131 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
What you may feel about the artistic style of DA2 is your opinion of course, but I find the constant generalizations and assertations of "every" and "all" to be unfair.

Did you find these armors so very unrealistic? 

Regalia of Weisshaupt

The Last Descent

Armor of the Fallen

You have a point. I only played DA2 once.

None of them are like really realistic. But you can't demand that from a game. And I'm not going to either.

The armor of the fallen has problems. Because what has been done to it, in order to distinguish it, are those angular pieces of arc-welded, 3/8 inch, rolled steel plate. Why would anyone build pieces of armor like that?

Regalia comes from Legacy dlc, looks somewhat ridiculous to me (very heavy but segmented breast plate?), but I would accept it's thick-plated overweight as part of a cartoonish style game. My opinion is that changing style to cartoonish, just to do a variety of fanciful, thick-plated, 300lbs armor patterns is not well motivated. The situation has not improved. I'd much rather have less patterns, with differences in decoration. (A situation which is also realistic btw.)

The last descent looks reasonable. But looks like it would impede movements of arms very much. We can choose to ignore that though.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 mai 2012 - 12:42 .

[Monica83]

I can't tell how can someone say the artstyle in DA2 is better....

Ambience poor of content with huge flat empty areas..
Characters with a plastic look
Silly animation that reminds devil may cry
Clownspawn..
Pink Na'vi elves.. (probably the most ugly elves i ever seen)

Is awesome how the da2 darkspawns with the appearing of flemeth in the first chapter reminds me the power rangers...

Looking for a nice artstyle?

The witcher 2
Deus Hex Human revolution
Skyrim..

But not dragon age 2 xD

[HanErlik]

Monica83 wrote...


Looking for a nice artstyle?

The witcher 2
Deus Hex Human revolution
Skyrim..

But not dragon age 2 xD

All of these have a suitable art style for their settings. DE:HR's art style is inspired by enlightment age, because the game takes place in the second enlightment age, TW2 has a grim and realistic art style etc. The key point is the congruity of setting and art style. If a setting boasts with being realistic and dark, it shouldn't have an anorexic elf who swings a two-meter greatsword with lightning speed.

[Icinix]

Disagree on the art side of things, it feels too much like a dozen other medieval RPGs I've played and is a bit bland and quite frankly, beyond some poor texturing in places, DAO shat over it.

The combat speed I agree with, I thought the flexibility and array of options during combat was great - I just think the presentation needed a bit of work, it was waaay over the top. The combat principle was great, the animation for it was too exaggerated.

[Joben-Dallas]

I really preferred the 'grit' that Origins has, I'm not sure how else to describe it, the combat speed was only slightly out for me. There was really no need to speed it up as much as this doesn't feel like an RPG. The only thing I had a big issue with in Origins was the path finding for characters during combat lol that sometimes got very annoying.

I am a big man of ME but what I enjoyed about DA:O is that it was a really different style of game (though I wasn't particularly good at it ).

Bioware seem to have a knack for going over board on feedback people give them, like there is no middle ground.

I don't mind there being a talking PC though strangely I would prefer a silent one in the DA series, at least if it gives more variation to race and back story. I got it for £14 from Origin (some strange irony there hehe) so I can't complain too much.

Not a fan of the generic feel of the GUI even small things like this can really make a game 'feel' right, something Origins did very well.

Modifié par Joben-Dallas, 03 mai 2012 - 03:04 .

[hoorayforicecream]

I liked DA2's art style better, because it actually had one. DAO felt far too 'generic' for me. What about it made it distinct? What about it made it special? What set it aside from other generic fantasy games? Honestly, I didn't feel there was much that really set the aesthetic aside from other generic fantasy.

DA2 had distinctive looks, and I liked that. I could tell the templars apart from brigands because they had uniforms. Grey Wardens had uniforms. Chantry sisters had uniforms. I liked the architecture in Kirkwall better than Ferelden for the same reason - it was distinctive. I could tell that the major landmarks (Sundermount, the Bone Pit, Wounded Coast, Hightown, Lowtown, Darktown, the Docks, the Chantry) were distinct, while I felt like Denerim didn't really differentiate its parts very well. I *remember* Kirkwall. I don't remember much of Ferelden.

I also concur - the animation speed is much improved. While some of the other posters in this thread would say that they dislike the new speed, I've seen plenty of posts from players who tried to go back to DAO and couldn't stand the combat anymore. I didn't like the old combat animations or speed - it always felt slow and the hits weren't solid enough. I much prefer the new.

