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#201
The Night Mammoth

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NS Wizdum wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.


The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.




Star kid created the reapers...and hes still around


How does that prove anything? How would it prove anything even if it were true? 


The star kid states that the created will always rebel against the creators.

The star kid created the repears.

more time has passed "than we can even fathom".

The reapers have not rebelled against the star kid.

Therefore, given "more time than we can fathom", the star kid's theory did not prove true.



True, I guess, but we don't know the Catalyst created the Reapers, it never says that. They're its solution, but not necessarily its creation. 

Obviously the Reapers are made of dead organics. So, something would have had to kill the organics to melt them down. 

But that would mean that organics survived long enough to reach this stage where they had this awesome power, but decided to invent this stupid cycle instead of just killing the synthetics whenever they arise, or educate new civilizations. 

Or it was synthetics that created the Reapers out of their organic masters, which would contradict the original premise in multiple ways. 

#202
NS Wizdum

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lordnyx1 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Warod wrote...

Something created the Reapers. Then that something was wiped. They are the proof.


The absense of evidence does not constitute evidence.




Star kid created the reapers...and hes still around


How does that prove anything? How would it prove anything even if it were true? 


The star kid states that the created will always rebel against the creators.

The star kid created the repears.

more time has passed "than we can even fathom".

The reapers have not rebelled against the star kid.

Therefore, given "more time than we can fathom", the star kid's theory did not prove true.


Big C says, "Perhaps. I control the Reapers they are my solution." nothing about actually creating them just controlling them much like say you control where your car goes but (generally) didn't create it.


So the reapers are his solution, and he controls them, but he didn't create them? I call BS on that. Did he just wait around for someone to create a race of synthetics that were perfect for what he wanted to do? You don't have someone else create a solution for you (unless you control them, gah, circular logic), and you don't call it your solution if someone else did it.

#203
EricHVela

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justafan wrote...

I never made the connection, good catch OP. :)



#204
Pride Demon

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The Angry One wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Actually the Zha'till are apparently explained if you take Javik to the Geth dreadnought.
I haven't done so since that'd mean playing ME3, but the info hasn't been taken off the wiki yet. Btw the Protheans making their sun nova is from the same source.

So if we take that as fact, the Reapers caused all the problems.
If it's not true then... the Zha'til are an object example of the dangers of hybridisation. well actually they're this either way.

If by hybridization you mean installing a VI/AI in you brain I agree, but we had Overlord to get the point across one game ago...
If by hybridization you mean augmenting yourself with tech, that's another beast entirely...


Well I mean both, since synthesis affects everything, mind and body.

I mean if all synthetics and organics are truly the same.... Geth can jump platforms. So does that mean we can all jump platforms now? Or just the Geth? Can the Geth jump into our brains? Can they take it over? Will we all be Geth?

Maybe that will be in the EC DLC. Joker and EDI embrace, then turn to face the camera and say "We are all Geth."

Uhm... I was referring to... tamer hybridization, such as implants and stuff (like the quarians, or shepard): the Zha used implants not green magic, however they implanted VI/AI inside their heads, that's a lot more problematic than having, let's say, heavy synthetic weave grafted in your skin...

#205
MisterJB

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Joccaren wrote...
The Volus - Turian arrangement is an alliance more than anything, yet they are still called a client race as they are under the protection of the Turians. The Turians are basically being paid to protect the Volus. Nowhere is it shown that if the Volus stopped paying, and told the Turian's nicely that they no longer needed protection, I severely doubt the Turians would just enter a war with them.

Turian economy depends entirely on their "arrangement" with the volus. If the volus wanted independed, you actually believe the turians would simply accept this? It does not need to be shown, it's common logic.
That "arrangement" is an extorsion racket at best and imperialism at worst.


Secondly, read the Codex Please. The Turians attacked not because they wanted a Client Race, but because they saw an unknown race openning an unknown relay to an unknown area. Do you know what happened last time that was done? The Rachni war. The Turians attacked humanity to enforce Council laws, and to prevent another Rachni War from occuring, not because they wanted to expand their empire.

