246 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Contradictions abound.

[SaleemRa]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Does it? 

Maybe you should play the opening mission to ME3 again. 

Oh cmon that was a scripted event, stand out of the trigger zone for an hour and that dreadnought will take shot after shot, dont even try to use that as an example.

Go and read the codex and see what it says, oh wait does that mean that the lore in the codex is not infallible? Well that just scuttles all the lore based arguments for anti matter and conventional victory then - just saying.

[SaleemRa]

a.m.p wrote...


There is also no in-universe precedent to determine that conventional victory would be impossible with the entire galaxy united fighting reapers. Because this has never happened before.

I am not saying that the writers actually meant conventional victory to be possible. They clearly didn't and clearly tried to (unsuccessfully) persuade the audience it wasn't possible. I am saying there is no lore contradicting it and lots of lore to support it, should they change their mind and fix the problem of a big chunk of their audience hating their ending by giving that chunk of the audience a fourth option.

I agree with you on the bolded part, hopefully the EC will adress these issues but there is a precedent set by the comments of both Liara and Hackett. These two are our foremost authorities on the matter outside of the codex so it makes sense to take their word for it as opposed to coming up with fan based ideas.

a.m.p wrote...

That means your going to have to attack at a tangent to earth each time, thats just silly

Why? I don't want to hit my planet, so I should probably try to not hit my planet. That is also true for that whole fleet trying to bull rush the reapers in that cutscene.

The first thing you do is go to the citadel to get help for earth that is a central premise, there is a big cut scene for it not to mention all the dialogue about getting the fleets to save earth. Saving Earth is Shep's immediate goal, defeating the reapers is his long term one, the two arent mutually exclusive.

And if they were? If you had an option to kill all reapers in Sol, who also happened to be the majority of reapers altogether but had to sacrifice Earth for it? If that was that additional conventional option? That is up to personal interpretation of the character. Maybe your Shepard would never sacrifice Earth for the galaxy. Mine, while being very concerned about Earth too, ultimately would.

No Shepard has never considered sacrificing earth, he's sacrificed the council and can not like aliens but he will never sacrifice earth. He may be your shepard but he is not you, Shepard has always been about saving the earth that cannot be disputed.

a.m.p wrote...

And how many times did that work? How many Dreadnoughts were destroyed? You seem to forget that while it takes 4 dreadnoughts to destroy a capital ship the reapers main gun one shots a dreadnought. There is a BIG BIG BIG difference between taking down a few enemy ships and winning conventionally against them. Ultimately this tactic would just mean you take some of those monsters down with you, it doesnt mean your going to win as a result.

I was pointing this bit out as an example that sovereign-class reapers do have to significantly weaken their shields when making fast turns and other fast maneuvers. I am most certainly not offering to repeat this exact scenario until all reapers die, because as you rightfully pointed out, the galactic forces would die sooner. I am saying that if they start evading the proposed FTL projectiles, they would become vulnerable to all other weapons we have.

Yes, I understand but that was also a bunch of dreadnoughts not cruisers. We already know that 4 dreadnought can take take down a Sovvy with a bit of effort. Dreadnought pack signigicantly more power (normandy not included) then any other ship class in the allied fleet, so while they might be vulnereable to dreadnought weaponry it doesnt mean that the same can be said for cruisers.

Anyway guys I've had a great time with all the great debate but i've been online waaaay too long today. Hope to continue this tomorrow!

Gnite

[a.m.p]

SaleemRa wrote...

I agree with you on the bolded part, hopefully the EC will adress these issues but there is a precedent set by the comments of both Liara and Hackett

And nothing else. So while you hope EC will solidify the unbeatable reapers premise, I'm going to keep hoping it'll give more options. The ambiguity allows for that. Let's agree to disagree.

No Shepard has never considered sacrificing earth, he's sacrificed the council and can not like aliens but he will never sacrifice earth. He may be your shepard but he is not you, Shepard has always been about saving the earth that cannot be disputed.

I think on the 'save galaxy, sacrifice Earth' or 'sacrifice Galaxy, save Earth' dilemma we can agree to disagree too. The thing that can definitely not be disputed is that Shepard has been about defeating reapers (and not agreeing with their agenda after speaing to their boss for 5 minutes).

Yes, I understand but that was also a bunch of dreadnoughts not cruisers. We already know that 4 dreadnought can take take down a Sovvy with a bit of effort. Dreadnought pack signigicantly more power (normandy not included) then any other ship class in the allied fleet, so while they might be vulnereable to dreadnought weaponry it doesnt mean that the same can be said for cruisers.

Speculations, all those speculations, so much fun they are. What is the energy output of a cruiser? What is the energy output of a thanix-equipped frigate? How many of those do we have and how many of those does it take to kill a reaper? No data, just Hackett being a defeatist.

