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"Yes, you have been insulted." (Thoughts on insulting the audience.)


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#1
Taboo

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 I thought it was time to address fully what we have been presented with and present two points that really rustle my jimmies especially when they are used as a defense from people who believe the endings are great now. You too have had your intelligence insulted.

"Because no one else is doing it it's brilliant."

No. Just no.

I'd like to use an example of this with one of America's favorite odd balls, Andy Warhol. You may know Andy Warhol as a painter and for his eccentric behavior but where I come from he is also known for his films. I'll stop right there and tell you that his films are beyond awful and represent an arrogance so severe they have literally been buried. I digress.

The film I'd like to call your attention to is a little film called Empire. What is Empire about? Empire is about the Empire State building.


"Oh God Why?"
Image IPB

This is the entire film. All four hundred and thirty five minutes of it. In slow motion. Warhol shot the film and 24 frames a second and then asked for it to be projected at 16 frames per second. The running time of Empire when projected as Warhol wished is eight hours and five minutes long.

Believe it or not not I know people who like this and they use the exact same defense that I have seen some Pro-Enders use. Because Warhol does something that no one else does he is genius!. I have read this comment by more than one pro-ender and have been.......bothered by it. One does not breed innovation by deying basic narrative structure and throwing it to the curb. One breeds innovation by staying within the confines of narrative and trying something new. John Cassavetes achieved this when he used hand-held cameras in his films and created both a new sense of realism and American independant film at the same time. John Cassavetes is still loved and respected today for his accomplishments in film.

"But hitchcock said.........."

"We show the audience too much......."

No. This is the most grievous misquote I've ever seen from a filmmaker in my lifetime. hitchcock did not mean that people should be deprived of BASIC narrative elements. He meant something far, far simpler. He wanted certain aspects of the film to be left up to the audience such as violence. In no film is this more blatent than Psycho.

"Did you know the blood in this scene was actually chocolate sauce?"
Image IPB

Pyscho is a violent film but very little violence is actually shown on screen. Wait what?

In the entire course of the shower scene at no point is the knife ever seen actually penetrating Janet Leigh's flesh completely.

All the violence is IMPLIED via the knife moving up and down and blood going down the shower drain.

This is the brilliance of Hit****'s films AND the true meaning of his quote. hitchcock believed that the audience should have to impy the grimmer details of something like a murder. He wanted the audience to IMAGINE what a wounded Janet Leigh would look like after being stabbed by Norman Bates. He did NOT deride the audience by not giving the audience information.

“There is no terror in the bang, only in the anticipation of it.”  - Alfred hitchcock

Aesthetics differences! Aesthetic differences everywhere!

What we have been presented with at the current ending are essentially six aesthetically similar cutscenes with different variables attached. They play like alternate scenes in a film. Yes, the end result is different but what it leads up to is always the same. We are presented with a montage of scenes that do not make sense, something Sergei Eisentein spoke against NINETY years ago.

Scenes in a game about realism should make sense from beginning to end. Any narrative shift is a betrayl of narrative structure and the reaction of the audience should be expected as such.

Deus Ex Machina->Three choices with very little explanation-> Six aesthetically similar cutscenes->A scientifically implausible landing scenario-> A meta message-> Please buy more DLC.

No.

You cannot present the audience with things like this in the last minute and expect a great reaction. To believe as such is incredibly silly and looks poorly upon the creators and the audience. Do the artists have every right to do this? Yes. Does the audience have every right to not like it? Yes.

The problem isn't that Bioware asked you to speculate but that they introduced so many different variables at the last minute and expected the audience to achieve catharsis over past events AND achieve intellectual clarity via the schizoid editing in the end. You cannot expect an audience to do both at the same time and achieve success with a more hardcore fanbase.

There is nothing wrong with leaving the audience with question but their IS a problem with leaving the audience with no data to extrapolate from. You insult their intelligence.

#2
Yorkston9152

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Taboo-XX wrote...

