216 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Mate im going off exactly what soverign told me in ME1.

They want to restore the order to the chaos of organic evolution. They dont want to wipe them out, just to restore balance by harvesting advanced civilisations.

That doesn't make sense.

There's no "order" to evolution. It is quite literally statistical randomness.

It's like picking numbers out of a hat, only the thing doing the picking is "the environment".

The Reapers acknowledge this in "Retribution" and make the claim that becoming a Reaper is being elevated above this condition.

[In Exile]

Evo_9 wrote...

Yes but they are trying to achieve order by placing a strict rule in the level of technology a species can reach.

That's not how evolution works. Which is a big problem for ME in general, because 80% of it is based on inane psuedoscience.

Going "whoops, time to wipe out species x" isn't imposing order on evolution.

It's like saying you'd impose "order' on gravity by getting rid of birds.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
The Reapers acknowledge this in "Retribution" and make the claim that becoming a Reaper is being elevated above this condition.

Entropy would like to have a word with the reapers.

Not evolving != order.

[Evo_9]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Yes but they are trying to achieve order by placing a strict rule in the level of technology a species can reach.

That's not how evolution works. Which is a big problem for ME in general, because 80% of it is based on inane psuedoscience.

Going "whoops, time to wipe out species x" isn't imposing order on evolution.

It's like saying you'd impose "order' on gravity by getting rid of birds.

Well yeh youre right. organics have evolved, by shepard appearing before the catalyst, in such a way to render this cycle useless.

....it obviously hasnt worked in this cycle as the catalyst admits this, hence the need for a new solution.

[NoUserNameHere]

MisterJB wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Mate im going off exactly what soverign told me in ME1.

They want to restore the order to the chaos of organic evolution. They dont want to wipe them out, just to restore balance by harvesting advanced civilisations.

That doesn't make sense.

There's no "order" to evolution. It is quite literally statistical randomness.

It's like picking numbers out of a hat, only the thing doing the picking is "the environment".

The Reapers acknowledge this in "Retribution" and make the claim that becoming a Reaper is being elevated above this condition.

My ideal, non-twist Reaper motivation (beyond just being space Darkwspawn) is basically this. They're giving you a greater purpose  as a unified and immortal instrumentality hivemind.

[In Exile]

Evo_9 wrote...

Well yeh youre right. organics have evolved, by shepard appearing before the catalyst, in such a way to render this cycle useless.

....it obviously hasnt worked in this cycle as the catalyst admits this, hence the need for a new solution.

My point is only that the motivation doesn't make sense. Saying you'd remove chaos from evolution (or the galaxy, really) is like saying you'll make square circles. It's just a contradiction by definition.

[Oldbones2]

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.

The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.

[Evo_9]

In Exile wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Well yeh youre right. organics have evolved, by shepard appearing before the catalyst, in such a way to render this cycle useless.

....it obviously hasnt worked in this cycle as the catalyst admits this, hence the need for a new solution.

My point is only that the motivation doesn't make sense. Saying you'd remove chaos from evolution (or the galaxy, really) is like saying you'll make square circles. It's just a contradiction by definition.

Well i have to disagree, but thats my opinion.

If AI is the sole reason organics are being destroyed, whats the best way to stop this from happening?
Answer: Stop AI's from ever being created.
How can we possibly stop AI's from being created? 
Answer: Limit technological advancement

Another way in which reapers limit chaos of evolution is for organics to evolve along the paths they desire, hence why they leave the relays and citadel for the next generation, this stops organics from developing a unpredictable tech that the reapers will struggle to fight. Would you agree this somewhat limits chaos of evolution? 

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 04:39 .

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
The Turians as a whole are imperialist how?  They serve on a council with three other species, and they certainly don't work enslave the entire galaxy.  The Hierarchy demonstrates that they understand that they are very much reliant upon many other species in order to maintain it's place in the galaxy, and not in the "we own them" type of need.