I do read the Codex and that is merely the turian's excuse. Like Charles Saraccino says, if I see a child reaching for a gun, I will pun the gun away because the child might hurt himself and others.
I do not shoot the child and then find out where he lives and shoot his whole family as well.

The turians could have stopped humanity from opening the Relay without anyone dying. Instead, they chose to fire on our ships without warning and then occupy one of our colonies. Don't tell me they were just enforcing Council laws and don't believe their lies.
The turians attempted to enslave humanity.

But what does placing value on it have to do with anything?
Does something without value need to be destroyed? Do we need to blow up every rock because it holds no value to us?
No. Holding no value /= needs to be destroyed. It simply means holding no value. Not being worth something's time more likely.

We don't need to blow up every rock because it holds no value to us but we also don't take the rocks into consideration when planning our progress. If we have to drill a tunnel through a mountain, we will just do it.
The same applies to any species more advanced than humanity. They won't place any value on us and thus, won't take into consideration our needs and wants when planning their own advancement.


Ahh, I didn't think you'd remember empathy or remorse, considering us Organics want to kill and enslave everyone around us. No, we are all scared of killing someone else as that will lead others to holding a grudge on us, and thereby killing us. This remorse and empathy stuff isn't what most humans are like.

Despite your sarcasm, you are right. Remorse and empathy is not something most organics feel.
I simply chose to point out those two because, as rare as they might be, it's still something organics have and synthetics don't.
Unless if loaded with Reaper code, apparently.

Yes, as all people starve and beat their dogs.
All people are illegal poachers who kill endangered species for profit.
All people think of animals as objects, not living creatures.

Or do most actually see us as subjectively superior to animals, yet try to fight to stop whaling.
Or take care of their pets, and love them like family?
Or try to preserve endangered species, believing they have a right to live even though they are subjectively inferior.


There is no evidence to the claim that subjectively superior life will always treat those subjectively inferior as crap, and with no regard. A lot of people actually care about animals, despite seeing themselves as their better. You know, that empathy and remorse thing we were talking about?

Yes, a lot of people care for animals. And yet, the fauna on our planet is becoming more and more endangered everyday. Their habitats are destroyed and the best they can hope for is a zoo or adapting to domestic life.
So, maybe subjectively superior life forms won't always cause the extinction of those inferior (just most of the time) but the idea of humanity living in the galaxy as animals live on Earth today is not something I cherish.

#206
incinerator950

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

In the six playthroughs I have played ME 3, not only have I not heard Javik explain to Shepard or Garrus why the Zha'ti decided to enslave their creators.  It was done out of fear of a dying sun, and the AI assumed control of their bodies.  There is no evidence on Javik's part to do anything but assume that.  This is not a Rachni situation where the Reapers are a millenia behind schedule.  


It's in the Codex. 

Another problem right there: potentially important plot points aren't explained in dialogue. 

It proves their logic still exists, and we have little evidence besides survival to contradict it.  Which is all you need to fight it.  :happy:


Whilst they have literally nothing to prove it correct. 

See the problem there? Burden of proof rings true once more. 


Codex you say?  I shall begin reading now while I find a pair of pants for my interview soon.  :wizard:

Yes, but they have an equal supportive evidence, while we have an equal supporting evidence saying its wrong. 

Basically: plot wut


Well......... no, there isn't equal supporting evidence. 

From what we know thanks to the game, the Catalyst is using flawed logic, whilst we have fine enough reasoning and examples to support it. 


The fact that Synthetics are overly dangerous in every situation they are drawn into Conflict?  Under preservation, we've had examples of synthetics react hostily, and then continue to act hostile despite the circumstances?  There is evidence to support the Catalyst.  There is not enough of it shown.  We know little of it, no info to believe what happened, only the end result working.  Just like how distant the codex has been in all of the games.

No reason to argue it, just like the male ym who was disturbed by Javik's explanation of war in the Prothean cycle. 