I'd like to repeat my favourite question. Screw all the lore and speculations. Let's look at it as the art the creators claim it is. Somebody, tell me what is the message of the ME3 ending. What is the message that a conventional victory would contradict and therefore should not ever be possible?

Modifié par a.m.p, 05 mai 2012 - 06:57 .

[chemiclord]

a.m.p wrote...

 What is the message that a conventional victory would contradict and therefore should not ever be possible?

Because the writing team didn't want a conventional victory scenario.  There need not be any more reason than that.  

That there would not be a conventional victory had been asserted time after time  by Bioware itself.  You apparently bought the game anyway so you could be pissed off that they didn't provide the scenario they said would not happen.

[a.m.p]

chemiclord wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

 What is the message that a conventional victory would contradict and therefore should not ever be possible?

Because the writing team didn't want a conventional victory scenario.  There need not be any more reason than that.  

That there would not be a conventional victory had been asserted time after time  by Bioware itself.  You apparently bought the game anyway so you could be pissed off that they didn't provide the scenario they said would not happen.

Really? When? Because I thought they were saying there won't be a magical off-button.

Modifié par a.m.p, 05 mai 2012 - 07:20 .

[incinerator950]

a.m.p wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

 What is the message that a conventional victory would contradict and therefore should not ever be possible?

Because the writing team didn't want a conventional victory scenario.  There need not be any more reason than that.  

That there would not be a conventional victory had been asserted time after time  by Bioware itself.  You apparently bought the game anyway so you could be pissed off that they didn't provide the scenario they said would not happen.

Really? When? Because I thought they were saying there won't be a magical off-button.

They said you wouldn't find one.  The between the lines apparently was finding it, because building one off a Blue print that you found is completely different.

[Baryonic-Member]

The Crucible should have been a weapon that simply destroys all Mass Effect technology along with the Reapers. I'm fine with a galactic dark age, I just dun like narrative inconsistency. Teh way the Crucible worked was complete bull****. It's also symbolic cuz we didn't earn ME technology, only stood on the shoulders on giants. Yes, finally we could be free from the cycle.

When you are about to use the Crucible Harbinger (or Sovereign, who could as a plot twise uploaded its consciousness into the Citadel) should appear as a holo and plead Shepard and reveal the Reapers' intention of making a human Reaper to stop teh dark energy problem. Shepard should then choose

[SaleemRa]

incinerator950 wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

 What is the message that a conventional victory would contradict and therefore should not ever be possible?

Because the writing team didn't want a conventional victory scenario.  There need not be any more reason than that.  

That there would not be a conventional victory had been asserted time after time  by Bioware itself.  You apparently bought the game anyway so you could be pissed off that they didn't provide the scenario they said would not happen.

Really? When? Because I thought they were saying there won't be a magical off-button.

They said you wouldn't find one.  The between the lines apparently was finding it, because building one off a Blue print that you found is completely different.

Sorry I just saw this and was ROFLing +10 internets for comedy gold

[Warrior Craess]

it's rather interesting to read through this conversation. Some valid points are made, but all too often the excuse for why a conventional war (or an asymmetrical war) is un-winnable is that the writers choose not to make it. Which would be fine, if ME3 was a stand alone game. it isn't.

Say what you want about the military being inefficient, or stuck in it's ways, You should also realize that they are extremely good at breaking things, and killing people. That is their job, and if the military id lead right, their only job.

Don't think for a moment that any human military would have failed to develop mass effect tracking and targeting systems, That we would have a heavily droned military force. Or for that matter that the military wouldn't be able to recognize that fighting the British in the manner of the British would be suicide. Whomever decided that fighting that reapers required a magic off switch was lazy and has no real grasp of how warfare works.

Even with out acknowledging that the reapers are a threat no military would have sat around and done absolutely nothing in the face of how ineffective their weaponry was against sovereign. Regardless of what their civilian governments office stance was, those military's would be researching and developing a means to equalize the equation. This was actually demonstrated in game by the Thanix cannon. So why stop there? Better Armor and shield would have been developed (ohh wait those were in ME 2 also). Hardening against indoctrination would have taken place (unless a dead sovereign worked differently than the leviathan in ME2 which seems unlikely).
The process of making husks would be research in order to see if it could be reversed or negated. And the list goes on and on.

Hackett obviously agrees that the reapers are a threat, so there isn't a snowball chance that he didn't set up huge amounts of research into the ability to defeat Sovereign. So no a magic off button was never needed and they should have stuck with official statement that there wouldn't be one (finding one, and finding the plans to build one are no freaking different).

[MegaSovereign]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

                           

             http://i0.kym-cdn.co....php?1321057594



Just kidding! Can I have both? Or a combination of the two? The previous statement refers to two things in the above post.

But seriously, kudos for effort, your threads are always interesting and well planned, consise as possible it seems.