The Turian Hierarchy is also called the Turian Empire.
They own many client species like the volus and many of this species were once enemies of the empire which were forced to become client races after they lost their respective wars.
Their first attitude towards a newcomer species was a deadly attack and occupation of humanity's terrority.

Yes, in the same way the Asari also have an empire - defined in it's broadest terms as a cilvilization that spans over a large amount of territory.  The Turians are not imperialist because they do not feel the need to posess the entire galaxy for the benefit of only Turians.  They understand that what is beneficial to the Asari, Salarians, Volus (of whom they do NOT own, btw) etc., is also beneficial to them.

The First Contact War, as I believe, came about do to misunderstanding and a fear of the unknown - both of which you perpetuate with attitudes such as the one below:

And again I have to question why any of this would prove that Synthetics would necessarily be the only species in which this type of attitude toward other species would be prevelant in every single individual?  When we can accept them as only having physical differences from organic civilizations?  In which every single point you have made seems to prove that it is not inherent in their nature?

Synthetics are not capable of real emotion like empathy and it's these emotions that prevent organics from killing each other (besides threat of retaliation, of course).
If an advanced enough AI becomes capable of emotions, then the danger they pose is as great as any other living being.

Especially when we undertand that emotions are not what stops us from being killers.  Indeed, emotions seem to be more responsible for killing than what Machines possess in droves - Logic. I would in fact, argue that a purely logical being would be less likely to kill then a purely emotional one.

Also, lack of emotions does not prevent one from seeing an inherent value in something - such as a life.  We see this demonstrated in ME2 when EDI claims that she wishes to help "her crew".  We also see it in Legion, when he states that all "life" should be free to self-determinate (and this is a Legion free from the Reaper code).

So again I ask you, in a universe in which we must wholly accept that life other than Humanity exists, and we can determine that AI's possess an intelligence reasonably similar to or even superior to ours, what it is that exactly necessitates that they MUST wipe out ALL of organic life?

[Evo_9]

Sisterofshane wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
The Turians as a whole are imperialist how?  They serve on a council with three other species, and they certainly don't work enslave the entire galaxy.  The Hierarchy demonstrates that they understand that they are very much reliant upon many other species in order to maintain it's place in the galaxy, and not in the "we own them" type of need.

The Turian Hierarchy is also called the Turian Empire.
They own many client species like the volus and many of this species were once enemies of the empire which were forced to become client races after they lost their respective wars.
Their first attitude towards a newcomer species was a deadly attack and occupation of humanity's terrority.

Yes, in the same way the Asari also have an empire - defined in it's broadest terms as a cilvilization that spans over a large amount of territory.  The Turians are not imperialist because they do not feel the need to posess the entire galaxy for the benefit of only Turians.  They understand that what is beneficial to the Asari, Salarians, Volus (of whom they do NOT own, btw) etc., is also beneficial to them.

The First Contact War, as I believe, came about do to misunderstanding and a fear of the unknown - both of which you perpetuate with attitudes such as the one below:

And again I have to question why any of this would prove that Synthetics would necessarily be the only species in which this type of attitude toward other species would be prevelant in every single individual?  When we can accept them as only having physical differences from organic civilizations?  In which every single point you have made seems to prove that it is not inherent in their nature?

Synthetics are not capable of real emotion like empathy and it's these emotions that prevent organics from killing each other (besides threat of retaliation, of course).
If an advanced enough AI becomes capable of emotions, then the danger they pose is as great as any other living being.

So again I ask you, in a universe in which we must wholly accept that life other than Humanity exists, and we can determine that AI's possess an intelligence reasonably similar to or even superior to ours, what it is that exactly necessitates that they MUST wipe out ALL of organic life?

Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 mai 2012 - 04:57 .

[JBPBRC]

Evo_9 wrote...


Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

Well obviously, the since the Reapers are the ones wiping out organics in the first place. Yo dawg.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

Microscopic bacteria obviously.

[daecath]

MisterJB wrote...

