288 réponses à ce sujet

[Kunari801]

frylock23 wrote...

It's like they chickened out on the idea that sometimes evil can just be evil and we don't necessarily have to know why it's evil. So, they dropped in the Catalyst and tried to explain why the evil is evil and give it justifiable motivations. That sort of ruined it for me. I was happier when the evil was just evil.

Agreed, the Reapers needed no "justification" for what they did, it was just evil to us.   Like someone else said, they harvisted to reproduce that was enough.  

[eddieoctane]

nitefyre410 wrote...

I actually laughed  while it said " you cannot compherend." I was thinking "YEah the said I could not kill you but  you number 3 on my tally.." 

4th notch on my belt. Sovereign doesn;t just drop its shields when you take down the Saren husk its controlling, the big squid goes limp. The fleet may have shattered its body, but Shepard broke Sovereigns mind and effectively ended the fight.

Still, I enjoyed KO'ing Cthulhu on a regular basis.

[StElmo]

Win!

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Taboo-XX wrote...

This is the brilliance of Hit****'s films AND the true meaning of his quote. hitchcock believed that the audience should have to impy the grimmer details of something like a murder. He wanted the audience to IMAGINE what a wounded Janet Leigh would look like after being stabbed by Norman Bates. He did NOT deride the audience by not giving the audience information.

This reminds me of Cabin in the Woods.  Without giving anything away, the film's big reveal at the end comes as no surprise because they've been establishing it from literally before the title shot.  There's no cheap M. Night Shyamalan twist ending, just a steady IV feed of a narrative from beginning to end.  It didn't dumb the movie down, it didn't insult the audience's intelligence and the movie was better off for it.

[Taboo]

 Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn:

This translates to:

"In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."

This quote is referenced EXPLICITLY in the Reaper IFF mission in ME2 when a Cerberus employee says that even "dead gods can dream". And that a God is a FORCE not a bearded man in the sky. A forced BEYOND our comprehension.

Looking at Cthulhu can make a person go mad in the narrative. Simply KNOWING about their presence can make someone go insane or kill themselves

And this is the dark lord himself. Look at his face.

http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86e32a6970b-pi

[Klijpope]

Aquilas wrote...
When Hudson says BioWare worked hard to give us their best, he's telling the truth. I'm sure his team did their best, right up until the end. Hudson's best, however, is hamfisted. Simply put, his best isn't very good. He knows it, and Walters knows his best is inadequate too. Their silence over the last two months speaks volumes.

This kind of stuff just makes me laugh, though. If Hudson and Walters just don't know their stuff then how come there is a general consensus that 2.95 of the games are great or even brilliant.

One **** up does not erase a body of work. It appalls me that some people can use the ending as an excuse to trash the entire working life of two people all while pretending to love the franchise they supposedly ruined from the start. If they're not very good, then you can't think the ME series is very good, so why the hell are you complaining about the ending to a game you didn't like anyway? 

And no I'm not trying to crawl up their butts, but the this logical fallacy offends me.

And their silence is very wise indeed. You cannot have a conversation with a mob armed with pitchforks. They're better off completing the EC - that's the proper response.

Since we're using the film industry as a comparison (always imperfect, but useful nonetheless), it's pretty much a minor miracle any film actually gets finished. The levels of bespoke organisation, scheduling, logistics, let alone any potential diva antics of the talent and even the production staff are insane. Totally mind bending. 

And that's a (usually) linear story. Interactive fiction, even in the limited semi-illusory way ME does it, is orders of magnitude more complicated.

Hardly anyone has ever tried to do interactive fiction. Really it is only BioWare, Obsidian, Quantic Dreams and CDPRojektRed that have a passion in this area (there are probably a few more out there too). No one has ever before tried to migrate a game story state through three iterations. This is new ground, an experimental artform. Mistakes were inevitable, and the ending the hardest possible thing to pull off. Given the general state of even linear game narratives, that BW even came close to pulling it off is something worth applauding (whilst still giving the endings the criticism they do deserve).

