216 réponses à ce sujet

[Delta_V2]

MisterJB wrote...
Synthetics are not capable of real emotion like empathy and it's these emotions that prevent organics from killing each other (besides threat of retaliation, of course).
If an advanced enough AI becomes capable of emotions, then the danger they pose is as great as any other living being.

1) Says who?  How can you say for certain that synthetics are not capable of feeling emotion?

"Because the Reapers are repulsive.  They are devoted to nothing but self-preservation.  I am different.... I would risk non-functionality for him".  I'll give you one guess who says that.

2) Of course they are.  No one tried to claim any different.  But we don't run around killing every person we think might be a threat.  If synthetics are fully sentient, why should they be treated any differently?

[2484Stryker]

cerberus1701 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

When you go to a hospital, they will irradiate your entire body and kills off all mature healthy cells because cancer cells could always develop and kill off all your cells.

Thay stopped basically bathing people in radiation like that years ago. The statement is flase, and it's not applicable here in any event.

That...was...a...joke... ><

[RavenEchoseven]

So the AI known as the Catalyst, which commands a greatly advanced force of synthetics, tells us synthetics will inevitably destroy their creators. The Catalyst, again a synthetic AI, says it came up with the current solution to cull advanced races. Not only does the Catalyst create a self-fulfilling prophesy by destroying advance organics with its synthetic forces, it also seems to be the product of that very same prophesy. It seems to me that the cycle begins with some race creating its shining achievement, true AI, only to have that achievement turn on it. At which point it considers advanced organic life a threat and must cull them before they repeat the process. Why?

[MisterJB]

Delta_V2 wrote...
1) Says who?  How can you say for certain that synthetics are not capable of feeling emotion?

"Because the Reapers are repulsive.  They are devoted to nothing but self-preservation.  I am different.... I would risk non-functionality for him".  I'll give you one guess who says that.

And what allowed her to say that? Sovereign's remains.
Same thing on Rannoch, Reaper code seems to be what allows AIs to become truly alive.

Thus, how can you say that any synthetic that previous cycles created were capable of feeling emotions if they didn't have Reaper code availabe?

 2) Of course they are.  No one tried to claim any different.  But we don't run around killing every person we think might be a threat.  If synthetics are fully sentient, why should they be treated any differently?

I did not say they should. I said that any species that becomes superior to others, will treat those lesser beings with about the same regard we treat the fauna of our planet.
This applies to organic and synthetic species. It's just much more probrable to happen for synthetic life because they lack empathy.

[lordnyx1]

MisterJB wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...
1) Says who?  How can you say for certain that synthetics are not capable of feeling emotion?

"Because the Reapers are repulsive.  They are devoted to nothing but self-preservation.  I am different.... I would risk non-functionality for him".  I'll give you one guess who says that.

And what allowed her to say that? Sovereign's remains.
Same thing on Rannoch, Reaper code seems to be what allows AIs to become truly alive.

Thus, how can you say that any synthetic that previous cycles created were capable of feeling emotions if they didn't have Reaper code availabe?

 2) Of course they are.  No one tried to claim any different.  But we don't run around killing every person we think might be a threat.  If synthetics are fully sentient, why should they be treated any differently?

I did not say they should. I said that any species that becomes superior to others, will treat those lesser beings with about the same regard we treat the fauna of our planet.
This applies to organic and synthetic species. It's just much more probrable to happen for synthetic life because they lack empathy.

"There was a hole. "
Was way before reaper code was upgraded, legion at least throughout his conversations seemed to be getting at least some basic emotions.

[RocketManSR2]

Sisterofshane wrote...

The quote was specifically that they were "turning the tide"...and it is a cut off sentence.  The end of that sentence is presumed to be "of the Metacon War."

Meaning they were winning enough to consider themselves to be winning.  Talking to Javik kind of convinced me that the Protheans were Anti AI before the Reaper War - which was why they felt the need to destroy the Zha'til in the first place.

Javik's thoughts on Legion also show that the prothean empire took a hard line on any synthetic life. What the Crucible does when activated also shows whoever designed it also didn't think much of synthetics. BioWare in other words. Just kidding.....sort of. Anyway, I was just trying to look at it lore-wise, not that BW actually cares about such things.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 02 mai 2012 - 03:45 .

[Delta_V2]

MisterJB wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...
1) Says who?  How can you say for certain that synthetics are not capable of feeling emotion?

"Because the Reapers are repulsive.  They are devoted to nothing but self-preservation.  I am different.... I would risk non-functionality for him".  I'll give you one guess who says that.

And what allowed her to say that? Sovereign's remains.
Same thing on Rannoch, Reaper code seems to be what allows AIs to become truly alive.

