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Why the Conventional Victory is NOT Possible (Refusal Ending)


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#76
SaleemRa

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

I think the more disturbing thing about that scene, is that Shepard was standing right there, and the entire Quarian fleet is raining hell on that position....you'd think he/she would have some inclination to, i dunno, find cover (ignoring the gameplay mechanic of that area you can't get out of), or worse, be blasted into smitherines by the power of thousands of giant guns that shoot giant slugs?


Well I think we call all agree that for most part the Quarian Admiralty are a bunch of Bosh'tets :lol:

#77
nitefyre410

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TookYoCookies wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

Crucible is the only way to defeat the reapers because Bioware made it that way. That simple.. Stupid imo. Guerrilla Warfare ftw.


I tried to point that out on the first page.

All that writing........when it could have been dismissed with a simple story-telling device.

Oh well. It's his time.

 

Ahhh, I see...

Well, i guess Denial is followed closely by excuses.. Probably best to get them all out in one post.

   

I'm beinging to wonder  did Bioware write most the council races governments  stupid on purpose just to keep the mystic of the Reapers because lord forbid they run in a group of people that well think....  It what happened with TIM...that bastard used his head... Bioware stepped in  made it so he was indoctrinated...    

Honestly I  was expecting a combination of the both.  Some new technologies and a ancient  reaper off button all  set up by the Protheans from beyond the grave.  Which involved the   Crucible,  multiple archives on  the different homesworlds  to find pieces for it...  

What we get a is a moronic Council that thought the Gaint  Robotic Cuttlefish of Galactic  Doom dry humping their irovy tower was  Geth ploy.     
 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 03 mai 2012 - 11:25 .


#78
TookYoCookies

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SaleemRa wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

@SaleemRa - oh yea your right, cause theres only 1 way to fight a war guerrilla style.. Adapt - evolve- survie, applies to every conflict... The only thing that can stop it is... plot armored wonder weapons 
:(


Matter of fact that the Protheans tried it and failed miserably, at most it only delayed their extinction by a few centuries and suffered from the exact problems I mentioned.

They:
  • Suffered betrayal from within due to indoctrination
  • Had to fight their own indoctrinated forces
  • Had no where to resupply due to dwindling resources
SunTzu is great and all when it comes to conflicts in the real world, he never faced demonic entities that could brainwash entire population against their will. So unless the allied forces can adapt and evolve to resist indoctrination they are not going to survive.



Lots of differences between the protheans cycle vs reapers, and our(sheps) cycle vs reapers. 
The 1st and most important one (and only 1 im going to mention cause im tired as f*ck) was against the protheans, the Reapers got control of the citadel right away and shut down the relay network, and proceeded to wipe them out system by system, as the protheans were cut off from each other, yet It still took the reapers a couple hundred years to finish the job...

And im starting to think you didnt read any of my posts cause you kind of warp what i said.. I never said guerrila style would win, i was saying it would definitely give you a chance. The only thing to prevent having said chance is to immediately hedge all your bets on some kind of ancient, space, wonder-weapon that we dont even know what it will do when we turn it on! Combining that with your first reaction to the enemy being: "AHHHHH!!! we cant win conventionally!! RUN AWAY!!!!", your certainly dooming yourself to failure... Both of said things occur because of the necessity of the crucible to be included as the main focus of the plot, which is f*cking stupid.

A combination of Cowardice, Incompetence, and Hubris in a commanding position does nothing but lose wars. In ME1 and 2, Sheperd was there to come in and save the day because of said misgivngs of his CO's, ME3 didnt have that, becuase it invented the crucible (which was stupid).


Your right, Sun Tzu never faced "demonic(since when are reapers demonic?) entities that could brain wash entire populations against their will", but if he did... He would adapt his tactics, and evolve a new strategy to fight a new enemy... He certainly wouldnt waste time being a huge P*ssy , B*tching about how "We cant win, Ahhh, QQ" as that does nothing to help the cause...

War is dynamic, to win a war you have to be dynamic, hence why i said: Putting all your chips into 1 wonder weapon was f*cking stupid. As It forces you to be linear, and predictable, something no smart General would ever do..  