Winning a battle does not equal equal winning the war.
Who's to say the synthetics would not raise again and win this time?

You're right, it is entirely possible that the synthetics could regroup and win, and destroy all organic life.

Of course, every child born has the potential to become the next Hitler. So to prevent that, we should just kill every baby born.

The fact is, every sentient life form has the capability of making evil decisions, so let's just wipe out all sentient life everywhere. And then there are the non-sentient life forms that could eventually evolve to become sentient, which could lead to them eventually making an evil decision. So let's just sterilize the galaxy, completely destroy every life form everywhere. That would solve the problem.

[NoUserNameHere]

Evo_9 wrote...


Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

The force is a plot device. For what it could do, it is actually quite limited in the original trilogy. Its rules are quite limited, even if the movies never truly describe the limitations. Mass Effect fields are just like this.

'The created will always destroy the creator' as an unbreakable rule of the ME universe is simply not established in game. The notion of a synthetic v. organic rivalry isn't even really canon outside of game one. Even then, you have to consider that it was the Reapers who were the major synthetic threat back then. Now they're out to save us from a war with synthetics.

You destroy the geth over Rannoch. Or you side with them and let them fight with other species against the Reapers. Or you forge a peace and bring the two races together. Organic v. Synthetic is done as a theme. Why are we still talking about this by the endgame? 

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 02 mai 2012 - 05:08 .

[Sisterofshane]

Evo_9 wrote...

*snip*

Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

It can't be answered because there IS NOTHING that necessitates it.  That's the point.  The incomprehensible part is the continuing assumption after this point that it is indeed inevitable that Organic Life will be extinguished forever by a synthetic "devil".

That is like Obi Wan using the force to justify the slaughter of all Twi-leks.  Even within the universe created it makes no sense.


Besides, I don't think that Bioware has issued any specific statement claiming that Technological Singularity is indeed true.  If we know anything about the "worlds" that they create, nothing is ever framed in black and white.  They try (albeit horribly bad attempts sometimes) to paint environments and situations that are morally grey.  I find it hard to believe that they created the Catalyst intended it to be the end all be all source of information for a world that is fundamentally based upon the very reality that we are living now.  We as the player get a chance to decide if we believe the Catalyst and it's dooms-day prediction.

[Evo_9]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...


Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

The force is a plot device. For what it could do, it is actually quite limited in the original trilogy. Its rules are quite limited, even if the movies never truly describe the limitations. Mass Effect fields are just like this.

'The created will always destroy the creator' as an unbreakable rule of the ME universe is simply not established in game. The notion of a synthetic v. organic rivalry isn't even really canon outside of game one. Even then, you have to consider that it was the Reapers who were the major synthetic threat back then. Now they're out to save us from a war with synthetics.

You destroy the geth over Rannoch. Or you side with them and let them fight with other species against the Reapers. Or you forge a peace and bring the two races together. Organic v. Synthetic is done as a theme. Why are we still talking about this by the endgame? 

Ok i see what youre getting at.

so its not that you dont agree with the idea, its just that it was badly exectuted through bad writing.

Fair enough, they probably were out to make this another twist which failed miserably.  

[StElmo]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?

Quarians launch an attack to retake Rannoch. Shepard arrives to find the Quarians in need of help because the Reapers gave the Geth a collective brain boost. Because, rather than face extinction, the Geth chose to ally with the Old Machines.

Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

But I heard from somwhere that synthetics would always destroy all organics. That it was inevitable.

I guess it is when you have a fleet of mega-synthetics around that have to justify their alleged reason for existence.

Catalyst is a little lying bastard, and Shepard is a chump for believing him.

[daecath]

Evo_9 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
So again I ask you, in a universe in which we must wholly accept that life other than Humanity exists, and we can determine that AI's possess an intelligence reasonably similar to or even superior to ours, what it is that exactly necessitates that they MUST wipe out ALL of organic life?

Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

There are two ways to look at it.

From within the game, your statement is wrong. Obviously this world history has never proven that synthetics always wipe out organics, or else organics would not exist.

