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[Noelemahc]

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

Nice idea. Is that why destroying all Reaper (or Reaper-Creator, as it may be) technology is built into the Crucible? I'm afraid to admit that this makes sense, but it does.

I have a feeling Bioware didn't intend this response, but may steal it to make the PR side easier.  

It's certainly far easier to implement properly without having to re-do a huge chunk of the game. AND it justifies certain bits of the story - certainly removes the disconnect between what Sovereign and Starchild say. Holy carp, General, you've just explained away most of the game's plotholes in one phrase!!!

And yes, I'm more than sure that's not what BioWare was trying to say, as even this had to be explained to us via someone's theories. The game certainly isn't trying to make this point in its plot.

[incinerator950]

Elyiia wrote...

To add to the conversation:

Peak 15 has a safety system called Code Omega which is activated if there is a critical containment failure. The facility shuts off power, hoping the cold will deactivate or kill any escaped experiments, and Mira (the VI that runs Peak 15) is purged from the system. Back at Port Hanshan, the executive board then votes whether or not to destroy the facility from orbit, with an antimatter warhead from one of the orbiting battle stations.

Remembering that anti protons are used as a fuel source aboard military ships, they have to have a way to produce antimatter.

Also, 1.5g of antimatter is about the equivalent of a dreadnought's firepower. A 1.5g shot could be used on fighters. You would also be firing from a distance rather than tangling with the GARDIAN lasers on the Reapers.

A single dreadnought fires a 20kg slug for about 38 kilotons of TNT.
A 20kg slug of antimatter would explode with the force of approximately 859,200 kiltons of TNT.

I don't think you want to fire an Anti-Matter round.  Of course, I'm not a physicist so meh.  Like the Conduit, I doubt Bioware remembered it.

[Elyiia]

incinerator950 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

To add to the conversation:

Peak 15 has a safety system called Code Omega which is activated if there is a critical containment failure. The facility shuts off power, hoping the cold will deactivate or kill any escaped experiments, and Mira (the VI that runs Peak 15) is purged from the system. Back at Port Hanshan, the executive board then votes whether or not to destroy the facility from orbit, with an antimatter warhead from one of the orbiting battle stations.

Remembering that anti protons are used as a fuel source aboard military ships, they have to have a way to produce antimatter.

Also, 1.5g of antimatter is about the equivalent of a dreadnought's firepower. A 1.5g shot could be used on fighters. You would also be firing from a distance rather than tangling with the GARDIAN lasers on the Reapers.

A single dreadnought fires a 20kg slug for about 38 kilotons of TNT.
A 20kg slug of antimatter would explode with the force of approximately 859,200 kiltons of TNT.

I don't think you want to fire an Anti-Matter round.  Of course, I'm not a physicist so meh.  Like the Conduit, I doubt Bioware remembered it.

Even if there's some reason you wouldn't want to that I don't know of, what's to stop suicide fighters exploding themselves next to a Reaper?

[Noelemahc]

RE: Crucible is a test.

The funny part is, in this case the "blorking the Reapers conventionally" is also an important option, as it shows that the test is not just outdated, but also poorly-designed. I mean, what's the point of harvesting organics anymore if those organics can unharvest themselves? Oh, and the lack of a failsafe for "oh, crap, we're late, the Singularity happened, robosexuals have united the synthetics and organics into one happy family already" should also be corrected in the Reaper 2.0 project which Stargazer is probably the head of, the way things are going.

A single dreadnought fires a 20kg slug for about 38 kilotons of TNT.
A 20kg slug of antimatter would explode with the force of approximately 859,200 kiltons of TNT.

Good luck not damaging Urth, then. Don't forget, there's still a lot of everything down there to suffer the consequences of collateral damage from anything we do in orbit. Unless, of course, we're desperate enough to kill whoever hasn't been sludged already.

Even if there's some reason you wouldn't want to that I don't know of,
what's to stop suicide fighters exploding themselves next to a Reaper?

Lack of fighters. The ease with which point-defense or Oculi could blow one of them among the United Fleet's ranks and cause a lot of damage to our forces. Ouchie. If you choose to automate the fighters, it's also an issue of accuracy.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 03 mai 2012 - 01:17 .

[incinerator950]

Elyiia wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

To add to the conversation:

Peak 15 has a safety system called Code Omega which is activated if there is a critical containment failure. The facility shuts off power, hoping the cold will deactivate or kill any escaped experiments, and Mira (the VI that runs Peak 15) is purged from the system. Back at Port Hanshan, the executive board then votes whether or not to destroy the facility from orbit, with an antimatter warhead from one of the orbiting battle stations.

Remembering that anti protons are used as a fuel source aboard military ships, they have to have a way to produce antimatter.

Also, 1.5g of antimatter is about the equivalent of a dreadnought's firepower. A 1.5g shot could be used on fighters. You would also be firing from a distance rather than tangling with the GARDIAN lasers on the Reapers.

A single dreadnought fires a 20kg slug for about 38 kilotons of TNT.
A 20kg slug of antimatter would explode with the force of approximately 859,200 kiltons of TNT.

I don't think you want to fire an Anti-Matter round.  Of course, I'm not a physicist so meh.  Like the Conduit, I doubt Bioware remembered it.

Even if there's some reason you wouldn't want to that I don't know of, what's to stop suicide fighters exploding themselves next to a Reaper?

Artistic Integrity doesn't want Suicide Fighters, Drones, or suicide FTL jumpships.  

[Elyiia]

Noelemahc wrote...

A single dreadnought fires a 20kg slug for about 38 kilotons of TNT.
A 20kg slug of antimatter would explode with the force of approximately 859,200 kiltons of TNT.

Good luck not damaging Urth, then. Don't forget, there's still a lot of everything down there to suffer the consequences of collateral damage from anything we do in orbit. Unless, of course, we're desperate enough to kill whoever hasn't been sludged already.

I wasn't suggesting firing a 20kg slug of antimatter, that would be as dumb as the Reaper's tactics. It was just to point out the difference in values.

[TookYoCookies]

Versidious wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...
"Guerrila warfare ftw."

Guerilla warfare would not work against the Reapers. The Reapers have superior maneuverability, and are the attacking force. The goal of the organics is to defend their planets. If they do not, then they will go extinct - they lose the ability to reproduce, manufacture, refuel, and repair, and thus replenish their losses. Look at the state of the Migrant fleet, and consider that the Migrant Fleet largely avoids conflict and has the ability to purchase and trade to gain new ships. Now imagine that the Migrant Fleet was actively being hunted by a numerically and technologically superior foe, and had to atttack them - if it gets caught just once, it gets annihilated. The Reapers, therefore, have the greater ability to choose when and where battles actually take place. The Reapers do not have a will to break. They perform their genocidal function, reproduce, and leave.

No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. Vietnam, the Peninsula Wars, Maoist Guerillas, the list goes on. Another key difference, is that in all these cases, a single bullet can kill a Navy Seal or Napoleonic Sharpshooter almost as easily as it can kill a Spanish or Vietnamese peasant. You only need the element of surprise to win against these foes. Against the Reapers, Council navies need to attack in superior numbers, because it takes the firepower of multiple ships to overwhelm their shields. And, if you fail, then the Reaper is faster than you, and can catch you up and obliterate you. It can cut off your ability to use the relays, and laugh at your attempts at surprise attacks. And let's not forget that Reapers *can* track the stealthed Normandy, however fast she is.

Any 'victorious' engagement against the Reapers still leads to losses on our part. Any victory by the Reapers leads to a gain in resources through their harvesting techniques. In short, they have a significant advantage in attrition. They can communicate with each other near instantaneously, run away if we engage them with superior forces, and come back with friends. Guerilla tactics would be next to useless against the Reapers, and would waste military resources better suited to guarding a doomsday device.  

(@SaleemRa this is to you to, since you insist on going into specifics that would drag this f*cking conversation on for hours)


yea wow, again not my intention of : "Guerrila Warfare ftw" To Mean Guerrila Warfare will win the war. more so: "ftw" (For the win; not the literal sense, more the usual internet mindset of: "F*ck your lemons, i'd rather do it my way" ) meaning i would much rather take my chances, dragging this fight on as long as possible, taking punches and throwing my own when i can, instead of  the poorly designed/implented Plot device that is the Crucible, that is forced down upon us.