I plan on putting in some of my own to do this thread justice!

Can't breathe...lmao.

[Warrior Craess]

Baryonic-Member wrote...

The Crucible should have been a weapon that simply destroys all Mass Effect technology along with the Reapers. I'm fine with a galactic dark age, I just dun like narrative inconsistency. Teh way the Crucible worked was complete bull****. It's also symbolic cuz we didn't earn ME technology, only stood on the shoulders on giants. Yes, finally we could be free from the cycle.

When you are about to use the Crucible Harbinger (or Sovereign, who could as a plot twise uploaded its consciousness into the Citadel) should appear as a holo and plead Shepard and reveal the Reapers' intention of making a human Reaper to stop teh dark energy problem. Shepard should then choose

The reapers left the relays behind in order to predict our growth patterns. So that it would be easier for them to go around harvesting everyone. With out the threat of the reapers there is no reason developing civilization along the path of the relays is wrong. 

This is the same arguement that gun control freaks use when trying to make it illegal to own them. and it's BS. Technology isn't inherently good or bad. regardless of how you gain it. I don't recall a single mission, side companion, or main that illustrated that the council races were a threat to wipe out the galaxy do to their reckless use of mass effect tech. 

Or to illustrate my point, nuclear weapons tech was not given to us, but we sure are hell bent on making it easy to not only destroy ourselves, but the entire world as a result. Which kind of points out the idiocy that tech we didn't earn is dangerous, as it cleary demonstrates that even with tech we did earn we're more than capable of potentially abusing. 

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

I'd like to remind the thread that we're talking fictional physics, fictional sensors and fictional computing here. We have zero information on how precise the course can be calculated and how accurate our sensors are. It's fiction. All the writers had to do in this case is say that it's accurate enough. I can totally see how a 2-kilometer long fat reaper in the middle of empty space is not particularly hard to locate. And they would have a perfectly justified weapon to tip the balance of the war.

About destroying Earth.
If you look at the cutscene, you may notice that according to the codex Earth should alredy be destroyed, considering the fleet is firing directly at it with their kinetic weapons. Remember sir Isaac Newton. So I tend to disregard cutscene tactics when coming up with ideas.
In this case - don't fire your FTL projectiles at Earth. Change the approach vector.
Moreover, if killing the majority of the reapers in one battle would require destroying Earth, I'd agree to destroy Earth.

And the only way reapers can compensate for something coming at them at FTL from out of their deathbeam range - is fast evasive maneuvers. High accelerations. Which requires them to lower their mass and weaken their shields, according to the codex. Which makes them more vulnerable for all other kinds of weapons that we have.

AMP you should also remind yourself about how targeting works in ME. Its in the codex, I suggest you take a look or better yet boot up ME2 and talk to EDI about it. Telemetry is sent to the batteries, battery control dictates how the shots are fired. Rannoch and Earth already establish that long range bombardment of a reaper is difficult due interference when it comes to establishing a firing solution. So according to the fictional physics, sensors and computing capacity in universe it is still not an easy thing to do, the fiction backs this up.

According to some those shots are not kinetic rounds but rather torpedoes, of course the same issues apply but a normal torpedo self detonating is not the same as anti matter going off. One just blows up (not necessarily with all its full destructive potential) the other chain reacts once containment is lost and blows up with maximum yeild, big big difference. I do have a question for you though, how do you change your attack vector when your launching from 300k km away? Also if your close enough to see a reaper that would mean they can see you, additionally your willing to sacrifice earth then you too are playing the wrong game because saving earth is a central theme. Your doing it all to defeat the reapers AND save the earth.

Yes the reapers have to reduce their kinetic barriers to turn but and maneuver but even a destroyer on a planets surface requires a pinpoint attack to cause any damage, what makes you think the same tactic would do anything to a sovvy class? In the turian ambassadors words "we have dismmised those claims".

look fine tuning targeting isn't the problem that the ME3 writers made it out to be.  it can be solved by deveral methods.  1) put better sensors and targetting VI's (or geth programs) onto the torpedo. let the VI/geth make adjustments after it's fired. 2) targets significanlly strong Mass effect fields that don't have the proper IFF mechanism. 3) target painting by some means (like laser guided missles of today). 4) optical guidence much like todays Tv guided smart bombs. 

at the end of the day, there is only one reason why a conventional, or asymetric war couldn't be faught and won. That reaon is that whomever it was, on the development team for ME3 siad no, we're going to use the magic off button instead. And if ME3 was nothing more thana  simple stand alone shooter, that would have been completely fine.  However ME 3 isn't a stand alone game. Nor is it a simpke shooter game.  Which is why their Macguffin, and Deus ex Machina stuff doesn't work. 

