288 réponses à ce sujet

[ZtalkerRM]

@ OP:

I fully agree with everything you say. Bioware made a big mistake by taking this course.
For example, many people who I've spoken too would've been fine with ME3 ending after Anderson dies. It won't clear anything up either, but at least it doesn't break narrative and leaves us speculating in a GOOD way. Memento is quite a good example.

I also find it deeply disturbing that they think their audience doesn't recognise a rush job. Many thread have pointed out many parts (including the ending) were rushed, which is quite obvious by looking at the giant plot holes, bad textures (even sprites!) and not 'connected' ending, amongst others.

It's like watching Apacalypse Now for 3 hours, after which it cuts to the ending of the Spongebob movie, with the pirate-actor calling his parrot. It doesn't fit. Not that either is bad, but together, it is.

The fact that someone like you can pinpoint a problem like this (many have gone before you, by the way, with different problems) is proof of this. Again, good post.

[tobiasks]

Great post OP! Very insightful!

[GreyLycanTrope]

Kudos

[CrutchCricket]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Hmmm.

In four or five months all people will really want is closure. Having a more palatable ending for Shepard will do that for quite few people.

Emotion > Logic

Always.

And it pisses me off that they're taking advantage of it. The brilliance of the EC announcement strategy is obvious. Divide and conquer.

I hope that some people will still see through it though. The underlined is true but it would've worked best initially. If people "felt good" after the ending they'd be less likely to question it. But we didn't feel good and we did see all the ****-ups. We've had nearly two months to pick them apart. Surely that won't all just be forgotten?

[Taboo]

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

[Mylia Stenetch]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

I think once they came out and said that they are making free ending DLC, they saw there errors and are working on correcting it. 

[The Angry One]

ZtalkerRM wrote...

It's like watching Apacalypse Now for 3 hours, after which it cuts to the ending of the Spongebob movie, with the pirate-actor calling his parrot. It doesn't fit. Not that either is bad, but together, it is..

Because it must be said...

Still a better ending than Mass Effect 3's.

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

I think once they came out and said that they are making free ending DLC, they saw there errors and are working on correcting it. 

My word! We have here proof, proof I say of a post from a person existing in an alternate universe.
This phenomenon must be recorded, for science!

Tell me, alternate universe person. Is JFK still alive in your world? Are traffic lights red for go instead of green? I must know before we lose contact!

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 mai 2012 - 05:02 .

[Taboo]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

I think once they came out and said that they are making free ending DLC, they saw there errors and are working on correcting it. 

A fair point.

Something that Mr. Priestly said in a tweet really struck me. He said that in no way shape or form did they not care. To work on something for years only to have it attacked really hurts people.

I know how it feels. Bioware however, has been given a second chance. Most filmmakers do not get that chance.

[incinerator950]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

I think once they came out and said that they are making free ending DLC, they saw there errors and are working on correcting it. 

A fair point.

Something that Mr. Priestly said in a tweet really struck me. He said that in no way shape or form did they not care. To work on something for years only to have it attacked really hurts people.

I know how it feels. Bioware however, has been given a second chance. Most filmmakers do not get that chance.

Video games are indeed different then Movies or books.  Also, unlike Doyle, the staff hasn't been receiving Death Threats, otherwise the majority of us would have probably been banned.

[Taboo]

incinerator950 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

I think once they came out and said that they are making free ending DLC, they saw there errors and are working on correcting it. 

A fair point.

Something that Mr. Priestly said in a tweet really struck me. He said that in no way shape or form did they not care. To work on something for years only to have it attacked really hurts people.

I know how it feels. Bioware however, has been given a second chance. Most filmmakers do not get that chance.

Video games are indeed different then Movies or books.  Also, unlike Doyle, the staff hasn't been receiving Death Threats, otherwise the majority of us would have probably been banned.

I don't think that's true actually.

The thought that someone would actually want to cause physical harm.....

[humes spork]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That's not true. They are "changing" the endings without changing the endings. They are reworking things like the Catalyst in an attempt to make it more palatable. 

Gamble has addressed this and everyone knows that the little ****s problem is that he doesn't say much.

Precisely this. People aren't satisfied that BW and EA aren't on their hands and knees begging forgiveness from the fans. That's not going to happen. Hell, put it through the diplo-speak filter and to be quite frank, what we've gotten is more or less precisely that.

Which, the interesting thing with the hitchcock comparison in this thread in the context of Taboo's previous thread on the grotesque, is that ME3 is a game in which the grotesque shouldn't (at least, in my opinion) be denied the player or left to imagination. After two and four-fifths of a game which only hint at the true horrors inflicted by the Reapers, continually tantalizing the audience and foreshadowing, and leaving the nature of those horrors largely left to imagination but for a couple sanitized cutscenes, that at the very least should be unveiled to the audience in full "glory" at the last.

And honestly, I'd add that if you want to talk of excellence in minimalist filmmaking, I'd also point to Kurosawa. Especially when it comes to audio, but I digress. I've mentioned Kubrick a time or two before in Taboo's threads, so I'll skip him for the moment.

