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"I'm Cmdr. SHERIDAN, and this is my favorite way to end galactic wars!


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#1
Vox Draco

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So recently I watched a little Babylon 5 again. And I was more than entertained by the way how Cmdr. Sheridan, the main protagonist of the series, ended the great galactic war that was waged between two ancient and very powerful races and threatened to engulf all the younger races of the galaxy as well.

In fact Sheridan ends this war mostly by using...words. There is no videogamey boss fight, just Sheridan argueing together with his wife Delenn and two represantatives of the warmongering Old Races. And he says so many right things to them that translate perfectly to Mass Effect. And I think THIS would be exactly the kind of way we would have loved to see OUR Commander handle his final encounter with a certain "higher being"...all the way down to Sheridan's great last words at the end of this discussion...

Read it for yourself and make up your mind, I think it is quite enlightening...and makes you wonder why Bioware, after getting obviously A LOT of inspiration from this series (its truly amazing how many similarities to the Babylon 5 universe there are...), did not allow our Shepard to act like this! And tell the Star Child what he/she thinks of his twisted ideology, his choices and where exactly the Star Child can stuff all this...  

Some short background-Info: This dialogue takes place mostly in Sheridan and Delenns (his wife) mind, during a large battle being waged outside between the fleets of the Vorlons and Shadows, sworn enemy representing ideas of order and chaos. Sheridan and his fleet of allied younger races is right in between, without much hope of winning or surviving by conventional means. There is also a planet with over six billion lifes at stake that is supposed to get annihilated by the Vorlons due to a Shadow base on it. But Sheridan somehow gets into contact with the two arch-enemies, and the future of the galaxy depends on how he will handle the situation. But we know these kind of situations, don't we?

I hope some of you enjoy it as much as I did!


Vorlon: We do not understand you. We wished only the best for you. We only want to help you.

Sheridan: You're destroying whole worlds!

Vorlon: The others are a disease. You have given us the opportunity to eliminate it. We are grateful? Why do you oppose us?

Sheridan: Because I don't like being used! Or lied to!

Vorlon: We have not lied! Our goal is the same as yours: to destroy the darkness!

Sheridan: Then why haven't you struck at them directly? You don't wanna answer that one, do you? See..I finally understood the rules of this war when I saw your planetkillers in action. You have had the technology to destroy Zhahadum (Shadow homeplanet) all along! So why haven't you used it?

Vorlon: You do not understand!

Sheridan: Oh, but I do understand! And that's what got you worried! A Vorlon said: understanding is a three edged sword.Your side, their side, and the truth! The truth is: We don't need you anymore!

Shadow, to Delenn: The Vorlons stand for order above anything else. No passion, no dreams, just discipline, obedience. They're frozen in place, an evolutionary dead end! Why side with the old? Embrace the new! Growth through pain and struggle. Conflict and war. You, of all people, should understand this!

2nd Shadow: Your race came out of the last war stronger, better. How much better..how much stronger will they be after this war? You will rise from the ashes with strength and power beyond your imagination.

Delenn: Until you do it to us again?

Shadow: It is...the cycle (hah!). It is the force of history itself. You cannot win against that. We have embraced it. We have helped it along by creating conflict. Weak races die, strong races are made even stronger. Evolution must be served. There is no other way.

Delenn: No! That's what you want us to believe.

Sheridan, to Vorlon: That's why you are really doing this! That's why you target planets that help the Shadows...and don't destroy Zahadum itself! You don't want to kill the messenger, you just wanna kill the message! Make it harder for them to get to us..guarantee we do things your way...

Delenn, to Shadow: After all, if you destroy the Vorlons, they'll never know you've won. They'll never see that you were right and they were wrong. It's about ideology.

Shadow: Of course. What isn't? Order...versus...chaos...Choose one.

Delenn: Yes...choose. But only from the choices you give us! Don't you see that this is wrong? when the other First Ones passed beyond the RIM, you stayed behind as guardians, shepherds(*g*) for the younger races. But you've lost your way. This isn't about teaching us or helping us. This is about you being right!

Sheridan, to Vorlon: You're trying to force us to decide which of you is right. You are like a couple of parents arguing in front of their child, manipulating them...trying to get them to take sides. Not for their benefit, but for yours! But what if the right choice...is not to choose at all?

Delenn, to Shadow: What if we reject the idea that we must decide which of you is right? What if we simply walk away?

Shadow: You cannot do that.

Delenn: Then the war will never end.

Shadow: That is correct.

Delenn: Then there is no hope.

Shadow: There is only chaos and evolution.

Vorlon, to Sheridan: There is only order and obedience. You will do as you are told.

Shadow, to Delenn: You will fight, because we tell you to fight.