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

look fine tuning targeting isn't the problem that the ME3 writers made it out to be.  it can be solved by deveral methods.  1) put better sensors and targetting VI's (or geth programs) onto the torpedo. let the VI/geth make adjustments after it's fired. 2) targets significanlly strong Mass effect fields that don't have the proper IFF mechanism. 3) target painting by some means (like laser guided missles of today). 4) optical guidence much like todays Tv guided smart bombs. 

at the end of the day, there is only one reason why a conventional, or asymetric war couldn't be faught and won. That reaon is that whomever it was, on the development team for ME3 siad no, we're going to use the magic off button instead. And if ME3 was nothing more thana  simple stand alone shooter, that would have been completely fine.  However ME 3 isn't a stand alone game. Nor is it a simpke shooter game.  Which is why their Macguffin, and Deus ex Machina stuff doesn't work. 

Came back on to check my mail b4 going to bed and saw this (keep the thread open due to FTL forums). First targetting in ME obviously isnt as easy as you make it out to be. If things were so easy to upgrade it would have needed EDI  to rewrite targetting algorithms 3x (once on horizon, rannoch and earth). Its easy to say put better sensors or VI's on something but this is the military of various different species were talking about (one of them more advance then the others) so they would have the best equipment available to them already, obviously its not enough.

As for VI's they did upgrade them in ME3, there is a conversation dedicated to this in the presidium commons. Geth despite being awesome are dependant on their numbers just as anyone else, they nees to network together inorder to be effective (dont know for sure if this changed after rannoch).

Having something target based on kinetic barrier strength relies on telemetry from sensors which has been demonstrated in game as being vulnerable to spoofing. Laser targeting or optical based systems cant be used for FTL delivery systems and need to be close enough so that it can actually see the target or not suffer from beam atennuation. Not much chance thats going to be effective considering the reapers propensity for blowing stuff up.

Lastly, yes the crucible and inability to beat the reapers was determined by the writers - its part of the plot afterall. However debating from this angle is pointless because the first of all the OP is diccussing this from an IN UNIVERSE perpective and secondly from an IN UNIVERSE perspective there is nothing to refute that conventional victory is not possible. Soveriegn only gets destroyed because its barriers short out after Shepard kills husk formerly known as Saren, the miracle at Palaven only occured due to the action of suicide bombers attacking from within the barriers, and the Turian dreadnough FTL maneuver worked because we already know that massed dreadnought fire can destroy a Sovvy class. All of this is already covered and is not being disputed but similarly such actions cannot be easily repeated.

What also cannot be refuted is that in universe all the allied fleets were getting their rear ends handed to them. The Asari - arguably the most advanced of the lot could not stem the flow, the Turians - the largest could not stem the flow, Batarians - most militant of the lot could not stem the flow, Humans could not stem the flow. Heck the single largest fleet in the galaxy - the quarians could not even take out the geth super dreadnought without resorting to Shepards boarding action and Legions generous offer to help.

The writing is flawed - not debating that there is alot of plot armor everywhere- but its also something for a different thread because this one is talking about whats happening IN UNIVERSE not what Bioware writers could do. Like I said before, the writers could give me a full auto cain if they wanted to, they would have plenty of ways to justify it, same with fighter based antimatter weapons, FTL torpedos and kamikaze ships but all of that is not IN UNIVERSE. Its like saying "the writers of scream should have made the girls smart enough not to go down a dark alley alone", in scream the girls were as dumb as bricks despite what the writers could have done.

So heres my question, can anyone give me an IN UNIVERSE example, not something the bioware writers could "act of god" that shows conventional victory being possible? So far I've seen a lot of good ideas but none of them except the antimatter torpedo stand off idea which has its own problems( range, closing speed etc ) are IN UNIVERSE and rely on a bioware "act of god" to pull off. Anyone?

[Raynulf]

SaleemRa wrote...

@Raynulf with regards to your idea on the dumbfire Anti matter FTL drone, remember ship to ship combat is not done via manual aiming, no such thing as a guy sitting behind the turret pulling the trigger. The gunner cant even see the target and relies on telemetry data from sensors which the reapers have demonstrated can be spoofed (as per rannoch and earth).

A light-second isn't very far. You can see a 2km object at that distance with an optical telescope.

And yes, that is exactly how you would feed information to the shuttle-converted-into-FTL-torpedo.

SaleemRa wrote...
So even if you were only 300k km away it would still be too far away to be effective or even accurate. You would effectively need line of sight and in that case your most likely dead before you can launch. In addition to that, what happens when you miss? Those torps would not be able to sustain containment indefinitely, how far will they travel before self detonation. If an FTL cruiser hitting a planet is devastating then anti matter warheads hitting it at FTL speeds would probably destroy it - The whole point is to stop the reapers and save earth not turn it into a cinder.