..And finally back to my original point: "The crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers because Bioware made it that way, Which is f*cking stupid. Guerrila warfare ftw."

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 03 mai 2012 - 11:29 .


#79
Versidious

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a.m.p wrote...

SaleemRa wrote...

On Rannoch it took a concentrated pin point barrage by the entire Quarian fleet to take down 1 itty bitty destroyer.


It did not take the whole fleet. It took 3-4 Alarei-type ships.

As for assasinating their leaders, there have been lots and lots of speculations, what would happen if we were to blow up starchild, who claims to be the entity that controls them and makes them do what they do.


3-4 Alarei-type ships? Well, firstly, there's more than that even in the screenshot you use. All attacking the weak point using close-range targeting assistance. While it's on the ground and its shields are weakest, and conecntrating on taking out the ground target, instead of shooting back (Which it also still does anyway, as Traynor tells you).

You say 'We don't have effective information as to Reaper galactic numbers'? Well, you're right, neither you nor the OP does. We only have guesses and speculations based on counting in cut scenes and codex information. The Reapers are certainly numerous. Using barely a few million of us, they manage to make a human Reaper which can fight, and function as an amazingly powerful supercomputer. So It's fair to assume that the population of Earth alone would provide them with at least one Sovereign class Reaper. Even a 90% fail-rate over the length of time the Reapers have been harvesting, and assuming that each successful cycle only produces one Sovereign class Reaper, they'd still have about 2000 of the bastards (Let's assume 1800 instead, to account for losses over time), who already one-shot-kill the most powerful ships we have (And just watch where a Destroyer lands on a Dreadnought/Cruiser and tears it apart anyway. A Destroyer - one of the little ones - can **** over a Council warship just like that). However, the characters in-game, who tell us we can't win a conventional war, do.

Yes, those fictional characters actually have the fictional evidence you deem neccesary to back up their fictional claims. So, if your issue is that people who argue with you do not have the information that they need to make those claims solid, then you should just listen to what you are told by the only people who do - which are, as I said, in-game characters, who are also supposedly military experts. Who tell you that a conventional war is not going to end in a victory for us.

In short, the issue is not one of analysing the Codex and saying 'Look! Stuff says that we could win if the things I imagine are true! How dare the people who invented all this stuff I'm using to justify my theories do this, they're just wrong!', but simply of whether Bioware should've written it differently, if a conventional war spearheaded by Shepard might've been more fun. Yes, I think it would, and Bioware should've made that game instead of this one. But saying that the IP owners cannot decide what is or isn't possible within their own universe, or that characters who have access to the actual knowledge that is only theoretical/speculatory to us cannot be trusted, is just ridiculous. Bioware obviously weighed the pros and cons of their plot-arc ideas, and decided that the Ancient Superweapon one was the most promising to allow them to do the plots they wanted to do, and tweaked their IP to make it so.

I would however, like to see a decision to let your fleet fight, and for it to result in a brutal 'Reapers Win' ending cinematic, with a sufficiently high EMS resulting in that smug git Harbinger getting his arse handed to him by, say, the Destiny Ascension and DEFINITELY the Normandy. But ultimately, still losing. And then seeing a cinematic from 50,000 years in the future showing people digging up Liara's time capsules.

Modifié par Versidious, 03 mai 2012 - 11:47 .


#80
Genera1Nemesis

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Most people don't seem to understand exactly what the Crucible is and its intended purpose.

The Crucible was obviously built at the same time as the Citadel, which means it too would be considered 'Reaper' tech. The plans were then scattered to the winds, and the Cycles began. Reapers came every 50 000 years and did their thing, while the dominant races fought back. Eventually plans for the Crucible were discovered. The Reapers obviously knew about these plans but did nothing to destroy them, hmmm, curious.

Every cycle brought the Crucible plans closer and closer to being finished, but they couldn't figure out what the Catalyst was to make it work. Protheans figured it out, but it was too late and they couldn't build the Crucible because they lacked time and resources.