Yes, the end was hamfisted. Less so than several other recent games (L.A. Noire springs to mind, and Heavy Rain's twist disappointed me more than this). Even Half Life, considered the pinnacle of cohesive game design, ends on cliffhangers, a cop out. The only game I can think of right now that has tried to do something different with it's ending, and pulled it off, was Red Dead Redemption. That nailed it, quite literally, with its last gunshot.

Thing is, we can critique the ending without stooping to personal abuse. There's tonnes of fair criticsm going around; there's ten times more unfair stuff going about. 

And the ending of ME3 can never be as insulting as I felt when hearing Nimoy say "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" so utterly pointlessly in Transformers 3. That had me screaming obscenities at the screen for 20 minutes, and no one else in the cinema heard a thing cuz that mess was so firken loud! 

Thing is ME3 is not "The Room", and Hudson & Walters are not Tommy Wisseau. Some of the hyperbole on these boards seeks to claim otherwise.

PS, OP: where does this 60,000 figure come from? I've missed any concrete figures like this apart from the 9000 or so that have done the polls (though I've been able to vote 3 times on most of them here).

Modifié par Klijpope, 03 mai 2012 - 06:25 .

[Taboo]

Klijpope wrote...
One **** up does not erase a body of work. It appalls me that some people can use the ending as an excuse to trash the entire working life of two people all while pretending to love the franchise they supposedly ruined from the start. If they're not very good, then you can't think the ME series is very good, so why the hell are you complaining about the ending to a game you didn't like anyway? 

No, it happens. It's the psychological damage is what is the problem.

Yes the ending is hamfisted but it certainly makes every other fault more visible.

The body of work is still there albeit with a blemish.

[savionen]

@Klijpope

You can say that the ending doesn't destroy the rest of the trilogy all you want. I had 6 ME1 playthroughs, 7 ME2 playthroughs and I have one ME3 playthrough, and that's probably all it will ever be unless they create an expansion.

It's hard to take the rest of the story seriously when the ending is so poor. The ending actively destroys many previous story elements. ME1 is fundamentally pointless because of ME3. Are ME1 and ME2 great games still? Yes, but it's difficult to enjoy them knowing what is waiting at the end.

[ahandsomeshark]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Klijpope wrote...
One **** up does not erase a body of work. It appalls me that some people can use the ending as an excuse to trash the entire working life of two people all while pretending to love the franchise they supposedly ruined from the start. If they're not very good, then you can't think the ME series is very good, so why the hell are you complaining about the ending to a game you didn't like anyway? 

No, it happens. It's the psychological damage is what is the problem.

Yes the ending is hamfisted but it certainly makes every other fault more visible.

The body of work is still there albeit with a blemish.

Also Walters wasn't the original mass effect writer. I don't think he was the head writer until this game (or he might have been on ME2 but definitely not ME1). In fact I think the writing team as a whole changed every game except for like 2 people, so it's not the same people who wrote the rest of the franchise.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 03 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Klijpope wrote...

Aquilas wrote...
When Hudson says BioWare worked hard to give us their best, he's telling the truth. I'm sure his team did their best, right up until the end. Hudson's best, however, is hamfisted. Simply put, his best isn't very good. He knows it, and Walters knows his best is inadequate too. Their silence over the last two months speaks volumes.

This kind of stuff just makes me laugh, though. If Hudson and Walters just don't know their stuff then how come there is a general consensus that 2.95 of the games are great or even brilliant.

One **** up does not erase a body of work. It appalls me that some people can use the ending as an excuse to trash the entire working life of two people all while pretending to love the franchise they supposedly ruined from the start. If they're not very good, then you can't think the ME series is very good, so why the hell are you complaining about the ending to a game you didn't like anyway? 

And no I'm not trying to crawl up their butts, but the this logical fallacy offends me.

Also Walters wasn't the original mass effect writer. I don't think he was the head writer until this game (or he might have been on ME2 but definitely not ME1). In fact I think the writing team as a whole changed every game except for like 2 people, so it's not the same people who wrote the rest of the franchise.