Vorlon, to Sheridan: You will die for us when we tell you to die for us..because the others (younger races) know no other way.

Sheridan: That's where you are wrong.

Shadow: You've let them see! You've let them know! (The Shadows/Vorlons have been tricked, the entire fleet was able to see/hear this conversation, and Delenn/Sheridan are back in reality, on their ship. The Shadows and Vorlons send holograms of themselves, the conversation goes on)

Sheridan
: The Vorlons ask only one question over and over: Who are you? to Shadow: You, for you the question is, what do you want? I have never heard you answer that question. Who are you? What do you want?

Delenn
: You don't know, do you? You've been fighting for so long, you have forgotten. You've lost your way. So how can you guide us? How can we learn who we are and what we want if you don't even know anymore?

Sheridan
: It doesn't matter which side wins this today. A thousand years from now, this will start all over again. You are as trapped in this cycle as much as we are. But we can't afford this anymore. We don't need it. We don't need YOU! We've learned to stand on our own. We'll make mistakes, but they'll be our mistakes, not yours.

Delenn
: Your secret is out. All these other races know you for who you are. So, what now?

Vorlon
: You do not speak for the rest! Shadow: They will not follow you if you are dead!
A Drazi-Ship sacrifices itself to safe Sheridan's ship from getting destroyed by Vorlons and Shadows...the allied fleet surrounds Sheridan's ship to protect it.

Delenn
: The others (the allied younger races) have rejected you! How will you have a war when noone will fight for either of you?

Sheridan
: We refuse to take sides in this anymore. And we refuse to let you turn us against one another. We know who we are now. We can find our own way between order and chaos!

Delenn
: You can kill us...one by one, and those who follow us and those who follow them...on and on, every race, every planet, until there's no one left to kill. You will have failed as guardians. And you will be alone.

Sheridan
: It's over because WE'VE decided it's over! Now get the hell out of our galaxy! Both of you! (Epic line, isn't it? Exactly what OUR Commander should have said, don't you think? Oh, and of course it worked. The Vorlorns and Shadows, with a little help from another ancient being present on the ship and allied with Sheridan, realize that Sheridan is right and that their "solution" won't work anymore/has lost its credibility. They leave the galaxy forever.)

So...what do you think? Beside blowing all Reapers skyhigh in an epic final stand....wouldn't this have been so much better and satisfying than seeing Shepard stumbling around and saying not much more than "maybe" and "I don't know"?

For the "hard of reading" or the ones that would like to see Sheridan's actual performance of these lines...here is the entire dialogue on Youtube
 1. Part
 2. Part

Edit: a little correction, as it is of course "Sheridan's actual performance", not Shepards...Guess it was my imagination carrying me away...

Modifié par Vox Draco, 04 mai 2012 - 08:08 .


#2
C04L

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Babylon5 is EPIC!

oh how i wish ITF hadn't got canned..

here's a thought.. Bioware! go watch all B5 then go talk to JMS
<*> forever!

Modifié par C04L, 02 mai 2012 - 06:14 .


#3
HellishFiend

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Wholeheartedly agree. I believe the IT, but if the ME trilogy was to have a face value ending, they would have done well to mimic Babylon 5!

#4
RShara

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Yeah that type of confrontation would have made sooooooooooooooooooo much more sense. GTFO of our galaxy!
We reject you. We reject what you stand for. Your solution is irrelevant. Our lives are ours!

#5
Ieldra

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Wow. Why have I ever stopped watching B5? I don't have a big problem with the choices ME3 presents us with, only their side effects, but something like this would have been better, I totally agree.

#6
The5Virtues

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“If only, if only," the woodpecker sighs,
"The bark on the tree was as
soft as the skies."
While the wolf waits below, hungry and lonely,
Crying to the moo-oo-oon, "If only, If only.”


I've come to accept that a scene as epic as that is simply beyond the reach of ME3's writing team. :(

Modifié par The5Virtues, 02 mai 2012 - 06:42 .


#7
Naoe

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...always got the job done with limited resources, good captain. Bit of a cloaka though. Loved his speeches...

#8
AlexXIV

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I think that's a bit what Bioware was trying to do, but the execution was rather bad. At the end the players feel forced to choose between 3 options they all reject. It is supposed to be our choice but it isn't. It is, as in the discussion you just posted, their choice, and we get to choose from the choices THEY give us. Mind you that's always the case in video games. But if they do it right then most people will find THEIR choice in the choices Bioware give them. However, in case of ME3 we don't. All choices are bad, and unexplained. There is no way someone who thinks for him- or herself can choose and be happy with it. I don't mind bitter ending and sacrifice. But I need a good reason for it. And that's what Bioware fails to deliver. Things that are given as a sort of explaination make no sense, and people refuse to accept them.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 mai 2012 - 07:00 .