Now think about what needed to happen to first finish the Crucible and activate it with the Catalyst;

1. The Citadel needed to be accessible, something that was impossible before Shepard's cycle because the Citadel was always the first thing lost.

2. Finish building Crucible- Shepard brought the entire galaxy together to get this done, something that had never been accomplished before because previous cycles didn't have the time to prepare.

3. Connecting the pieces- again, this was only possible because there had never been so large a fleet brought against the Reapers in one shot, again thanks to Shepard.

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

#81
Irishfafnir

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 No you don't need 10 pages worth of math to verify the need for the crucible, it is called nuclear weapons they work quite well.

But Shepard doing quests to gather  nuclear launch codes doesn't make for as good of a game 

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 03 mai 2012 - 12:04 .


#82
SaleemRa

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To qoute you from earlier:

TookYoCookies wrote...
Crucible is the only way to defeat the reapers because Bioware made it
that way. That simple.. Stupid imo. Guerrilla Warfare ftw.


TookYoCookies wrote...

And im starting to think you didnt read any of my posts cause you kind of warp what i said.. I never said guerrila style would win, i was saying it would definitely give you a chance. The only thing to prevent having said chance is to immediately hedge all your bets on some kind of ancient, space, wonder-weapon that we dont even know what it will do when we turn it on! Combining that with your first reaction to the enemy being: "AHHHHH!!! we cant win conventionally!! RUN AWAY!!!!", your certainly dooming yourself to failure... Both of said things occur because of the necessity of the crucible to be included as the main focus of the plot, which is f*cking stupid.


In response to the bolded text. Oh yes you did say it would win just look at the above qoute, you did not however say it would give you a chance.

Now as I said earlier, it is implied by Liara at Mars that the protheans developed a reaper killing superweapon. Literally the damned thing came with a post it attached telling whoever found the plans to use it vs the reapers. Look at it from the in game characters POV and not from the omniscient player POV, it took 3 fleets to take out 1 Sovvy class and even then it was only AFTER Shep managed to take down its shields. Hackett literally states he sacrificed an entire fleet in ME 3 to let the other 3 get away. If 4 fleets in arcturus couldnt put a dent in it and the fleet around earth was obliterated in a matter of seconds where you be placing your bets? Guerilla warfare actions which will be doomed to failure in the long run or some unproven magical pony powered super weapon with unimaginable destructive potential that can win you the war based on what an ancient super race told you.

TookYoCookies wrote...
Your right, Sun Tzu never faced "demonic(since when are reapers demonic?) entities that could brain wash entire populations against their will", but if he did... He would adapt his tactics, and evolve a new strategy to fight a new enemy... He certainly wouldnt waste time being a huge P*ssy , B*tching about how "We cant win, Ahhh, QQ" as that does nothing to help the cause...

War is dynamic, to win a war you have to be dynamic, hence why i said: Putting all your chips into 1 wonder weapon was f*cking stupid. As It forces you to be linear, and predictable, something no smart General would ever do..  

..And finally back to my original point: "The crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers because Bioware made it that way, Which is f*cking stupid. Guerrila warfare ftw."


So how would an ancient chinese army fight magical opponents ( remember any civillization advanced enough appears to be magic - Arthur C Clarke) when they can:
  • Brainwash your people?
  • Rain hellfire down from on high?
  • be immune to your weapons?
Remember were talking about "reality" here, so you wont have an ancient alien designed super weapon or some other form of magical intervention. Oh yeah they cant. Its like asking a midevel army to go face to face with a tank battalion.

Oh and just look at your final sentence - you said it again Guerilla warefare can win? Just keep tellin yourself that bud, but I dont think so.

#83
Irishfafnir

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Guerrilla warfare almost never conventionally defeats an opposing force, they usually wage guerrilla warfare to tire the enemy forces out to force a political solution.
Ex- Algeria, Vietnam


In a world where only the complete destruction of the reapers will secure victory, this doesn't seem to likely.

#84
SaleemRa

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.


Dude 1000 internets for you. I feel exactly the same way. The Crucible is a test, a pretty twisted one but a test none the less.