[eroeru]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I liked DA2's art style better, because it actually had one. DAO felt far too 'generic' for me. What about it made it distinct? What about it made it special? What set it aside from other generic fantasy games? Honestly, I didn't feel there was much that really set the aesthetic aside from other generic fantasy.

Examples please?

[hoorayforicecream]

eroeru wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I liked DA2's art style better, because it actually had one. DAO felt far too 'generic' for me. What about it made it distinct? What about it made it special? What set it aside from other generic fantasy games? Honestly, I didn't feel there was much that really set the aesthetic aside from other generic fantasy.

Examples please?

Which of these are Grey Wardens? I can't tell.



I can instantly tell who the Grey Wardens are in this screenshot:



To me, a good art style is memorable. It's distinct. It's something that you can see and instantly recognize as this or that. DAO lacked that, and I thought that it suffered for it.

[upsettingshorts]

Most of the people responding negatively to the OP aren't even talking about art style.

Because they don't know what an art style is, I assume.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 mai 2012 - 04:39 .

[Sejborg]

I can clearly see that your first pic is from Origins and the other is from DA2.

So that means both art styles is memorable?

[bEVEsthda]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

eroeru wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I liked DA2's art style better, because it actually had one. DAO felt far too 'generic' for me. What about it made it distinct? What about it made it special? What set it aside from other generic fantasy games? Honestly, I didn't feel there was much that really set the aesthetic aside from other generic fantasy.

Examples please?

Which of these are Grey Wardens? I can't tell.



I can instantly tell who the Grey Wardens are in this screenshot:



To me, a good art style is memorable. It's distinct. It's something that you can see and instantly recognize as this or that. DAO lacked that, and I thought that it suffered for it.

Well, I disagree. DA:O has an art style. DA2 has a mix of styles borrowed from others + DA:O. The only distinctive thing about it is the bareness and flatness. The flatness comes down to the rendering, which most people dislike a lot, but which I could grudgingly accept, if there were any good reasons for it. "Distinctive" is not reason enough.

And why isn't it obvious to you that the first screenshot is superior? And why do you think you're supposed to see who are Grey Wardens? That makes no sense. (And as far as I remember it, all of those - 1'st screenshot - might well be Grey Wardens).

[upsettingshorts]

bEVEsthda wrote...
"Distinctive" is not reason enough.

And why isn't it obvious to you that the first screenshot is superior? And why do you think you're supposed to see who are Grey Wardens? That makes no sense. (And as far as I remember it, all of those - 1'st screenshot - might well be Grey Wardens).

Your response betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what an "art style" is.  Just like most of the people responding to this thread.

The point of an art style is to be distinctive.  Origins had an intentionally generic look.  DA2 did not.  OP shouldn't worry, the art style change was deliberate and is likely to remain.  Source.

According to Matt Goldman, art director for BioWare's Dragon Age II, being generic was an actual design principle for the Dragon Age: Origins art team. While Goldman didn't direct the art department that worked on Origins, he's familiar with the instructions the former team was given: "Actually, the design creative was 'it's generic,' which isn't the most inspirational direction that you could give a team."  

Most of the issues raised by people in this thread who are reacting negatively to the OP aren't actually talking about art style but issues with the engine, personal preference for certain characters, and the short development window.  

For example, Alistair looking different in DA2 was not an intentional change as a result of the art style, but an issue translating his custom model from DAO to the new facemorph system in DA2.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 mai 2012 - 04:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

bEVEsthda wrote...

And why isn't it obvious to you that the first screenshot is superior?

Perfect encapsulation of half the conversations on this board.

[bEVEsthda]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
"Distinctive" is not reason enough.

And why isn't it obvious to you that the first screenshot is superior? And why do you think you're supposed to see who are Grey Wardens? That makes no sense. (And as far as I remember it, all of those - 1'st screenshot - might well be Grey Wardens).

Your response betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what an "art style" is.  Just like most of the people responding to this thread.

The point of an art style is to be distinctive.  Origins had an intentionally generic look.  DA2 did not.  OP shouldn't worry, the art style change was deliberate and is likely to remain.  Source.