So it's only a logical fallacy if you're saying that:

Guy A writes a story while working for company A= the story is well written

Guy B comes in continues the story while working for company A= the story is not well written

is impossible logically...which obviously it isn't because tons of examples of it exist through out media history.

[nitefyre410]

eddieoctane wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

I actually laughed  while it said " you cannot compherend." I was thinking "YEah the said I could not kill you but  you number 3 on my tally.." 

4th notch on my belt. Sovereign doesn;t just drop its shields when you take down the Saren husk its controlling, the big squid goes limp. The fleet may have shattered its body, but Shepard broke Sovereigns mind and effectively ended the fight.

Still, I enjoyed KO'ing Cthulhu on a regular basis.

 

Funny - I  believe I actually have deleted everything after the Cerberus from my mind as it never happend. Because I totally forget about the Destoryer on Earth.   

Shepard as pissed Cthulhu off so much that he conned him on taking a form thats makes him easier to kill...  LAWLS... 

Shepard not only  Punched Cthulhu but Scammed him too. 

[Klijpope]

savionen wrote...

@Klijpope

You can say that the ending doesn't destroy the rest of the trilogy all you want. I had 6 ME1 playthroughs, 7 ME2 playthroughs and I have one ME3 playthrough, and that's probably all it will ever be unless they create an expansion.

It's hard to take the rest of the story seriously when the ending is so poor. The ending actively destroys many previous story elements. ME1 is fundamentally pointless because of ME3. Are ME1 and ME2 great games still? Yes, but it's difficult to enjoy them knowing what is waiting at the end.

Did ME1 entertain you? If it did, how can it be pointless? That was the point. To entertain.

Most games only get between 25-50% of players actually completing it. Those that do usually play through them only once. That you played through the first 2 games half a dozen times each tells me you think rather highly of them (btw, how many other games have you played through that many times?). I myself have a similar tally (and 2 for ME3 so far). The only other game I've played through that many times is N64 GoldenEye, and perhaps Perfect Dark. We're not alone by any means in our number of playthroughs. There's no hard data, but would I be wildly ridiculous to suggest that the ME franchise may be one of the most played franchises by its players (if you see what I mean?).

Does that suggest a total write off to you?

A blemish is a better term, Taboo-xx, I think, thank you. A frustrating one, to be sure. But, on the flip side, it has really shown how passionate the fanbase is, which shows how successful the franchise as a whole really was.

The lesson of this story is not this is total sh*te no one should ever try this again, but they were really on to something, but if you're going to do this you'd better make sure you've totally nailed your ending.

Modifié par Klijpope, 03 mai 2012 - 06:59 .

[Klijpope]

ahandsomeshark wrote...
So it's only a logical fallacy if you're saying that:

Nice try. I also mentioned Casey Hudson, who was project director from the very beginning, and who is getting at least half of the vitriol.

[Taboo]

It isn't a total write off. It IS a blemish.

Where I come from the director is the one who gets attacked first though.

Hudson oversaw production and the ending went sour on his watch.

Without thinking people go for the most vulnerable target.

[Kunari801]

Klijpope wrote...

... Hardly anyone has ever tried to do interactive fiction. Really it is only BioWare, Obsidian, Quantic Dreams and CDPRojektRed that have a passion in this area (there are probably a few more out there too). No one has ever before tried to migrate a game story state through three iterations. This is new ground, an experimental artform. Mistakes were inevitable, and the ending the hardest possible thing to pull off. Given the general state of even linear game narratives, that BW even came close to pulling it off is something worth applauding (whilst still giving the endings the criticism they do
deserve)...  

I agree that Mass Effect is (hopefully) a vanguard in a new form of RPG-interactive-movie.  I want more worlds like Mass Effect to play in, to explore, and to have a heros journey.  Hell, I want more Mass Effect too!  It's a world I enjoyed to play in and explore and I'd hate to see it end now.  I want to play a new protagonist and build a team of companions to go take on the antagonist all in a fun, player driven, interactive game.  

It would hurt to see ME turned into another COD. 