Thus, how can you say that any synthetic that previous cycles created were capable of feeling emotions if they didn't have Reaper code availabe?

 2) Of course they are.  No one tried to claim any different.  But we don't run around killing every person we think might be a threat.  If synthetics are fully sentient, why should they be treated any differently?

I did not say they should. I said that any species that becomes superior to others, will treat those lesser beings with about the same regard we treat the fauna of our planet.
This applies to organic and synthetic species. It's just much more probrable to happen for synthetic life because they lack empathy.

And how can you say that they couldn't?  The point is, if synthetics that have been upgraded with Reaper code (not Reaper tech, just code, i.e. 1's and 0's) can feel emotions, who says that they wouldn't have eventually developed this ability on their own? 

[ediskrad327]

Yo dawg, I heard you don't wanna be killed by synthetics... so when you are winning the war against synthetics i will bring synthetics to kill you so you don't build more synthetics that will kill you!

[NoUserNameHere]

ediskrad327 wrote...

Yo dawg, I heard you don't wanna be killed by synthetics... so when you are winning the war against synthetics i will bring synthetics to kill you so you don't build more synthetics that will kill you!

I prefer the image macro of the Rannoch destroyer that goes, "I'm here to save you from a war with synthetics." 

[Erield]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?

Quarians launch an attack to retake Rannoch. Shepard arrives to find the Quarians in need of help because the Reapers gave the Geth a collective brain boost. Because, rather than face extinction, the Geth chose to ally with the Old Machines.

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

I guess it is when you have a fleet of mega-synthetics around that have to justify their alleged reason for existence.

After just finishing a second playthrough, I'd like to point out that what you have listed in the bold part is a bit flawed.  It's stated that the created will always rebel against the creators.  That really seems to be the big focus of his speech (taken in hindsight).  Sure, he says that synthetics will kill all organics, and that it's inevitable, but not that it's inevitable every time.

That said, yeah, endings are stupid, retarded, use flawed logic, use circular logic, and use the problem as the solution to the problem.  (Reapers are synthetic and created beings.  Star Brat uses those to make sure that organics don't create some other synthetic race that then kills everything.  Here's hoping that the Reapers don't rebel against their creator and kill all organic life, right?!)

[Evo_9]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

"Organic life" is cyano bacteria. The reapers could drop an asteroid on Earth and they'd fail to wipe out organic life.

That's what makes the whole premise so insanely moronic.

They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

[fallingseraph]

The only thing I can think of is
Maybe the reapers were preventing the entire annihilation of life, like scorching the worlds so nothing livable would ever sprout and only synthetics would exist. They do tend to absorb synthetics along with the organics during their 50,000 year run.

[JShepppp]

If you know the candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked long ago. 

Modifié par JShepppp, 02 mai 2012 - 04:01 .

[Evo_9]

savionen wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Diagram is flawed.

The theory is that the catalyst created the reapers, not a civilization.

Still bad logic, or bad storytelling.

Either it was on the verge of happenening and the Catalyst was created to stop it and Bioware decided to leave that part out, or, there's no proof that it will ever happen because it has never happened.

Seriously though. Think about it logically. What reason would there ever be for a synthetic lifeform to kill ALL organic life. In order for organic life as a whole to be destroyed, they'd not only have to kill every Asari and Krogan, but every rabbit, every varren, every ant, every bacteria? Every protozoa? If not, life will eventually evolve again into humanoids, etc.

What possible reason would there ever be for that, and how would that be possible aside from straight up destroying the entire galaxy with a fiery explosion?

Well off the top of my head...

just say synthetics rise to a level (after hundreds of thousands of years, without reaper intervention) where  they are the dominant force in the galaxy. Organics try to stop the advancement but it gets out of control and they cant.

Now just say organics and synthetics have an argument about decision making, order...government...standard of living...watever....what usually happens when two parties dont agree? war? 

Organics wouldnt just sit there and take orders without a fight, look at the world today.

and who would win? why would they want to preserve organics? no reason, just wipe em out and end the resistance.

Thats just one scenario.

Matrix....terminator...list goes on.

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 04:07 .

[In Exile]

Evo_9 wrote...
They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

You're not getting it.

Did you take a dump this morning? That was "organic life". It had a ton of intestinal flora.

The goal isn't to save "organic life". It's to save "sentient" life.

 But if that's the case, you need to say why synthetic life somehow is different than organic life.

[Evo_9]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

You're not getting it.

Did you take a dump this morning? That was "organic life". It had a ton of intestinal flora.

The goal isn't to save "organic life". It's to save "sentient" life.