According to Matt Goldman, art director for BioWare's Dragon Age II, being generic was an actual design principle for the Dragon Age: Origins art team. While Goldman didn't direct the art department that worked on Origins, he's familiar with the instructions the former team was given: "Actually, the design creative was 'it's generic,' which isn't the most inspirational direction that you could give a team."  

Most of the issues raised by people in this thread who are reacting negatively to the OP aren't actually talking about art style but issues with the engine, personal preference for certain characters, and the short development window.  

For example, Alistair looking different in DA2 was not an intentional change as a result of the art style, but an issue translating his custom model from DAO to the new facemorph system in DA2.

I'm familiar about what Bioware have said about this, about "generic". Much of this has been said as part of the dissing campaign of DA:O, in context of marketing of the changes in DA2.
It doesn't matter, really, for me. There is still a cohesive look about DA:O design. Distinct even.

The changes to DA2 were IMO much motivated by performance and economy. And one has to grudgingly consider those. But another reason was most certainly the stated goal of being "distinctive". I'm tempted to feel that there was a lot of EA marketing considerations about a wider DA-franchise empire behind this. Comics, anime-movies, etc.
The problem is that it failed miserably, since it's so revulsive to most people. If you are correct about it staying, in unmodified form (which I strongly doubt), well, then DA3 will become a very painful reality check for Bioware and OP.

As for "distinctive", it would be interesting to hear what the guiding design principle behind DA2 was. The only thing cohesively distinctive about DA2 is the flat rendering and stark, bare areas. It doesn't even manage to be completely cartoonish. As for the designs, they run through a wide range of different inspirations. From post-industrial apocalyptic to Final Fantasy.

The example of Alistair is not relevant for me since I've never complained about this. I would suspect though, that the rendering is as much to blame for people disagreeing with Alistair's as the change of the model.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 mai 2012 - 10:53 .

[upsettingshorts]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I'm familiar about what Bioware have said about this, about "generic". Much of this has been said as part of the dissing campaign of DA:O, in context of marketing of the changes in DA2.
It doesn't matter, really, for me. There is still a cohesive look about DA:O design. Distinct even.

Ah, you're one of those.

We have nothing more to discuss.  Enjoy living in your fantasy conspiracy land where words mean what you want them to mean, and are only relevant when you decide they are.

[bEVEsthda]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Ah, you're one of those.

We have nothing more to discuss.  Enjoy living in your fantasy conspiracy land where words mean what you want them to mean, and are only relevant when you decide they are.

You're a lot like that. All the time.

[upsettingshorts]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Ah, you're one of those.

We have nothing more to discuss.  Enjoy living in your fantasy conspiracy land where words mean what you want them to mean, and are only relevant when you decide they are.

You're a lot like that. All the time.

In the same way that convicts and military personnel both have a regimented schedule, sure.

[axl99]

OP enjoyed DA2, fine. You don't? Sure. Leave him the **** alone.

Unless some of you are artists yourselves and working in games you have no freaking clue what you're talking about.  Until then you're all just playing at being armchair designers with uneducated and inexperienced opinions on what is good and bad in a game.

Modifié par axl99, 03 mai 2012 - 06:19 .

[Joy Divison]

"Distinctive" and "memorable" do not mean "good."

They are also words I would never use to describe the Wounded Coast; even though I've seen it way too many times for my liking.

I'm not a fan of the "brightness" of DA2 for the lack of a better term, but my main problem with the game's artistic presentation are the seemingly anachronistic science-fiction display and the intentional lack of detail. When DA2 first came out, I remember watching an interview of the Bioware team member who was PROUD of the fact that they devoted less attention to minor artistic details; he used an example of the books on the floor in the Circle Tower in DA:O as how that was excessive. Really? That's something to brag about while promoting the game? And when I'm on the Wounded Coast, Lothering, or any of the other forgettable and generic outdoor environments, I can see that design philosophy in place. (Excepting the sunken ship off the Northern part of the Wounded Coast...nice touch, but is it really in the same state of disrepair for 7 years?  But then again, Kirkwall also does not change for 7 years..).

DA2 did put of lot of effort in some, or more accurately, few, things like the Warden's uniforms, the Chantry door, and the main companions. The problem is that this detail presents a stark contrast to the intentionally bland environments that I found jarring.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 03 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[bEVEsthda]

axl99 wrote...

OP enjoyed DA2, fine. You don't? Sure. Leave him the **** alone.

