I didn't like how the Geth were suddenly "vulnerable" for the first time in 200 years just to give Shepard a crisis to solve. Curse you PLOT!

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
The Turians as a whole are imperialist how?  They serve on a council with three other species, and they certainly don't work enslave the entire galaxy.  The Hierarchy demonstrates that they understand that they are very much reliant upon many other species in order to maintain it's place in the galaxy, and not in the "we own them" type of need.

The Turian Hierarchy is also called the Turian Empire.
They own many client species like the volus and many of this species were once enemies of the empire which were forced to become client races after they lost their respective wars.
Their first attitude towards a newcomer species was a deadly attack and occupation of humanity's terrority.

And again I have to question why any of this would prove that Synthetics would necessarily be the only species in which this type of attitude toward other species would be prevelant in every single individual?  When we can accept them as only having physical differences from organic civilizations?  In which every single point you have made seems to prove that it is not inherent in their nature?

Synthetics are not capable of real emotion like empathy and it's these emotions that prevent organics from killing each other (besides threat of retaliation, of course).
If an advanced enough AI becomes capable of emotions, then the danger they pose is as great as any other living being.

[MisterJB]

Leozilla wrote...
and your the reason Humanity is not ready to go into the cosmos, we had all better hope that there aren't an advanced civilzation like the covenant out there otherwise we are doomed to extinction

I will agree that, realistically, encounter with a more advanced species would result in our extinction.
Of course, the opposite is also true.

[GreenDragon37]

I can't believe some of the responses on this thread. i mean, jeez. Some of these people would have let the Reapers win back in ME1.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 02 mai 2012 - 03:29 .