At 300,000km you have 1 second time lag, maybe 1 second FTL warm up lag (i.e. time to feed the data and trigger the shuttle/Torp) and at most 0.5s flight time assuming the shuttle went to really, really low FTL speeds for maximum accuracy in its drop-out point. So we need to predict target location 2.5 seconds ahead - and the target is very lacking in maneuverability. The magic number might not be 300K - it might be 100K (about 1.5s lead) it might even be 900K (about 5.5s lead), but those 'lead' times (anyone who's played a flight sim will understand what I mean) aren't very high at all.

Also: You don't need to HIT the reaper. You need to hit within 30km or so of the reaper. In fact: The scale of the weapon you use is largely dependant on how accurate you think you'll be. High-precision FTL dropout means you can use smaller nukes, poor precision means using bigger nukes. The joy being that the reapers uber-shields don't stop radiation, and previous games have established their hull is not really much better than our own. Fusion or antimatter bombs produce enormous bursts of radiation when they go off.


Let's put aside the silliness of the cutscene (which had Earth as a backdrop exclusively for the emotive value) and instead presume most of the fighting was done a significant ways out - as it should be if you don't want to blow up your home (not to mention: The relay is at Pluto)

How do you avoid hitting Earth? Have the FTL torpedos (aka repurposed shuttles) drop out of FTL and explode at a designated point - unlike slugs from mass accelerators, they actually can be fired 'in Earth's direction' without hitting it.

SaleemRa wrote...
I wont dismiss it as being effective when it worked but it would probably only work a couple of times before the reapers figured out the tactic and compensate for it - something that they can do.

FTL Torps cannot be dodged or intercepted, because they move faster than you can see.

The only "compensation" you can do is the same one you always used to resist blanket bombardment: Disperse to minimise losses, which in turn makes you more vulnerable to conventional tactics as you cannot concentrate fire or protect each other's flanks.


Regarding antimatter: I never mentioned fighters using it. I merely mentioned it as an alternative to nuclear warheads in the torps. I find your arguments as to why it could be a weapon in Scene A but not in Scene B to be highly speculative, and inconsistent with what the games describe as the technology of present. I admit, they could very easily have written in a codex entry as to why antimatter weapons aren't used in space battles... but they didn't.


The argument you should be using as to why FTL torpedoes cannot be viable ingame, is that the reapers don't use them against us. With the only counter I can think of being: Reapers spend 50,000 years hibernating between cycles to consere energy and resources, and do not have a manufacturing base when they return (they usually destroy most infrastructure) to support the mass production of such weapons.


And as a.m.p. has mentioned before: This is a science-fiction setting: If something can be logically explained in a manner consistent with the established story (fictional science, population, production capacity etc), then it is plausible.

[SaleemRa]

Hi Raynulf, nice post. I agree with you that FTL torpedo's aka converted shuttles can be used, what I dont agree with is its viability as a tactic. The shuttles used to do this cant be replaced due to the fact that the infrastructure to build them has been destroyed in game. I have already mentioned why those shuttles are more important and useful intact previously so I wont go into it again. So yes kamikaze shuttles can work but your only hurting yourself doing it in the long run.

Spreading out is more of an issue for us then it is the reapers flanking them would score the allies some kills but in the long run the allied fleets does not have enough Dreadnoughts to take down significant numbers before attrition starts to take its toll.

Raynulf, yes this is a scifi setting and anything that can be explained is plausible but this is only true if its is internally consistent and does not rely on "acts of god" or writer intervention. I have covered this in my post above.

[a.m.p]

SaleemRa wrote...

Hi Raynulf, nice post. I agree with you that FTL torpedo's aka converted shuttles can be used, what I dont agree with is its viability as a tactic. The shuttles used to do this cant be replaced due to the fact that the infrastructure to build them has been destroyed in game.

All of it? The entire galactic infrastructure destroyed in a few months by the same reapers that took centuries to wipe out the scattered and caught off guard protheans? Nowhere to fall back to, no backup facilities, no repurposing surviving remote ones, no evacuating the endangered ones, no building new ones?

We can built a whole new eezo refinery speicifically for the crucible project and keep it hidden/protected, but we can't build facilities to produce actual useful weapons?

Raynulf, yes this is a scifi setting and anything that can be explained is plausible but this is only true if its is internally consistent and does not rely on "acts of god" or writer intervention. I have covered this in my post above.

About writing, "act of god" and in-universe proven reaper fighting lore.

Totally stealing Raynulf's idea here and he can correct and expand it once he comes back.
ME1 established the citadel as the relay control system. Whoever holds the citadel gets to close or open any relay they wish at any time. Whoever holds the citadel gets to win the war.
This piece of lore required an "act of god" to be retconned out or forgotten. It is never brought up, it is never discussed or explained in-game. Why didn't the reapers take the citadel if they are as powerful as ME3 wants to paint them? I was told there's been some twitter explanations about how the mechanism was sabotaged after ME1 so no one could use it any more. So. We can sabotage reaper tech in such a way that they can't fix it?