Fighting the Reapers basically means death is imminent regardlss of what you do. Putting all of your assets into one possible Super Weapon, thats never been built/used/seen before, sounds like a giant waste of f*cking time and resources that could be better spent doing other things: i.e. Fighting the Reapers. (Which is forbidden by the plot)

Im not going to waste time going into detials of specific strategies, and tactics to be used, partly because that would all change depending on the repears behavior (a Perfect example being: the miracle at Palaven), but mostly because, as i said, that would be a giant waste of  f*cking time given the crucible is now apparently our only possible means to destroying them, and thus victory...

The game shows the reapers can be decieved, they can make mistakes, they underestimate their opponents, and their Highly allergic to m92-Cains. They arent perfect, despite how much you insist they are. Does that mean a long drawn out, guerrilla style war is winnable? No.But that doesnt mean its not winnable, nor that its not worth the effort.

The existence of the Crucible, and the assurance of all the Characters around you that: "yup this is the only way to win, i have no f*cking clue what it will do-- but yup! This or we die." is what renders it obsolete.

 No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. 

For the most part, i would argue the US beat the British pretty bad before they gave in and surrendered, but yeah i see your point... But your still assuming though, that if they kept fighting and didnt surrender they would eventually overcome the guerrila faction, which isnt true, and isnt something we could possibly know. Maybe/ Maybe not, a determined opponent is not one you want to under estimate, and fighting for the survival of your galaxy, not to mention your own, and your loved ones, etc, i cant imagine anything more motivating. 

Whats that you say? a lesser opponent overcoming adversity to achieve victory despite overwhelming odds??? BLASPHEMY!!! This has never happend before!!! Rabbe Rabble Rabble...        Ohh, Sh*t, yeah.... forgot all about Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2.. Not to mention the hundreds of RL examples that could apply here but would be for-naught; given my main point this entire time has been that..:

"The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. "

[glacier1701]

 The one thing I did not see in the OP (and it has been ignored in many other similar discussion threads) is the use of kamikaze ships. We know for a fact that the production of antimatter in the ME universe is normal practice for use as fuel on many ships. It is not hard to load up a large amount (40 or 50kg perhaps?) onto a shuttle and then ram that into a Reaper. I am aware that this means that a LOT of shuttles will be needed to swamp the defences but NO DEFENCE is 100% proof against such attacks. 1 or 2 such successful ram attacks should be more than enough to take out a Reaper (by that I mean a dreadnought sized one). And since shuttles should be VERY common and easily produced this should be a fairly good way to at least whittle down Reaper fleet numbers before sending in main fleets.

 To make these attacks even more effective you could actually have the shuttles manned by both an organic AND Geth and just prior to impact the Geth would transfer out. This would allow info on the best tactics to be disseminated throughout the fleet so that future attacks would be more effective. The advantage of this tactic is that perhaps ONLY thousands of people will be lost (with geth casulties during the run ins) and that the main fleets will only be fighting seriously depleted Reaper fleets with many badly damaged ships. While the Reapers could counter this by going planetside that only allows greater freedom to the defenders who can now wait in ambush for any attempt to leave the planet. Indeed it might make it easier to attack the Reapers as now even a near miss groundside will do tremendous damage to them.

 Of course gameplay would suffer as this is not exactly the heroic style but it is a possible means of winning the war without need of the Crucible.

Modifié par glacier1701, 03 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[Elyiia]

glacier1701 wrote...


 The one thing I did not see in the OP (and it has been ignored in many other similar discussion threads) is the use of kamikaze ships. We know for a fact that the production of antimatter in the ME universe is normal practice for use as fuel on many ships. It is not hard to load up a large amount (40 or 50kg perhaps?) onto a shuttle and then ram that into a Reaper. I am aware that this means that a LOT of shuttles will be needed to swamp the defences but NO DEFENCE is 100% proof against such attacks. 1 or 2 such successful ram attacks should be more than enough to take out a Reaper (by that I mean a dreadnought sized one). And since shuttles should be VERY common and easily produced this should be a fairly good way to at least whittle down Reaper fleet numbers before sending in main fleets.

 To make these attacks even more effective you could actually have the shuttles manned by both an organic AND Geth and just prior to impact the Geth would transfer out. This would allow info on the best tactics to be disseminated throughout the fleet so that future attacks would be more effective. The advantage of this tactic is that perhaps ONLY thousands of people will be lost (with geth casulties during the run ins) and that the main fleets will only be fighting seriously depleted Reaper fleets with many badly damaged ships. While the Reapers could counter this by going planetside that only allows greater freedom to the defenders who can now wait in ambush for any attempt to leave the planet. Indeed it might make it easier to attack the Reapers as now even a near miss groundside will do tremendous damage to them.

 Of course gameplay would suffer as this is not exactly the heroic style but it is a possible means of winning the war without need of the Crucible.

Using a 50kg blob of antimatter would be very, very bad. It would be much, much more effective to modify fighter weapons to use 6g of antimatter (The equivalent of four dreadnoughts firing at once). Thus, every fighter now equals a Capital ship.

[shodiswe]

I read the first few lines, but the rest was just too much and Im not against the crucible and I've never belived that a conventional solution would actualy work... sure some ideas might actualy be able to cause a lot of hard to the reaper forces but  Idoubt it would be enough to destroy all of them... Destroying 80% of all reaper forces woudln't be enough of that costs you everythign you got.. sure it's probably the biggest losses that the reapers have ever taken.. but it's still a loosing proposition.

Maybe you tremendously long thread was a pro endign post to justify the ending... However the crucible itself wasn't a problem imo.

My biggest problem was the out of character reactions and conversation between the Reaperleader(catalyst) and Shepard. The whole conversation was illogical and out of character, least for my shepard.

Im not sure if there is a single player that would buy advice and recomendations comming from the reapers.... Yet shepard doesn't voice any kind of hessitation... It's like Shepard meet an old friend and that old friend is giving shepard invaluable advice in a way that inspires absolute trust...  ?!?

The catalyst is willingly tellign Shepard where shepard needs to point the gun to destroy the reapers.... Seriously... could Sheaprd have figured that one out on his/her own? Destabilizing the energy transfer between the Citadel and Crucible = Dead reapers?   Why would the reapers want to do that?

It would have been far more belivable if Shepard and the catalyst woudl have started a shouting contest and then all of a sudden EDI tells shepard what has to be done because she managed to slip into the catalysts systems and steal the knowledge... Then the story would have made sense... Multi-coloured endings or not.

The fact that the one controllign the reapers tells shepard what to do is what really grinds me... It makes no sense, and getting it without even arguing with the catalyst makes it even worse.. A lot of people are frustrated by the fact that the reapers are handing you the victory, it's not of your own doing.

I also find it horrible since none of it makes sense.

The Shepard/catalyst conversation seems a likely as President Bush calling Saddam Husein and teling him he will surrender himself and arrive by hellicpter ready to get arrested after having pretty much secured a military victory.

Saddam buddy!! I've been thinking maybe I was too hasrse and did some misstakes im prepared to surrender and hand myself over to you so you can dispense your own personal Justice on my supperior self. Then the US forces will redraw and lift all sanctions once im dead or incarcerated, whatever you choose.

Saddam: I'm glad you finaly realized what you're doing isn't right. My elite torturers will be waiting for you, don't worry they are the best.

G W Bush: Splendid, looking forward to it.

///////////////

Seriously would anyone buy into a movie ending like that? Especialy if it isn't a commedy?

That's the main problem with the ending, none of it makes sense and it looks liek the writers coudln't figure out what to do so they just pushed in something, or maybe they missed some of the thoguhtprocesses leading to that point... As it is atm none of it makes sense.

The crusible and pairing it with the citadel, using the enemys tech against them... That part kind of works, however the execution of the story fell flat and failed every logic test I can think of.

The finaly mission on earth could have been more polished aswell, but what really grinds me is the buvhery committed on good story telling making it some of the worst I've ever seen.

I don't know how the extended DLC will be able to explain that conversation and make it work... It jsut seems impossible.. Unless there is a cutscene with EDI telling Shepard she has assumed direct control over the catalyst and she will guide shepard through the activation process. Then Shepard could pretend to not know it's actualy EDI... yet again... it would still be weird.. The sudden change to the relationship between Shepard and the reapers makes no sense, and it makes no sense for the reapers to invite their own destruction.

[SaleemRa]

TookYoCookies wrote...


(@SaleemRa this is to you to, since you insist on going into specifics that would drag this f*cking conversation on for hours)


yea wow, again not my intention of : "Guerrila Warfare ftw" To Mean Guerrila Warfare will win the war. more so: "ftw" (For the win; not the literal sense, more the usual internet mindset of: "F*ck your lemons, i'd rather do it my way" ) meaning i would much rather take my chances, dragging this fight on as long as possible, taking punches and throwing my own when i can, instead of  the poorly designed/implented Plot device that is the Crucible, that is forced down upon us.

