131 réponses à ce sujet

[TrooperTethras]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I may hate DAII with a passion, but I won't ignore details like that.

True enough, I grew to respect the character myself (I was more citing other critics opinions and my intial reactions).
Still when it comes to portraying the elves, I believe I'm on to something.

Modifié par TrooperOnasi, 06 mai 2012 - 05:47 .

[TEWR]

Yea. Personally, I love the new Elven design. And I definitely agree with your post. Tweaks can improve upon the look itself in the future, but it's definitely off to a good start.

Athenril's great. Merrill's great. Fenris looks great. Marethari -- though I abhor her character -- looks great. Fenarel looks great. Ilen and Paivel look great.

There are a lot of Elves that look great in Dragon Age 2. There are some that look bad, definitely. Like Tomwise.

But the design itself is great, especially when you use the mod that puts the style in DAO using DAO's engine.

Now, how many times did I say great? 9 times. Wow.

*donates 9 dollars to the cookie jar*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2012 - 05:57 .

[Orian Tabris]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Also:

Origins:

 

Dragon Age 2:

 

I'm sorry but there's nothing good about DA2's artstyle or engine. It looks inferior to Origins at times.

Comparing these two screenshots, I'd say it were a mix of improvement and steps backwards, in interface design/artsyle. I won't go into everything, just what relates to/is shown on the screenshots.

Map: Better in DA2. Everything about it. Though names of the places, would have been nice.
Character thumbnails: Better in Origins. The backgrounds were more artistic and interesting, though, too big (and DA2's too small). Although, DA2 displayed characters better (their clothes/armour were easier to see).
Spells/Talents: Origins. The different colour schemes in DA2 made it easier to differentiate between spells/talents, but ended up looking kind of childish (or at least too simplistic).
Health/Stamina/Mana bars: DA2. Better defines all 3, though needs improvement, because I found it a little confusing. That is, the length of each bar seems to be vastly different between characters (Health doesn't reflect the amount, instead compares to other characters).
Status, sustained abilities, etc.: Origins. Easier to see what's going on with each character.
Menu: DA2. It's better to be able to press escape, to see the menus instead of having them constantly on screen. Besides, most of the time I find myself just pressing the shortcut keys, instead of clicking on the icons.
Environment: Undecided. The random objects (interactive and static) in Origins didn't make much sense. The ones in DA2 looked silly, but placement made more sense.

[Sutekh]

Rawgrim wrote...

And yet Merill shows up at the final battle, both her and Hawke behaves as if they have been best friends for years...

If your delicate sensibility can't even bear the very sight of her, then don't talk to her. Don't take her in your team for the finale. Having a char show up for all but a couple of minutes is not "shoved down your throat". Besides, there are ways not to have her show up then (can't tell because spoilers).

[Gibb_Shepard]

DA2 had the most bland general style i've seen in a video game for a long time. The envionments just felt so gamey, particularly the Deep Roads. I just felt like i was in long box. The Character's have absolutely no facial details, making them seem cartoony.

I despise the combat. I cannot for the life of me enjoy it. IMO, everything was just completely watered down and sped up. Since the enemy HP was so high, i felt like i was playing an MMO.

Keep these things the way they are and you couldn't pay me to play the game.

[eroeru]

@Orian Tabris

Wow. I agree with you. Though the health/stamina/mana bars I found to be superior in Origins, and the character thumbnails just right, it's pretty much a good overall judgement of the DAs' interface-designs.

Though the "Environment" part is tricky, and very controversial - I won't misinterpret your post. But I'm also fairly confident environments felt more narrow and streamlined, and boring overall - so I can't get myself to say anything about the "making sense" of items. I simply didn't like it, overall.

edit:@Gibb_Shepard
+108

Modifié par eroeru, 06 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[bEVEsthda]

"Good" is in the eye of the beholder. That's all there is to say on the matter of art. You can judge the technical aspects, the execution, but the core artistic value is never objective.

Case in point:



You posted this shot as incriminating evidence against DA2 visuals. I happen to like it a lot. To me, this drawing on the wall has a story to tell. It's not classic art, but it's poignant, and beautiful in its own way. I like it. You don't. Objectively it's neither good nor bad.

I wish you didn't chose to widen the discussion like this. It feels so unnecessary for me to go into misunderstandings which don't have so much to do with the issue. God only knows what I could do to DA2 if I ever made screen shots I didn't like. I posted it as part of a collection, during a phase in the debate where it was argued that DA2 was so much more distinctive, in a positive way, than DA:O.

