246 réponses à ce sujet

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Hi Raynulf, nice post. I agree with you that FTL torpedo's aka converted shuttles can be used, what I dont agree with is its viability as a tactic. The shuttles used to do this cant be replaced due to the fact that the infrastructure to build them has been destroyed in game. I have already mentioned why those shuttles are more important and useful intact previously so I wont go into it again. So yes kamikaze shuttles can work but your only hurting yourself doing it in the long run.

Spreading out is more of an issue for us then it is the reapers flanking them would score the allies some kills but in the long run the allied fleets does not have enough Dreadnoughts to take down significant numbers before attrition starts to take its toll.

Raynulf, yes this is a scifi setting and anything that can be explained is plausible but this is only true if its is internally consistent and does not rely on "acts of god" or writer intervention. I have covered this in my post above.

in truth the reaper have no reason to fight any significant distance away from a planet. which means a much smaller allowance for error. doesn't mean it can't be done though. 

What I really want to respond to is this though

Raynulf, yes this is a scifi setting and anything that can be explained is plausible but this is only true if its is internally consistent and does not rely on "acts of god" or writer intervention. I have covered this in my post above.

Sadly the inability to fight and win a conventional war (at least at ending of ME2) is nothing more than an "act of god" We find legion, because we go to a reaper hull that was "killed" by a huge cannon. We found the impact canyon of it's shot which lead us to the leviathan. So why did we never track down the cannon that killed it? As demonstrated by the abundance of Promethean ruins it's not like the Reapers remove all traces of previously civilizations.

Why couldn't we take the Husk jamming signal with us? I don't recall ever destroying that information. And while Miranda killed her father (before we could get it from him), we did then raid TIM's hide out. I'm pretty sure that that info was in there somewhere. Or heck would could have captured a few Cerberus Soldiers and figured out how they were being controlled on our own.

Why couldn't we pull a page out of the Quarrian's book and outfit transports or cargo ships with drednaught main guns?  Sure eggssheels with hammers, but When the situation is desperate..... 

You want us to prove that the reapers can lose a conventional war. You want us to not use the lore in game that states that reapers can be defeated, which means you want to limit us to an argument that only proves your point. 

Here the fact. In game there is lore that demonstrates that reapers can be killed. This is the only fact that matters as far as the validity of being able to fight a conventional war is concerned.  Reapers can be killed.  Everything else we've argued is nothing more than possible means of waging that war. Not the ability to wage it. 

if at the end of the war there are only a few million of each species, but all the reapers are dead, then that is a win. talk about bitter sweat. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 06 mai 2012 - 11:06 .

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ok so explain that one too me?  given enough distance away, even something travelling at FTL can "see" things. suicidal transports don't have to be moving at 12LY a day speed in order to be effective.  So long as the target is lazed sufficiently in advance it would still designate a target.  Ships have to be able to detect objects in their paths, or there would be some rather spectacular explosions.  For that matter a 30KT rod flying at 0.9C would be devestating as heck. So it's not like you truly have to get a Lightspeed in order to be effective. 

Beam atennuation can also be addressed by tigher lensing. Or you send out hundreds of your own little Oculi laser designators and have them all paint the target. That way no one would care if the reapers even destroyed 96% of them. 

Again the point is if you think about this for even a few moments, that there is a way for a conventional military style war to be waged. That this is never even looked at is poor writing. 

Simple if your travelling faster then light how will you be able to percieve it. The light blue shifts into spectrums that are not visible, therefore optical system wont work.

Tighter lensing and tiny occuli? Oookay, how are we supposed to get this tighter lensing? Dont you think that a military force or for that matter the various military forces in the universe would already be using the best stuff available. You can simply continuosly improve something, it will eventually reach a point of diminishing returns.

Tiny occuli? I know you dont mean reaper style occuli so I'm not going to go there but there is this aspect - even if you could get sensors in system to relay that data what makes you think the reapers will just sit there and let them go along their bussiness unmolested? They would be able to detect and jam the telemetry data they are trying to send. You could probably get a few in before they got smart but then what?

Therefore visible light optics wouldn't work. Energy is still transmitted. It can still be percieved if the blueshifting is acounted for.  Which shouldn't take a whole lot of work. 

Tigher lensing could be achieve via mass effect fields in stead of optical lensing. However that isn't really needed for laser disignators in space, as the attnuation comes from the atomosphere or exceptionally long distances. 


pulled from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_optical_communication
In outer space, the communication range of free-space optical communication is currently in the order of several thousand kilometers,[6] but has the potential to bridge interplanetary distances of millions of kilometers, using optical telescopes as beam expanders.[7] The distance records for optical communications involved detection and emission of laser light by space probes. A two-way distance record for communication was set by the Mercury laser altimeter instrument aboard the MESSENGER[/i] spacecraft. This infrared diode neodymium laser, designed as a laser altimeter for a Mercury orbit mission, was able to communicate across a distance of 15 million miles (24 million km), as the craft neared Earth on a fly-by in May, 2005. The previous record had been set with a one-way detection of laser light from Earth, by the Galileo probe, as two ground-based lasers were seen from 6 million km by the out-bound probe, in 1992.[8]  

Which kinda means that attenuation isn't going to be that big of a problem. 

As for the problem of the Oculi being shot down. Again we're talking of maybe needing the ability to survive for 15 seconds before the FTL missile arrives.  Given enough drones with laser designators that is well with in reach. 

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Sadly the inability to fight and win a conventional war (at least at ending of ME2) is nothing more than an "act of god" We find legion, because we go to a reaper hull that was "killed" by a huge cannon. We found the impact canyon of it's shot which lead us to the leviathan. So why did we never track down the cannon that killed it? As demonstrated by the abundance of Promethean ruins it's not like the Reapers remove all traces of previously civilizations.

It was found or at least what remained of it TIM said as much

Warrior Craess wrote...
Why couldn't we take the Husk jamming signal with us? I don't recall ever destroying that information. And while Miranda killed her father (before we could get it from him), we did then raid TIM's hide out. I'm pretty sure that that info was in there somewhere. Or heck would could have captured a few Cerberus Soldiers and figured out how they were being controlled on our own.

Who said it wasnt but that only serves to help ground assault, the Reapers themselves arent husks. Also as stated in game the signal is short range only. Cerberus soldiers explode via occular flashbangs it mentioned in game.

Warrior Craess wrote...
Why couldn't we pull a page out of the Quarrian's book and outfit transports or cargo ships with drednaught main guns?  Sure eggssheels with hammers, but When the situation is desperate.....

Why not, might even take down a few. They wont be any good in a pitched battle though or even ambush situations, one hit and its toast.