#207
The Night Mammoth

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Pride Demon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well I mean both, since synthesis affects everything, mind and body.

I mean if all synthetics and organics are truly the same.... Geth can jump platforms. So does that mean we can all jump platforms now? Or just the Geth? Can the Geth jump into our brains? Can they take it over? Will we all be Geth?

Maybe that will be in the EC DLC. Joker and EDI embrace, then turn to face the camera and say "We are all Geth."

Uhm... I was referring to... tamer hybridization, such as implants and stuff (like the quarians, or shepard): the Zha used implants not green magic, however they implanted VI/AI inside their heads, that's a lot more problematic than having, let's say, heavy synthetic weave grafted in your skin...


I'm pretty sure it was more a case of augmenting their weakened organic forms with synthetic parts, and then using AI's to run these systems. 

These machines then forcibly took control and eventually replaced everything with synthetics. 

#208
Pride Demon

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well I mean both, since synthesis affects everything, mind and body.

I mean if all synthetics and organics are truly the same.... Geth can jump platforms. So does that mean we can all jump platforms now? Or just the Geth? Can the Geth jump into our brains? Can they take it over? Will we all be Geth?

Maybe that will be in the EC DLC. Joker and EDI embrace, then turn to face the camera and say "We are all Geth."

Uhm... I was referring to... tamer hybridization, such as implants and stuff (like the quarians, or shepard): the Zha used implants not green magic, however they implanted VI/AI inside their heads, that's a lot more problematic than having, let's say, heavy synthetic weave grafted in your skin...


I'm pretty sure it was more a case of augmenting their weakened organic forms with synthetic parts, and then using AI's to run these systems. 

These machines then forcibly took control and eventually replaced everything with synthetics. 

Actually Javik says they implanted VI in their bodies and minds to augment their intelligence, because their planet, like Rakhana, had few resources and was becoming uninhabitable fast...
I'm not quite sure in what way is getting smarter supposed to stop you from dying of exposure, but there it is... :/

Modifié par Pride Demon, 02 mai 2012 - 06:13 .


#209
The Night Mammoth

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incinerator950 wrote...

The fact that Synthetics are overly dangerous in every situation they are drawn into Conflict?  Under preservation, we've had examples of synthetics react hostily, and then continue to act hostile despite the circumstances?


What are those circumstances though? Self-preservation over immediate extinction or because the Reapers convinced them to do it.

There is evidence to support the Catalyst.  There is not enough of it shown.  We know little of it, no info to believe what happened, only the end result working.  Just like how distant the codex has been in all of the games.


Do you have a multiple examples of synthetics wanting to wipe out all organic life, achieving that, or almost achieving that? 

#210
ardias89

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Didnt think about this good catch!

#211
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Javik is the man. After Thessia, Javik tells Liara to use the rage she feels to avenge her people, (I had Shepard tell her to listen to him) yet Liara says she can't be that callous, which is totally out of character for Liara especially after LOTSB. Did BioWare suddenly forget what they wrote? But nevermind. Let's get back to the topic.

If you ask me the entire ending is one big mind ****. I don't know how to keep religion and philosophy out of the discussion because the ending reeks of it. It brings in "Intelligent Design" :facepalm: in the form of bringing order to the chaos.

C: "The reapers are mine. They are my solution."
S: "Solution to what?"
C: "Chaos. You bring it on yourselves. The created will always rebel against their creators, but we found a way to stop that from happening; a way to restore order for the next cycle."
S: "By wiping out organic life?"
C: "No. We harvest advanced civilizations. We leave the younger ones alone. Just like we left your people alive the last time we were here."
S: "But you killed the rest."
C: "We helped them ascend to make way for new life by storing the old life in reaper form."
S: "I think we'd rather keep our own form."
C: "No. You can't. Without us to stop it synthetics would kill all organics." (okay, then why in each cycle do the reapers always seem to interfere when organics have turned the tide and are about to wipe out the synthetics they created?) "We created the cycle so that never happens." (yet they enable it.)