Unless some of you are artists yourselves and working in games you have no freaking clue what you're talking about.  Until then you're all just playing at being armchair designers with uneducated and inexperienced opinions on what is good and bad in a game.

Excuse me, I would think gamers have the very expert opinion on what is good or bad in a game. That's really where the developers' and designers' visions and ambitions hit the water, isn't it? And sinks or floats.

Gamers are much different, of course. It isn't one homogenous group. And that's where the OP comes in, just as I do. No one has any problems with the OP enjoying the game. Many have felt motivated to voice themselves on his specific desire for DA3 to have the same art style and combat though. And why shouldn't we? If we are convinced that might be a poor idea? Also, people are leaving the OP alone. There are no attacks on him. The squabble here is between other posters.

As for actual personal attacks, as far as such can be read into posts, they seem to come exclusively from one side of the argument.

[Maria Caliban]

Joy Divison wrote...

When DA2 first came out, I remember watching an interview of the Bioware team member who was PROUD of the fact that they devoted less attention to minor artistic details; he used an example of the books on the floor in the Circle Tower in DA:O as how that was excessive.

David Silverman. He's the Director of Marketing.

[Melca36]

Joy Divison wrote...

"Distinctive" and "memorable" do not mean "good."

They are also words I would never use to describe the Wounded Coast; even though I've seen it way too many times for my liking.

I'm not a fan of the "brightness" of DA2 for the lack of a better term, but my main problem with the game's artistic presentation are the seemingly anachronistic science-fiction display and the intentional lack of detail. When DA2 first came out, I remember watching an interview of the Bioware team member who was PROUD of the fact that they devoted less attention to minor artistic details; he used an example of the books on the floor in the Circle Tower in DA:O as how that was excessive. Really? That's something to brag about while promoting the game? And when I'm on the Wounded Coast, Lothering, or any of the other forgettable and generic outdoor environments, I can see that design philosophy in place. (Excepting the sunken ship off the Northern part of the Wounded Coast...nice touch, but is it really in the same state of disrepair for 7 years?  But then again, Kirkwall also does not change for 7 years..).

DA2 did put of lot of effort in some, or more accurately, few, things like the Warden's uniforms, the Chantry door, and the main companions. The problem is that this detail presents a stark contrast to the intentionally bland environments that I found jarring.

Hope they're happy the game only sold HALF of what Origins sold.

[upsettingshorts]

bEVEsthda wrote...

As for actual personal attacks, as far as such can be read into posts, they seem to come exclusively from one side of the argument.

I'll take self-serving lies and denial for $600, Alex.

Melca36 wrote...

Hope they're happy the game only sold HALF of what Origins sold.

It also took 1/5th-1/7th the time to make.  Given the turnaround on DA2 I wouldn't be shocked if they were pleased it even got middling reviews.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to sales beyond whatever any individual poster hated most about it.  The fact David Silverman doesn't even seem to like the genre he's pimping can't be good, for example.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 mai 2012 - 07:40 .

[bEVEsthda]

While we each are thinking about this, we probably all do an amount of cherry-picking, in our minds.
I'm going to try to state my position in a different way, by making that cherry picking visible. Even if people may vehemently disagree with me, and correctly point out it's cherry picking, they will at least now be able to see where I'm coming from:











I could do this forever. I have +5000 DA:O screenshots.
Is there an art style there? One art style? I'd say there is. Is it distinctive? Well, I happen to think it is.




Now let's go to DA2:










So let us talk about what is distinctive here, in these screen grabs. But by all means, also about the art style.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 mai 2012 - 08:02 .

[TEWR]

To the OP: I can't really comment on the art style, as I've never really known what art style means.

That said, things about DAII's environments struck me as very gamey and less worldly. Kirkwall was small and lifeless despite it being touted as huge and filled with people and changing to what we do.

The Wounded Coast, the Blightlands, and other environments felt far too linear.

I'm not sure if all that pertains to an art style, but it is one of my gripes about the game.

Regarding the combat speed, that is something I can comment on. I think the combat animations are great, for the most part. Barring a few tweaks to how the party fights, it's great. I think the most important one is... well... if Carver's used up all of his stamina and he's saying "I'm tired!", show it in the combat. Have his combat speed reduced by... I dunno... 25%.

And some of the more over the top elements -- like Aveline skateboarding without a skateboard while somehow ****ting fire -- I chalk up to Varric embellishing still. I mean, it makes sense.

Combat itself? That needs a lot of work.