Warrior Craess wrote...
You want us to prove that the reapers can lose a conventional war. You want us to not use the lore in game that states that reapers can be defeated, which means you want to limit us to an argument that only proves your point.

No I asked people to explain a conventional victory using ONLY the stuff actually found in game not what writers could add. Just because lore says we have anti matter doesn not mean it can be weaponized in the way you want it to be. In fact nothing in game suggest that its possible. Just because 4 dreadnought can destroy a sovvy class doesnt mean they will survive the engagement or even inflict significant casualties. Using the lore that exist and the situations IN UNIVERSE show me how a conventional victory is possible?

Warrior Craess wrote...
Here the fact. In game there is lore that demonstrates that reapers can be killed. This is the only fact that matters as far as the validity of being able to fight a conventional war is concerned.  Reapers can be killed.  Everything else we've argued is nothing more than possible means of waging that war. Not the ability to wage it. 

if at the end of the war there are only a few million of each species, but all the reapers are dead, then that is a win. talk about bitter sweat. 

Never said they were unkillable but theres a lot of difference between waging a war and taking acceptable losses as compared to being slaughtered wholesale while we manage to get a few kills in.

[Pelle6666]

It's a sci-fi game! They could have come up with any other way of defeating the reapers, especially since they rely on space magic to do the trick anyway!

[Warrior Craess]

Additionally all possible resources are being poured into the crucible because the powers that be BELIEVE that it is their best chance. Remember from an IN UNIVERSE POV they know a lot more then anyone playing the game. If they say its what they need then they know best.

Which is all nothing more than plot armor for the reapers. It requires that all the leaders of all council races buy into the fact that Sovereign was a completely unique ship, which could never in a hundred years be rebuilt. It requires that no research was done into the conduit after Shepard and crew uses it to save the councils ass. It requires that Hackett doesn't really believe what Shepard has been saying. Otherwise Hackett has to be the dumbest Sr Naval officer in the history of the galaxy.

So lets stay away from the requirement of proving stuff based on in game lore alright? Because we all know it's been retconned to hell and back in order to fit the artistic integrity of ME3.

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa regardless of who invincible the reapers are or are not in space. once they hit Atmosphere or land then they are very vulnerable. They need Husks from the various races in order to actually be able to control the planets that they attack.

You can not hold ground with just an air-force. So the ability to jam their husk control signal is extremely important because it forces reapers to actually get down ground-side themselves.

Simple fact of warfare. Especially if you goal isn't to just obliterate everything.

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Therefore visible light optics wouldn't work. Energy is still transmitted. It can still be percieved if the blueshifting is acounted for.  Which shouldn't take a whole lot of work. 

Tigher lensing could be achieve via mass effect fields in stead of optical lensing. However that isn't really needed for laser disignators in space, as the attnuation comes from the atomosphere or exceptionally long distances. 


pulled from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_optical_communication
In outer space, the communication range of free-space optical communication is currently in the order of several thousand kilometers,[6] but has the potential to bridge interplanetary distances of millions of kilometers, using optical telescopes as beam expanders.[7] The distance records for optical communications involved detection and emission of laser light by space probes. A two-way distance record for communication was set by the Mercury laser altimeter instrument aboard the MESSENGER[/i] spacecraft. This infrared diode neodymium laser, designed as a laser altimeter for a Mercury orbit mission, was able to communicate across a distance of 15 million miles (24 million km), as the craft neared Earth on a fly-by in May, 2005. The previous record had been set with a one-way detection of laser light from Earth, by the Galileo probe, as two ground-based lasers were seen from 6 million km by the out-bound probe, in 1992.[8]  

Which kinda means that attenuation isn't going to be that big of a problem. 

As for the problem of the Oculi being shot down. Again we're talking of maybe needing the ability to survive for 15 seconds before the FTL missile arrives.  Given enough drones with laser designators that is well with in reach. 

Good link there Warrior definitely soves the issue of beam atenuation, but those systems arent being used to send telemetry and targetting information (note not saying they cant but they arent). They are also point to point, light moves in a straight line It even if your occuli could get close enough to laze the target accurately it would still have to relay that information to the shuttle of other ships so that that data can be relayed. that would be a whole lot harder to do especially taking into consideration drift, vibration and a whole lot of other things that could interfere with its communication.

Per your assumption that if we take the blueshifting into account we can figure it out I have to say its rather naive. In order for something to be figured out they have to identify whats the problem and whats causing it. By your logic we should already be able to send manned missions to other planets in our solar system. We have the tech, we can just figure it out - no even if we could figure it out how long would it take for us to do so. Just because we want something bad enough doesnt mean its going to happen.

Remember in game there isnt enough time. No one believes the reapers are coming and even if they do they have no idea just how much they surpass their estimates. When the reapers hit Batarian space, it took a while before the first reports filed in. I'm sure everyone was confidant in their own ability to repel them until after the fact. Kamikaze ships would not have been developed because they would have felt that there was no need for it, after all they have powerful ships of their own surely they can handle it.

There is no time scale in the game. How much time passes after Shepard leaves earth? Days? Weeks? Months? A month? We dont really know, we do know that there isnt a lot of time. With everyone who could have thought about making suicide shuttles working on the Crucible who would have time to think of something like that let alone get the additional stuff needed for its production all while working on the crucible? I dont doubt that if the crucible failed alternative ideas would have been pursued, I dont believe that they would have worked in the long run though.

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Which is all nothing more than plot armor for the reapers. It requires that all the leaders of all council races buy into the fact that Sovereign was a completely unique ship, which could never in a hundred years be rebuilt. It requires that no research was done into the conduit after Shepard and crew uses it to save the councils ass. It requires that Hackett doesn't really believe what Shepard has been saying. Otherwise Hackett has to be the dumbest Sr Naval officer in the history of the galaxy.

So lets stay away from the requirement of proving stuff based on in game lore alright? Because we all know it's been retconned to hell and back in order to fit the artistic integrity of ME3.

What are you talking about, Hackett lead the failed defense of arcturus, he faced the reapers head on of course he would know more in game. Additionally Alliance techs studies the data that liara game them, Hackett would not have made the decision on his own, just because you dont see it happens does not mean you otherwise.

Whose to say they didnt research the conduit or Sovvy's dead corpse. Fact is they have as evident in ME2 and 3. Thanix was based of reaper tech, EDI was based of reaper tech. Just because they could unravel some of the mysteries does not mean that they could unravel everything!

Yes the game has been retconned so using the retconned data show me a conventional victory is possible! Plot armor is not an argument you can use becase it will always be there. Point to other things IN UNIVERSE that can achieve total victory against the reapers?