So he goes and destroys the mass relays in all endings, and you either control, destroy or merge with synthetics. What a mind ****. And they wonder why we hate this ending.

Starkid has a god complex. The pervasive theme through world philosophies is order = good, chaos = evil. Yet it is Chaos that allows for evolution and adaptation to different conditions. It is set up to bring an internal conflict. Control has order = good. Destroy means chaos = evil. But the ultimate good is synthesis. Yet this is how a computer would see things. Chaos would be unacceptable since it doesn't fit with logical progression.

What I can't figure out is why those Prothean scientists who went and altered the Keepers on the Citadel, since they had to go deep within the place, just didn't take a big ****ing nuke and blow the place to hell. Oh, there wouldn't be an ME1 if they did that. I think we should do that in ME3 instead of this crappy ending instead of all that Cerberus stuff.

You know that discussion you had with Garrus about sacrificing ten billion to save twenty billion? sacrifice 15 million to save the rest? I'm sure we'd find out they made reapers in the Citadel. I'm sure it would be a firefight from hell in there too, and we'd die when that nuke went off -- the explosion (Citadel is a relay) would probably take out the cluster. Bekenstein was going to get glassed anyway.

But then the Crucible work would be for naught. But the reapers would not have anything controlling them. Maybe it would be like the Geth suddenly without the Reaper controlling them? You could finish them off conventionally?

#212
daecath

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Eterna5 wrote...

How was the catalyst wrong? He said that synthetic life would rebel against their creators, he was right.

Where? I've seen one true instance of that in all 3 games.

AI on the presidium in ME1 - This was a true case of a synthetic turning against it's creator.
Geth - This was a case of a race defending itself against an oppressive ruling class. Using this as an example of a larger existential conflict is like saying that blacks will always try to destroy whites.
Luna Base VI - an expiriment that failed, but ultimately became EDI, so bad example there too.
Rogue VI factory - result of a computer virus, not a willful decision.
The Prothean race's conflict with their synthetics - If I'm not mistaken, I believe that that was actually caused by the reapers.

So, in one isolated incident out of 5, one individual AI rebelled, Not exactly what I would call solid evidence.

#213
lordnyx1

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daecath wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

How was the catalyst wrong? He said that synthetic life would rebel against their creators, he was right.

Where? I've seen one true instance of that in all 3 games.

AI on the presidium in ME1 - This was a true case of a synthetic turning against it's creator.
Geth - This was a case of a race defending itself against an oppressive ruling class. Using this as an example of a larger existential conflict is like saying that blacks will always try to destroy whites.
Luna Base VI - an expiriment that failed, but ultimately became EDI, so bad example there too.
Rogue VI factory - result of a computer virus, not a willful decision.
The Prothean race's conflict with their synthetics - If I'm not mistaken, I believe that that was actually caused by the reapers.

So, in one isolated incident out of 5, one individual AI rebelled, Not exactly what I would call solid evidence.

The presidium AI doesn't really count either as thepresidium AI was also trying to save itself since its creator's creator(it mentions it was created by another ai to steal credits for an organic) killed/turned off its creator as well as knowing about the council laws about ai that said you can't make them/have to destroy them.

#214
Varus Praetor

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It's pretty well established that EVERYTHING in the entire ME universe prior to the last 6 minutes completely disproves the ending's ideology. It's the second biggest reason I consider it to be such a failure, after the multitude of glaring plot holes.

#215
Sisterofshane

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MisterJB wrote...

Turian economy depends entirely on their "arrangement" with the volus. If the volus wanted independed, you actually believe the turians would simply accept this? It does not need to be shown, it's common logic.
That "arrangement" is an extorsion racket at best and imperialism at worst.


I do read the Codex and that is merely the turian's excuse. Like Charles Saraccino says, if I see a child reaching for a gun, I will pun the gun away because the child might hurt himself and others.
I do not shoot the child and then find out where he lives and shoot his whole family as well.