I'll put this plainly bud, you say something FTW then saying

TookYoCookies wrote...
Bump for possible rebuttal? ( im pretty sure i /thread'd this b*tch earlier but im willing to be entertained..)

is inviting someone to point out the gaping hole in your idea. For the record Guerilla warfare is not FTW in the manner you "apparently" describe it to be, it a slow gruesome death especially when your guerilla strikes would be as effective as a gnat biting a horse. Annoying yes, effective no. In fact you squandering your resources by applying them piecemeal in situations where you achive nothing.

Guerilla warfare works in real life due to the fact that an 8 year old firing an AK47 is just as likely to kill a navy seal who has had 20++ years of experience. In the ME universe you cannot one shot a reaper, you can barely even scratch them, please dont get started about kamilaze ships they are not something that is present in the setting not to mention the absurdity of dedicating all those resources to building suicide drones. Whose to say that an FTL collision wont just end up being a specatacular light show. In ME1 we see sovvy stroll through the citadel fleet without even breaking stride. Riddle me this batman, what happens to a bug that hits a cars windscreen moving at 100 mph? It isnt going to even scratch the glass that what.

TookYoCookies wrote...
Fighting the Reapers basically means death is imminent regardlss of what you do. Putting all of your assets into one possible Super Weapon, thats never been built/used/seen before, sounds like a giant waste of f*cking time and resources that could be better spent doing other things: i.e. Fighting the Reapers. (Which is forbidden by the plot)

Hey Sherlock guess what, your fighting the reapers the entire game. The Crucible is being built because EVERYONE in universe believes that the protheans are just all that, not to mention that preliminary data as stated by Hackett indicates it has the capacity for UNPRECEDENTED DESTRUCTION.The only one who is skeptical about it is Sheperd. So lets compare which is the bigger waste of time and resources, a course of action that will see you loosing assets as a result of attrition and eventually end up being exhausted, out of ammo and fuel or pooling everything into a last ditch effort and taking your chances there? The first garauntees utter destruction eventually while the other gives you a chance regardless how remote.

TookYoCookies wrote...
Im not going to waste time going into detials of specific strategies, and tactics to be used, partly because that would all change depending on the repears behavior (a Perfect example being: the miracle at Palaven), but mostly because, as i said, that would be a giant waste of  f*cking time given the crucible is now apparently our only possible means to destroying them, and thus victory...

The game shows the reapers can be decieved, they can make mistakes, they underestimate their opponents, and their Highly allergic to m92-Cains. They arent perfect, despite how much you insist they are. Does that mean a long drawn out, guerrilla style war is winnable? No.But that doesnt mean its not winnable, nor that its not worth the effort.

I am really starting to doubt were playing the same game here but first what miracle at palaven? Palaven was getting turned into a waste land Garrus even tell Victus to pullout the fleet to save it for the final push because they arent doing anything of value? Is that the miracle your talking about? Smart leaders who know when to withdraw?

Secondly Reapers allergic to cains? Go and play priority earth again bud, you shoot the cain at a hades cannon not a sovvy class, not even a destroyer. Its a gun emplacement of reaper design not a battleship.

TookYoCookies wrote...
The existence of the Crucible, and the assurance of all the Characters around you that: "yup this is the only way to win, i have no f*cking clue what it will do-- but yup! This or we die." is what renders it obsolete.

And who are those people telling you this? Hacket admiral of the fleet, Andy, admiral of the fleet, Liara shadowbroker... hmmm all very reliable and respected sources of information in game These are people who would know the military strength they have available to them. They would know first hand how hard their weapons can hit. Your looking at the game and making assumptions from an outside view looking in, your not even in the same universe, your view is based on Sheps view and even then you dont know everything he knows just what were told in the narrative. The codex has no real hard values on anything at best its one big guestimate not hard fact. Cutscenes show you stuff from a limited perspective not a complete overview so again we can only estimate.

TookYoCookies wrote...

 No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. 

For the most part, i would argue the US beat the British pretty bad before they gave in and surrendered, but yeah i see your point... But your still assuming though, that if they kept fighting and didnt surrender they would eventually overcome the guerrila faction, which isnt true, and isnt something we could possibly know. Maybe/ Maybe not, a determined opponent is not one you want to under estimate, and fighting for the survival of your galaxy, not to mention your own, and your loved ones, etc, i cant imagine anything more motivating. 

Whats that you say? a lesser opponent overcoming adversity to achieve victory despite overwhelming odds??? BLASPHEMY!!! This has never happend before!!! Rabbe Rabble Rabble...        Ohh, Sh*t, yeah.... forgot all about Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2.. Not to mention the hundreds of RL examples that could apply here but would be for-naught; given my main point this entire time has been that..:

"The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. "

The british troops lost the will to fight due to the constant attrition they faced, not to mention disease and supply line issues. They also were also demoralized from losing friends and comrades, these are not effects that apply to GODLIKE MACHINES that require no fuel or food as we know of and kind brainwash your buddies.

In ME1 you were fighting 1 reaper and ME2 you were fighting a bunch of husks (thats what the collectors were husks) and a partially built reaper, not hundreds of reaper capital ships. Your comparison is flawed at the most basic level. Perhaps if Shep was superman Garrus Batman and Liara WonderWoman fighting a guerilla war could work otherwise your just deluding yourself.

[a.m.p]

About the quarian fleet. Dialogue states one thing, cutscenes state another thing, both are part of the game. We can spend the rest of our lives arguing which takes precedence.
Talk about mixed signals.

Noelemahc wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

Nice idea. Is that why destroying all Reaper (or Reaper-Creator, as it may be) technology is built into the Crucible? I'm afraid to admit that this makes sense, but it does.

I have a feeling Bioware didn't intend this response, but may steal it to make the PR side easier.  

It's certainly far easier to implement properly without having to re-do a huge chunk of the game. AND it justifies certain bits of the story - certainly removes the disconnect between what Sovereign and Starchild say. Holy carp, General, you've just explained away most of the game's plotholes in one phrase!!!

And yes, I'm more than sure that's not what BioWare was trying to say, as even this had to be explained to us via someone's theories. The game certainly isn't trying to make this point in its plot.

There are a few problems that this doesn't fix.
Synthesis still makes no sense from a lore level.
Shepard still trusts a weird glowing something that wants them to kill themselves.
The ridiculous approach to the creator/created problem is still ridiculous.
You still have to shoot a tube to activate one of its fuctions.
And so on.
It does fix the whole "constructed by people who didn't know what it did" thing. And the reapers letting Shepard in thing. So it's better than nothing.

Gee, I wish somebody from Bioware could tell us what it was they were trying to say with their ending.

[Noelemahc]

There are a few problems that this doesn't fix.

I didn't say it was the megafix. Just said that it's the best and shortest interpretation of the ending I've seen to date that may have actually been sorta kinda, but not quite, what BioWare wanted to tell us to begin with.

Gee, I wish somebody from Bioware could tell us what it was they were trying to say with their ending.

Nah, they'd rather torture us with silence and the occasional tweet about "Saw bits of EC today, it's gonna be so AWESUM" (which is the extent of updates on the EC progress we're getting now from official twitters, I kid you not). Remember - they tweeted the same things about the game's ending last autumn. And about Tali's face last spring. So, yeah, skepticism full-blast.

The british troops lost the will to fight due to the constant attrition they faced, not to mention disease and supply line issues. They also were also demoralized from losing friends and comrades, these are not effects that apply to GODLIKE MACHINES that require no fuel or food as we know of and kind brainwash your buddies.

The Two Girls At The Checkpoint are there for a reason. They discuss this at length, along with several other matters concerning the inapplicability of traditional tactics against the Reapers.

[Versidious]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

The Crucible was the final test for organics to move beyond the Reaper solution, and was thus built by whoever built the Reapers and the Citadel (Catalyst) for this single purpose; to give organics to chance to choose for themselves and to reset the galaxy so that said organics would have to survive on their own merits instead of abusing the technology the Reapers had laid out for them in the grand trap.

Nice idea. Is that why destroying all Reaper (or Reaper-Creator, as it may be) technology is built into the Crucible? I'm afraid to admit that this makes sense, but it does.