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Sadly the inability to fight and win a conventional war (at least at ending of ME2) is nothing more than an "act of god" We find legion, because we go to a reaper hull that was "killed" by a huge cannon. We found the impact canyon of it's shot which lead us to the leviathan. So why did we never track down the cannon that killed it? As demonstrated by the abundance of Promethean ruins it's not like the Reapers remove all traces of previously civilizations.

It was found or at least what remained of it TIM said as much

Warrior Craess wrote...
Why couldn't we take the Husk jamming signal with us? I don't recall ever destroying that information. And while Miranda killed her father (before we could get it from him), we did then raid TIM's hide out. I'm pretty sure that that info was in there somewhere. Or heck would could have captured a few Cerberus Soldiers and figured out how they were being controlled on our own.

Who said it wasnt but that only serves to help ground assault, the Reapers themselves arent husks. Also as stated in game the signal is short range only. Cerberus soldiers explode via occular flashbangs it mentioned in game.

Warrior Craess wrote...
Why couldn't we pull a page out of the Quarrian's book and outfit transports or cargo ships with drednaught main guns?  Sure eggssheels with hammers, but When the situation is desperate.....

Why not, might even take down a few. They wont be any good in a pitched battle though or even ambush situations, one hit and its toast.

Warrior Craess wrote...
You want us to prove that the reapers can lose a conventional war. You want us to not use the lore in game that states that reapers can be defeated, which means you want to limit us to an argument that only proves your point.

No I asked people to explain a conventional victory using ONLY the stuff actually found in game not what writers could add. Just because lore says we have anti matter doesn not mean it can be weaponized in the way you want it to be. In fact nothing in game suggest that its possible. Just because 4 dreadnought can destroy a sovvy class doesnt mean they will survive the engagement or even inflict significant casualties. Using the lore that exist and the situations IN UNIVERSE show me how a conventional victory is possible?

Warrior Craess wrote...
Here the fact. In game there is lore that demonstrates that reapers can be killed. This is the only fact that matters as far as the validity of being able to fight a conventional war is concerned.  Reapers can be killed.  Everything else we've argued is nothing more than possible means of waging that war. Not the ability to wage it. 

if at the end of the war there are only a few million of each species, but all the reapers are dead, then that is a win. talk about bitter sweat. 

Never said they were unkillable but theres a lot of difference between waging a war and taking acceptable losses as compared to being slaughtered wholesale while we manage to get a few kills in.

Yes, we can't use the miracle of prelavvan or the turian tactic to demonstrate that it can be won. Which conviently are the opnly times other than shepard's actions that repaers are killed. 

Sorry to say it but you really are trying to force everyone into thinking as you do. You're not even open to the idea that those two instances demonstrate the possiblity of victory. Nope you'd rather just say well this is what we get, so just live with it. 

so why should anyone take your points seriously? 

ME1 lore has already demonstrated that Anti-matter was weaponized but you refuse to admit it.
You refused to play by the same rules you want everyone else to play by. We need to show something other that the miracle, or the space battle in which several reapers were killed by turians to prove that a conventional war can be won. Yet you fail to abide by the same thing.  We point out time after time where the are contridictions in the lore and the supposed fact that a war in not possible. 

Here is the thing about war. You never know how it's going to turn out until you fight it. If you have to fight it though, you fight it.

And yes I'd rather have the galaxy lose 99% of it's population than suffer the BS that is the catalyst. 

So here's my challange to you. Not counting ME3 lore (which is mostly all BS anyway), demonstrate to me how a conventional war isn't winnable? 

From where I stand it sure seems possible.

1) With no upgrades a frigate (yes the Normady is a frigate not a cruiser) is able to defeat the collectors ship which is roughly a cruiser in firepower). yes it gets hurt badly, and several people die.  However with just missles the Normandy is victorious over reaper tech based ship. With improved armor, weaponry, and shielding it isn't even a fight. All the real damage is done by the Ocular weapon.

2) With out husks the reapers can not control worlds. They can not force people to come to their indoctrination camps with ou becoming vulnerable to the suicide nuclear attacks. 

3) With out plot armor screwing up simple optical targeting (really the missiles couldn't get a visual lock on the reaper? WTF?) Reapers can be killed with something other than suicidal backpack nukes.

4) Reapers can be killed in space if new an unusual tactics are used. Doesn't matter if they are tactics of desperation, or if they use glass cannons (like cargo ships with drednaught guns), they work. Even if it's only a few times before a new tactic is required. They work. Then you come up with something new. 


All of which leave me with no choice but to subscribe to the idea that the only reason reapers can not be defeated, is because thats the way they wanted this story to go. If instead of a stupid magi off button they had wanted us to fight it out, and for EMS and our choices to make a difference then they could have.  In fact they should have. 

So you say that reapers can not lose a conventional war, I say strip away their plot armor and they most certainly could. 

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Which is all nothing more than plot armor for the reapers. It requires that all the leaders of all council races buy into the fact that Sovereign was a completely unique ship, which could never in a hundred years be rebuilt. It requires that no research was done into the conduit after Shepard and crew uses it to save the councils ass. It requires that Hackett doesn't really believe what Shepard has been saying. Otherwise Hackett has to be the dumbest Sr Naval officer in the history of the galaxy.

So lets stay away from the requirement of proving stuff based on in game lore alright? Because we all know it's been retconned to hell and back in order to fit the artistic integrity of ME3.

What are you talking about, Hackett lead the failed defense of arcturus, he faced the reapers head on of course he would know more in game. Additionally Alliance techs studies the data that liara game them, Hackett would not have made the decision on his own, just because you dont see it happens does not mean you otherwise.

Whose to say they didnt research the conduit or Sovvy's dead corpse. Fact is they have as evident in ME2 and 3. Thanix was based of reaper tech, EDI was based of reaper tech. Just because they could unravel some of the mysteries does not mean that they could unravel everything!

Yes the game has been retconned so using the retconned data show me a conventional victory is possible! Plot armor is not an argument you can use becase it will always be there. Point to other things IN UNIVERSE that can achieve total victory against the reapers?

Really  it was the failed defence of acturus that cuased him to not research new weapons once Sovy made his presence known? It washis facing them head on that required him to ignore all the information that Shepard provides him from ME2 when he turns over the Normandy? 

And we have pointed to things in game, you just refuse to accept them. 

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

SaleemRa regardless of who invincible the reapers are or are not in space. once they hit Atmosphere or land then they are very vulnerable. They need Husks from the various races in order to actually be able to control the planets that they attack.

You can not hold ground with just an air-force. So the ability to jam their husk control signal is extremely important because it forces reapers to actually get down ground-side themselves.

Simple fact of warfare. Especially if you goal isn't to just obliterate everything.