“There is no terror in the bang, only in the anticipation of it.”  - Alfred hitchcock



Scariest moment of a movie i think is in Rear view by hitchcok. Watching the main character defend him self with a camera flash while the villian slowly moves forward with a knife......chilling

but agreed with your post OP. Speculation is only good when done right. Throwing your idea fo how your story goes and then telling the people watching it they have to think for them selves? not so much

#3
The Angry One

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Yeah that quote misuse by someone (you know who you are) has always bothered me.

If hitchcock meant it as it applies to Mass Effect 3, then in Psycho we'd see Norman Bates approaching his victim, the scene changing with no other input - not even a scream - and the victim never being seen again.
Yes, we can speculate till dawn about what happened. Maybe she got killed! Maybe they just had a nice chat and she left for China the next day. Oh except that's bad storytelling and everybody would deride it as cheap and lazy.

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 mai 2012 - 03:58 .


#4
legion999

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Well said OP. I'm fine filling in the gaps when I've been presented with the information to do so. I'm not fine doing the writer's job for them and imagining scenarios to fill in the gaps they've left.

PS For some reason hitchcock's name has been censored.

#5
ShepnTali

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Oh goodness, please o please don't drag hitchcock's good name into this mess.


Has there ever been a successful story leaving you with questions such as what happened to who where, and how?

Modifié par ShepnTali, 02 mai 2012 - 04:07 .


#6
jeweledleah

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incidentally with that Psycho example.

they did have a scene in ME3 that worked wonderfully for that.

Rilla's death. you don't see her die. but you know that banshie stabbed her, because you see the blood falling and Rilla gasps. you know that the bomb is about to go off, because you see Rilla press the detonator before dropping it. but you don't see the explosion. you feel it in the elevator that's going up, with Shepard and Fallere inside it. you know exactly what happened. and watching reactions of all the participants to it is tons more powerful then watching the actual gory details.

or, hell Virmire death. especially if whoever you are leaving behind - is left at the bomb.

bioware knows how to do this stuff. they just... for some reason don't always manage

#7
The Angry One

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ShepnTali wrote...

Oh goodness, please o please don't drag hitchcock's good name into this mess.


To be fair, he didn't. He's just responding to someone else who has, by misinterpreting what he once said.

Has there ever been a successful story leaving you with questions such as what happened to who where, and how?


You can have elements to this, which can affect the narrative in retrospect but are ultimately secondary to the story, such as "Is Deckard a replicant"?.
But leaving everything up in the air for lots of speculation from everyone? Hell no.

#8
darkchief10

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I feel that at a very basic theme mass effect 3 completely abandoned the Socratic method of storytelling in the end by completely throwing the people off kilter. The reason why this method of storytelling has endured millennium is the simple fact that most other methods are not as effective and tend to viewed very negatively. I would compare mass effect to a finely tuned game of football, except at the final quarter they start hurling bowling balls at the players. They will not be happy. good post overall op. idk if i make any sense since i've been up since 4 am but oh well.

#9
Kunari801

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I knew it!    Ok, sarcasm off. 


jeweledleah wrote...

incidentally with that Psycho example.

they did have a scene in ME3 that worked wonderfully for that.

Rilla's death. you don't see her die. but you know that banshie stabbed her, because you see the blood falling and Rilla gasps. you know that the bomb is about to go off, because you see Rilla press the detonator before dropping it. but you don't see the explosion. you feel it in the elevator that's going up, with Shepard and Fallere inside it. you know exactly what happened. and watching reactions of all the participants to it is tons more powerful then watching the actual gory details.

or, hell Virmire death. especially if whoever you are leaving behind - is left at the bomb.

bioware knows how to do this stuff. they just... for some reason don't always manage

 


Agreed, and it was a wonderful scene and got the mood perfect.  You "know" what happened but you didn't need to see it, you saw it in the reactions of the on-screen characters their emotions came out of the screen.  

Modifié par Kunari801, 02 mai 2012 - 04:23 .


#10
Taboo

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If the Pro-enders wish to use such arguments they will critiqued as such.

I'm always up for debate but never seem to partake in any of the threads I create.

Will they do it now?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 02 mai 2012 - 04:15 .