#85
Versidious

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TookYoCookies wrote...
"Guerrila warfare ftw."


Guerilla warfare would not work against the Reapers. The Reapers have superior maneuverability, and are the attacking force. The goal of the organics is to defend their planets. If they do not, then they will go extinct - they lose the ability to reproduce, manufacture, refuel, and repair, and thus replenish their losses. Look at the state of the Migrant fleet, and consider that the Migrant Fleet largely avoids conflict and has the ability to purchase and trade to gain new ships. Now imagine that the Migrant Fleet was actively being hunted by a numerically and technologically superior foe, and had to atttack them - if it gets caught just once, it gets annihilated. The Reapers, therefore, have the greater ability to choose when and where battles actually take place. The Reapers do not have a will to break. They perform their genocidal function, reproduce, and leave.

No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. Vietnam, the Peninsula Wars, Maoist Guerillas, the list goes on. Another key difference, is that in all these cases, a single bullet can kill a Navy Seal or Napoleonic Sharpshooter almost as easily as it can kill a Spanish or Vietnamese peasant. You only need the element of surprise to win against these foes. Against the Reapers, Council navies need to attack in superior numbers, because it takes the firepower of multiple ships to overwhelm their shields. And, if you fail, then the Reaper is faster than you, and can catch you up and obliterate you. It can cut off your ability to use the relays, and laugh at your attempts at surprise attacks. And let's not forget that Reapers *can* track the stealthed Normandy, however fast she is.

Any 'victorious' engagement against the Reapers still leads to losses on our part. Any victory by the Reapers leads to a gain in resources through their harvesting techniques. In short, they have a significant advantage in attrition. They can communicate with each other near instantaneously, run away if we engage them with superior forces, and come back with friends. Guerilla tactics would be next to useless against the Reapers, and would waste military resources better suited to guarding a doomsday device.   :P

#86
gmboy902

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I agree that BioWare kind of set themselves up for a deus ex solution, but the Crucible was just done wrong. I would have preferred something less generic/sudden than a giant space cannon or a burst of light that kills all the Reapers (gee that seems familiar), but something less nihilistic than what we have.

Maybe a device that sends a signal which disables the Reapers' shields. It's explainable - over the course of millions of years, surely some civilizations have managed to learn something about the Reapers' shielding mechanisms. It may be a bit generic, but it would still lead to a satisfying conclusion and we could all forgive the Crucible for being tossed in in the first hours of ME3.

#87
Noelemahc

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The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

Nice idea. Is that why destroying all Reaper (or Reaper-Creator, as it may be) technology is built into the Crucible? I'm afraid to admit that this makes sense, but it does.

#88
Flextt

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Due to encourgement by Noelemahc, I will repost my thoughts on the strength of Allied Thanix weaponry in conventional warfare against Reaper forces:

I haven't seen this brought up by anyone but it just hit me while eating lunch, so bear with me. I am not quick to jump on the "MOAR THANIX!"-bandwagon, but it is so obvious to me how superior they are, I wanted to share this.

Everyone remember ME 2? Good. Anyone remember the very first villain we are presented by the game? The Collector Cruiser, mark the emphasis. The ME universe knows 4 classes of ships, though one of them is never seen in-game and not important to my hypothesis: Frigate, Cruiser, Dreadnought (and Carrier).

- The Destiny Ascension is a dreadnought. They are large vessels with tons of armor and powerful shields. Reaper capital ships fall in this category and their amount is currently why crunching Reaper numbers makes both no fun and shows we are vastly outnumbered.

- The Collector Cruiser is a cruiser. They are somewhere in between. Actually, the Codex seems to suggest they have a somewhat problematic role in the war against Reapers.

Cruisers cannot land on medium or high-gravity worlds, but do possess
the ability to land on low-gravity planets. Cruisers are ideal in any
planetary assault.

So Reapers are best fought when they are in a planet's atmosphere, because they have to significantly lower their mass which in return reduces the stopping power of their armor, but we cannot really fight them on the surface on a planet, because we end up scorching our homes. So as you can see, while cruisers pack a punch and are probably more numerous than dreadnoughts, their role is somewhat problematic.