That's why I think Catalyst made it a big deal that Shepard was there, 'the first organic to do so' because he passed the test and had proven that organics could make the hard choices about their own future, limited as they were. Plus, Catalyst said that he couldn't make the choice, and defered to Shepard; many people ask why that is but the answer lies in what the Crucible itself represents.

Interesting...  I've heard that theory before, but don't think I was ready to seriously consider it...  Having said that, it's not entirely perfect a theory, though I do quite like it. What happened to the creators is currently something of a mystery, though it could be fixed. It certainly explains how the Reapers didn't care about the Catalyst, and ignored the Crucible's construction until it was crunch time.

There is one problem with it, however, and that is that the Reapers and Crucible did not truly test this cycle's togetherness, or indeed any other previous cycles. Remember, the only reason we did not fail was because the Protheans, the now extinct species, foiled the Reapers' trap, which was itself a chief reason behind their failure (They had a united galaxy, and were only divided when the Reapers turned up and seperated all their clusters by shutting down the Mass Relays). Not only that, but the Crucible as a continuing project is further example of the kind of behaviour that the Reapers exploit, that of finding stuff made by someone else and mimicing it, instead of conceiving of our own technology.
It does not test a cycle's ability to overcome the Technological Singularity issue that Mr Hudson used as the Catalyst's motive, nor does people's unity when their very existence is threatened and they're offered a Magic Bullet if they work together even truly represent their ability to cooperate in peacetime. Instead, it is more a question of luck - the Protheans had all but perfected the device, and we had enough savvy to figure it out. Imagine if we'd been around in a previous cycle? Nothing about our galactic civilisation would have made us able to survive - we're less technologically advanced than the Protheans, and indeed less advanced than many other previous species.

So yes, while I really, really like the idea, I don't think that's what the Crucible was, though it could just be Bioware's sloppy writing, or I've not thought it through enough!

[TookYoCookies]

[quote]SaleemRa wrote...

[quote]TookYoCookies wrote...


(@SaleemRa this is to you to, since you insist on going into specifics that would drag this f*cking conversation on for hours)


yea wow, again not my intention of : "Guerrila Warfare ftw" To Mean Guerrila Warfare will win the war. more so: "ftw" (For the win; not the literal sense, more the usual internet mindset of: "F*ck your lemons, i'd rather do it my way" ) meaning i would much rather take my chances, dragging this fight on as long as possible, taking punches and throwing my own when i can, instead of  the poorly designed/implented Plot device that is the Crucible, that is forced down upon us.
[/quote]

I'll put this plainly bud, you say something FTW then saying
[quote]TookYoCookies wrote...
Bump for possible rebuttal? ( im pretty sure i /thread'd this b*tch earlier but im willing to be entertained..)
[/quote]
is inviting someone to point out the gaping hole in your idea. For the record Guerilla warfare is not FTW in the manner you "apparently" describe it to be, it a slow gruesome death especially when your guerilla strikes would be as effective as a gnat biting a horse. Annoying yes, effective no. In fact you squandering your resources by applying them piecemeal in situations where you achive nothing.

Guerilla warfare works in real life due to the fact that an 8 year old firing an AK47 is just as likely to kill a navy seal who has had 20++ years of experience. In the ME universe you cannot one shot a reaper, you can barely even scratch them, please dont get started about kamilaze ships they are not something that is present in the setting not to mention the absurdity of dedicating all those resources to building suicide drones. Whose to say that an FTL collision wont just end up being a specatacular light show. In ME1 we see sovvy stroll through the citadel fleet without even breaking stride. Riddle me this batman, what happens to a bug that hits a cars windscreen moving at 100 mph? It isnt going to even scratch the glass that what.

[quote]TookYoCookies wrote...
Fighting the Reapers basically means death is imminent regardlss of what you do. Putting all of your assets into one possible Super Weapon, thats never been built/used/seen before, sounds like a giant waste of f*cking time and resources that could be better spent doing other things: i.e. Fighting the Reapers. (Which is forbidden by the plot)
[/quote]

Hey Sherlock guess what, your fighting the reapers the entire game. The Crucible is being built because EVERYONE in universe believes that the protheans are just all that, not to mention that preliminary data as stated by Hackett indicates it has the capacity for UNPRECEDENTED DESTRUCTION.The only one who is skeptical about it is Sheperd. So lets compare which is the bigger waste of time and resources, a course of action that will see you loosing assets as a result of attrition and eventually end up being exhausted, out of ammo and fuel or pooling everything into a last ditch effort and taking your chances there? The first garauntees utter destruction eventually while the other gives you a chance regardless how remote.

[quote]TookYoCookies wrote...
Im not going to waste time going into detials of specific strategies, and tactics to be used, partly because that would all change depending on the repears behavior (a Perfect example being: the miracle at Palaven), but mostly because, as i said, that would be a giant waste of  f*cking time given the crucible is now apparently our only possible means to destroying them, and thus victory...

The game shows the reapers can be decieved, they can make mistakes, they underestimate their opponents, and their Highly allergic to m92-Cains. They arent perfect, despite how much you insist they are. Does that mean a long drawn out, guerrilla style war is winnable? No.But that doesnt mean its not winnable, nor that its not worth the effort.
[/quote]

I am really starting to doubt were playing the same game here but first what miracle at palaven? Palaven was getting turned into a waste land Garrus even tell Victus to pullout the fleet to save it for the final push because they arent doing anything of value? Is that the miracle your talking about? Smart leaders who know when to withdraw?

Secondly Reapers allergic to cains? Go and play priority earth again bud, you shoot the cain at a hades cannon not a sovvy class, not even a destroyer. Its a gun emplacement of reaper design not a battleship.


[quote]TookYoCookies wrote...
The existence of the Crucible, and the assurance of all the Characters around you that: "yup this is the only way to win, i have no f*cking clue what it will do-- but yup! This or we die." is what renders it obsolete.[/quote]

And who are those people telling you this? Hacket admiral of the fleet, Andy, admiral of the fleet, Liara shadowbroker... hmmm all very reliable and respected sources of information in game These are people who would know the military strength they have available to them. They would know first hand how hard their weapons can hit. Your looking at the game and making assumptions from an outside view looking in, your not even in the same universe, your view is based on Sheps view and even then you dont know everything he knows just what were told in the narrative. The codex has no real hard values on anything at best its one big guestimate not hard fact. Cutscenes show you stuff from a limited perspective not a complete overview so again we can only estimate.

[quote]TookYoCookies wrote...
[quote] No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. [/quote]

For the most part, i would argue the US beat the British pretty bad before they gave in and surrendered, but yeah i see your point... But your still assuming though, that if they kept fighting and didnt surrender they would eventually overcome the guerrila faction, which isnt true, and isnt something we could possibly know. Maybe/ Maybe not, a determined opponent is not one you want to under estimate, and fighting for the survival of your galaxy, not to mention your own, and your loved ones, etc, i cant imagine anything more motivating. 

Whats that you say? a lesser opponent overcoming adversity to achieve victory despite overwhelming odds??? BLASPHEMY!!! This has never happend before!!! Rabbe Rabble Rabble...        Ohh, Sh*t, yeah.... forgot all about Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2.. Not to mention the hundreds of RL examples that could apply here but would be for-naught; given my main point this entire time has been that..:

"The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. "

[/quote]

The british troops lost the will to fight due to the constant attrition they faced, not to mention disease and supply line issues. They also were also demoralized from losing friends and comrades, these are not effects that apply to GODLIKE MACHINES that require no fuel or food as we know of and kind brainwash your buddies.

In ME1 you were fighting 1 reaper and ME2 you were fighting a bunch of husks (thats what the collectors were husks) and a partially built reaper, not hundreds of reaper capital ships. Your comparison is flawed at the most basic level. Perhaps if Shep was superman Garrus Batman and Liara WonderWoman fighting a guerilla war could work otherwise your just deluding yourself.

[/quote] 


Yea again, [quote] 
"The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. " [/quote]

is not that its stupid because you should be able to win with guerrilla stylye warfare given the information with in the game, ive stated previously the game actively tells you thats not the case. It's f*cking stupid as a plot deivce, its inclusion in the story is f*cking stupid. 

You have constantly taken everything i said, and interpreted it in a way that it was not meant to be interpreted, even after i made a post saying that this was not to interpreted as a set-in-stone strategy to tie-in with lore/resources with in the game. I pointed out reasons how it would be applicable, and in my opinion, more fun, and a more realistic strategy. Not "OMG this is a MUST do RAHHHHH" as you seem to believe. You have over analyzed this to the nth degree. 