No they are not very vulnerable, they are more vulnerable yes but not very vulnerable. They still couldnt bombard the one guarding the beam on earth, still took EDI having to rewrite targeting alogorhythms AND it still took Shepard to knock its barriers down with a well placed Thanix missile. That does not spell vulnerable to me.

Warrior, between horizon, cerberus base and earth assault when would Hammer have the time to get the husk jamming tech into place? Maybe they tried to but most of the shuttles got shot down. Seriously your arguments have as many holes in it as Biowares writing.

I have a question since we all like to talk about what the writers COULD have down. Why didnt the reapers just approach civilizations all friendly like? Surely since indoc is just that good they could have won without firing a shot. Send sovvy and a couple of others to go make nice, forget about Saren and the geth. Get all the leaders indoctrinated when you invite them to tour the facilities and dinner. Then park themselves in major cities as an attraction for all to behold all the while subtly indoctrinating them. Yeah the writers could have done that coulndt they, you dont see me arguing for it though - Keep it IN UNIVERSE!

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa, if we wanted to would could have sent manned missions to other planets. We actually have that technical ability. We don't have the political stones to do it though. Which is a whole different conversation.

Blueshifting is nothing more than a change in frequency. How much of a change depends on how fast the objects are traveling. if this is a known factor then Blue shift changed in data can relatively easily be accounted for. Would there be some issues with it? Of course, and it would take someone with a better understanding of math than I to figure it out. But I'm also sure thatt hey could figure it out.

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

SaleemRa regardless of who invincible the reapers are or are not in space. once they hit Atmosphere or land then they are very vulnerable. They need Husks from the various races in order to actually be able to control the planets that they attack.

You can not hold ground with just an air-force. So the ability to jam their husk control signal is extremely important because it forces reapers to actually get down ground-side themselves.

Simple fact of warfare. Especially if you goal isn't to just obliterate everything.

No they are not very vulnerable, they are more vulnerable yes but not very vulnerable. They still couldnt bombard the one guarding the beam on earth, still took EDI having to rewrite targeting alogorhythms AND it still took Shepard to knock its barriers down with a well placed Thanix missile. That does not spell vulnerable to me.

Warrior, between horizon, cerberus base and earth assault when would Hammer have the time to get the husk jamming tech into place? Maybe they tried to but most of the shuttles got shot down. Seriously your arguments have as many holes in it as Biowares writing.

I have a question since we all like to talk about what the writers COULD have down. Why didnt the reapers just approach civilizations all friendly like? Surely since indoc is just that good they could have won without firing a shot. Send sovvy and a couple of others to go make nice, forget about Saren and the geth. Get all the leaders indoctrinated when you invite them to tour the facilities and dinner. Then park themselves in major cities as an attraction for all to behold all the while subtly indoctrinating them. Yeah the writers could have done that coulndt they, you dont see me arguing for it though - Keep it IN UNIVERSE!

As I've said before, all the issues the we have in ME3 with targeting are really nothing more than plot armor for the reapers.  From the thanix missile launcher the reaper is clear as day. A simple optical targeting system is all thats needed, and yet that oddly fails. Why does it fail?  So you get the pleasure of having the stress of defeating an endless wave of various husks in order to launch the next set.  Yes they used official sounding langauge but in the end that is the only reason that the first set of missiles misses. 

it's not like the reaper tried to move out of the way... so a simple crosshair and trigger should have been all that was needed. But no we get some issues with targetting algorhythms that need adjusting.  Thats why I can't help but feel that our inability to shoot straight is plot armor. Might also have to do with the fact that I served in the military and know just how easy it would have been to actually hit a 150km tall object with missles that  are maybe 10 meters in length. 

[richard_rider]

Losing conventionally would've been more welcome then what we have now.

EMS would've mattered, and we may have been able to see some actual battles on ground and in space.

[Warrior Craess]

Sorry can't keep my arguments related to in universe because the rules of said universe changed from ME1 and 2 to ME3 so that they could give us a magic off button.

If ME3 was a stand alone game, that required you to save the galaxy from a terrible undefeatable foe by using the Crucible, then fine, I actually would have enjoyed the heck out of it.

however ME1/2 exist. I can not unplay them. I can not forget that things like anti-matter weapons exist.

[EnerPrime]

The one major problem I see with all these rationales for one side or another on the "do we need the crucible" issue is that they all rely on the codex. The same codex that is explicitly an in-game source written in-universe. It's as reliable as wikipedia if it had to have content that was acceptable to every UN government. This is the same Codex that claimed Soverign was a geth dreadnought in ME2. The codex is a flawed source from the beginning, and any reasoning based on it is also inherently flawed.

And once you realise that the codex was written as an unreliable source, any attempt to impose hard numbers and science on the ME universe falls apart. The writers can just write whatever they want and justify any codex contradictions as the codex being wrong or a lie.

[SaleemRa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Yes, we can't use the miracle of prelavvan or the turian tactic to
demonstrate that it can be won. Which conviently are the opnly times
other than shepard's actions that repaers are killed. 

Sorry to
say it but you really are trying to force everyone into thinking as you
do. You're not even open to the idea that those two instances
demonstrate the possiblity of victory. Nope you'd rather just say well
this is what we get, so just live with it. 

so why should anyone take your points seriously? 

ME1 lore has already demonstrated that Anti-matter was weaponized but you refuse to admit it.
You
refused to play by the same rules you want everyone else to play by. We
need to show something other that the miracle, or the space battle in
which several reapers were killed by turians to prove that a
conventional war can be won. Yet you fail to abide by the same thing.
 We point out time after time where the are contridictions in the lore
and the supposed fact that a war in not possible.

No you are mistaken warrior, I have on multiple time acknowleded antimatter in the game. What I have not acknowledged  is the viability of the tactic. Namely could you even get close enough to use an anti matter missle to take down a reaper? Would containment systems survive acceleration if it was designed as a hyper velocity shell? Use of shuttles to kamikaze not viable especially when victory was not garanteed, those shuttles could not be easily replaced and you need them for other things like getting off that cruiser to go planet side. GO back and actually read my posts before making accusations that I am not playing by the same rules

Warrior Craess wrote...
Here is the
thing about war. You never know how it's going to turn out until you
fight it. If you have to fight it though, you fight it.

And yes I'd rather have the galaxy lose 99% of it's population than suffer the BS that is the catalyst. 

So
here's my challange to you. Not counting ME3 lore (which is mostly all
BS anyway), demonstrate to me how a conventional war isn't winnable?

From where I stand it sure seems possible.