From outside the game, their ending violates the rules of the universe they set out. We don't have to know why the force functions. We just have to know that there are rules to how it functions. It flows through every living thing. Certain people are sensative to it. Those people have the ability to manipulate it to do certain functions. Those functions include: lightning, choking, clairvoance, precognition, mental control, enhanced physical capabilities, healing, inspiration, telekenesis, etc. etc. So far, the force has not been shown to be able to produce matter from thin air. So if a Jedi were shown to be able to conjure up a cup of coffee from nothing, that would violate the rules of the force as we know it. In order to make that work, Lucas would have to somehow explain it, and explain why we've never seen it before.

Mass Effect has certain rules as well. Like the force, you can't simply create matter from energy (oh, bye bye synthesis ending). They don't have teleporters or replicators. It's never been shown that any race has ever had this technology. It also has implied rules. Synthetics are a valid form of life. This is implied by the Geth and EDI. Synthetics don't have an innate desire to destroy organics. This is implied by the Geth and EDI. So to suddenly a) determine that synthetics are not worth considering in the grand scheme of things (evidenced by the starchild's solution which discounts the synthetics as anything other than something to be destroyed), and say that they have an innate desire to destroy organics ("the created will always turn on their creators") violates the implied rules of the narrative.

So from both an in game and an audience standpoint, the ending violates the laws that BioWare itself set out.

[Sisterofshane]

Evo_9 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...


Youre asking a question that noone can answer. Instead of trying to understand this synthetic logic why cant you just accept that this is what bioware says happened in their world and in this world history has proven that synthetics always wipe out organics.

its like me trying to explain to you how the force operates in star wars.

How can obi wan simply waltz through the storm trooper guards, wave his hand and say "these are not the droids youre looking for" 

thats doesnt make sense!!

The force is a plot device. For what it could do, it is actually quite limited in the original trilogy. Its rules are quite limited, even if the movies never truly describe the limitations. Mass Effect fields are just like this.

'The created will always destroy the creator' as an unbreakable rule of the ME universe is simply not established in game. The notion of a synthetic v. organic rivalry isn't even really canon outside of game one. Even then, you have to consider that it was the Reapers who were the major synthetic threat back then. Now they're out to save us from a war with synthetics.

You destroy the geth over Rannoch. Or you side with them and let them fight with other species against the Reapers. Or you forge a peace and bring the two races together. Organic v. Synthetic is done as a theme. Why are we still talking about this by the endgame? 

Ok i see what youre getting at.

so its not that you dont agree with the idea, its just that it was badly exectuted through bad writing.

Fair enough, they probably were out to make this another twist which failed miserably.  

It's worse than bad writing - it's bad philosophy.

It's based upon an individuals' fear and not an observation of nature as a whole or a relevant aspect of life gleaned through introspection.  It makes me sad on every level.

[Ultra Prism]

Basically ... Starbrat again wrong and now Sythetics always losing as creators or other organic spieces focus on combined effort ...

BUT

it is possible to create significantly more powerful AI that can be devastating ... not sure

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Yes, in the same way the Asari also have an empire - defined in it's broadest terms as a cilvilization that spans over a large amount of territory.  The Turians are not imperialist because they do not feel the need to posess the entire galaxy for the benefit of only Turians.  They understand that what is beneficial to the Asari, Salarians, Volus (of whom they do NOT own, btw) etc., is also beneficial to them.

The First Contact War, as I believe, came about do to misunderstanding and a fear of the unknown - both of which you perpetuate with attitudes such as the one below:

No, the asari do not own client races like the turians do: and yes, they do own the volus, being a client implies that a volus could leave the Hierarchy if he wanted to, however, any attempt from the volus to gain independence is met with a military response from the turians, they own them; and they do not attack other species and conquer their territory like the turians do.
What happened at Shanxi was a turian attempt to turn humanity into a client race. Nothing else explains their unprovoked destruction of what they believed represented the bulk of the Alliance fleet. That makes them imperialists.
What stopped them was the fear of intervention by the two races that can match them, the asari and salarians.