- The Normandy is a frigate. They usually fight in wolf-packs, are manueverable and make up the bulk of forces. Their role is also problematic, because their firepower is likely too low to inflict serious damage with conventional weaponry against Reaper shielding and armor, but kinetic shielding is susceptible to sustained fire rather than strong, singular bursts. While they are unlikely to damage a capital ship because of a Reaper's GARDIAN systems, they can probably weaken its shields.

Now that sizes are established, I want you all to remember the ME 2 Suicide Mission. The Normandy's Thanix deals minor damage on the frontal side, but the second volley fully penetrates the cruiser's broadside. Since armor is likely thickest at the front due to the kind of warfare we witness during the galatic fleet battle, this isn't a weakness inherent to Thanix. The full penetration is something remarkable. The Normandy is several times smaller than the Collector Cruiser and likely, cruisers in general. The thing that is fighting a Reaper on Earth is actually a cruiser (delivered to you by Cpt. Twitter Retcon) to get a sense of the size of an Alliance cruiser and an Alliance frigate like the Normandy. Yet through superior manueverability it is able to line up a perfect shot in destroy the enemy vessel in a single blow in a 1v1 fight.
That is why I think Thanix are vastly underestimated. Frigates equipped with Thanix could be able to outmanuever Reaper vessels and inflict serious damage, though I am unsure, if GARDIAN systems only affect fighters or also frigates.

Update: The main battery Thanix guns seem to be fairly compact from what we see ingame. It is likely that bigger vessels could support bigger batteries (4 barrels instead of two? longer? heavier metal?)

Update 2: Because the Collectors serve as the Reaper's vanguard force after Sovereign, it is likely their technology is only slightly lower, if not actually on par with current Reaper tech. We know this is the case with the Cruiser, because it's main weapon beam looks like a yellow-colored Reaper Thanix, with their processing technology and their access to huskifying technology. They even go beyond regular husks and further combined them, implying they my have advanced in that field. Hence it is possible, the lesson on Alliance Thanix and the Collector Cruiser can serve as a field study.


http://social.biowar...5285/1#11835666

**** me this forums formatting is atrocious.

Modifié par Flextt, 03 mai 2012 - 12:22 .


#89
EnvyTB075

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gmboy902 wrote...

Maybe a device that sends a signal which disables the Reapers' shields.


I guess that would be explainable if you had already established that the Reapers had their own coding



Oh wait, they do.

#90
incinerator950

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I recall the Salarian Stealth Dreadnoughts in the Salarian 1st Fleet being somewhat able to surprise Reaper forces. However, thats a codex level description that doesn't mean anything as usual in game, so I digress.

#91
Genera1Nemesis

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Noelemahc wrote...

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

Nice idea. Is that why destroying all Reaper (or Reaper-Creator, as it may be) technology is built into the Crucible? I'm afraid to admit that this makes sense, but it does.


That's why I think Catalyst made it a big deal that Shepard was there, 'the first organic to do so' because he passed the test and had proven that organics could make the hard choices about their own future, limited as they were. Plus, Catalyst said that he couldn't make the choice, and defered to Shepard; many people ask why that is but the answer lies in what the Crucible itself represents.

#92
TookYoCookies

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Versidious wrote...

......

In short, the issue is not one of analysing the Codex and saying 'Look! Stuff says that we could win if the things I imagine are true! How dare the people who invented all this stuff I'm using to justify my theories do this, they're just wrong!', but simply of whether Bioware should've written it differently, if a conventional war spearheaded by Shepard might've been more fun. Yes, I think it would, and Bioware should've made that game instead of this one. But saying that the IP owners cannot decide what is or isn't possible within their own universe, or that characters who have access to the actual knowledge that is only theoretical/speculatory to us cannot be trusted, is just ridiculous. Bioware obviously weighed the pros and cons of their plot-arc ideas, and decided that the Ancient Superweapon one was the most promising to allow them to do the plots they wanted to do, and tweaked their IP to make it so.