 But if that's the case, you need to say why synthetic life somehow is different than organic life.

Mate im going off exactly what soverign told me in ME1.

They want to restore the order to the chaos of organic evolution. They dont want to wipe them out, just to restore balance by harvesting advanced civilisations.

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 04:08 .

[NoUserNameHere]

Evo_9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

"Organic life" is cyano bacteria. The reapers could drop an asteroid on Earth and they'd fail to wipe out organic life.

That's what makes the whole premise so insanely moronic.

They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

... for no real purpose. They're not saving the less advaced life; their turn at genocide will come once they reach the stars.

[In Exile]

fallingseraph wrote...

The only thing I can think of is
Maybe the reapers were preventing the entire annihilation of life, like scorching the worlds so nothing livable would ever sprout and only synthetics would exist. They do tend to absorb synthetics along with the organics during their 50,000 year run.

Which, of course, is meaningless, because supernovas.

[Evo_9]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

"Organic life" is cyano bacteria. The reapers could drop an asteroid on Earth and they'd fail to wipe out organic life.

That's what makes the whole premise so insanely moronic.

They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

 They're not saving the less advaced life;

Yes they are.

Because advanced civilisations apparently will create AI that wipes everyone out.

To prevent this they harvest that civilsation and ONLY that civilisation.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes I find the fact that everything Javik said contradicts the Catalyst quite interesting, and quite possible why he was removed from the basic game.

Solution to Catalyst problem: since the Catalyst controls the Reapers, what would happen to the Reapers if they had nothing controlling them? Would their racial memories take over? Or would they go completely out of control and just kill everything?

You know that thread about the hidden on disk Xen dialogue regarding the Citadel? Get into the inner workings of the Citadel where no one has ever gone and plant a big ****ing nuke (50 MT) and send the Catalyst and his little dog back to Hell.

[In Exile]

Evo_9 wrote...
Mate im going off exactly what soverign told me in ME1.

They want to restore the order to the chaos of organic evolution. They dont want to wipe them out, just to restore balance by harvesting advanced civilisations.

That doesn't make sense.

There's no "order" to evolution. It is quite literally statistical randomness.

It's like picking numbers out of a hat, only the thing doing the picking is "the environment".

[NoUserNameHere]

Evo_9 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

"Organic life" is cyano bacteria. The reapers could drop an asteroid on Earth and they'd fail to wipe out organic life.

That's what makes the whole premise so insanely moronic.

They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

 They're not saving the less advaced life;

Yes they are.

Because advanced civilisations apparently will create AI that wipes everyone out.

To prevent this they harvest that civilsation and ONLY that civilisation.

Aren't they nuking Bronze Aged civilizations each cycle? I'm pretty sure some of the planet descriptions confirm this.

[JBPBRC]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Youre missing the point. The future is ensuring that organics as a whole survive forever. If that means you must destroy an entire species, so be it. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

"Organic life" is cyano bacteria. The reapers could drop an asteroid on Earth and they'd fail to wipe out organic life.

That's what makes the whole premise so insanely moronic.

They dont want to wipe out organic life.

They just want to harvest ONLY the advanced civilisations.

 They're not saving the less advaced life;

Yes they are.

Because advanced civilisations apparently will create AI that wipes everyone out.

To prevent this they harvest that civilsation and ONLY that civilisation.

Aren't they nuking Bronze Aged civilizations each cycle? I'm pretty sure some of the planet descriptions confirm this.

I dont' believe it specifically mentioned the Reapers as having done so. For all we know it was the Protheans. Or the Metacron guys the Protheans were fighting.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Mate im going off exactly what soverign told me in ME1.

They want to restore the order to the chaos of organic evolution. They dont want to wipe them out, just to restore balance by harvesting advanced civilisations.

That doesn't make sense.

There's no "order" to evolution. It is quite literally statistical randomness.

It's like picking numbers out of a hat, only the thing doing the picking is "the environment".

It's chaos. Without chaos there would be no evolution.

Yet this whole thing about bringing order to the chaos is a good vs. evil thing philosophically in a very very brutal and vile way. Most philosphies view order as good and chaos as evil.

[Evo_9]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Mate im going off exactly what soverign told me in ME1.

They want to restore the order to the chaos of organic evolution. They dont want to wipe them out, just to restore balance by harvesting advanced civilisations.

That doesn't make sense.

There's no "order" to evolution. It is quite literally statistical randomness.

It's like picking numbers out of a hat, only the thing doing the picking is "the environment".

Yes but they are trying to achieve order by placing a strict rule in the level of technology a species can reach.

IMO they have come to the conclusion that eliminating this key variable will acheive balance.