#11
MtOMajorCat0311

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Well done OP, very clever and insightful use of examples to make your point.

#12
Taboo

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Please don't go watch Andy Warhol films......whatever you do.

#13
Qutayba

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When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.

#14
The Angry One

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Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


The problem is they should regonise that the ending failed in this regard and work from there.
The fact that they don't, and *still* throw out phrases like artistic integrity and artistic vision is what gives people this impression.

Then of course the sheer arrogance expressed by certain people here, who claim "we don't get it" and that "BioWare should not be brought down to our level" doesn't help either. It's not BioWare, sure. But the fact remains BioWare is appealing to this type of hubris whether they want to or not.

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 mai 2012 - 04:22 .


#15
Taboo

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Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


The point is critiquing a point the pro-enders have made.

It has nothing to do with the avant-garde.

It's a poor excuse to like something.

#16
darkchief10

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The Angry One wrote...

Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


The problem is they should regonise that the ending failed in this regard and work from there.
The fact that they don't, and *still* throw out phrases like artistic integrity and artistic vision is what gives people this impression.

not to mention the your opinion doesn't matter since you don't know how it's like line

#17
Taboo

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darkchief10 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


The problem is they should regonise that the ending failed in this regard and work from there.
The fact that they don't, and *still* throw out phrases like artistic integrity and artistic vision is what gives people this impression.

not to mention the your opinion doesn't matter since you don't know how it's like line


I know damn good and well what it's like. I take great offense at such nonesense. What do I want the audience to think about here?

That's MY JOB.

#18
delta_vee

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Please don't go watch Andy Warhol films......whatever you do.


Heh. A good friend of mine actually likes Warhol's films, especially Empire.

He's about as pomo as it gets. I mock him for it regularly.

#19
CmnDwnWrkn

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I disagree with the Empire example. That film was made with a certain postmodernist perspective. You might disagree with its merits, but there was an artistic vision behind it. It wasn't just something haphazardly thrown together for no reason.

That said, I cannot watch more than a minute of it without walking away, LOL.

#20
Taboo

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delta_vee wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Please don't go watch Andy Warhol films......whatever you do.


Heh. A good friend of mine actually likes Warhol's films, especially Empire.

He's about as pomo as it gets. I mock him for it regularly.


I'm so sorry.

:sick:

#21
Yorkston9152

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Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


Its insulting me thinks because its on par with handing a person a really easy puzzle and acting amazed/saying omfg great job! when you finish it

ME3 = BW acting like what they handed you was gold and acting all confused on why you dont like it

#22
darkchief10

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Taboo-XX wrote...

darkchief10 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


The problem is they should regonise that the ending failed in this regard and work from there.
The fact that they don't, and *still* throw out phrases like artistic integrity and artistic vision is what gives people this impression.

not to mention the your opinion doesn't matter since you don't know how it's like line


I know damn good and well what it's like. I take great offense at such nonesense. What do I want the audience to think about here?

That's MY JOB.


and even if you didn't you should still be offended because they are basically saying shut the **** up we know better than you now go blindly buy our ****

#23
Taboo

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I disagree with the Empire example. That film was made with a certain postmodernist perspective. You might disagree with its merits, but there was an artistic vision behind it. It wasn't just something haphazardly thrown together for no reason.

That said, I cannot watch more than a minute of it without walking away, LOL.


The point is the defense the pro-enders use.

It has nothing to do with Warhol.

Oh and postmodernism.........

That..........that's another story.

#24
justlogme

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  Well put OP!

#25
Kunari801

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Qutayba wrote...

When BioWare is talking about artistic integrity, they're not saying they want to be avant-garde. They wanted the ending to enigmatic, but not opaque. It should still have enough information for the player.

They failed on many levels, and it was a blunder. I don't think there was any intention to be insulting on their part. That doesn't mean you can't be insulted by the fact that they didn't think about it as carefully and critically as other parts of the game show they are capable of doing. But I really don't think they were trying to pull an Andy Warhol.


I too would think like you but BW has had opportunity to say they didn't intend to insult their playerbase, but did they?