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[blacqout]

cerberus1701 wrote...



Hmm...so you were actually beating the Synthetics before the brat showed up?


Hmm...so you were actually beating the Syntheics before the brat showed up?

Do you not know what "turning the tide" actually means? 

[incinerator950]

The Angry One wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Can you provide any other examples of synthetics launching a genocidal campaign against all organic life on their own?

Asked this many times myself.
The best people could come up with was the Luna VI and the AI on the Citadel, both from ME1.

This ignores that both were reactionally and killed essentially because they panicked, the Citadel AI's only stated goal was to transfer itself to a ship and flee to Geth space, and neither came close to mounting a genocidal campaign, or even saying they wanted to.

Yes, but their reaction was to inflict harm. They were defending themselves, but one took out the Marine compliment on Luna, and the other would have detonated a bomb that would have took out that plaza, and probably more.

That says nothing. The argument is not "AIs will never kill people".
The argument is not even "AIs will never dominate organics". Because the Catalyst's only logic is that synthetics will destroy all organic life. Which has never happened and never even come close to happening, and the only times when AIs have had the position and will to even contemplate doing this in Mass Effect has been directly because of the Reapers.

So the point you made earlier where the Zha'ti took over the bodies of the Zha (sp?) where they did dominate the entire race isn't evidence? The problem with either point is there hasn't been solid proof. There is, a lot of evidence that AI's are as violent as organics and the examples we've seen that an unshackled machine intelligence will ruthlessly devalue something and destroy it.

Same as the Geth, where a Rebellion in self defense somehow prompted the Quarians to lose their territory and die in the millions. The Zha'ti forced the Protheans to put their sun into super nova. You don't say "turning the tide" unless you were on the losing end, and then began winning.

Really, the argument is moot. The logic for the Reapers has worked for millions of years, they were the victors. Their logic is superior because they've destroyed everything in their wake until now. Then their leader gives you the keys to a super weapon and freely gives you a kill switch, a god complex, and then mystical space magic. The only detracting factor is whatever makes his logic right or wrong, he has some evidence to support it. Not only that, the ending shows you that he was correct about what would happen. The only way you wouldn't believe what you saw was a deniability complex. I would prefer Bioware have actually elaborated, or even show flashbacks to why the Reapers came to this conclusion, but it won't happen, so this is what we got.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Geth lived peacefully, if defensively, in the Perseus Veil for 300 years. Some decided to leave the larger consensus and attack organics.

Why?

Oh right, that was Sovereign's doing. Its arrival caused some of the Geth to separate. So, the only example we have in this cycle of synthetics actively making war against organics was the Reaper's doing. 

The Protheans essentially losing the Metacon War? The Reapers doing.

The Zha becoming monstrous hybrids that attacked the Protheans? The Reaper's doing, again. 

The Geth nearly wiping out the Quarians before Shepard intervened? Guess who?

Every major conflict we've heard about in any detail had the Reapers as a root cause. Funny that. They've essentially caused what they've tried to prevent multiple times. 

Can you provide any other examples of synthetics launching a genocidal campaign against all organic life on their own? 


Actually, don't bother, because you can't. The narrative shift at the end of the plot is completely unsupported by what comes before. 

But wait, it gets worse.

On Thessia, the VI tells you that the Protheans had identified patterns in each cycle.  Conflicts repeating themselves over and over again, and they believed that some outside agency was at work; a force that also controlled the Reapers.  Sound familiar?

Has the Catalyst, for whatever illogical, unexplained reason, been deliberately provoking war between organics and synthetics for untold millions of years?  What the hell is the point of that?

[The Angry One]

incinerator950 wrote...

So the point you made earlier where the Zha'ti took over the bodies of the Zha (sp?) where they did dominate the entire race isn't evidence? The problem with either point is there hasn't been solid proof. There is, a lot of evidence that AI's are as violent as organics and the examples we've seen that an unshackled machine intelligence will ruthlessly devalue something and destroy it.

The Reapers forced the Zha to do it. They were being controlled. This is evidence against the Reapers, not for them

Same as the Geth, where a Rebellion in self defense somehow prompted the Quarians to lose their territory and die in the millions.

There are numerous reasons for this, including but not limited to the fact that the Quarian leadership is belligerent, there were Quarians on the Geth side being killed by the others and Quarians have no reservations about throwing civilians into harm's way.