I think the picture on the wall is fantastic. The problem is that it's either very modern, or almost neolithic. Compare it to paintings hanging on walls, to public sculptures. It doesn't fit in. It's style doesn't fit in. It's so utterly out of place it's funny.  ...A genius, brilliantly radical artist stalks the Kirkwall sewers. It's as funny as all them facepalms.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 06 mai 2012 - 11:13 .

[Reznore57]

It's a kind of graffiti ,what's wrong with that?
"A genius, brilliantly radical artist stalks the Kirkwall sewers" , so what?
It fits , painting , sculpting mostly are for nobles .Chances are they wouldn't appreciated that kind of art because it looks a bit primitive and echoed a sense of pain.
"Art from the street" is en vogue now , doesn't mean it always has been or didn't exist before ...Oo

[bEVEsthda]

Reznore57 wrote...

It's a kind of graffiti ,what's wrong with that?
"A genius, brilliantly radical artist stalks the Kirkwall sewers" , so what?
It fits , painting , sculpting mostly are for nobles .Chances are they wouldn't appreciated that kind of art because it looks a bit primitive and echoed a sense of pain.
"Art from the street" is en vogue now , doesn't mean it always has been or didn't exist before ...Oo

The nobles wouldn't have appreciated it. For sure.
The nobles may have thought it 'looks' primitive, but it's not.

[Sutekh]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I think the picture on the wall is fantastic. The problem is that it's either very modern, or almost neolithic. Compare it to paintings hanging on walls, to public sculptures. It doesn't fit in. It's style doesn't fit in. It's so utterly out of place it's funny.  ...A genius, brilliantly radical artist stalks the Kirkwall sewers. It's as funny as all them facepalms.

This is impossible because...? Personally, I think that this drawing fits just well with Kirkwall lore.

And who's to say that the purpose is not the clashing of styles? That the heteroclit aspect isn't intentional and give, by itself, character to the settings and is what makes it distinctive? Paintings hanging on walls will generally have different styles than what is basically an elaborate graffiti (street art). Real cities with history aren't one big uniform visual style. Or would you say that Paris, Berlin, Rome, New York or London lack character and that their non-uniformity is worthy of facepalming?

I'd say this kind of details - that drawing, the bronze statues, the chantry, the foundry etc.. - are the saving grace of Kirkwall. Without them, the city would be incredibly bland.

Modifié par Sutekh, 06 mai 2012 - 08:00 .

[bEVEsthda]

I think one can guess that DA2's style does a lot of things Bioware wanted. Economy, transfers well to other media like comics and animated movies, improves performance on consoles. And in some aspects, it is distinctive from other games. So far so good.

But from the gamer's perspective, particularly the gamer who loved DA:O, all was lost. Flat, barren scenes. Compounded by all the novel details: "WtF is this? A friggin giant pyramide spike on the chest, is that supposed to pass for armor? Horns? Spikes, yeah, but spikes and jaggies EVERYWHERE? - Clownspawns!? - Oh Flemeth, for *** sakes? Hong Kong back flips, explosion of blood, Is this supposed to be a joke? - Who did these new elves?".

Maybe the disaster is hard to see, if one is in the mindset one is making a new game. They did say they were worried about some backlash, but didn't anticipate the scale. Well, combine that we are now already disliking the game - or definitely prepared to dislike the game - with all the flaws...

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 06 mai 2012 - 02:28 .

[StElmo]

eroeru wrote...

StElmo wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Graphics are one thing, art another, as is quite distinct in my posts.

About "hundreds of other games that look like Origin's" - may I have an example (as I have asked, and never received an answer).

:ph34r:1. - Read my post, I clearly state the art style, you were the one who brought up graphics.

:bandit:2. Oblivion, Lord of the Rings, Gothic, Ruisen, Diablo III, Divinity, Warhammer...

I could go on, it all washes into the same style, it's gross. People who like DA:O artstyle are being traditionalists, who don't like change. Sorry, but I prefer my game's to feel unique, not generic as all hell.

DA2 has an excellent, clean and interesting art style and looks very different from any other RPG. This is a bonus.

Sure, they needed more enciroments and assets, but that is irrelevant, the art STYLE was very very good.

:ph34r:1. Ok, I'll quote you once again:

StElmo wrote...


DA:O looks droll. I hate it;s look and the gameplay is slow.

If people want old DA:O graphics, I think they are being unecessarily traditionalist.

:bandit:2. You can get distinctive differences in art between all of them and DA:O (though some are indeed very similar - the Gothic series, Divinity 2 and Risen the most)

Divinity 2 - bloomy. Unlike DA.


Risen - bloom, bloom and more bloom. Not like DA:O more dark and neat lines.