@Raynulf
About reapers not using FTL projectiles themselves.
That is a very interesting question. They are taking losses in their current conquest, one would think that being so far ahead of everyone and so smart and adaptive they would adapt to large fleets of organics fighting them by employing even more destructive weapons than their death beams. But they don't. They keep shooting everyone with the beams and taking losses, counter to one of their stated goals - self-preservation.

Modifié par a.m.p, 06 mai 2012 - 01:46 .

[Elyiia]

a.m.p wrote...

SaleemRa wrote...

Hi Raynulf, nice post. I agree with you that FTL torpedo's aka converted shuttles can be used, what I dont agree with is its viability as a tactic. The shuttles used to do this cant be replaced due to the fact that the infrastructure to build them has been destroyed in game.

All of it? The entire galactic infrastructure destoryed in a few months by the same reapers that took centuries to wipe out the scattered and caught off guard protheans? Nowhere to fall back to, no backup facilities, no repurposing surviving remote ones, no evacuating the endangered ones, no building new ones?

We can built a whole new eezo refinery speicifically for the crucible project and keep it hidden/protected, but we can't build facilities to produce actual useful weapons?

Raynulf, yes this is a scifi setting and anything that can be explained is plausible but this is only true if its is internally consistent and does not rely on "acts of god" or writer intervention. I have covered this in my post above.

About writing, "act of god" and in-universe proven reaper fighting lore.

Totally stealing Raynulf's idea here and he can correct and expand it once he comes back.
ME1 established the citadel as the relay control system. Whoever holds the citadel gets to close or open any relay they wish at any time. Whoever holds the citadel gets to win the war.
This piece of lore required an "act of god" to be retconned out or forgotten. It is never brought up, it is never discussed or explained in-game. Why didn't the reapers take the citadel if they are as powerful as ME3 wants to paint them? I was told there's been some twitter explanations about how the mechanism was sabotaged after ME1 so no one could use it any more. So. We can sabotage reaper tech in such a way that they can't fix it?


@Raynulf
About reapers not using FTL projectiles themselves.
That is a very interesting question. They are taking losses in their current conquest, one would think that being so far ahead of everyone and so smart and adaptive they would adapt to large fleets of organics fighting them by employing even more destructive weapons than their death beams. But they don't. They keep shooting everyone with the beams and taking losses, counter to one of their stated goals - self-preservation.

Even if the Reaper's can't fix the sabotage, they still need the Citadel for census data. It's how they know where everything is but then this piece of information is suddenly forgotten. They don't just randomly go to each planet, they do it systematically.

[a.m.p]

Elyiia wrote...

Even if the Reaper's can't fix the sabotage,

Which is fifty kinds of ridiculous.

they still need the Citadel for census data. It's how they know where everything is but then this piece of information is suddenly forgotten. They don't just randomly go to each planet, they do it systematically.

True.

A plot that requires every sinlgle person, group and entity involved to be morons is broken and needs fixing.

An option to beat them conventionally would fix among other things this:
1) The galactic leadership being morons without a plan B.
2) Shepard being a moron and trusting their enemy.
3) Reapers being morons and ignoring the citadel. If we can beat them conventionally we can easily conclude that they didn't take the citadel at once because they could not, not because they forgot about it.

[Elyiia]

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Even if the Reaper's can't fix the sabotage,

Which is fifty kinds of ridiculous.

Almost as ridiculous as the blueprints for the crucible being the single piece of information that manages to survive every cycle.

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

look fine tuning targeting isn't the problem that the ME3 writers made it out to be.  it can be solved by deveral methods.  1) put better sensors and targetting VI's (or geth programs) onto the torpedo. let the VI/geth make adjustments after it's fired. 2) targets significanlly strong Mass effect fields that don't have the proper IFF mechanism. 3) target painting by some means (like laser guided missles of today). 4) optical guidence much like todays Tv guided smart bombs. 

at the end of the day, there is only one reason why a conventional, or asymetric war couldn't be faught and won. That reaon is that whomever it was, on the development team for ME3 siad no, we're going to use the magic off button instead. And if ME3 was nothing more thana  simple stand alone shooter, that would have been completely fine.  However ME 3 isn't a stand alone game. Nor is it a simpke shooter game.  Which is why their Macguffin, and Deus ex Machina stuff doesn't work. 

Came back on to check my mail b4 going to bed and saw this (keep the thread open due to FTL forums). First targetting in ME obviously isnt as easy as you make it out to be. If things were so easy to upgrade it would have needed EDI  to rewrite targetting algorithms 3x (once on horizon, rannoch and earth). Its easy to say put better sensors or VI's on something but this is the military of various different species were talking about (one of them more advance then the others) so they would have the best equipment available to them already, obviously its not enough.