I would however, like to see a decision to let your fleet fight, and for it to result in a brutal 'Reapers Win' ending cinematic, with a sufficiently high EMS resulting in that smug git Harbinger getting his arse handed to him by, say, the Destiny Ascension and DEFINITELY the Normandy. But ultimately, still losing. And then seeing a cinematic from 50,000 years in the future showing people digging up Liara's time capsules.


Great Post--

I would jump in and say, not only would it have been more Fun, but more practical, believeable (imo.) given the task at hand: Fighting -- Killing Reapers. Sheperd is the only one alive (Turians/Krogan Miracle at Palaven) to have done this, who else would you want to lead you into the fray? 

I always felt that if they were going to make the game(ME3 obv.) as linear as it is currently, they shouldve had Sheperd stay on Earth from the beginning, and fight Guerrila style(see my above posts :P) ftw. and have all the characters that had been with you from the previous games (pending Relations with character: outcomes of previous titles), be on the Normandy,  trying to get all your old squad mates back togeather in order to get back to Earth to help Sheperd. Where the player would/could control Garrus (or someone else), "rallying the troops" per-say. Possibly switching the NPC controlled  by the player, pending different missions, world events, character alive or dead, etc. All the while alternating missions between Sheperd/Normandy... To then reunite at Earth and have a suicide mission x 1000.

It would have been really interesting to see how your past choices/relationships affected your squadmates opinions of you, and commitment to you, when you werent around and also in need of assistance. Would of added alot of depth to the LI of Sheperd to see how they were affected by your absence and current situation...

Too bad :(..


I also liked your ending idea, Possibly an ending level fight to the death, 
à la  Halo Reach's: Lone Wolf mission. A Bitter-sweet ending with Catharsis?? Brilliant!! 

Would be to "video-gamey" For Casey Hudson and Mac Walters though.... Not enough speculating invloved.

#93
SaleemRa

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gmboy902 wrote...

I agree that BioWare kind of set themselves up for a deus ex solution, but the Crucible was just done wrong. I would have preferred something less generic/sudden than a giant space cannon or a burst of light that kills all the Reapers (gee that seems familiar), but something less nihilistic than what we have.

Maybe a device that sends a signal which disables the Reapers' shields. It's explainable - over the course of millions of years, surely some civilizations have managed to learn something about the Reapers' shielding mechanisms. It may be a bit generic, but it would still lead to a satisfying conclusion and we could all forgive the Crucible for being tossed in in the first hours of ME3.


Agreed the Crucible could have been presented in a much better way maybe if it confused the reapers, shut off their barriers or just sent them into the sun instead of the weirdness of how it works. It would still require its use but it would make a lot more sense as to how it worked.

#94
EnvyTB075

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TookYoCookies wrote...

I also liked your ending idea, Possibly an ending level fight to the death, 
à la  Halo Reach's: Lone Wolf mission. A Bitter-sweet ending with Catharsis?? Brilliant!! 

Would be to "video-gamey" For Casey Hudson and Mac Walters though.... Not enough speculating invloved.


While that would be cool, i don't like the idea that it would necessarily be a fight to the death (of Shepard and co). It worked in Reach because we already knew what was going to happen, and Noble were one game characters.

The EMS system would have had a real use here in having two different outcomes to a conventional war scenario. So if your EMS wasn't high enough, the Crucible would indeed be your only option in the end (despite not knowing what the heck it does). If it was high enough then you could fight conventionally, and even then another set of parameters as to whether you win or lose that fight.

So many awesome options....so little consideration by BW...

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 03 mai 2012 - 12:41 .


#95
Cirreus

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Short story, Bioware's current staff are a bunch of hacks. If ME3 was focused on a suicide mission 2.0, Manhattan project, Indianna Jones adventure, the Crucible would make sense. But this is the team that gave us 3 (1 really) choice(s) that are complete bull sh*t.