Oblivion - VERY distinctive


LOTRO - just as similar to DA:O as to DA2 (edit: no, I think this actually reminds me of DA2 more - the colors more than anything)


Diablo 3 - notice how the colors and contours are very similar to DA2's saturation


Warhammer - ninja flying skeletors ('-babies) - check; oversized weapons - check; stalinistic architecture - check. DA2 all over.



And now for DA:O


Notice the overall darkness, unlike any of the above bloomy games - and very majestic, Giger-reminding stylizations (the ogre).
No other game you listed is similar to Giger or any other profound artist. They're all bloomy messes without much personality. DA:O had personality. Hence it is not generic. (maybe the witcher is the only example I can find that DA:O nears)

edit: ok, maybe DA:O is also similar to the oldies in a way - BG had similar colors and monsters, in concept - also if you meant the original Divinity, that can go here as well. But for today's standard, the looks are not generic.

DA2 can remind of any cartoony game. (and by the way, cartoony often amounts to unartistic)
Shank or SWTOR maybe. Besides the ones you already mentioned.

YO DAWG, compare those games to DA2 and you'll notice how distinctive DA2 really is. DA:O however, blends in ridiculously.

Modifié par StElmo, 06 mai 2012 - 12:02 .

[bEVEsthda]

Sutekh wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

I think the picture on the wall is fantastic. The problem is that it's either very modern, or almost neolithic. Compare it to paintings hanging on walls, to public sculptures. It doesn't fit in. It's style doesn't fit in. It's so utterly out of place it's funny.  ...A genius, brilliantly radical artist stalks the Kirkwall sewers. It's as funny as all them facepalms.

This is impossible because...? Personally, I think that this drawing fits just well with Kirkwall lore.

And who's to say that the purpose is not the clashing of styles? That the heteroclit aspect isn't intentional and give, by itself, character to the settings and is what makes it distinctive? Paintings hanging on walls will generally have different styles than what is basically an elaborate graffiti (street art).

No civilization has anything like the diversity of european/western art. But no art is unconnected. It doesn't pop out of a vacuum. As graffiti moved up from just scribbling one's name with a marker pen, for instance, it drew on comics for its aesthetic genesis.
That picture on the wall is very evolved.
 
I don't think it's fair to demand of games' worlds or histories to be 100% credible in all details. I certainly don't. I'm quite tolerant. You seem to assume that I want to say that this picture is a big flaw in DA2? A failure of it's art direction?

No. I said it was funny. And it is. Just as the facepalms. As self-referential comments on the game.

Real cities with history aren't one big uniform visual style. Or would you say that Paris, Berlin, Rome, New York or London lack character and that their non-uniformity is worthy of facepalming?

I'd say this kind of details - that drawing, the bronze statues, the chantry, the foundry etc.. - are the saving grace of Kirkwall. Without them, the city would be incredibly bland.

I haven't a clue about what you're getting at here. It does strike me though that Kirkwall isn't the least bit of "non-uniform".
Maybe we should just delete this before it takes us very far away?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 06 mai 2012 - 01:34 .

[bEVEsthda]

StElmo wrote...


And now for DA:O



YO DAWG, compare those games to DA2 and you'll notice how distinctive DA2 really is. DA:O however, blends in ridiculously.

I don't think DA:O blends in any better. Is DA2 really more distinctive? And what is changed here, for that distinctiveness? Ridiculous armor for sure, with feeding trough, jaggedy, spiky, all made from heavy pieces of flat 3/8 inch rolled steel plate.
And is that sort of "distinctiveness" really worth the cost? Even if you approve, consider the wide, negative backlash.

[StElmo]

bEVEsthda wrote...

StElmo wrote...


And now for DA:O



YO DAWG, compare those games to DA2 and you'll notice how distinctive DA2 really is. DA:O however, blends in ridiculously.

I don't think DA:O blends in any better. Is DA2 really more distinctive? And what is changed here, for that distinctiveness? Ridiculous armor for sure, with feeding trough, jaggedy, spiky, all made from heavy pieces of flat 3/8 inch rolled steel plate.
And is that sort of "distinctiveness" really worth the cost? Even if you approve, consider the wide, negative backlash.

The poster who compared them deliberately chose an indoor shot, outdoor dragon age is way less distinct, meanwhile DA2 is more distinct outdoors or not.

[bEVEsthda]

StElmo wrote...

The poster who compared them deliberately chose an indoor shot, outdoor dragon age is way less distinct, meanwhile DA2 is more distinct outdoors or not.

EDIT: P.S. On page two of this thread, I posted a number of DA:O shots, 6 of them are outdoors. I don't think any of them blend in well with those other games, either. 