I pointed out in almost every paragraph, that i just think that sh*t (the crucible) is dumb, its a macguffin, all the way up to the point when you go to activate it and it transforms into a deus ex machina. Wow, fantastic storytelling. I get it, you think guerrilla warfare is a no go; noted lol.

Still, i'd have rather had the story taken that route, despite how impossible you think it would be, then be introduced to baby space jesus and given the choice of three sh*tty options.

[quote]  "The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. " [/quote] 

Do i need to explain my opinion any further lol?  I eagerly await your over-analysis, as this sh*t is decent free entertainment, which is hard to come by these days. (and it appears to be endless as well so far, so i've yet to be dissapointed which is more than i can say for ME3.)



[quote]
Hey Sherlock guess what, your fighting the reapers the entire game. [/quote]
P.S. nah, your fighting cerebus most of the time. 

[Laurencio]

How about if we evacuated the majority of the fleet, and blew up the Sol relay? That would significantly even out the odds, perhaps even cripple the reapers as they seem to indicate that the majority of the reaper fleet is in Sol trying to stop you...

[a.m.p]

Laurencio wrote...

How about if we evacuated the majority of the fleet, and blew up the Sol relay? That would significantly even out the odds, perhaps even cripple the reapers as they seem to indicate that the majority of the reaper fleet is in Sol trying to stop you...

It's another interesting thing.
After Arrival they could have easily stated that the relay explosion propagates at FTL speeds and nothing can outrun it not even in FTL because [technobabble].
Instead they implied that it's your normal sublight explosion and blowing up a relay will only slow reapers in that system down, at least that's how I understand that codex entry. So we didn't doubt that the crucible was the only option. The fact that OP had to write that whole essay and people are still not convinced, shows how well that worked.

[JShepppp]

 Woke up and saw a lot of new discussion. A few things I'd like to add in relevance to some ideas. 

Antimatter and Kamikaze/Bombs/etc.: There is a Codex entry somewhere that talks about antimatter actually being grabbed from stars. It cannot be produced in enough quantities on its own. "Fuel refineries", so to speak, grab antimatter from stars and ships pick them up. Reapers are quick to note our reliance on these resources and they could exploit that easily. Actually, we're told that they destroy refineries and such as they move through. Also, surely fuel production is at peak capacity during the war and we're not given any indication to suggest they could increase resource generation during the Reaper war because of how thorough the Reapers are.

Guerilla Warfare: Three things off the top of my head (others mentioned similar things) that make human examples different. One is resources; we would have to have constant supplies of resources to execute it, and the Reapers are very efficient at destroying resources/refineries/etc as they move about. They have no resources we can destroy. Second is the morale factor; the Reapers' morale cannot be lowered. Third is the technology barrier; whereas every human can be killed with just one bullet, Reapers are not as easy to kill relatively as organics are. The fact is we must outright kill Reapers and come up with creative ways to do so. Hit and run attacks would be ineffective because (a) shields would recharge and ( Reapers in formation would obliterate the ships before they run. This is all assuming the Reapers aren't as moronic as we see in the game. If they decided to kill everyone because they thought they may lose too many ships to be able to "police" the cycle anymore, they could just do it and no amount of smart tactics will change anything. Indoctrination changes stuff too. Still, no matter how smart, fast, or skilled you are, firepower at a superior enough level will bluntly obliterate everything.

The Crucible as a Test: It is entirely possible for organics to develop technology superior to the Reapers after enough time. There is no reason why the creator race, so to speak, was the ONLY one who could create it. Also, the Catalyst reveals that "I can't activate it, and I won't" (or words to that extent) which I took to mean that even if it could, it would choose not to, implying that it considers its methods better than the Crucible. Synthesis is the best the Crucible offers for the Catalyst, but the Catalyst would rather prefer its own cycle. This is confirmed when waiting long enough shows the Reapers were moving to destroy the Crucible. I've discussed this in another thread I started a long time ago. The test idea is valid, but I don't think it's the only option, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the best one. 

About Bioware Writing It That Way: I said this before in the thread but think it got looked over. Obviously they wrote it so the Crucible is the only option. That entire line of discussion is redundant, I think. That's like saying they wrote ME so that Shepard is the hero instead of Liara. 

Modifié par JShepppp, 03 mai 2012 - 03:45 .

[JShepppp]

a.m.p wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

How about if we evacuated the majority of the fleet, and blew up the Sol relay? That would significantly even out the odds, perhaps even cripple the reapers as they seem to indicate that the majority of the reaper fleet is in Sol trying to stop you...

It's another interesting thing.
After Arrival they could have easily stated that the relay explosion propagates at FTL speeds and nothing can outrun it not even in FTL because [technobabble].
Instead they implied that it's your normal sublight explosion and blowing up a relay will only slow reapers in that system down, at least that's how I understand that codex entry. So we didn't doubt that the crucible was the only option. The fact that OP had to write that whole essay and people are still not convinced, shows how well that worked.

True. and I actually lol-ed at the "write that whole essay and people are not convinced, shows how well that worked" part...

[SpartanCommander]

Well technicaly their is a weakness the Reapers seem to have.

When the smaller Reaper ships fired it would seem they had to lower their Barriers. Which seemed to have left it vulnerable to weapons fire from the Normandy.

Which seemed to cause the Reaper trouble. It would seem that with out barriers the Reaper's effectiveness is drastically reduced like on the First ME game as soon as Soveran's shields were down the Fleet easily destoryed it. That would mean that the Majority of Reapers Defences is focused on their barriers.



I also noticed the last blow when the Quarrian fleet shot at the Reaper I saw around 4 direct hits to the Reaper's gun which was the killing blow. So it would mean that Reapers do have a vulnerable spot on their Guns.

Considering the larger ones likely only need to lower their barriers on their weapons to fire a direct hit there would likely cause damage since it's likely the least armored part on a Reaper.

I would have loved for Hackette to at least have commented on the fact we found a soft spot on Reaper ships which could be exploited. Then all they need to do is find a way to quickly reduce a Reaper's shields. A like find a weapon that can drain barriers or lower it drastically so other weapons can be brought to bare.

[Versidious]

TookYoCookies wrote...

Versidious wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...
"Guerrila warfare ftw."

Guerilla warfare would not work against the Reapers. The Reapers have superior maneuverability, and are the attacking force. The goal of the organics is to defend their planets. If they do not, then they will go extinct - they lose the ability to reproduce, manufacture, refuel, and repair, and thus replenish their losses. Look at the state of the Migrant fleet, and consider that the Migrant Fleet largely avoids conflict and has the ability to purchase and trade to gain new ships. Now imagine that the Migrant Fleet was actively being hunted by a numerically and technologically superior foe, and had to atttack them - if it gets caught just once, it gets annihilated. The Reapers, therefore, have the greater ability to choose when and where battles actually take place. The Reapers do not have a will to break. They perform their genocidal function, reproduce, and leave.

No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. Vietnam, the Peninsula Wars, Maoist Guerillas, the list goes on. Another key difference, is that in all these cases, a single bullet can kill a Navy Seal or Napoleonic Sharpshooter almost as easily as it can kill a Spanish or Vietnamese peasant. You only need the element of surprise to win against these foes. Against the Reapers, Council navies need to attack in superior numbers, because it takes the firepower of multiple ships to overwhelm their shields. And, if you fail, then the Reaper is faster than you, and can catch you up and obliterate you. It can cut off your ability to use the relays, and laugh at your attempts at surprise attacks. And let's not forget that Reapers *can* track the stealthed Normandy, however fast she is.

Any 'victorious' engagement against the Reapers still leads to losses on our part. Any victory by the Reapers leads to a gain in resources through their harvesting techniques. In short, they have a significant advantage in attrition. They can communicate with each other near instantaneously, run away if we engage them with superior forces, and come back with friends. Guerilla tactics would be next to useless against the Reapers, and would waste military resources better suited to guarding a doomsday device.  

(@SaleemRa this is to you to, since you insist on going into specifics that would drag this f*cking conversation on for hours)


yea wow, again not my intention of : "Guerrila Warfare ftw" To Mean Guerrila Warfare will win the war. more so: "ftw" (For the win; not the literal sense, more the usual internet mindset of: "F*ck your lemons, i'd rather do it my way" ) meaning i would much rather take my chances, dragging this fight on as long as possible, taking punches and throwing my own when i can, instead of  the poorly designed/implented Plot device that is the Crucible, that is forced down upon us.