Long story, the Reapers should have wiped out Earth & it's entire population in hours according to anyone's fleet numbers. There is no way the Crucible could have been constructed, let along protected to get into position & protected again to function while being out numbered at least 100:1. The ME art book states the design intention of the Crucible was akin to the atom bomb & some hybrid NASA probe. This falls back on the rumors that the ending (and meaning of even the Crucible) was changed at the last second. The design team was tasked with making a "space bomb", but what writers really meant was a large DNA/Remote Control/Red Laser Beam of Death mass effect pulse device ... right.

There is this different take on IT that perhaps Major Coats was also an indoctrinated sleeper agent & the Reapers we're holding off (in full force) on Earth until Shepard showed back up. Holds more water in my book than "Crucible test" theory from the space brat.

#96
EnvyTB075

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Cirreus wrote...

Long story, the Reapers should have wiped out Earth & it's entire population in hours according to anyone's fleet numbers. There is no way the Crucible could have been constructed, let along protected to get into position & protected again to function while being out numbered at least 100:1. The ME art book states the design intention of the Crucible was akin to the atom bomb & some hybrid NASA probe. This falls back on the rumors that the ending (and meaning of even the Crucible) was changed at the last second. The design team was tasked with making a "space bomb", but what writers really meant was a large DNA/Remote Control/Red Laser Beam of Death mass effect pulse device ... right.


If thats true, thats actually a whole lot like what i thought was going to happen in ME3. Using the Citadel, the reapers are sent back out to dark space and get blown up by the citadel (or some sort of indigenous bomb (i.e not Prothean) that Alliance/Salarian/Turian scientists co-developed after you enlisted their help throughout the game), or something of the like that makes sense that i haven't thought of.

Then, based on your EMS, you either live or die due to some other reasons i also haven't thought of, thats the general gist of it. Therefore the artsy folk could have their deep tragic ending and the rest of us can have an unlifting ending, depending on your choices.

#97
incinerator950

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Noelemahc wrote...

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

Nice idea. Is that why destroying all Reaper (or Reaper-Creator, as it may be) technology is built into the Crucible? I'm afraid to admit that this makes sense, but it does.


I have a feeling Bioware didn't intend this response, but may steal it to make the PR side easier.  

#98
Elyiia

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To add to the conversation:

Peak 15 has a safety system called Code Omega which is activated if there is a critical containment failure. The facility shuts off power, hoping the cold will deactivate or kill any escaped experiments, and Mira (the VI that runs Peak 15) is purged from the system. Back at Port Hanshan, the executive board then votes whether or not to destroy the facility from orbit, with an antimatter warhead from one of the orbiting battle stations.


Remembering that anti protons are used as a fuel source aboard military ships, they have to have a way to produce antimatter.

Also, 1.5g of antimatter is about the equivalent of a dreadnought's firepower. A 1.5g shot could be used on fighters. You would also be firing from a distance rather than tangling with the GARDIAN lasers on the Reapers.

A single dreadnought fires a 20kg slug for about 38 kilotons of TNT.
A 20kg slug of antimatter would explode with the force of approximately 859,200 kiltons of TNT.

#99
SaleemRa

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Cirreus wrote...

Short story, Bioware's current staff are a bunch of hacks. If ME3 was focused on a suicide mission 2.0, Manhattan project, Indianna Jones adventure, the Crucible would make sense. But this is the team that gave us 3 (1 really) choice(s) that are complete bull sh*t.

Long story, the Reapers should have wiped out Earth & it's entire population in hours according to anyone's fleet numbers. There is no way the Crucible could have been constructed, let along protected to get into position & protected again to function while being out numbered at least 100:1. The ME art book states the design intention of the Crucible was akin to the atom bomb & some hybrid NASA probe. This falls back on the rumors that the ending (and meaning of even the Crucible) was changed at the last second. The design team was tasked with making a "space bomb", but what writers really meant was a large DNA/Remote Control/Red Laser Beam of Death mass effect pulse device ... right.

There is this different take on IT that perhaps Major Coats was also an indoctrinated sleeper agent & the Reapers we're holding off (in full force) on Earth until Shepard showed back up. Holds more water in my book than "Crucible test" theory from the space brat.