The Zha'ti forced the Protheans to put their sun into super nova.

Because of the Reapers.

You don't say "turning the tide" unless you were on the losing end, and then began winning.

It means they had an advantage, which they lost, and the Protheans were now winning.

Really, the argument is moot. The logic for the Reapers has worked for millions of years, they were the victors.

By that logic, **** logic worked, since they conquered most of Europe and would've kept it had they stopped there.

Their logic is superior because they've destroyed everything in their wake until now. Then their leader gives you the keys to a super weapon and freely gives you a kill switch, a god complex, and then mystical space magic. The only detracting factor is whatever makes his logic right or wrong, he has some evidence to support it. Not only that, the ending shows you that he was correct about what would happen. The only way you wouldn't believe what you saw was a deniability complex. I would prefer Bioware have actually elaborated, or even show flashbacks to why the Reapers came to this conclusion, but it won't happen, so this is what we got.

Logic by the point of a gun is not logic, the Reapers won through superior technology. That's it. That proves nothing, especially when they have been causing the problems they claim to prevent over and over.

[The Angry One]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Has the Catalyst, for whatever illogical, unexplained reason, been deliberately provoking war between organics and synthetics for untold millions of years?  What the hell is the point of that?

A psychopath creating a self-fulfilling prophecy to justify it's existence.

[incinerator950]

The Angry One wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

So the point you made earlier where the Zha'ti took over the bodies of the Zha (sp?) where they did dominate the entire race isn't evidence? The problem with either point is there hasn't been solid proof. There is, a lot of evidence that AI's are as violent as organics and the examples we've seen that an unshackled machine intelligence will ruthlessly devalue something and destroy it.

The Reapers forced the Zha to do it. They were being controlled. This is evidence against the Reapers, not for them

Same as the Geth, where a Rebellion in self defense somehow prompted the Quarians to lose their territory and die in the millions.

There are numerous reasons for this, including but not limited to the fact that the Quarian leadership is belligerent, there were Quarians on the Geth side being killed by the others and Quarians have no reservations about throwing civilians into harm's way.

The Zha'ti forced the Protheans to put their sun into super nova.

Because of the Reapers.

You don't say "turning the tide" unless you were on the losing end, and then began winning.

It means they had an advantage, which they lost, and the Protheans were now winning.

Really, the argument is moot. The logic for the Reapers has worked for millions of years, they were the victors.

By that logic, **** logic worked, since they conquered most of Europe and would've kept it had they stopped there.

Their logic is superior because they've destroyed everything in their wake until now. Then their leader gives you the keys to a super weapon and freely gives you a kill switch, a god complex, and then mystical space magic. The only detracting factor is whatever makes his logic right or wrong, he has some evidence to support it. Not only that, the ending shows you that he was correct about what would happen. The only way you wouldn't believe what you saw was a deniability complex. I would prefer Bioware have actually elaborated, or even show flashbacks to why the Reapers came to this conclusion, but it won't happen, so this is what we got.

Logic by the point of a gun is not logic, the Reapers won through superior technology. That's it. That proves nothing, especially when they have been causing the problems they claim to prevent over and over.

In the six playthroughs I have played ME 3, not only have I not heard Javik explain to Shepard or Garrus why the Zha'ti decided to enslave their creators.  It was done out of fear of a dying sun, and the AI assumed control of their bodies.  There is no evidence on Javik's part to do anything but assume that.  This is not a Rachni situation where the Reapers are a millenia behind schedule. 

No argument on Quarian leadership.

Yes, it did work.  Motives don't devalue someone's logic, only their failure or success.  Opinion can't change how good or bad something was. 

It proves their logic still exists, and we have little evidence besides survival to contradict it.  Which is all you need to fight it.  :happy:

[Dendio1]

Hudathan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

This makes the entire Synthetic Vs. Organic premise even more ridiculous in the Mass Effect Universe - a universe in which we humans have already accepted that there is sapient life out there that isn't humanity.

To be fair, that's what a lot of people see as Bioware's attempt to frame the franchise in a generally ideal setting. The fact that the Council even exists and that the Turians didn't just turn into the chaotic evil bad guys from Independence Day and kill us all in the First Contact War is really honestly amazing.

Silent Step 305 wrote...

To bad we don't get more of the catalyst's "perspective" before we make our choice.