Especially when we undertand that emotions are not what stops us from being killers.  Indeed, emotions seem to be more responsible for killing than what Machines possess in droves - Logic. I would in fact, argue that a purely logical being would be less likely to kill then a purely emotional one.

Also, lack of emotions does not prevent one from seeing an inherent value in something - such as a life.  We see this demonstrated in ME2 when EDI claims that she wishes to help "her crew".  We also see it in Legion, when he states that all "life" should be free to self-determinate (and this is a Legion free from the Reaper code).

I disagree. Emotions are the only thing that allows living beings to place value on anything. Can you, objectivelly, determine the value of a human life?
EDI and Legion may have demonstrated rudimentar emotions but it had to have been emotions that allowed them to place any value in the life of organics.

Also, while emotions can lead to many crimes including murder, it is also emotions like empathy or remorse that stop many crimes. If a purely logical being determines that the safest way to achieve a determined goal is through murder, it will do so without hesitation. A purely emotional being might consider different alternatives rather than murder. Or it might do so without hesitation. Organic beings are not perfect, afterall.

So again I ask you, in a universe in which we must wholly accept that life other than Humanity exists, and we can determine that AI's possess an intelligence reasonably similar to or even superior to ours, what it is that exactly necessitates that they MUST wipe out ALL of organic life?

I did not claim that the extinction of all organics by synthetics was an irrevocable truth.
What I said was that any form of life subjectivelly superior to other forms of life will have little to no regard to the way its action affect these lesser beings when in the pursuit of its goals. We can see this by how humans treat our fauna.
And this is more likely to be done by synthetics; again, more likely; because they do not possess emotions that might prevent it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2012 - 05:57 .

[Joccaren]

MisterJB wrote...

No, the asari do not own client races like the turians do: and yes, they do own the volus, being a client implies that a volus could leave the Hierarchy if he wanted to, however, any attempt from the volus to gain independence is met with a military response from the turians, they own them; and they do not attack other species and conquer their territory like the turians do.
What happened at Shanxi was a turian attempt to turn humanity into a client race. Nothing else explains their unprovoked destruction of what they believed represented the bulk of the Alliance fleet. That makes them imperialists.
What stopped them was the fear of intervention by the two races that can match them, the asari and salarians.

The Volus - Turian arrangement is an alliance more than anything, yet they are still called a client race as they are under the protection of the Turians. The Turians are basically being paid to protect the Volus. Nowhere is it shown that if the Volus stopped paying, and told the Turian's nicely that they no longer needed protection, I severely doubt the Turians would just enter a war with them.
Secondly, read the Codex Please. The Turians attacked not because they wanted a Client Race, but because they saw an unknown race openning an unknown relay to an unknown area. Do you know what happened last time that was done? The Rachni war. The Turians attacked humanity to enforce Council laws, and to prevent another Rachni War from occuring, not because they wanted to expand their empire.

I disagree. Emotions are the only thing that allows living beings to place value on anything. Can you, objectivelly, determine the value of a human life?
EDI and Legion may have demonstrated rudimentar emotions but it had to have been emotions that allowed them to place any value in the life of organics.

But what does placing value on it have to do with anything?
Does something without value need to be destroyed? Do we need to blow up every rock because it holds no value to us?
No. Holding no value /= needs to be destroyed. It simply means holding no value. Not being worth something's time more likely.

Also, while emotions can lead to many crimes including murder, it is also emotions like empathy or remorse that stop many crimes. If a purely logical being determines that the safest way to achieve a determined goal is through murder, it will do so without hesitation. A purely emotional being might consider different alternatives rather than murder. Or it might do so without hesitation. Organic beings are not perfect, afterall.