Not counting ME lore

• The prothean cycle in which most of this cycles tech is based on was still not enough to defeat the reapers. It slowed them down yes but they couldnt win. Now dont tell me that 300 years isnt enought to build new shipyards for new vessels and weapon platforms even with the relays disabled.
• The entire citadel defense fleet plus the additional human fleets couldnt do jack to sovvy (1 reaper cap ship) until Shep shorted it out
• People get indoctrinated just by being near reaper tech. How are you suppose to study and find a weakness if you cant get near it.
• The reapers had vastly superior numbers as alluded to by sovvy in ME1

Thats just ME1

Warrior Craess wrote...
1)
With no upgrades a frigate (yes the Normady is a frigate not a cruiser)
is able to defeat the collectors ship which is roughly a cruiser in
firepower). yes it gets hurt badly, and several people die.  However
with just missles the Normandy is victorious over reaper tech based
ship. With improved armor, weaponry, and shielding it isn't even a
fight. All the real damage is done by the Ocular weapon.

That was a collector ship not a reaper ship. Reaper ships arent made out of rock. If the occuli is responsible for much of the normandy's damage (hero plot armor helped save the day here) even with the inproved shields and armor then what chance does a normal alliance/turian/asari/salarian one have against it.

Warrior Craess wrote...
2) With
out husks the reapers can not control worlds. They can not force people
to come to their indoctrination camps with ou becoming vulnerable to the
suicide nuclear attacks. 

No if you play pririty earth again you will see that people were lining up to go once indoctrination set it. They dont need to force anyone

Warrior Craess wrote...
3) With out plot armor screwing up
simple optical targeting (really the missiles couldn't get a visual lock
on the reaper? WTF?) Reapers can be killed with something other than
suicidal backpack nukes.

Considering you needed very specific circumstances to take advantage of a weak spot most missiles would bounce off the shields. Suicidal backpack nukes worked because they blown up INSIDE the reapers. Thos that were detonated outside were used to destroy the camps and husks in the area.

Warrior Craess wrote...
4) Reapers can be killed in space if new
an unusual tactics are used. Doesn't matter if they are tactics of
desperation, or if they use glass cannons (like cargo ships with
drednaught guns), they work. Even if it's only a few times before a new
tactic is required. They work. Then you come up with something new.

Agree but there isnt a limitless supply of something new

Warrior Craess wrote...
All
of which leave me with no choice but to subscribe to the idea that the
only reason reapers can not be defeated, is because thats the way they
wanted this story to go. If instead of a stupid magi off button they had
wanted us to fight it out, and for EMS and our choices to make a
difference then they could have.  In fact they should have. 

So you say that reapers can not lose a conventional war, I say strip away their plot armor and they most certainly could.
Sorry can't keep my arguments related to in universe because the rules of said universe changed from ME1 and 2 to ME3 so that they could give us a magic off button.

If ME3 was a stand alone game, that required you to save the galaxy from a terrible undefeatable foe by using the Crucible, then fine, I actually would have enjoyed the heck out of it.

however ME1/2 exist. I can not unplay them. I can not forget that things like anti-matter weapons exist.

Despite everything you have said both ME1 and 2 have shown that the reapers are really really hard to kill and that there are too many of them making a conventional victory not possible. The fact that you cannont keep your arguments in game just serve to strengthen my position. If there was in game evidence to say other wise you would have shown it.

[SaleemRa]

EnerPrime wrote...

The one major problem I see with all these rationales for one side or another on the "do we need the crucible" issue is that they all rely on the codex. The same codex that is explicitly an in-game source written in-universe. It's as reliable as wikipedia if it had to have content that was acceptable to every UN government. This is the same Codex that claimed Soverign was a geth dreadnought in ME2. The codex is a flawed source from the beginning, and any reasoning based on it is also inherently flawed.

And once you realise that the codex was written as an unreliable source, any attempt to impose hard numbers and science on the ME universe falls apart. The writers can just write whatever they want and justify any codex contradictions as the codex being wrong or a lie.

Fantastic point one that I never thought of myself. Good thing I havent actually been using it for my points exclusively.

[Archer610]

A nice analysis, but it assumes all the reapers line up at Earth, and all the Allied fleets join up and fight them there in one massive battle.  The tactical situation is quite different.

1.  Defending Territory

The Affied forces have no ability in space to defend territory.  They cannot defend Earth, or any other planet or location from a reaper force that wants to take it.  The Allied fleets simply do no have the firepower to stand up to a Reaper invasion force, we see this in the beginning of the game, when Reaper forces take Earth immediately, and we know the situation is similar everywhere else.  This turns all the Allied forces into a guerilla force, capable of hit and runs, raids, etc.

The Reapers, however, want to hold territory.  Why is that?  Because the reapers build infrastructure on the planets, and start processing humans and other species.  The codex confirms that the reapers build facilities to process organics.  These need to be defended by Sov class ships.  Without them, the Allied fleets would be able to hit and run to destroy processing facilities.  This makes the reapers the ones holding territory, this ends up being very important.

2.  Mobility

The mass relay network allows for very fast movement all over the galaxy, and specifically, to any front the Reapers have opened up.

The relay network allows the Allied fleets to join up as one, anywhere, at any time.  So, if they have 170 dreadnoughts, they can be all in one place virtually without any warning.

3. Economy of Force

If a military force wants to minimze losses, they should use the principle of 'Economy of Force'.  Plainly stated, this means 'Hit the enemy's weakest point with everything you can'.  For the Allied fleets, this equals 170 dreadnoughts.  They can all be deployed to one place at one time.

4. Tactical Situation

Where are the Reaper Sovs?  We don't know this information, but it would be reasonably easy for the Allied fleets to get it.  The reapers don't seem interested in hunting down Allied ships, just processing organics.  So, we can assume that the Allies can figure out where the Sovs are.

I have no inclination to go look where the reapers are on the galaxy map, but they are spread out all over.  The correct tactical decision is to hit the smaller groups of Sovs, or even groups of destroyers, and eliminate them with minimal losses.

At 295 Sovs, the reapers do not have enough to defend all the areas they have decided to take, since the Allies can hit them with 170 dreadnoughts.  How many Sovs did the reapers send to the Elcor homeworld?  5?  10?   Either way, the 170 dreadnoughts kill them, likely with no losses.
 
The Elcor homeworld is then a good place to repair damaged ships, grow food etc.  If the reapers decide to send more Sovs to the Elcor system, they have to send them from some other system, weakening it's defenses.

5. The Moron Principle

The reapers make too many strategic mistakes, understandably, this is for story and game purposes.  If the reapers shut down the relay network, the Allies have no chance.  This is actually how they win their wars, not with superior numbers or firepower, but by dividing their enemies.  If the reapers chose to hunt down fleets instead of going to homeworlds, then they win, too.

is there any way we can justify the reapers moronic strategy?  I think there are three.  First, hubris.  The reapers are so assured of their own superiority, they simply cannot concieve of organics defeating them.  This could lead to bad strategic choices, such as fighting on too many fronts, ignoring the enemy, allowing them to join together, etc.
 