The turians could have stopped humanity from opening the Relay without anyone dying. Instead, they chose to fire on our ships without warning and then occupy one of our colonies. Don't tell me they were just enforcing Council laws and don't believe their lies.
The turians attempted to enslave humanity.


Can't really argue against such a blatant disregard for the game's established lore.  With such a liberal interpretation of events that are established within the game it is no wonder why you believe Synthetics to be "evil", despite everything in the game telling us the opposite.

We don't need to blow up every rock because it holds no value to us but we also don't take the rocks into consideration when planning our progress. If we have to drill a tunnel through a mountain, we will just do it.
The same applies to any species more advanced than humanity. They won't place any value on us and thus, won't take into consideration our needs and wants when planning their own advancement.


Except for that plants and rocks don't fight back when they are being "threatened".  That's the differentiation for sapient life.  We understand the importance of defending our selves and our habitat.  If rocks banded together and defended themselves in an organized manner, we would be forced to question the nature of our expansion, even if we believed them to be inferior to ourselves because of lower intelligence, etc (think, Polar Bears,  protected endangered habitats, etc).  As it stands, only one species on this planet actually does organize "resistance" at this point in time - humans.

Yes, a lot of people care for animals. And yet, the fauna on our planet is becoming more and more endangered everyday. Their habitats are destroyed and the best they can hope for is a zoo or adapting to domestic life.
So, maybe subjectively superior life forms won't always cause the extinction of those inferior (just most of the time) but the idea of humanity living in the galaxy as animals live on Earth today is not something I cherish.


Tying this back into the game, as it proves my point in one of two ways...

The technological singularity doesn't necessarily prove that the Synthetics at this point would be "superior" to us in any way.  They will just become an "unknown".  We have plenty of instances in history of Superior Forces being brought down by groups of rag-tag fighters.

And, as a counter to the catalyst, he is using the above to justify the genocide of billions of civilizations.  But you yourself have admitted that the catalyst's reasons are not necessarily true.


Despite your sarcasm, you are right. Remorse and empathy is not something most organics feel.
I
simply chose to point out those two because, as rare as they might be,
it's still something organics have and synthetics don't.
Unless if loaded with Reaper code, apparently.


One can argue, however, that empathy is "taught" to us in our infancy.

This is a very complicated subject, but I will try my best to summarize.  Babies and toddlers have no inkling of empathy, or rather judging and understanding someone else's emotional state.  We can guess that the art of empathy is something that is taught to our children through their inherent utilization of observation.  Basically, babies watch us to learn about what we consider to be acceptable behavior.

So is not reasonable to assume that, given time, Synthetics would develop this sense of awareness?  In fact, in the game, doesn't Legion provide us with evidence of just that?  They are observing organics because they want to understand us.  That is the very nature of empathy.  We also have to remember that these sort of concepts came into being after thousands of years of evolution, and the geth have only been around for a few hundred years.  Given a thousand years they may have gained the emotional capacity to have empathy.  Right now we just don't know.

#216
Joccaren

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MisterJB wrote...

Turian economy depends entirely on their "arrangement" with the volus. If the volus wanted independed, you actually believe the turians would simply accept this? It does not need to be shown, it's common logic.
That "arrangement" is an extorsion racket at best and imperialism at worst.

What is common logic, and what we are shown, is that the Turians are working co-operatively with the Volus as a form of symbiosis, not oppressing the Volus and forcing them to hand over resources. Your paranoia - as I can think of no better word for the attitude you display towards every other living thing on this planet and in games - is what makes you believe the Turians are extorting the Volus, or ruling over them.

I do read the Codex and that is merely the turian's excuse. Like Charles Saraccino says, if I see a child reaching for a gun, I will pun the gun away because the child might hurt himself and others.
I do not shoot the child and then find out where he lives and shoot his whole family as well.

The turians could have stopped humanity from opening the Relay without anyone dying. Instead, they chose to fire on our ships without warning and then occupy one of our colonies. Don't tell me they were just enforcing Council laws and don't believe their lies.
The turians attempted to enslave humanity.