Ahh, I didn't think you'd remember empathy or remorse, considering us Organics want to kill and enslave everyone around us. No, we are all scared of killing someone else as that will lead others to holding a grudge on us, and thereby killing us. This remorse and empathy stuff isn't what most humans are like.

I did not claim that the extinction of all organics by synthetics was an irrevocable truth.
What I said was that any form of life subjectivelly superior to other forms of life will have little to no regard to the way its action affect these lesser beings when in the pursuit of its goals. We can see this by how humans treat our fauna.
And this is more likely to be done by synthetics; again, more likely; because they do not possess emotions that might prevent it.

Yes, as all people starve and beat their dogs.
All people are illegal poachers who kill endangered species for profit.
All people think of animals as objects, not living creatures.

Or do most actually see us as subjectively superior to animals, yet try to fight to stop whaling.
Or take care of their pets, and love them like family?
Or try to preserve endangered species, believing they have a right to live even though they are subjectively inferior.


There is no evidence to the claim that subjectively superior life will always treat those subjectively inferior as crap, and with no regard. A lot of people actually care about animals, despite seeing themselves as their better. You know, that empathy and remorse thing we were talking about?

[Sisterofshane]

I did not claim that the extinction of all organics by synthetics was an irrevocable truth.
What I said was that any form of life subjectively superior to other forms of life will have little to no regard to the way its action affect these lesser beings when in the pursuit of its goals. We can see this by how humans treat our fauna.
And this is more likely to be done by synthetics; again, more likely; because they do not possess emotions that might prevent it.

That's the argument being made by the Catalyst however. If you believe what he says at face value and accept it's judgement regarding Synthesis, then you are acknowledging the fact that the Technological Singularity is the end point you want to avoid. You want to argue that the you are only making a case for a "superior subjugating the inferior", and yet you also say that synthetics are more likely to see themselves as superior, and as a result Synthetics and Organics will always be at conflict with one another.

But there are two sides of every coin.

A lack of emotions does not make Synthetic life any more capable of subjectivity. You agree with this statement by referencing humanity's treatment of what you deem to be "lesser" species.

We also see that you must agree to this reasoning as you tend to place sapient organic life above synthetics, believing them less capable of atrocities purely out of a bias toward our possession of emotions.

However, we know that emotions do not make people superior. One can argue that bears do not possess the same emotions as human beings - that they lack empathy towards any other being. My emotions, however, would not save me should I ever be attacked by a bear.

To tie this into my point, does the Bear's physical superiority to me dictate to it that it should kill every human it sees? No. Does my emotional superiority to the Bear tell me that I should wipe out every Bear in existence? NO. Let's remove emotion from it completely. Say I kill bears for sport. I get nothing out of it besides the knowledge that it is one less bear in existence (hard to imagine, but please remember this has nothing to do with how I feel). Does killing one bear necessarily dictate that I will be able to kill all bears in existence? No. Does it guarantee that perhaps the next bear I attempt to kill will not succeed in overcoming me? NO.

As it relates to ME3, imagine that the I (as the bear Hunter) am now all synthetic life, and that the Bears are now all organic life. Is there ever really a zero percent chance that organic life will be able to defeat synthetics? No. Synthetic intelligence and technology is not infallible. So there is absolutely no reason to take the Catalyst at it's word. Logically, total organic extinction is impossible.

So, I believe my counter to you is, that despite the conflicts that may arise, the end point will never necessarily be extinction of organic life. The differences between Synthetic and Organic are not irreconcilable. When we understand this, then the very reason for the Reaper's existence and the Catalyst's argument fall apart.

[Xandurpein]

MisterJB wrote...

Winning a battle does not equal equal winning the war.
Who's to say the synthetics would not raise again and win this time?

Now substitute synthetics with any nation on Earth that has ever been at war with your own country. Does that justify exterminating them?

[Silhouett3]

Lol. Why take Javik seriously when he's talking about their empire? All he's doing is repeating the "our glorious empire!" talk. Living in the past.

You might as well start to enslave your neighbours if you agree with Prothean vision of "natural order of things".