Fighting the Reapers basically means death is imminent regardlss of what you do. Putting all of your assets into one possible Super Weapon, thats never been built/used/seen before, sounds like a giant waste of f*cking time and resources that could be better spent doing other things: i.e. Fighting the Reapers. (Which is forbidden by the plot)

Im not going to waste time going into detials of specific strategies, and tactics to be used, partly because that would all change depending on the repears behavior (a Perfect example being: the miracle at Palaven), but mostly because, as i said, that would be a giant waste of  f*cking time given the crucible is now apparently our only possible means to destroying them, and thus victory...

The game shows the reapers can be decieved, they can make mistakes, they underestimate their opponents, and their Highly allergic to m92-Cains. They arent perfect, despite how much you insist they are. Does that mean a long drawn out, guerrilla style war is winnable? No.But that doesnt mean its not winnable, nor that its not worth the effort.

The existence of the Crucible, and the assurance of all the Characters around you that: "yup this is the only way to win, i have no f*cking clue what it will do-- but yup! This or we die." is what renders it obsolete.

Well, firstly, the Reapers aren't allergic to M92 Cains, their automated anti-air 'Hades Cannon' platforms, which are even smaller than destroyers, are. I personally haven't insited they're perfect, but then, they don't need to be. When they make a mistake, they can just limp off and come back stronger. When we make a mistake, we get utterly shafted. We can't run away from a winning Reaper unless they let us, because they're faster than us. We had to sacrifice a third of our Navy to allow the rest of it to escape. I've given you plenty of reasons why a guerilla war with the Reapers is untenable - we do not have any of the advantages a Guerilla force needs.

• We cannot hide from them - they have superior scanners.
• We cannot run from them - they are faster.
• We cannot harass their supply lines or destroy their morale/will to fight - they have neither.
• We cannot simply take their weapons and use it to arm ourselves, because A: Salvaging huge derelicts takes time, this is not a ground war where you can strip crates and run, and B: Because a lot of their technology will indoctrinate people in proximity to it.
• Ambushes might work occasionally, but by and large a Reaper is powerful enough that they can simply sweep us out of the way, and laugh at the notion of kill-zones, or preventing their escape (Remember ME1's "HELLO I AM A SOVEREIGN YOU ARE A CRUISER YOU ARE IN MY WAY I WILL HEADBUTT YOU AND YOU WILL DIEPLODE!") and again, they have superior speed to escape if need be.
• We cannot infiltrate their ranks to spy on them - Proximity to Reapers results in indoctrination, and in the long term, indoctrination and the ever-increasing risk of infiltration is what really makes a guerilla war untenable. Remember that the codex talks about Indoctrinated minds becoming amplifiers of the signal themselves, implying that long-term indoctrinated actually become capable of indoctrinating others slowly through proximity themselves.
• The Reapers do not have mercy, do not need our good will or cooperation. They are not only completely willing to destroy our populations unless we defend them, but that is their actual goal. If we wish to defend them, then we must attack the Reapers and attempt to defend our colonies/drive them away. If we don't, and instead try to make the Reapers come to our military, then they can indoctrinate and 'farm' our entire civilisations to produce more husks and Reapers. In other words, the longer we fight with guerilla tactics, the weaker our military becomes, and the stronger the Reapers do.

There are two key goals of any warfare method - break the enemy's will to fight, and break their ability to. You can do neither to the Reapers using Guerilla warfare.

Versidious wrote...

 No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. 

For the most part, i would argue the US beat the British pretty bad before they gave in and surrendered, but yeah i see your point... But your still assuming though, that if they kept fighting and didnt surrender they would eventually overcome the guerrila faction, which isnt true, and isnt something we could possibly know. Maybe/ Maybe not, a determined opponent is not one you want to under estimate, and fighting for the survival of your galaxy, not to mention your own, and your loved ones, etc, i cant imagine anything more motivating. 

Whats that you say? a lesser opponent overcoming adversity to achieve victory despite overwhelming odds??? BLASPHEMY!!! This has never happend before!!! Rabbe Rabble Rabble...        Ohh, Sh*t, yeah.... forgot all about Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2.. Not to mention the hundreds of RL examples that could apply here but would be for-naught; given my main point this entire time has been that..:

"The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. "

Ok, as to the British, you're wrong. First off, a lot of the Revolutionary war was *not* guerilla fighting. Most of it was done using large armies with big central camps, who would utilize skirmishing and harassing tactics a lot, especially with the Continental Militia, which is where you might be confused. Surprise, ambushes, and attacks on supply lines are not the preserve of guerilla warfare alone, and there's more to it that that besides. Secondly, and more importantly, the British *could* have continued the war, but chose not to. For example, the second British General in charge of the armed forces chose to 'honourably' let Washington's army retreat, despite having the capacity to pursue and massacre it, fearing that such an would play into rebel views of the British as ruthless tyrants, and not only make these colonies permanently ungovernable, but cause unrest in others. He was, of course, sacked in disgrace by the British government for such behaviour, but its an example of how will to fight takes such important precedence. Washington showed no such mercies, and ruthlessly exploited any weakness he could find, destroying British morale. Thusly, the Americans broke the British will to fight far more than they did their armies.

Likewise with the Americans in Vietnam. When they left Vietnam, they still had the same level of potential military power as at any point in the war. As a proportion to total national population, they had killed more of Vietnam than North Vietnam had killed of America. Their firepower could have let them annihilate all of North Vietnam. But
there were political realities that prevented them from doing so. The Americans weren't willing to keep fighting that war, so they left. Their will to fight was broken, just as with the British in the War of Independence (Again, the British could draw upon three times the numbers that the Americans could have, and brought more significant military force to bear, but they did not, because there was not sufficient support for said war back home). Numbers of personnel and materiel were still more than needed for continuing with a war, but their will to fight was not. A guerilla war makes soldiers frustrated and miserable. It prevents them from being able to fight in situations where they would win. It makes wars unpopular by showing no apparent success.
None of that works with Reapers. The Reapers are not required to meet worries of international reputation, or seeming brutal and monstrous to their citizens. They do not ever have to hold back, and their soldiers feel no fear and no mercy. We know that they have a strong will to win, because we know they've killed trillions upon trillions of beings for millions of years. They are absolute believers in their purpose, and when their back's against the wall, they will fight the **** out of you.

But let's also talk plot weapons, and overcoming seemingly impossible odds. Shepard defeats Sovereign because Sovereign had some sort of bug that shut down its shields when Shepard killed its possession of Saren, for some reason. Shepard defeats the Collectors by infiltrating their base and sabotaging their reactor. Both of those sound to me suspiciously like 'Magic off buttons which you must reach and will kill the enemy easily, and it could not have been done any other way.', which is ironic, as the Collectors certainly *could* have been fought conventionally. But, you see, Shepard has a magic plot gun that kills Reapers and their minions. And he has to be the only one with it, because otherwise it draws the story away from him. In this case, he's the only one who can find out how the Crucible works, and the only one who can activate it. In neither of these games did Shepard approach a situation by going 'OK, let's arm a big army, and duke it out together'. No, instead, Shepard's gone 'How can I hit them where it hurts, as quickly and brutally as possible.' Historically, Shepard is about enormous explosions and surgical strikes, and that's what the Crucible represents!

[TookYoCookies]

Versidious wrote...

• 1.We cannot hide from them - they have superior scanners.
• 2.We cannot run from them - they are faster.
• 3.We cannot harass their supply lines or destroy their morale/will to fight - they have neither.
• 4.We cannot simply take their weapons and use it to arm ourselves, because A: Salvaging huge derelicts takes time, this is not a ground war where you can strip crates and run, and B: Because a lot of their technology will indoctrinate people in proximity to it.
• 5.Ambushes might work occasionally, but by and large a Reaper is powerful enough that they can simply sweep us out of the way, and laugh at the notion of kill-zones, or preventing their escape (Remember ME1's "HELLO I AM A SOVEREIGN YOU ARE A CRUISER YOU ARE IN MY WAY I WILL HEADBUTT YOU AND YOU WILL DIEPLODE!") and again, they have superior speed to escape if need be.
• 6.We cannot infiltrate their ranks to spy on them - Proximity to Reapers results in indoctrination, and in the long term, indoctrination and the ever-increasing risk of infiltration is what really makes a guerilla war untenable. Remember that the codex talks about Indoctrinated minds becoming amplifiers of the signal themselves, implying that long-term indoctrinated actually become capable of indoctrinating others slowly through proximity themselves.
• 7.The Reapers do not have mercy, do not need our good will or cooperation. They are not only completely willing to destroy our populations unless we defend them, but that is their actual goal. If we wish to defend them, then we must attack the Reapers and attempt to defend our colonies/drive them away. If we don't, and instead try to make the Reapers come to our military, then they can indoctrinate and 'farm' our entire civilisations to produce more husks and Reapers. In other words, the longer we fight with guerilla tactics, the weaker our military becomes, and the stronger the Reapers do.