As for VI's they did upgrade them in ME3, there is a conversation dedicated to this in the presidium commons. Geth despite being awesome are dependant on their numbers just as anyone else, they nees to network together inorder to be effective (dont know for sure if this changed after rannoch).

Having something target based on kinetic barrier strength relies on telemetry from sensors which has been demonstrated in game as being vulnerable to spoofing. Laser targeting or optical based systems cant be used for FTL delivery systems and need to be close enough so that it can actually see the target or not suffer from beam atennuation. Not much chance thats going to be effective considering the reapers propensity for blowing stuff up.

Lastly, yes the crucible and inability to beat the reapers was determined by the writers - its part of the plot afterall. However debating from this angle is pointless because the first of all the OP is diccussing this from an IN UNIVERSE perpective and secondly from an IN UNIVERSE perspective there is nothing to refute that conventional victory is not possible. Soveriegn only gets destroyed because its barriers short out after Shepard kills husk formerly known as Saren, the miracle at Palaven only occured due to the action of suicide bombers attacking from within the barriers, and the Turian dreadnough FTL maneuver worked because we already know that massed dreadnought fire can destroy a Sovvy class. All of this is already covered and is not being disputed but similarly such actions cannot be easily repeated.

What also cannot be refuted is that in universe all the allied fleets were getting their rear ends handed to them. The Asari - arguably the most advanced of the lot could not stem the flow, the Turians - the largest could not stem the flow, Batarians - most militant of the lot could not stem the flow, Humans could not stem the flow. Heck the single largest fleet in the galaxy - the quarians could not even take out the geth super dreadnought without resorting to Shepards boarding action and Legions generous offer to help.

The writing is flawed - not debating that there is alot of plot armor everywhere- but its also something for a different thread because this one is talking about whats happening IN UNIVERSE not what Bioware writers could do. Like I said before, the writers could give me a full auto cain if they wanted to, they would have plenty of ways to justify it, same with fighter based antimatter weapons, FTL torpedos and kamikaze ships but all of that is not IN UNIVERSE. Its like saying "the writers of scream should have made the girls smart enough not to go down a dark alley alone", in scream the girls were as dumb as bricks despite what the writers could have done.

So heres my question, can anyone give me an IN UNIVERSE example, not something the bioware writers could "act of god" that shows conventional victory being possible? So far I've seen a lot of good ideas but none of them except the antimatter torpedo stand off idea which has its own problems( range, closing speed etc ) are IN UNIVERSE and rely on a bioware "act of god" to pull off. Anyone?

my point is that lazy writing, and a lack of willingness to research how any military would respond to things is the reason we get a unwinnable conventional/asymetric war, even though the lore demonstrates that the reapers can be defeated in combat. 

As for how difficult targetting apperantly is in ME. Thats pretty much plot device from the writers in the first place. As a counter point for how tough it is and the required use of EDI.. I'll counter with the amount of time it took EDI to actually make those adjustments.  EDI fixed the targeting issue on Horizon in just a few seconds.. You had to defend it while they powered up, not while she labored through Pi to the 50 trillionth spot.  On Rannoch you used a laser targeting system to coordinate attacks from space. and had pretty much the only person (AI) you trusted to be sure not to nuke you in the process. Unless you suddenly think Han'Garel is going to play nice?  And the missles from on earth?  just horrid writing.  guess they forgot about the target designator that you had on Rannoch.. now we're back to targeting via (radar, heat whatever something easily spoofed).  Sorry but I can come to no other conclusion than that targeting difficulties present in ME are due to plot armor. Which bring us back to the point that a conventional/asymetrical war could have been fought, with a resonable chance to win. 

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Having something target based on kinetic barrier strength relies on telemetry from sensors which has been demonstrated in game as being vulnerable to spoofing. Laser targeting or optical based systems cant be used for FTL delivery systems and need to be close enough so that it can actually see the target or not suffer from beam atennuation. Not much chance thats going to be effective considering the reapers propensity for blowing stuff up.

Ok so explain that one too me?  given enough distance away, even something travelling at FTL can "see" things. suicidal transports don't have to be moving at 12LY a day speed in order to be effective.  So long as the target is lazed sufficiently in advance it would still designate a target.  Ships have to be able to detect objects in their paths, or there would be some rather spectacular explosions.  For that matter a 30KT rod flying at 0.9C would be devestating as heck. So it's not like you truly have to get a Lightspeed in order to be effective. 

Beam atennuation can also be addressed by tigher lensing. Or you send out hundreds of your own little Oculi laser designators and have them all paint the target. That way no one would care if the reapers even destroyed 96% of them. 

Again the point is if you think about this for even a few moments, that there is a way for a conventional military style war to be waged. That this is never even looked at is poor writing. 

[SaleemRa]

a.m.p wrote...