It would hurt to see ME turned into a theme-park MMO.

It hurt to see this incident scare away BW, and other developers, from creating more games like Mass
Effect. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 03 mai 2012 - 07:04 .

[eddieoctane]

Klijpope wrote...

One **** up does not erase a body of work. It appalls me that some people can use the ending as an excuse to trash the entire working life of two people all while pretending to love the franchise they supposedly ruined from the start. If they're not very good, then you can't think the ME series is very good, so why the hell are you complaining about the ending to a game you didn't like anyway? 

One screw up can negate a lifetime of good works. People remember the bad far more than the good. That's the nature of human psychology. If a pizza place was terrible the last time you went and there a a half-dozen others with the same price, same distance, and a better quality than the last pizza you ate, you'll be hard pressed to give the screw-up shop another chance. It's just how people act. And good experiences usually result in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude. It's a facet of human behavior. Ask any psych major and you'll find them in agreeance with me on this.

[Taboo]

eddieoctane wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

One **** up does not erase a body of work. It appalls me that some people can use the ending as an excuse to trash the entire working life of two people all while pretending to love the franchise they supposedly ruined from the start. If they're not very good, then you can't think the ME series is very good, so why the hell are you complaining about the ending to a game you didn't like anyway? 

One screw up can negate a lifetime of good works. People remember the bad far more than the good. That's the nature of human psychology. If a pizza place was terrible the last time you went and there a a half-dozen others with the same price, same distance, and a better quality than the last pizza you ate, you'll be hard pressed to give the screw-up shop another chance. It's just how people act. And good experiences usually result in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude. It's a facet of human behavior. Ask any psych major and you'll find them in agreeance with me on this.

I have education in the field and yes it CAN ruin things for people. I liken it to a blemish though because the first two games are still great. The human mind simply believes that one bad experience ruins all of them.

It's a fallacy.

[ahandsomeshark]

Klijpope wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...
So it's only a logical fallacy if you're saying that:

Nice try. I also mentioned Casey Hudson, who was project director from the very beginning, and who is getting at least half of the vitriol.

Oh I think most of the vitrol toward Hudson is stupid. My issue is entirely with the writing. Though I will say a lot of Hudsons quotes about the game make no sense when compared to his quotes around ME1, so I still think a serious disconnect could be assumed.

[Klijpope]

So true sir. I just have a tendency for firefighting when it comes to the rhetoric, but tis probably a vain task.

Project director has to take responsibility. In this case, he was directly responsible. But it is not a fall-on-your-sword moment. The internets seem to think there are no second chances, however.

This whole episode though is not only about a bad ending. It's also about the way social media and a critical mass of online participants has really disrupted the old patterns, on both sides of the producer/fan divide. I think folk are starting to realise that this virtual space thingy is totally new territory, and it is scary how easy it is to make a mistake, and no one has a map.

[ahandsomeshark]

Also I don't really see the ME3 as a vanguard in terms of interactive fiction. My issue with ME3 is that it felt way less interactive and more cinematic than the previous games. I would say it's an example of how not to do interactive fiction. I don't think the hybrid they were going for worked at all.

[CrutchCricket]

Klijpope wrote...
This kind of stuff just makes me laugh, though. If Hudson and Walters just don't know their stuff then how come there is a general consensus that 2.95 of the games are great or even brilliant.

Those two were not singlehandedly responsible for those 2.95 games. There was a whole team of dedicated and talented people working to make them as awesome as they are and they all deserve credit.

The bull**** RGB ending however was just the two of them and they ****ed it up almost beyond repair. So the blame (and subsequent fandom rage) is all on their heads. Bioware as a whole get it too, but only because they as a whole refuse to fix it, or perhaps are not allowed to (and let's not start the settlement style EC arguments again).

[savionen]

Klijpope wrote...

So true sir. I just have a tendency for firefighting when it comes to the rhetoric, but tis probably a vain task.

Project director has to take responsibility. In this case, he was directly responsible. But it is not a fall-on-your-sword moment. The internets seem to think there are no second chances, however.