Would've been nice, that stuff is interesting.

This is an interesting premise. The rest of the galaxy had already contained a peaceful coexistance by the time the turians met the humans. I imagine the brief war was extremely one sided. The council is probably the reason the turians decided to reach out and work with the humans rather than wipe them out or enslave them. I imagine the first time a translator allowed a turian to speak english the humans did a double take at the talking roach

[The Night Mammoth]

incinerator950 wrote...

So the point you made earlier where the Zha'ti took over the bodies of the Zha (sp?) where they did dominate the entire race isn't evidence?

It's evidence of the Reapers YET AGAIN causing what they apparently want to prevent.

The problem with either point is there hasn't been solid proof. There is, a lot of evidence that AI's are as violent as organics

Proof of nothing but that synthetics aren't different or special in their reaction to others. 

and the examples we've seen that an unshackled machine intelligence will ruthlessly devalue something and destroy it.

I'm not even sure what that means. We have seven examples of unshackled AI's. 

The synthetics of the Metacon War. Motive unknown, nature unknown. They fought the Protheans, the Protheans were winning until the Reapers showed up. 

The Zah'til. Peaceful hybrids. Turned on the galaxy when the Reapers manipulated the subservient AI's in the Zha's synthetic components. Were destroyed by the Protheans. 

The Geth. Created by the Quarians, achieved sapience. Threatened with extinction, they rebelled in self-defense against an enemy that spent almost everything they had to destroy them. Despite this, they felt no ill-will towards their creators or organics in general, and in fact looked after Rannoch as caretakers awaiting the Quarian's return. 

The Heretics. A Geth sub-faction that were the only ones to go beyond the veil in three hundred years. The only Geth with ill-will toward organics. They show the same emotional reasoning as organics express. This all occured because of Sovereign.

The AI on Luna. Became self-aware, and acted out with violence in a hysteria of confusion and fear. Deactivated by Shepard. 

The AI on the Citadel. Perception colored by experiences, just like every organic. Did not want to kill all organic life. 

EDI. Need I say more? She effectively became human by the end of ME3 thanks to Shepard. Displays feelings of love, friendship, sympathy, and hatred. 

So, I'll ask you this. Did any of the above decide to wipe out all organic life of their own volition or express this motive or eventual goal by their own reasoning? 

Same as the Geth, where a Rebellion in self defense somehow prompted the Quarians to lose their territory and die in the millions.

Yes, because the Geth were young, saw a threat, and the Quarians would not give up. When given the opportunity to kill off all Quarians, they refused. 

The Zha'ti forced the Protheans to put their sun into super nova.

Yes, because the Reapers meddled in the events of that cycle. 

You don't say "turning the tide" unless you were on the losing end, and then began winning.

And then began winning. Until the Reapers showed up. 

Really, the argument is moot. The logic for the Reapers has worked for millions of years, they were the victors. Their logic is superior because they've destroyed everything in their wake until now.

Their logic is not superior. Their weaponry is more powerful, which unfortunately is pointed thanks to flawed reasoning.

Then their leader gives you the keys to a super weapon and freely gives you a kill switch, a god complex, and then mystical space magic. The only detracting factor is whatever makes his logic right or wrong, he has some evidence to support it.

It has nothing. Literally nothing, whilst Shepard has half a dozen examples to the contrary. Dont' bullsh*t me about how it's 'something that could happen in the future', because that line of reasoning is worthless. Operating on a scale of infinite time where every possibility will come to pass eventually is flawed, it proves you wrong as much as it wroves you right. 

Not only that, the ending shows you that he was correct about what would happen. The only way you wouldn't believe what you saw was a deniability complex. I would prefer Bioware have actually elaborated, or even show flashbacks to why the Reapers came to this conclusion, but it won't happen, so this is what we got.

The ending proves nothing. It proves that Shepard is a shmuck who goes along with what some obviously deceptive hologram tells him, despite everything it saying being flawed in reasoning.

It certainly does not prove that the Catalyst's problem is real, or that it says will come to pass is correct. 

[Joe1962]

The Angry One wrote...

Logic by the point of a gun is not logic, the Reapers won through superior technology. That's it. That proves nothing, especially when they have been causing the problems they claim to prevent over and over.

^This^ is the fatal flaw that I see in the brat's logic.