And police attempt to enslave people who pull out guns in the middle of a street.
How could the Turians communicate with us? They did not know our language.
The only way they could stop us would be to destroy our ships.

Yes, they then go to Shanxi. However, they did not mobolise any military to actually follow us to Earth until the Alliance mobolised a large strike force to attack the Turians at Shanxi.

Please try to understand that not everything has to have the desire to control and rule over everything it comes across, and of those that do have that desire, not everything acts on it. The only evidence you have of your claims is your suspicion and paranoia. Such things would not stand up in a court, and for the valid reason there is no logic behind such claims. Its like me claiming all cliffs want to push people off them.

We don't need to blow up every rock because it holds no value to us but we also don't take the rocks into consideration when planning our progress. If we have to drill a tunnel through a mountain, we will just do it.
The same applies to any species more advanced than humanity. They won't place any value on us and thus, won't take into consideration our needs and wants when planning their own advancement.

However, if we begin drilling into that mountain, and that mountain turns out to be a volcano that starts erupting, we won't touch that mountain.
We will fight back, and that will make it more logical to simply avoid us as we are an obsticle than to dedicate resources to destroying us. All this is assuming that synthetics reach a point were they are more powerful than us, and have not developed empathy or any other such emotions.


Despite your sarcasm, you are right. Remorse and empathy is not something most organics feel.
I simply chose to point out those two because, as rare as they might be, it's still something organics have and synthetics don't.
Unless if loaded with Reaper code, apparently.

Wow. How do you walk down the street?
Are you not cowering in fear that everything around you wants to kill you?
'cause seriously - that's your world view. I have never spoken to someone who seems to hate any life or intelligence so much as you do, or sees it in so negative a light. Your paranoia seriously is beyond my belief.
Believe it or not, I was being sarcastic due to the fact that most people DO feel empathy. There is not a single person I know that does not, and would be very few that I would ever meet in my lifetime that wouldn't.
The vast majority of the human populace has empathy, and a number of animals do to. Maybe if you didn't treat them so hatefully, you would see this.
You have also provided no reason why synthetics could never feel empathy. By the time they are that developed, it is more than likely they will have a full range of emotions. Remember that even us humans really are just machines - our circuitry is made of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, phosphorous, sulfur and nitrogen however. We both exist thanks to electrical impulses travelling along these circuits. By the time a machine mind reaches the complexity of an organic mind, it has every chance of being able to feel the same emotions as we do.

Yes, a lot of people care for animals. And yet, the fauna on our planet is becoming more and more endangered everyday. Their habitats are destroyed and the best they can hope for is a zoo or adapting to domestic life.
So, maybe subjectively superior life forms won't always cause the extinction of those inferior (just most of the time) but the idea of humanity living in the galaxy as animals live on Earth today is not something I cherish.


Believe it or not the best they can hope for is to be living in a sanctuary that has been decreed off limits for any and all development often due to it being a known habitat for an endangered creature. Whilst me may not be allowed to just run out and grab colonies at will, due to the development of "More important species", it is likely that we would be left alone for the most part. For all we know, that is what could be happening right now - Earth being declared off limits for development by some alien existance because we live here.
Not everything has to want to exploit us or end us. Believe it or not, a large number of beings on this planet, human or otherwise, do want to co-operate with each other.

#217
Joccaren

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NS Wizdum wrote...

So the reapers are his solution, and he controls them, but he didn't create them? I call BS on that. Did he just wait around for someone to create a race of synthetics that were perfect for what he wanted to do? You don't have someone else create a solution for you (unless you control them, gah, circular logic), and you don't call it your solution if someone else did it.


How about whatever made him made him to solve the synthetics problem, and he came up with the Reapers, so they made the Reapers, and he now controls them.

He is not necessarily without beginning or end. He, and the Citadel, had to come from somewhere. I believe Sovereign told us the Reapers made the Citadel, so where the Catalyst comes into all this is anyone's guess.