This whole episode though is not only about a bad ending. It's also about the way social media and a critical mass of online participants has really disrupted the old patterns, on both sides of the producer/fan divide. I think folk are starting to realise that this virtual space thingy is totally new territory, and it is scary how easy it is to make a mistake, and no one has a map.

The overall reaction is definitely due to mutliple aspects. Many people hating the ending, critics ignoring it, Bioware being condescending about it and saying "use your imagination", etc. The cries currently go ignored instead of being explained, making them linger.

I personally at least, find it difficult to enjoy ME1 and ME2 again, even though the original experiences were great. Knowing what happens afterwards makes it feel pointless. It's like watching a great horror movie that has a terrible twist at the end. If you watch it again instead of thinking "Hmmm, how did that happen?" you think "Oh, it was because the alien was actually a dog, this is stupid, how did they not know it was a dog." Mass Effect isn't a horror movie of course, so it's a little different, but the ending felt so out of place and jarring that it has a similar effect.

Modifié par savionen, 03 mai 2012 - 07:22 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Klijpope wrote...

So true sir. I just have a tendency for firefighting when it comes to the rhetoric, but tis probably a vain task.

Project director has to take responsibility. In this case, he was directly responsible. But it is not a fall-on-your-sword moment. The internets seem to think there are no second chances, however.

This whole episode though is not only about a bad ending. It's also about the way social media and a critical mass of online participants has really disrupted the old patterns, on both sides of the producer/fan divide. I think folk are starting to realise that this virtual space thingy is totally new territory, and it is scary how easy it is to make a mistake, and no one has a map.

this is what I've been saying from day one, though less about producer/fan and more producer/consumer. To me the issue is WAY less about the game and story itself and more about the subsequent handling, specifically the way EA reverted to old business tactics in the face of a new business problem (if that makes sense).

To me the entire thing kind of reeks of the upper levels not having any idea how the internet works or how to use it in their favor. I think with BSN they easily had the tools in place to spin this into a positive for them, showing that EA was truly attempting to change, in the wake of poor sales and past criticisms, and be at the forefront of the game industry in evolving. Instead they've seemingly have abandoned it (not literaly but to the point there's basically no communication through it despite it being set up perfectly just for that) and instead it's being used as a weapon against them, which is also kind of hilarious.

[Taboo]

Klijpope wrote...

So true sir. I just have a tendency for firefighting when it comes to the rhetoric, but tis probably a vain task.

Project director has to take responsibility. In this case, he was directly responsible. But it is not a fall-on-your-sword moment. The internets seem to think there are no second chances, however.

This whole episode though is not only about a bad ending. It's also about the way social media and a critical mass of online participants has really disrupted the old patterns, on both sides of the producer/fan divide. I think folk are starting to realise that this virtual space thingy is totally new territory, and it is scary how easy it is to make a mistake, and no one has a map.

It is a fascinating sociological phenomenon. I'll have to dig up my copy of "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds." That book is the greatest collection of the stupidity of human behavior in existence.

It's an uncharted territory.....one that hasn't happened before.

So....interesting.

Pity I was emotionally involved.

[Kunari801]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Also I don't really see the ME3 as a vanguard in terms of interactive fiction. My issue with ME3 is that it felt way less interactive and more cinematic than the previous games. I would say it's an example of how not to do interactive fiction. I don't think the hybrid they were going for worked at all.

No, ME1 was more of the vanguard.  At least it was a new high in the RPG space with the great story, good cinematics, voice over work, and game world.  Sure we look at it now and snicker at the lower poly and lower res textures, but it blew me out of the water.   ME2 similarly did too, sure I missed some of the RPG elements removed but it was still a great game.  ME3 also continued that trend right until the star-brat.  

I really think they tried to do TOO much in ME3 and wish they had decided to make it into two-parts.  I certainly would no thave minded if they announced that they were going to pull a "Deathly Hallows" and make ME3 into two games.   Could have ended as a cliffhanger at the Geth/Quarian war.   Published a DLC or two then March 2013 launched ME4 to complete the war.