Haha ohh man.. This horse has been dead for so long its not even funny.. I know theres going to be no convincing you, i could write an essay longer than the OPs detailing almost every single facet of possible tactics that i could think of, no matter how viable, you wont be convinced.. But i cant resist.. Help! 

1. What about ILos?  What about anderson and coates and all the dudes in London?  What about the Asari that had to sufficate Jokers little sister in order to stay hidden?  What about the Crucible the entire time its under construction?

2. I dunno, on the galaxy map i ran from plenty of Reapers and got away just fine.  Quote Anderson: "were moving foxhole to foxhole at this point." sounds like their running, and their still alive.   Garrus orders the turians to fall back from palaven to save resources/forces for Earh, the reapers didnt catch them.


3. We dont have to, thats what you and the other guy have been forcing into Guerrila Warfare for this to work. Their
mainstays in the literal application ofcourse, but when applied in this instance, this is fine! ADAPTABILITY> "Break your enemies Will, Rawwwwwr!" We dont need to harrass supply lines, we can observe them and apply those forces to a differnt task  You know? Like adapting? Maybe liberate the prison camps EDI talks about? Hit and runs on smaller concentraions of Reaper forces, then when they get reinforced go to a different location? I dont know lol, theres lots of options, and the game only tells/shows so many.


4. Thanix Cannons?  Thanix Missels?  The Reaper Blackstar?  "Intact Reaper Weapon" War asset?  EDI has reaper code, can she indoctrinate people?


5. "The Miracle at Palaven" ???  How'd all them cute lil' Krogan and Turians get inside them to plant those NUCLEAR bombs?  Them escaping (Retreating) is not a bad thing, given WE are the ones being invaded. 


6. Haha, Again "The Miracle at Palaven"?? Thats pretty much exactly opposite what the codex said happened lol, they literally snuk inside Reaper ships (Yes! - Even Reaper Capital ships!) and planted Nuclear F*cking Bombs and blew them up from with-in!  Were the Reapers taking Naps?  I dont think Indoctrinated people would blow up their masters?


7. Who cares?!?! It's War! I could give a f*ck if my enemy has no mercy, i most certainly wont give him any, i'll more than likely go out of my way to be brutal to him in order to judge his response (Yup, even if he doesnt mind in the end)!  They dont appear to be completely willing to wipe out our entire populations,they appear to want to harvest us more than completely wipe us out.  Hence why there are still "resistances" on Earth, Palaven, Tuchanka, Sur'Kesh. The Reapers could've just 'glassed' those planets, but they didnt! Entire populations? i dunno, Anderson and Coates didnt seem indoctrinated, and they were on the defensive. There's civillians on earth trying to help other civillians (over the radio) and their not indoctrinated , and their willing to die before being indoctrinated, so im not sure if husks can come from corpses or if they have to be alive still.... but still 


hahaha ahh man. This is going to be good.

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 03 mai 2012 - 04:56 .

[Irishfafnir]

"The british troops lost the will to fight due to the constant attrition they faced, not to mention disease and supply line issues. They also were also demoralized from losing friends and comrades, these are not effects that apply to GODLIKE MACHINES that require no fuel or food as we know of and kind brainwash your buddies. "

British soldiers never really lost the will to fight, they won most of the major battles of the war, captured virtually every major port population center and still lost. And as much as as films such as "the Patriot" glorify people like Francis Marion, there role in the war was very minor. Britain essentially lost for 3 reasons, Howe thought he had already beaten Washington in 1776 and stopped chasing him past New Jersey allowing the Continental army to survive, British politicians at home gradually lost the will to carry on the war primarily as a result of....... This is the most important intervention by France,Spain, and the Dutch Republic turned the war into a global affair GB now faced the loss of territory in its more important colonies in the Caribbean and at home.

Guerrilla warfare had little to do with the success.

[JShepppp]

TookYoCookies wrote...

Versidious wrote...

• 1.We cannot hide from them - they have superior scanners.
• 2.We cannot run from them - they are faster.
• 3.We cannot harass their supply lines or destroy their morale/will to fight - they have neither.
• 4.We cannot simply take their weapons and use it to arm ourselves, because A: Salvaging huge derelicts takes time, this is not a ground war where you can strip crates and run, and B: Because a lot of their technology will indoctrinate people in proximity to it.
• 5.Ambushes might work occasionally, but by and large a Reaper is powerful enough that they can simply sweep us out of the way, and laugh at the notion of kill-zones, or preventing their escape (Remember ME1's "HELLO I AM A SOVEREIGN YOU ARE A CRUISER YOU ARE IN MY WAY I WILL HEADBUTT YOU AND YOU WILL DIEPLODE!") and again, they have superior speed to escape if need be.
• 6.We cannot infiltrate their ranks to spy on them - Proximity to Reapers results in indoctrination, and in the long term, indoctrination and the ever-increasing risk of infiltration is what really makes a guerilla war untenable. Remember that the codex talks about Indoctrinated minds becoming amplifiers of the signal themselves, implying that long-term indoctrinated actually become capable of indoctrinating others slowly through proximity themselves.
• 7.The Reapers do not have mercy, do not need our good will or cooperation. They are not only completely willing to destroy our populations unless we defend them, but that is their actual goal. If we wish to defend them, then we must attack the Reapers and attempt to defend our colonies/drive them away. If we don't, and instead try to make the Reapers come to our military, then they can indoctrinate and 'farm' our entire civilisations to produce more husks and Reapers. In other words, the longer we fight with guerilla tactics, the weaker our military becomes, and the stronger the Reapers do.

Haha ohh man.. This horse has been dead for so long its not even funny.. I know theres going to be no convincing you, i could write an essay longer than the OPs detailing almost every single facet of possible tactics that i could think of, no matter how viable, you wont be convinced.. But i cant resist.. Help! 

1. What about ILos?  What about anderson and coates and all the dudes in London?  What about the Asari that had to sufficate Jokers little sister in order to stay hidden?  What about the Crucible the entire time its under construction?

They're irrelevant. The point is that they still need to eat and stuff. After enough time, they simply won't be able to hide anymore without resources of any kind. The Reapers are patient. We knew the entire game that there was a ticking time bomb. Resources was part of it. 

The only reason those others didn't get detected was because the Reapers were more focused on harvesting who they found versus killing everyone and bringing the entire planet under their control. Anderson said as much.

2. I dunno, on the galaxy map i ran from plenty of Reapers and got away just fine.  Quote Anderson: "were moving foxhole to foxhole at this point." sounds like their running, and their still alive.   Garrus orders the turians to fall back from palaven to save resources/forces for Earh, the reapers didnt catch them.

Again, we've discounted gameplay moments because they take too many liberties. Think about it. And again, Anderson and the Turians at Palaven weren't caught by the Reapers because the Reapers were more focused on harvesting versus killing everyone. They're thorough. They have centuries. There's no rush for them.

3. We dont have to, thats what you and the other guy have been forcing into Guerrila Warfare for this to work. Their
mainstays in the literal application ofcourse, but when applied in this instance, this is fine! ADAPTABILITY> "Break your enemies Will, Rawwwwwr!" We dont need to harrass supply lines, we can observe them and apply those forces to a differnt task  You know? Like adapting? Maybe liberate the prison camps EDI talks about? Hit and runs on smaller concentraions of Reaper forces, then when they get reinforced go to a different location? I dont know lol, theres lots of options, and the game only tells/shows so many.

The point is the Reapers are too superior for any adaptation other than the Crucible, which is the manifestation of symbolic adaptation and defiance over countless cycles. Libertaing the prison camps is irrelevant because the Reapers can simply create more due to their resources. Hit and runs are also irrelevant because if the Reapers are smart, they'll eventually (if not already) group their forces together. The Turians haven't been able to carry out another successful attack like they did when the Reapers first came into their system. Going to a different location, after time, will become irrelevant because (a) there'll be nowhere with the resources for repairs and/or rebuilding and ( the Reapers will eventually very thoroughly iron out the wrinkles like they did with the Protheans. 