[The Angry One]

incinerator950 wrote...

Video games are indeed different then Movies or books.  Also, unlike Doyle, the staff hasn't been receiving Death Threats, otherwise the majority of us would have probably been banned.

While making Star Trek II, director Nick Meyer once recieved a letter that said "If Spock dies, you die."
And this was before Trekkies were really a thing.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Thankfully they can remedy the situation.

They could... if they dropped the artistic integrity bull**** and actually acknowledged the problem.

What do you suppose the chances of that are?<_<

I'm quite sure they're aware that they dropped the ball. They just can't admit it openly. The EC will attempt to "change the endings without changing the endings", so we won't get new options and Mr. Casper will stay (not that I have a problem with that, as opposed to you), but apart from that everything's fair game.

At least that's what I'm telling myself.

[Taboo]

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

That's not true. They are "changing" the endings without changing the endings. They are reworking things like the Catalyst in an attempt to make it more palatable. 

Gamble has addressed this and everyone knows that the little ****s problem is that he doesn't say much.

Precisely this. People aren't satisfied that BW and EA aren't on their hands and knees begging forgiveness from the fans. That's not going to happen. Hell, put it through the diplo-speak filter and to be quite frank, what we've gotten is more or less precisely that.

Which, the interesting thing with the hitchcock comparison in this thread in the context of Taboo's previous thread on the grotesque, is that ME3 is a game in which the grotesque shouldn't (at least, in my opinion) be denied the player or left to imagination. After two and four-fifths of a game which only hint at the true horrors inflicted by the Reapers, continually tantalizing the audience and foreshadowing, and leaving the nature of those horrors largely left to imagination but for a couple sanitized cutscenes, that at the very least should be unveiled to the audience in full "glory" at the last.

And honestly, I'd add that if you want to talk of excellence in minimalist filmmaking, I'd also point to Kurosawa. Especially when it comes to audio, but I digress. I've mentioned Kubrick a time or two before in Taboo's threads, so I'll skip him for the moment.

Kurosawa..............is a God.

I've already mentioned him before in threads.

But I can go even further down the hole with minimilism. So much farther.........

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Thankfully they can remedy the situation.

They could... if they dropped the artistic integrity bull**** and actually acknowledged the problem.

What do you suppose the chances of that are?<_<

I'm quite sure they're aware that they dropped the ball. They just can't admit it openly. The EC will attempt to "change the endings without changing the endings", so we won't get new options and Mr. Casper will stay (not that I have a problem with that, as opposed to you), but apart from that everything's fair game.

At least that's what I'm telling myself.

I don't care about Casper.

I care about Shepard and his friends.

The people Bioware forgot.

[EricHVela]

This ties into how I think horror movies are done correctly. Just lead the viewer down a dark corridor of their mind and turn out the lights. Let their own imagination take over. (Alien [the original] did this excellently by never showing you enough of what was supposed to scare you.) Nothing that anyone can show us on the screen can compare with the horrors we can imagine.

However in ME3, we're given a puzzle with many pieces that are missing. We can't solve it enough to enjoy a finished product. It's not entertaining. It's laboring over something that ends only in frustration.

[Peranor]

One cannot avoid....speculating...on how it could end this badly.

Was it EA that pushed BioWare to hard?
Is there any truth to the rumours about Mac and Casey creating the ending themself without any kind of proof-reading?
And in that case, would EA really let hubris jeopardize the game's quality?
Or did they honestly think that they created a fitting ending for the series? (The thought of that being the case scares me...)
And the final question is. When they said "we didn't know there was a huge demand for it". What where they smoking at the time?

[incinerator950]

The Angry One wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Video games are indeed different then Movies or books.  Also, unlike Doyle, the staff hasn't been receiving Death Threats, otherwise the majority of us would have probably been banned.

While making Star Trek II, director Nick Meyer once recieved a letter that said "If Spock dies, you die."
And this was before Trekkies were really a thing.

Yeah

[Taboo]

anorling wrote...


One cannot avoid....speculating...on how it could end this badly.

Was it EA that pushed BioWare to hard?
Is there any truth to the rumours about Mac and Casey creating the ending themself without any kind of proof-reading?
And in that case, would EA really let hubris jeopardize the game's quality?
Or did they honestly think that they created a fitting ending for the series? (The thought of that being the case scares me...)
And the final question is. When they said "we didn't know there was a huge demand for it". What where they smoking at the time?

The more I think about it the more I think it was rushed.

The cracks really show when you look. Sheen didn't record his lines until November when it was supposed to come out originally.

EA wanted it out before it was ready.

Bad idea.

[Peranor]

Taboo-XX wrote...



I don't care about Casper.

I care about Shepard and his friends.

The people Bioware forgot.

^This!

[Mylia Stenetch]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope Bioware knows that we know this is an issue.

It's so blatant.

I think once they came out and said that they are making free ending DLC, they saw there errors and are working on correcting it. 

A fair point.

Something that Mr. Priestly said in a tweet really struck me. He said that in no way shape or form did they not care. To work on something for years only to have it attacked really hurts people.