Both are mixed bags, which is common enough.

I don't think those who appreciate DA2 and those who don't, always are considering the the same things.
To the player that has made many journeys through DA:O, and formed an attachment to the game, what stands out are the glaring differences, which also to the gamer don't make much sense.

I'd suggest the changes weren't much considered from the gamers' pov, more from the viewpoint of developing and marketing. And not as much in relation to DA:O, or the success of DA:O, as what they now wanted to do with DA.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 06 mai 2012 - 02:23 .

[Joy Divison]

StElmo wrote...

The poster who compared them deliberately chose an indoor shot, outdoor dragon age is way less distinct, meanwhile DA2 is more distinct outdoors or not.

The Wounded Coast is not distict.
Distinct does not mean "good"
You like DA2's art?  When was the last time you fired up a game and did the Escape From Lothering questline?

[whykikyouwhy]

Joy Divison wrote...
The Wounded Coast is not distict.
Distinct does not mean "good"
You like DA2's art?  When was the last time you fired up a game and did the Escape From Lothering questline?

"Distinct" and "good" are both subjective. While you may not have felt that anything within DA2 was distinct and/or good does not negate the fact that someone else may have possibly felt the whole game, or parts of, were both.

[eroeru]

StElmo wrote...

The poster who compared them deliberately chose an indoor shot, outdoor dragon age is way less distinct, meanwhile DA2 is more distinct outdoors or not.

Can you really be sure to make such a claim? Even if you could, it is in bad taste.

Fyi, I did choose one that was nice-looking for me, BUT I did so quickly, and with the first row of results from google images. I didn't think a moment about selecting an indoor shot or whatnot special case to uphold my distinction (I believe it holds with the out-door ones as well).


edit: and that pic you posted doesn't look very similar to other great fantasy games for a reason - I can imagine that few artists have such a jagged and paper(-cut) ideal for a game's image. The characters seem to be as some nasty form of alien lego. Or simply paper-made. I for one did not want a dark fantasy origami, but rather a detailed and elaborate, non-chunky fantasy with a serious yet witty undertone. Some of the downfalls can certainly be categorized as pertaining to art. 

Modifié par eroeru, 07 mai 2012 - 02:05 .

[eroeru]

eroeru wrote...

About cartoony - yes, it's the wrong word. I need to think this one over a bit, but I do have a distinctive idea going on about it.

Actually, it is exactly the right word. Any western action-animation has that art to it - the colors, lately the spiky-geometrical-simplistic lines, all of it (edit: maybe the origami style that prevails in DA2, the hair especially, is in addition). As such, it doesn't hold any value as art. Or just as much as western cartoons (which amounts to the same for me)...

Modifié par eroeru, 07 mai 2012 - 12:22 .

[areuexperienced]

I liked DA2's art style better, DA seemed awfully bland most of the time.

[eroeru]

^^ Interesting that the same thing has been said about Morrowind - and that's an immensely well-done game, artistically.

[Monica83]

areuexperienced wrote...

I liked DA2's art style better, DA seemed awfully bland most of the time.

Not sure if you serious...

DAO had a lot more detail than the huge flat area in DA2 have..

Dragon age 2:

Characters look maded in plastic
Darkspawn are no more scary but clownish
Animation are ridicolus over the top like a bad quality japanese game
Elves are pink na'vi whitout tail
Areas are huge but empty not detail at all
The magic is becomed... Ho look i am cool with staff i can twist it in air whitout any sense of battle but i can make shiny and colorfull explosion
Exploding bodyes.... even hit with normal arrows... Wow... Dat bow shots rockets!
I am a rougue i can teleport and stab your back -Naruto style-

And there are people that still defend the dragon age 2 art style? please...

Skyrim have artstyle
The witcher 2 have artstyle
Dragon age origins have artstyle...
Deus hex human revolution have artstyle..
Baldur's gate
Icewind dale
Planescape torment
Morrowind have sttle

Dragon age 2 just looks ridicolus it pretends to be cool looking but ends in a huge fail in this..

[Eternal Phoenix]

Dragon Age 2 concept art:

 
Dark, realistic, destinctive.

Game version:

  

Bland, uninspiring and lacking detail.

Concept Art:

 
Detailed, dark, gritty, realistic, tells a story.

Game version:

 
Bland, boring, too bright, unrealistic. The Gallows would have looked and felt better if the game version looked more like the concept art version. This is a place where mages are imprisoned and it's also meant to be a place that is centuries old and it doesn't even look like a prison let alone a place that is old.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Monica83 wrote...

And there are people that still defend the dragon age 2 art style? please...

Oh no, someone has a different opinion than you!

Please... <_<