Three critical things are removed from the Reapers' weaknesses: Time, will/morale, and resources. We have to come up with ways to attack Reapers. Adapting to kill Reapers is the only way to do it. But the numbers tell us that we simply can't do it. They have more ships each ship is likely worth more than ours. If we split up and do hit-and-run attacks, it might work once, but the Reapers are smart and have instant communication and so will immediately group up to counter it. We don't have enough resources to successfully hit and run them all at once. 

4. Thanix Cannons?  Thanix Missels?  The Reaper Blackstar?  "Intact Reaper Weapon" War asset?  EDI has reaper code, can she indoctrinate people?

Thanix weapons will be more powerful but cannot allow us to win the war. I discussed this in the OP. The differential required from the weapons' power is huge and is big enough that they would have been included rather than practically retconned if they were still an option in ME3. Using Reaper weapons is also irrelevant in the long run because we cannot understand them enough to mass produce them and it's super unlikely we'll find one around and be able to fire them and take down Sovvys whenever we can. Not that they were that useful against Sovvys from what I remember; I don't think we found out how useful they were even against destroyers. EDI cannot indoctrinate people because Cerberus, who created her, was still trying to find out how to do that.

5. "The Miracle at Palaven" ???  How'd all them cute lil' Krogan and Turians get inside them to plant those NUCLEAR bombs?  Them escaping (Retreating) is not a bad thing, given WE are the ones being invaded. 

Krogan and Turians got in because of the moron premise. I daresay if you were a Reaper general of sorts you'd have blasted them out of the sky quickly. Only takes one shot anyways, and there are a ton of Reapers who have super advanced targeting systems. Palaven was eventually overwhelmed anyways. No amount of smart tactics can defeat such superior numbers.

The numbers have to tilt back a little bit more in our favor. Thannix canons can't give the differential we need. Since we don't have anything to give us that boost, the Crucible is the only viable long term solution.

6. Haha, Again "The Miracle at Palaven"?? Thats pretty much exactly opposite what the codex said happened lol, they literally snuk inside Reaper ships (Yes! - Even Reaper Capital ships!) and planted Nuclear F*cking Bombs and blew them up from with-in!  Were the Reapers taking Naps?  I dont think Indoctrinated people would blow up their masters?

Moron premise. 

7. Who cares?!?! It's War! I could give a f*ck if my enemy has no mercy, i most certainly wont give him any, i'll more than likely go out of my way to be brutal to him in order to judge his response (Yup, even if he doesnt mind in the end)!  They dont appear to be completely willing to wipe out our entire populations,they appear to want to harvest us more than completely wipe us out.  Hence why there are still "resistances" on Earth, Palaven, Tuchanka, Sur'Kesh. The Reapers could've just 'glassed' those planets, but they didnt! Entire populations? i dunno, Anderson and Coates didnt seem indoctrinated, and they were on the defensive. There's civillians on earth trying to help other civillians (over the radio) and their not indoctrinated , and their willing to die before being indoctrinated, so im not sure if husks can come from corpses or if they have to be alive still.... but still 

Nobody has been able to resist Reaper indoctrination unless you hold IT to be true in which case it's irrelevant as it happens at the end. The Reapers simply didn't care. 

To understand the role of the Reapers' moral code in their war, look at why the Reapers harvest. It's because they believe in the continuation of the cycle above all else. This may or may not mean the continuation of certain organic species. Preferably, yes, but otherwise, they could just obliterate anyone.

What I'm saying is that even if you somehow were able to fight the Reapers conventionally by using their harvesting delays against them (only weakness Protheans found), even if you did a lot of damage, the Reapers would realize the cycle/order was threatened (e.g. if they all died) so they'd obliterate everyone instead of harvesting. 

There's only so far you can push them until they begin to outright kill everyone without stopping for harvesting. Then it becomes, ironically, even more impossible.

hahaha ahh man. This is going to be good.

Depending on how long you draw it out, I suppose. You can come up with all the theories you want, but as long as the Reapers are as smart as us (disregarding the moron premise), we cannot win.
In order for us to conventionally beat the Reapers, they must be morons.

Modifié par JShepppp, 03 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[JShepppp]

Versidious wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

 No guerilla war has ever resulted in victory because they've actually destroyed their enemy, but because they've broken their enemy's will to fight. 

For the most part, i would argue the US beat the British pretty bad before they gave in and surrendered, but yeah i see your point... But your still assuming though, that if they kept fighting and didnt surrender they would eventually overcome the guerrila faction, which isnt true, and isnt something we could possibly know. Maybe/ Maybe not, a determined opponent is not one you want to under estimate, and fighting for the survival of your galaxy, not to mention your own, and your loved ones, etc, i cant imagine anything more motivating. 

Whats that you say? a lesser opponent overcoming adversity to achieve victory despite overwhelming odds??? BLASPHEMY!!! This has never happend before!!! Rabbe Rabble Rabble...        Ohh, Sh*t, yeah.... forgot all about Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2.. Not to mention the hundreds of RL examples that could apply here but would be for-naught; given my main point this entire time has been that..:

"The Crucible is the only way to defeat the Reapers beacuse Bioware designed it that way, and it is f*cking stupid. "

Ok, as to the British, you're wrong. First off, a lot of the Revolutionary war was *not* guerilla fighting. Most of it was done using large armies with big central camps, who would utilize skirmishing and harassing tactics a lot, especially with the Continental Militia, which is where you might be confused. Surprise, ambushes, and attacks on supply lines are not the preserve of guerilla warfare alone, and there's more to it that that besides. Secondly, and more importantly, the British *could* have continued the war, but chose not to. For example, the second British General in charge of the armed forces chose to 'honourably' let Washington's army retreat, despite having the capacity to pursue and massacre it, fearing that such an would play into rebel views of the British as ruthless tyrants, and not only make these colonies permanently ungovernable, but cause unrest in others. He was, of course, sacked in disgrace by the British government for such behaviour, but its an example of how will to fight takes such important precedence. Washington showed no such mercies, and ruthlessly exploited any weakness he could find, destroying British morale. Thusly, the Americans broke the British will to fight far more than they did their armies.

Likewise with the Americans in Vietnam. When they left Vietnam, they still had the same level of potential military power as at any point in the war. As a proportion to total national population, they had killed more of Vietnam than North Vietnam had killed of America. Their firepower could have let them annihilate all of North Vietnam. But
there were political realities that prevented them from doing so. The Americans weren't willing to keep fighting that war, so they left. Their will to fight was broken, just as with the British in the War of Independence (Again, the British could draw upon three times the numbers that the Americans could have, and brought more significant military force to bear, but they did not, because there was not sufficient support for said war back home). Numbers of personnel and materiel were still more than needed for continuing with a war, but their will to fight was not. A guerilla war makes soldiers frustrated and miserable. It prevents them from being able to fight in situations where they would win. It makes wars unpopular by showing no apparent success.

None of that works with Reapers. The Reapers are not required to meet worries of international reputation, or seeming brutal and monstrous to their citizens. They do not ever have to hold back, and their soldiers feel no fear and no mercy. We know that they have a strong will to win, because we know they've killed trillions upon trillions of beings for millions of years. They are absolute believers in their purpose, and when their back's against the wall, they will fight the **** out of you.

But let's also talk plot weapons, and overcoming seemingly impossible odds. Shepard defeats Sovereign because Sovereign had some sort of bug that shut down its shields when Shepard killed its possession of Saren, for some reason. Shepard defeats the Collectors by infiltrating their base and sabotaging their reactor. Both of those sound to me suspiciously like 'Magic off buttons which you must reach and will kill the enemy easily, and it could not have been done any other way.', which is ironic, as the Collectors certainly *could* have been fought conventionally. But, you see, Shepard has a magic plot gun that kills Reapers and their minions. And he has to be the only one with it, because otherwise it draws the story away from him. In this case, he's the only one who can find out how the Crucible works, and the only one who can activate it. In neither of these games did Shepard approach a situation by going 'OK, let's arm a big army, and duke it out together'. No, instead, Shepard's gone 'How can I hit them where it hurts, as quickly and brutally as possible.' Historically, Shepard is about enormous explosions and surgical strikes, and that's what the Crucible represents!

Very well summed up. I thought I covered this in my OP (differences between Reapers and past human wars), but you add a depth of historical analysis and general insight to it that is fresh.

Interesting to think that if killing conventionally required such massively powerful guns, then that itself would be like a "Crucible" in the sense that it takes away the idea of fighting a massively superior force, which is the main part of the war.

Modifié par JShepppp, 03 mai 2012 - 06:42 .