Second,  they've fought this fight 20,000 times.  They may simply be incapable of changing tactics.  We see similar groupmind type thinking in corporations and govornments.  They simply  may not know how to fight an organized galaxy, since they have never had to before.

Third.  The Catalyst.  We know his logic is horrible.  He's a psychopath, and a mass murderer.  His lack of empathy might extend to the reapers.  When they die, he might just shrug.  He simply may not care about fighting intelligently.

TL;DR

The reapers can lose conventionally, because they make horrible strategic errors.  If they fought intelligently, they would win, but we have no evidence they fight intelligently.

[Raynulf]

SaleemRa wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

All of it? The entire galactic infrastructure destroyed in a few months by the same reapers that took centuries to wipe out the scattered and caught off guard protheans? Nowhere to fall back to, no backup facilities, no repurposing surviving remote ones, no evacuating the endangered ones, no building new ones?

We can built a whole new eezo refinery speicifically for the crucible project and keep it hidden/protected, but we can't build facilities to produce actual useful weapons?

Hi AMP
Why not, industrial facilities are the first thing that they hit and the reapers hit core wordls first, Kashan, Earth Palavan, Illium. They werent just sitting around not doing anything. They would have also had access to indoctrinated agents that could have divulged locations of these production facilities. The crucible did not require a new eezo plant to be made, it is entirely possible that it was one of the first things that hacket grabbed when he went to ground. 

Thessia and Sur'Kesh (homeworlds of two of the four 'big' citadel races) were untouched for 90% of the war. Four months down the track, the reapers only just got around to hitting Thessia, and Sur'Kesh was still fine and dandy.

So. No. Industrial facilities weren't crippled 'first thing' - quite the opposite, really.

SaleemRa wrote...

Additionally all possible resources are being poured into the crucible because the powers that be BELIEVE that it is their best chance. Remember from an IN UNIVERSE POV they know a lot more then anyone playing the game. If they say its what they need then they know best.

.... No.

They have no idea what it does - they say that time and again. It's a gamble and they know it.

Arguing that they believe they need to build the macguffin, so can't afford the Mass Effect equivalent of a car or dozen is not particularly compelling logic. Shuttles are everywhere in the game. They're cheap and plentiful.

SaleemRa wrote...

My idea on why they didnt bother taking the citadel in the first place is the fact that they dont need it.

• Locking down the relay's - irrelevant. Locking it down the network implies that the reapers are worried about taking everyone on at once, they wont they just didnt care. Without the Crucible they would have won in the long run doesnt matter if it took then 1000 years to do it they would. In fact a pitched battle would have probably worked in their favour. Remember despite what you want there are NO kamikaze antimatter FTL shuttles in the game.

Again. No.

The reapers are losing capital ships in this long, drawn out war where the organics can muster their fleets to fight back. Each capital ship is the last vestige of an entire organic species and utterly irreplaceable. Even if they can produce a half dozen capital ships (rather than the "one per cycle max" generally quoted) - by not capturing the Citadel they are taking a HUGE LOSS this cycle.

There is absolutely no excuse given in the game for why the reapers are going about this cycle "hard mode". It simply does not make sense given the established story to date. That entire plot device that was introduced in Mass Effect 1 was simply ignored because it wouldn't give emotive scenes of reapers fighting on earth and great fleets massing to liberate it. I.e. writer intervention.

SaleemRa wrote...

• Cant fix something that has been destroyed or completely dismantled

It was broken/dismantled when? If it was, considering Shepard could comfortably use it in Mass Effect 1 with his/her omnitool, it was broken/dismantled why?

It is the single most powerful strategic weapon in the galaxy, and in the hands of the most powerful (and benevolent) faction in the galaxy. And it is simply ignored by all parties involved - because the writers either forgot about it or didn't want to address it. Again: Writer intervention.

SaleemRa wrote...

• Entirely possible that the Catalyst wanted to see how things would turn out and left instructions to leave the Citadel alone, afterall this cycle did manage to delay the invasion and prevent the opening of the citadel relay when Sov attacked it. A mighty feat in its own right  considering that everything was in its favour.

The best argument for it, ironically using the single weakest part of the entire game: The StarChild.

So essentially an Act of God.

SaleemRa wrote...

Simple if your travelling faster then light how will you be able to percieve it. The light blue shifts into spectrums that are not visible, therefore optical system wont work.

Again: Not really.

Just because it blue-shifts past the visual range of the human eye does not mean that you can't observe what is ahead of you. It just means you need receptors capable of reading a broader spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. "Visible Light" is just the range of frequencies we see. So yes, you can and in the game you do have vehicles travelling at FTL observing the light coming towards them to see what is ahead.

And I reiterate: Targetting is simply a matter of attempting to predict where they will be by the time your shot reaches them, and aiming there. That is how it works in the game. If you can fire something fast enough, the odds of missing drop massively - it's why lasers don't miss. So having a warhead delivered at FTL speeds does not have the same effective range as a 0.014c cannon slug - in fact, it's accurate range will likely be proportional to it's speed (i.e. at least 100 times that of the cannon).


I appreciate that you have deeply held opinions on this, Saleem, I just do not think the arguments you make to justify it are logically sound, and the somewhat cyclical nature of this debate is getting a bit grating. So with that: /thread, I am afraid.

Modifié par Raynulf, 07 mai 2012 - 01:31 .

[Elyiia]

Raynulf wrote...

The reapers are losing capital ships in this long, drawn out war where the organics can muster their fleets to fight back. Each capital ship is the last vestige of an entire organic species and utterly irreplaceable. Even if they can produce a half dozen capital ships (rather than the "one per cycle max" generally quoted) - by not capturing the Citadel they are taking a HUGE LOSS this cycle.

I believe, but I might be wrong here, that we're told it takes an entire species to make a Capital ship which explains the "max one per cycle". The Capital ships are supposed to be the entire civilisation of the species used to make it.

[SaleemRa]

Ok One final point I'd like to make before calling it quits coz god knows Ive spent waaay too much time talking about a fictional universe is this:

Not all the reapers are at earth but all the fleets go to earth to liberate it, now assuming kamikaze shuttles work, assuming that you have your targetting occuli all lined up with all the bugs sorted out and every single one hits its target and all the reapers around earth are destroyed what then?