All of it? The entire galactic infrastructure destroyed in a few months by the same reapers that took centuries to wipe out the scattered and caught off guard protheans? Nowhere to fall back to, no backup facilities, no repurposing surviving remote ones, no evacuating the endangered ones, no building new ones?

We can built a whole new eezo refinery speicifically for the crucible project and keep it hidden/protected, but we can't build facilities to produce actual useful weapons?

Hi AMP
Why not, industrial facilities are the first thing that they hit and the reapers hit core wordls first, Kashan, Earth Palavan, Illium. They werent just sitting around not doing anything. They would have also had access to indoctrinated agents that could have divulged locations of these production facilities. The crucible did not require a new eezo plant to be made, it is entirely possible that it was one of the first things that hacket grabbed when he went to ground. 

Additionally all possible resources are being poured into the crucible because the powers that be BELIEVE that it is their best chance. Remember from an IN UNIVERSE POV they know a lot more then anyone playing the game. If they say its what they need then they know best.

a.m.p wrote...

Raynulf, yes this is a scifi setting and anything that can be explained is plausible but this is only true if its is internally consistent and does not rely on "acts of god" or writer intervention. I have covered this in my post above.

About writing, "act of god" and in-universe proven reaper fighting lore.

Totally stealing Raynulf's idea here and he can correct and expand it once he comes back.
ME1 established the citadel as the relay control system. Whoever holds the citadel gets to close or open any relay they wish at any time. Whoever holds the citadel gets to win the war.
This piece of lore required an "act of god" to be retconned out or forgotten. It is never brought up, it is never discussed or explained in-game. Why didn't the reapers take the citadel if they are as powerful as ME3 wants to paint them? I was told there's been some twitter explanations about how the mechanism was sabotaged after ME1 so no one could use it any more. So. We can sabotage reaper tech in such a way that they can't fix it?

My idea on why they didnt bother taking the citadel in the first place is the fact that they dont need it.

• As a Mass Relay it too late to use they are already in system
• Census data - they probably already have it from their good friends TIM and the Hanar embassador not to mention the late great Saren.
• Locking down the relay's - irrelevant. Locking it down the network implies that the reapers are worried about taking everyone on at once, they wont they just didnt care. Without the Crucible they would have won in the long run doesnt matter if it took then 1000 years to do it they would. In fact a pitched battle would have probably worked in their favour. Remember despite what you want there are NO kamikaze antimatter FTL shuttles in the game.
• Cant fix something that has been destroyed or completely dismantled
• Entirely possible that the Catalyst wanted to see how things would turn out and left instructions to leave the Citadel alone, afterall this cycle did manage to delay the invasion and prevent the opening of the citadel relay when Sov attacked it. A mighty feat in its own right  considering that everything was in its favour.
• Shepard is a known quantity, possible that the Catalyst wanted to study Shepard more, remember Shepard spends a lot of time on the citadel.

Thats it for now

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ok so explain that one too me?  given enough distance away, even something travelling at FTL can "see" things. suicidal transports don't have to be moving at 12LY a day speed in order to be effective.  So long as the target is lazed sufficiently in advance it would still designate a target.  Ships have to be able to detect objects in their paths, or there would be some rather spectacular explosions.  For that matter a 30KT rod flying at 0.9C would be devestating as heck. So it's not like you truly have to get a Lightspeed in order to be effective. 

Beam atennuation can also be addressed by tigher lensing. Or you send out hundreds of your own little Oculi laser designators and have them all paint the target. That way no one would care if the reapers even destroyed 96% of them. 

Again the point is if you think about this for even a few moments, that there is a way for a conventional military style war to be waged. That this is never even looked at is poor writing. 

Simple if your travelling faster then light how will you be able to percieve it. The light blue shifts into spectrums that are not visible, therefore optical system wont work.

Tighter lensing and tiny occuli? Oookay, how are we supposed to get this tighter lensing? Dont you think that a military force or for that matter the various military forces in the universe would already be using the best stuff available. You can simply continuosly improve something, it will eventually reach a point of diminishing returns.

Tiny occuli? I know you dont mean reaper style occuli so I'm not going to go there but there is this aspect - even if you could get sensors in system to relay that data what makes you think the reapers will just sit there and let them go along their bussiness unmolested? They would be able to detect and jam the telemetry data they are trying to send. You could probably get a few in before they got smart but then what?

[Hakuthehedgehog]

I'm sorry to skim the whole thread, but the whole FTL kamikaze ships idea is stupid: F= m.a , and since ships only fly at FTL speeds because their mass is lowered, the force stays the same, not to mention the reaper might be on the move while in battle and the ships might just crash land on a planet.

Also, considering that the strenght of a kinetic barrier is single high powered shots, I doubt a single ship would destroy a reaper.

These are my two cents, feel free to share your opinions!