I know how it feels. Bioware however, has been given a second chance. Most filmmakers do not get that chance.

I will have to read the tweet to see what he was trying to say. Still from working on small scale things (like D&D campaigns and Magic Decks), spending a lot of time on them feel like you are putting a piece of yourself and your soul/personality/etc into it.

So I can understand that people coming after them with pitchforks would hurt their feelings cause of the raw emotion output they put in it. It also falls into the realm of wishing for immortality. You could say this was going to be the Magnum Opus, the final piece that puts them into the realms of "lasting forever", being etched into the history books to be looked at in history as a "game changer" (I remember breifly talking about this years ago with people about the ideals of being the Romantic ((although I am probally using it wrong)). Getting caught up in this moment they failed to see the forest through the trees, and lost their way.

Also it could be rushed, they could of tried a billion other things we do not know since we have no omnipitance in Bioware' office, just the pieces they give us for insight.

[CrutchCricket]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Thankfully they can remedy the situation.

They could... if they dropped the artistic integrity bull**** and actually acknowledged the problem.

What do you suppose the chances of that are?<_<

I'm quite sure they're aware that they dropped the ball. They just can't admit it openly. The EC will attempt to "change the endings without changing the endings", so we won't get new options and Mr. Casper will stay (not that I have a problem with that, as opposed to you), but apart from that everything's fair game.

At least that's what I'm telling myself.

I don't care about Casper.

I care about Shepard and his friends.

The people Bioware forgot.

I don't claim they're ignorant of the problem. I claim they refuse to deal with it, skirting around it instead and adding tinsel to their turd pile.

The holokid isn't the entirety of the problem but it is the center of it (its catalyst if you will). It needs to be purged.

I want the world intact. I care about the characters but that's a secondary concern.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 02 mai 2012 - 05:19 .

[Devil Mingy]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Hmmm.

In four or five months all people will really want is closure. Having a more palatable ending for Shepard will do that for quite few people.

Emotion > Logic

Always.

This is what scares me the most, especially taken with the paraphrased "interview" with Weekes and some of the more recent tweets. It seems like they are going to go out of their way to bring us a happy ending, even if it makes even less sense than what we have now. I suppose that a happy ending with the crew and all would probably temper the rage of many, even if it was pulled right out of their ass. While I would certainly welcome any ray of hope in the bleak pile of crap we're given, months of thinking about this ending has reordered my priorities. I don't care if the ending is happy or sad (I'd prefer there'd be a few endings that could go either way, but additional endings are off the table), I just want an ending that doesn't make my brain hurt and takes into account that there is more to the Mass Effect universe than Shepard and the Reapers. The announcement release has left me confident I'm going to get the latter, but the former is questionable at the moment. 

My hope for the Extended Cut is that they rework several scenes with additional footage or outright replace certain scenes so that this happy ending they seem to be foreshadowing is within the realm of possibility. My fear is that we'll have the same cutscenes with the same context and will then simply be told afterwards that they're not as bad as they look. For example:

*Citadel explodes in red or green light*

Soldier on ground at Earth: Wow. Look at that. Good thing the Citadel has the strongest bunkers in the galaxy. Otherwise, that might've killed somebody.

Soldier 2: It looks like its mass effect fields are still active. Good, at least it won't crashland on Earth. Maybe we can get it repaired after this mess is over.

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 02 mai 2012 - 05:21 .

[incinerator950]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Thankfully they can remedy the situation.

They could... if they dropped the artistic integrity bull**** and actually acknowledged the problem.

What do you suppose the chances of that are?<_<

I'm quite sure they're aware that they dropped the ball. They just can't admit it openly. The EC will attempt to "change the endings without changing the endings", so we won't get new options and Mr. Casper will stay (not that I have a problem with that, as opposed to you), but apart from that everything's fair game.

At least that's what I'm telling myself.

I don't care about Casper.

I care about Shepard and his friends.

The people Bioware forgot.

I'm indifferent, however if you want to put them to go out in a bang, do it.  The whole Gilligan's Moon was a concept on an Eden restart, and probably some god awful way of showing they survived to compensate for Shepard sacrificing themselves for something.  

It would have been better with just the Destroy and Control ending being 40% different and having TIM and Anderson argue the points after interfacing with the Catalyst. 

Hell, the Catalyst should have been a Pony.

[Kunari801]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
When they announced the EC.

Artistic integrity is a shield of saying we ****ed up and don't want to admit it.

They are going to fix it in some capacity and they still can. I think if they had been given four or five more months the endings would have been better.

ALAS.

Except they're not changing, they're clarifying.... so furthering the notion that we, the ****** fans just don't get its brilliance.

They have acknowledged nothing.  

Marketing speak.   They can make the ends so much better with very little additional details without "changing" the endings.   Yes, as much as I hate it, we'll be subjected to star-brat and the RBG.  However, improved RBG endings and an expanded epilogue with our crew & LI can go a long way.   

Reference the epilogue thread in my sig for an example of using the endings as-is and still improving the ending.  That author even made "Control" almost tollerable for me.