There are still more reapers then allied forces, whats to stop them coming through the charon relay behind the fleets and attacking them then losses be damned? Reapers have instant communication, if they are losing they will call for backup it only takes one to get the message out. More will come, what then? You have no more shuttles to kamikaze and even if you did your targeting occuli are in the wrong spot facing the wrong direction.

Whats to stop the reapers from hacking the firewalls of a ship and causing their cores to overload or vent atmo as suggested by edi in ME2? The geth in all their glory were overwhelmed by a single reaper and only the Normandy has an unshackled AI to protect it and even then there is no guarantee that she would be able to resist a reaper hacking attempt. Whats to stop those same reapers from hacking the occuli and sending those shuttles left behind against your own ships? From an IN UNIVERSE pov all these things are possible.

I never said killing reapers was impossible only that total victory via conventional means were. With that I too shall /thread. Its been fun and a lot of ideas have been kicked around but I dont see any IN UNIVERSE arguments that support it. What I have seen are a lot of IN UNIVERSE arguments on taking SOME reapers down and those are fantastic, that and a lot of arguing about plot armor which I'd like to point out has been applied in equal doses to both sides.

Take care guys and heres hoping that the EC fixes the problems in ME3 - fingers crossed!

Modifié par SaleemRa, 07 mai 2012 - 01:44 .

[Ytook]

One thing that has always convinced me that a conventional victory is possible is the reapers own tactics. If they are as an overwhelmingly powerful forcd as they make out then why does their failure to tske the citadel in a surprise attack cripple them at all? For that manner why bother with indoctrination or any kind of subversion? Everything that the reapers do from the end of me1 smacks of desperation, the collectors in particular, why waste any resources doing half the things that they do if they can be so confident of a crushing victory?

Equally the reaper fleet could not maintain the level of attrition that the allied forces could, to create a new Dreadnaught for the reapers is a painstaking process and by the looks of me2 one that can be disrupted by a small skilled suicide squad. Every loss the reapers take is catastrophic and essentially irreplaceable, they are also clearly thinly spread in me3, they have large focal points such as earth and palaven but apparently a mass of ground forces alone are enough to give them problems at Palaven. Equally chances are that you will have the Geth at your side who can seemingly replicate combat units and fighting forces fairly quickly (though this is speculation). All in all it seems to me that the plot (if not the specific numbers) very much points towards a conventional victory being possible with enough collected forces (otherwise what is the point in collecting them anyway?) in what would be a guerrilla style war (we don't have to hold ground and can continue to build forces, the reapers have to hold ground and cannot create more forces quickly enough or in any where near viable numbers). Bevause of this I was expecting the crucible to be a trap (that and the clear absurdity of it as a plot device).

Another point I think that many over look is that it is pretty clear that, until aforementioned star brat turns up, the reapers must have a political construct. Sovreign clearly states that they are individuals capable of self determination, they must therefore have a guiding hand behind them, even if the reapers act with a purpose they all entirely believe in (which is incredibly improbable no matter what the purpose, particularly as each reaper is 'a nation unto themselves') there must be a group or individual espousing that purpose and leading the reapers. The impression I got was of Harbinger as a deified dictator, without such a leader they would not be able to maintain such a unity of purpose for such a huge amount of time, off shoots and fractures would emerge (it seemed to me at least that the reapers where just as much indoctrinated themselves as Saren was). This is why I thought a final confrontation with Harbinger was coming, removing him would lead to disorder amongst the reapers as some questioned their purpose and they had no leader to organise them along a long term strategy, it would not defeat them but severely cripple their unity of purpose (it would also provide the player a sense of feeling 'responsible' for a victory which otherwise they would, and currently do, feel disconnected from). And then I went up to the citadel and the entire fiction fell apart at the seems but that is much discussed elsewhere.

Well there you go that's what I have to say on the matter, I'm sure you'll all be able to tear it apart easily but those are my thoughts for what it's worth.

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Yes, we can't use the miracle of prelavvan or the turian tactic to
demonstrate that it can be won. Which conviently are the opnly times
other than shepard's actions that repaers are killed. 

Sorry to
say it but you really are trying to force everyone into thinking as you
do. You're not even open to the idea that those two instances
demonstrate the possiblity of victory. Nope you'd rather just say well
this is what we get, so just live with it. 

so why should anyone take your points seriously? 

ME1 lore has already demonstrated that Anti-matter was weaponized but you refuse to admit it.
You
refused to play by the same rules you want everyone else to play by. We
need to show something other that the miracle, or the space battle in
which several reapers were killed by turians to prove that a
conventional war can be won. Yet you fail to abide by the same thing.
 We point out time after time where the are contridictions in the lore
and the supposed fact that a war in not possible.

No you are mistaken warrior, I have on multiple time acknowleded antimatter in the game. What I have not acknowledged  is the viability of the tactic. Namely could you even get close enough to use an anti matter missle to take down a reaper? Would containment systems survive acceleration if it was designed as a hyper velocity shell? Use of shuttles to kamikaze not viable especially when victory was not garanteed, those shuttles could not be easily replaced and you need them for other things like getting off that cruiser to go planet side. GO back and actually read my posts before making accusations that I am not playing by the same rules

Warrior Craess wrote...
Here is the
thing about war. You never know how it's going to turn out until you
fight it. If you have to fight it though, you fight it.

And yes I'd rather have the galaxy lose 99% of it's population than suffer the BS that is the catalyst. 

So
here's my challange to you. Not counting ME3 lore (which is mostly all
BS anyway), demonstrate to me how a conventional war isn't winnable?

From where I stand it sure seems possible.

Not counting ME lore

• The prothean cycle in which most of this cycles tech is based on was still not enough to defeat the reapers. It slowed them down yes but they couldnt win. Now dont tell me that 300 years isnt enought to build new shipyards for new vessels and weapon platforms even with the relays disabled.
• The entire citadel defense fleet plus the additional human fleets couldnt do jack to sovvy (1 reaper cap ship) until Shep shorted it out
• People get indoctrinated just by being near reaper tech. How are you suppose to study and find a weakness if you cant get near it.
• The reapers had vastly superior numbers as alluded to by sovvy in ME1

Thats just ME1

Warrior Craess wrote...
1)
With no upgrades a frigate (yes the Normady is a frigate not a cruiser)
is able to defeat the collectors ship which is roughly a cruiser in
firepower). yes it gets hurt badly, and several people die.  However
with just missles the Normandy is victorious over reaper tech based
ship. With improved armor, weaponry, and shielding it isn't even a
fight. All the real damage is done by the Ocular weapon.

That was a collector ship not a reaper ship. Reaper ships arent made out of rock. If the occuli is responsible for much of the normandy's damage (hero plot armor helped save the day here) even with the inproved shields and armor then what chance does a normal alliance/turian/asari/salarian one have against it.