I hate that brat. I now wish in the beginning when the shuttle is shot down that:

Shep: "Joker I want you to strafe that shuttle debris. Two runs with the thanix cannon."

Joker: "Uh...why???"

Shep: "Trust me on this. It's for the best."

[Eain]

The Angry One wrote...

It gets worse, the Zha'till who the Protheans were fighting weren't even synthetics, they were hybrids.
Knowing the Protheans, they probably started the war.

The Reapers were the ones who forced the AIs to overtake their hosts, turning the Zha'till into monsters.

Just think about this for a second. Not only is Javik - the only major character to carry the theme of organics vs. synthetics in all of ME3 - a DLC character not part of the main game, almost every revelation of his subverts the Catalyst's claims completely.

Brilliant piece of marketing. Pay 10 bucks to make the ending worse and then get more of it for free.

Awww. Yeeee.

[Dendio1]

Oldbones2 wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.

The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.

Star kid created the reapers...and hes still around

[Dendio1]

Eain wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

It gets worse, the Zha'till who the Protheans were fighting weren't even synthetics, they were hybrids.
Knowing the Protheans, they probably started the war.

The Reapers were the ones who forced the AIs to overtake their hosts, turning the Zha'till into monsters.

Just think about this for a second. Not only is Javik - the only major character to carry the theme of organics vs. synthetics in all of ME3 - a DLC character not part of the main game, almost every revelation of his subverts the Catalyst's claims completely.

Brilliant piece of marketing. Pay 10 bucks to make the ending worse and then get more of it for free.

Awww. Yeeee.

Forget the ending, Javik made the journey to the ending better. I wish I had him back in ME1 and 2.

Also Destroy should have Javik gleefully skipping over to the tube instead of anderson.
Everyone knows breaking the tube is a metaphor for tossing all synthetics out the galaxies largest airlock.

Modifié par Dendio1, 02 mai 2012 - 05:13 .

[The Night Mammoth]

incinerator950 wrote...

In the six playthroughs I have played ME 3, not only have I not heard Javik explain to Shepard or Garrus why the Zha'ti decided to enslave their creators.  It was done out of fear of a dying sun, and the AI assumed control of their bodies.  There is no evidence on Javik's part to do anything but assume that.  This is not a Rachni situation where the Reapers are a millenia behind schedule.  

It's in the Codex. 

Another problem right there: potentially important plot points aren't explained in dialogue. 

It proves their logic still exists, and we have little evidence besides survival to contradict it.  Which is all you need to fight it.  :happy:

Whilst they have literally nothing to prove it correct. 

See the problem there? Burden of proof rings true once more. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Dendio1 wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.

The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.

Star kid created the reapers...and hes still around

How does that prove anything? How would it prove anything even if it were true? 

[The Angry One]

Actually the Zha'till are apparently explained if you take Javik to the Geth dreadnought.
I haven't done so since that'd mean playing ME3, but the info hasn't been taken off the wiki yet. Btw the Protheans making their sun nova is from the same source.

So if we take that as fact, the Reapers caused all the problems.
If it's not true then... the Zha'til are an object example of the dangers of hybridisation. well actually they're this either way.

[rachellouise]

what if they just ran out of time? The reapers come every 50k years, if they had beaten the synthetics before that deadline, maybe the catalyst would have realized his solution wouldn't work any more at that point, or that it wa possible to fight the machines, and win.

Modifié par rachellouise, 02 mai 2012 - 05:23 .

[incinerator950]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

In the six playthroughs I have played ME 3, not only have I not heard Javik explain to Shepard or Garrus why the Zha'ti decided to enslave their creators.  It was done out of fear of a dying sun, and the AI assumed control of their bodies.  There is no evidence on Javik's part to do anything but assume that.  This is not a Rachni situation where the Reapers are a millenia behind schedule.  

It's in the Codex. 

Another problem right there: potentially important plot points aren't explained in dialogue. 

It proves their logic still exists, and we have little evidence besides survival to contradict it.  Which is all you need to fight it.  :happy:

Whilst they have literally nothing to prove it correct. 

See the problem there? Burden of proof rings true once more. 

Codex you say?  I shall begin reading now while I find a pair of pants for my interview soon.  

Yes, but they have an equal supportive evidence, while we have an equal supporting evidence saying its wrong. 

Basically: plot wut

[incinerator950]

The Angry One wrote...