Calling the Bioware writers a bunch of hacks is pretty harsh. Everyone has a boss and when he/she tells you wrap something up thats exactly what you have to do. I have no doubts that this is EA telling bioware to push it out regardless of state resulting in alot of what they wanted to do not getting implemented.

I dont agree that Eaths population would have been wiped out in a matter of hours, maybe if total annihilation was the goal but that is not the case. Heck even the PSTD asari in the hospital mentions that there were prisoners being held in camps awaiting harvest.

Also in ME2 it took the collectors quite a while to melt all the people just from horizon and the other colonist they took. Lilith is the last to go in the ME2 suicide mission, that was a "few" hundred thousand people not the billions on earth.

#100
Joccaren

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We do not need the Crucible.
Here is why:
-Instead of researching the Crucible, the Galaxy researches lasers, and makes effective lasers and puts them on Frigates. Frigates are vastly more manoeuvrable than Cruisers. In the ME3 end Cinematic, a cruiser dodges several Reaper shots. Frigates could get in fast, obliterate Reapers, then get out.
-You are counting for All Reapers at once v all Organic ships at once. I did a little comparison of this in Sins of a Solar Empire. I made a max pop Vasari Fleet, 11 Skirantra Carriers [Repair cloud is amazing], and 5 Kortul Devastators [Energy Burst is amazing]. The rest of the fleet was 100% Heavy Cruisers. I pit it against 7 other races. One of these races was TEC, with a fully upgraded starbase [All Weapons, Hull and Strike Craft], 10 Capital Ships and around 2000 population worth of frigates and cruisers of varying make defending one gravity well. The Vasari jumped in and fought. Within 20 seconds, the entire TEC fleet was dead, the Starbase undamaged. Now, I don't know if you know how strong Starbases are in Sins, but they are generally avoided by fleets. A TEC fully upgraded Starbase takes a fairly long time to take down without Anti-Module Ships. It fell in less than 1 minute. It fell in less than 30 seconds. It fell in less than 10 seconds. It died in 2 seconds under the combined firepower of the Vasari fleet. Guess Vasari losses. 6 Cruisers - or around 80 of 2000 supply.
I then sent it to each other race, and it obliterated their forces entirely thanks to superior firepower, and superior numbers. However, I did one final fight.
What remained of every other race, vs the Vasari in one system, their fleet replenished to max capacity with several level 10 Capital Ships, the Vasari Star Base and Vasari Orbital defences. Now, the other races fleet outnumbered the Vasari Fleet by a level of about 3 or 4 to 1. Whilst each of these forces had lost more than half of its overall military strength in less than a minute when fighting beforehand, when combined they managed to overcome the Vasari Fleet made even stronger by levels, Starbase and Planetary defences, whilst keeping more than half its fleet alive.
Not all Reapers are at Earth. Every Galaxy ship is though. We can take the Reapers down by taking them on with overwhelming numbers in smaller skirmishes around the galaxy. All v all, we would lose. All v small sections, we stand a chance at attrition.
-The Plot. The Reapers were given plot armour in ME3 [Or an effect thereof], yet we can be given the same sort of thing - without the Crucible, or the Reapers plot armour can be removed. If the Reapers were wanted to be defeated by Bioware, we would be able to defeat them.


I will agree that as the story is written we cannot destroy the Reapers conventionally. That is because it was written so that we could not beat them without the Crucible however. If they wanted to, Bioware could just as easily make our forces strong enough to defeat the Reapers. As has been said by yourself a few times: There are a lot of uncertainties. Bioware could simply say we have far more ships than most think, and bam - the Reaper advantage is gone. Bioware could say that the Reapers aren't really THAT numerous, and have fewer numbers than 20K, maybe evening out around 1K Caps, and 3K Destroyers [Those numbers don't even equal 1/10th of the Quarian fleet - 50K ships] - Reaper advantage gone. They could also say that Thannix are very effective against Reapers, and allow a 1 to 1 Dreadnought face off - another Reaper advantage gone.
Bioware can still write it so the Reapers are beatable - there is enough uncertainty for that. The reason they aren't beatable is because Bioware wants to hold on to the Crucible idea for Christ Shepard.