Warrior Craess wrote...
2) With
out husks the reapers can not control worlds. They can not force people
to come to their indoctrination camps with ou becoming vulnerable to the
suicide nuclear attacks. 

No if you play pririty earth again you will see that people were lining up to go once indoctrination set it. They dont need to force anyone

Warrior Craess wrote...
3) With out plot armor screwing up
simple optical targeting (really the missiles couldn't get a visual lock
on the reaper? WTF?) Reapers can be killed with something other than
suicidal backpack nukes.

Considering you needed very specific circumstances to take advantage of a weak spot most missiles would bounce off the shields. Suicidal backpack nukes worked because they blown up INSIDE the reapers. Thos that were detonated outside were used to destroy the camps and husks in the area.

Warrior Craess wrote...
4) Reapers can be killed in space if new
an unusual tactics are used. Doesn't matter if they are tactics of
desperation, or if they use glass cannons (like cargo ships with
drednaught guns), they work. Even if it's only a few times before a new
tactic is required. They work. Then you come up with something new.

Agree but there isnt a limitless supply of something new

Warrior Craess wrote...
All
of which leave me with no choice but to subscribe to the idea that the
only reason reapers can not be defeated, is because thats the way they
wanted this story to go. If instead of a stupid magi off button they had
wanted us to fight it out, and for EMS and our choices to make a
difference then they could have.  In fact they should have. 

So you say that reapers can not lose a conventional war, I say strip away their plot armor and they most certainly could.
Sorry can't keep my arguments related to in universe because the rules of said universe changed from ME1 and 2 to ME3 so that they could give us a magic off button.

If ME3 was a stand alone game, that required you to save the galaxy from a terrible undefeatable foe by using the Crucible, then fine, I actually would have enjoyed the heck out of it.

however ME1/2 exist. I can not unplay them. I can not forget that things like anti-matter weapons exist.

Despite everything you have said both ME1 and 2 have shown that the reapers are really really hard to kill and that there are too many of them making a conventional victory not possible. The fact that you cannont keep your arguments in game just serve to strengthen my position. If there was in game evidence to say other wise you would have shown it.

If you admit that anti matter weapons exist, how then can you not allow for a military use for them? We don't ever see the GARDIAN lasers or the reaper equivalent, does this mean that they are not a viable military weapon?

The Prothean's lost their central hub, and the abilities to use the relay system. Surprise was total and devastating. We on the other hand knew of the reapers a few years in advance, and didn't lose the command and control center nor did we lose the ability to travel between relays. With out the ability to traverse the stars willinilli there would be no priority earth mission, no miracle of Palaven. With out losing the citadel the Protheans may very well have been able to stand up to the reapers.

Yes you need ground troops to enforce your will on a populace. No matter how terrifying Reapers may be, if they can not prevent someone from sneaking into range and detonating a nuclear warhead then they do not get the time to effectively indoctrinate people. Certainly not the slow an subtle type that would make the official leaders able to be effective traitors. Yes, they need ground troops, unless they want to glass the entire world.

The Thanix missles didn't bounce off. Their went out of control and never gained target lock. We lets disengage the seeker function, and simply aim them at the 150 story tall monster. it's like hitting a barn 10 ft away with a rock thrown by a major league baseball player. The reason that the reapers are vulnerable is that once they touch down most of their mass effect shielding is used up making sure that they stay structurally sound. Which also means that it takes a whole let less than the main guns from 4 drednaughts to pierce their shields.

So lets recap here based on in game lore.

Anti matter weapons exist.
Reaper's husk signal can be interrupted.
Reapers are vulnerable once they reach planet side.
Reapers can be beat in space, if your willing to pay the butchers bill to do so. Or if you're inventive enough to do something surprising. Ala the miracle of Pelavan.
The reapers failed to take control of the citadel initially.
Most home-worlds are in trouble but many species arn't limited to just their own home-world.
It took hundreds of years to destroy the Protheans.

So far it's certainly looking like a conventional war is not only possible, but very likely. All based on in game lore. Now if you choose to accept the possiblity or not is entirely up to you. Take it from someone who actively trained for war though. Given he facts above, then yes a conventional war could be waged with every expectation of winning.

[Warrior Craess]

SaleemRa wrote...

Ok One final point I'd like to make before calling it quits coz god knows Ive spent waaay too much time talking about a fictional universe is this:

Not all the reapers are at earth but all the fleets go to earth to liberate it, now assuming kamikaze shuttles work, assuming that you have your targetting occuli all lined up with all the bugs sorted out and every single one hits its target and all the reapers around earth are destroyed what then?

There are still more reapers then allied forces, whats to stop them coming through the charon relay behind the fleets and attacking them then losses be damned? Reapers have instant communication, if they are losing they will call for backup it only takes one to get the message out. More will come, what then? You have no more shuttles to kamikaze and even if you did your targeting occuli are in the wrong spot facing the wrong direction.

Whats to stop the reapers from hacking the firewalls of a ship and causing their cores to overload or vent atmo as suggested by edi in ME2? The geth in all their glory were overwhelmed by a single reaper and only the Normandy has an unshackled AI to protect it and even then there is no guarantee that she would be able to resist a reaper hacking attempt. Whats to stop those same reapers from hacking the occuli and sending those shuttles left behind against your own ships? From an IN UNIVERSE pov all these things are possible.

I never said killing reapers was impossible only that total victory via conventional means were. With that I too shall /thread. Its been fun and a lot of ideas have been kicked around but I dont see any IN UNIVERSE arguments that support it. What I have seen are a lot of IN UNIVERSE arguments on taking SOME reapers down and those are fantastic, that and a lot of arguing about plot armor which I'd like to point out has been applied in equal doses to both sides.

Take care guys and heres hoping that the EC fixes the problems in ME3 - fingers crossed!

there are very simple ways to prevent hacking. First you make it a stand alone, non networked computer. It goes out, does it's job, and then either goes inert, with a beacon signal, or self destructs. Therefore no possible way for the reapers to hack the firewalls. Therefor no possible way for the reapers to turn those weapons against us. 

Given how ME3 was written, you are right, a conventional war is no longer a viable option. But here is the rub, it would have been possible based on everything we learned in ME1 and 2. With out the council being completely moronic, with out the military only learning 1 thing from Sovy (yay thanix cannons), with out the militaries of all worlds desperately doing R&D to figure out how to defeat another Sovy, geth or not.  The list of bone headed things that had to happen in order for a conventional war to not be a possiblity is rather daunting in size. 

WE got a magic off button, for no other reason than that is what the writers wanted. Not becuase there was in game information proving that a converntional war is so totally un-winable as to be an alien concept.