Actually the Zha'till are apparently explained if you take Javik to the Geth dreadnought.
I haven't done so since that'd mean playing ME3, but the info hasn't been taken off the wiki yet. Btw the Protheans making their sun nova is from the same source.

So if we take that as fact, the Reapers caused all the problems.
If it's not true then... the Zha'til are an object example of the dangers of hybridisation. well actually they're this either way.

No no, you're right.  However, this is something you could use to counter Synthesis.

[NS Wizdum]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.

The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.

Star kid created the reapers...and hes still around

How does that prove anything? How would it prove anything even if it were true? 

The star kid states that the created will always rebel against the creators.

The star kid created the repears.

more time has passed "than we can even fathom".

The reapers have not rebelled against the star kid.

Therefore, given "more time than we can fathom", the star kid's theory did not prove true.

[Pride Demon]

The Angry One wrote...

Actually the Zha'till are apparently explained if you take Javik to the Geth dreadnought.
I haven't done so since that'd mean playing ME3, but the info hasn't been taken off the wiki yet. Btw the Protheans making their sun nova is from the same source.

So if we take that as fact, the Reapers caused all the problems.
If it's not true then... the Zha'til are an object example of the dangers of hybridisation. well actually they're this either way.

If by hybridization you mean installing a VI/AI in you brain I agree, but we had Overlord to get the point across one game ago...
If by hybridization you mean augmenting yourself with tech, that's another beast entirely...

[lordnyx1]

NS Wizdum wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.

The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.

Star kid created the reapers...and hes still around

How does that prove anything? How would it prove anything even if it were true? 

The star kid states that the created will always rebel against the creators.

The star kid created the repears.

more time has passed "than we can even fathom".

The reapers have not rebelled against the star kid.

Therefore, given "more time than we can fathom", the star kid's theory did not prove true.

Big C says, "Perhaps. I control the Reapers they are my solution." nothing about actually creating them just controlling them much like say you control where your car goes but (generally) didn't create it.

[The Angry One]

Pride Demon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Actually the Zha'till are apparently explained if you take Javik to the Geth dreadnought.
I haven't done so since that'd mean playing ME3, but the info hasn't been taken off the wiki yet. Btw the Protheans making their sun nova is from the same source.

So if we take that as fact, the Reapers caused all the problems.
If it's not true then... the Zha'til are an object example of the dangers of hybridisation. well actually they're this either way.

If by hybridization you mean installing a VI/AI in you brain I agree, but we had Overlord to get the point across one game ago...
If by hybridization you mean augmenting yourself with tech, that's another beast entirely...

Well I mean both, since synthesis affects everything, mind and body.

I mean if all synthetics and organics are truly the same.... Geth can jump platforms. So does that mean we can all jump platforms now? Or just the Geth? Can the Geth jump into our brains? Can they take it over? Will we all be Geth?

Maybe that will be in the EC DLC. Joker and EDI embrace, then turn to face the camera and say "We are all Geth."

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 mai 2012 - 05:39 .

[The Night Mammoth]

incinerator950 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

In the six playthroughs I have played ME 3, not only have I not heard Javik explain to Shepard or Garrus why the Zha'ti decided to enslave their creators.  It was done out of fear of a dying sun, and the AI assumed control of their bodies.  There is no evidence on Javik's part to do anything but assume that.  This is not a Rachni situation where the Reapers are a millenia behind schedule.  

It's in the Codex. 

Another problem right there: potentially important plot points aren't explained in dialogue. 

It proves their logic still exists, and we have little evidence besides survival to contradict it.  Which is all you need to fight it.  :happy:

Whilst they have literally nothing to prove it correct. 

See the problem there? Burden of proof rings true once more. 

Codex you say?  I shall begin reading now while I find a pair of pants for my interview soon.  

Yes, but they have an equal supportive evidence, while we have an equal supporting evidence saying its wrong. 

Basically: plot wut

Well......... no, there isn't equal supporting evidence. 

From what we know thanks to the game, the Catalyst is using flawed logic, whilst we have fine enough reasoning and examples to support it. 

[Warrior Craess]

2484Stryker wrote...

When you go to a hospital, they will irradiate your entire body and kills off all mature healthy cells because cancer cells could always develop and kill off all your cells.

What?  lol you thinking the scanners are there for your health?  

LOL, too funny.