#9
daecath

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Saw that on YouTube, and I wanted to cry at what could have been.

#10
pjotroos

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Babylon 5 in general is one of the most magnificent works of sci-fi I've ever experienced. Resolution of that plot line was one particular punch-the-air moment, the end of the civil war on Earth another. The final episode is just sublime. If only more were as dedicated to their stories as JMS - crazy bastard wrote 40-odd episodes in a row all by himself, then another dozen or so after a single breather - from friggin Neil Gaiman!!

#11
zambingo

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RShara wrote...

Yeah that type of confrontation would have made sooooooooooooooooooo much more sense. GTFO of our galaxy!
We reject you. We reject what you stand for. Your solution is irrelevant. Our lives are ours!


That's how I look at the Destroy ending.

#12
Vox Draco

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pjotroos wrote...

Babylon 5 in general is one of the most magnificent works of sci-fi I've ever experienced. Resolution of that plot line was one particular punch-the-air moment, the end of the civil war on Earth another. The final episode is just sublime. If only more were as dedicated to their stories as JMS - crazy bastard wrote 40-odd episodes in a row all by himself, then another dozen or so after a single breather - from friggin Neil Gaiman!!


Yes, I think Babylon 5 truly is one of the best SciFi series ever created (Take this, Sheldon Cooper!)

Yet what I find particularly funny about this dialogue and how it was used to solve the Great Shadow War is...that it wasn't actually planned to be like that. At least they didn't want to end this story-arc so quickly.

Originally they wanted to finish the Shadow-arc at the end of season 4, and dedicate the fifth season to "retake Earth" from the fascists. But due to budget reasons they beleived there would be no fifth season, so the end of the Shadow war feels kinda...rushed...sounds familiar?

And still...though maybe a little "anti-climatic" (like sending the Borg simply to sleep), it is still a strong piece of dialogue, I think.

And yes, JMS and Gaimann...couldn't they do the EC? Image IPB

#13
Ab_Normal

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I won't be able to watch that scene again without envisioning a dialog wheel at the bottom of the screen...

#14
MOELANDER

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Ab_Normal wrote...

I won't be able to watch that scene again without envisioning a dialog wheel at the bottom of the screen...

Daayummm right!

Mac Walters eat your heart out! You'll never be as awesome as JMS when it comes to writing under limited resources!

#15
Troglyte

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That's because B5 was/is art and ME3 is a consumer product.

#16
sw04ca

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It doesn't make any sense. The Vorlons and Shadows were vulnerable to that kind of reasoning because they were supposed to have been the caretakers of the younger races so that they can evolve and join the elders beyond the rim, and by exterminating them all they were failing in their task. The Catalyst and the Reapers aren't motivated by a desire to protect the younger races, but by a desire to protect the future of all organic life in the galaxy by exterminating advanced civilizations. If the Vorlons/Shadows use force and wipe everybody out, they lose. If the Reapers do the same, they win.

I mean, I guess Shepard could have said that, and then the game ends with some aliens discovering Liara's time capsule.

#17
dorktainian

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the Crucible has 3 beams. as Kosh said. ''Understanding is a '3' edged sword''



This was used as a final argument against the Vorlons and Shadows who decided to tag team up on sheridans fleet.  www.youtube.com/watch

1. Your Side
2. Their Side.
3. The Truth.

and...............The truth is we don't need you anymore!! (which would be the DESTROY ending!!)

fave saying...

Kosh.  "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."  :alien:

Modifié par dorktainian, 02 mai 2012 - 07:48 .


#18
Vox Draco

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sw04ca wrote...

It doesn't make any sense. The Vorlons and Shadows were vulnerable to that kind of reasoning because they were supposed to have been the caretakers of the younger races so that they can evolve and join the elders beyond the rim, and by exterminating them all they were failing in their task. The Catalyst and the Reapers aren't motivated by a desire to protect the younger races, but by a desire to protect the future of all organic life in the galaxy by exterminating advanced civilizations. If the Vorlons/Shadows use force and wipe everybody out, they lose. If the Reapers do the same, they win.

I mean, I guess Shepard could have said that, and then the game ends with some aliens discovering Liara's time capsule.


It is not about copying Cmdr. John Sheridan's (hmmm?) complete dialogue and pasting it onto Cmdr. John Shepard's (*cough*) ending..but about the overall way Sheridan reacts to the situation, while Shepard is only allowed to listen and then...choose...

The basic conflict is somehow different, but this doesn't matter. It is about NOT accepting the "facts" and weird ideology some self-proclaimed higher beings force upon the galaxy.

I posted this basically as a statement for the fourth option! And no, "critical mission failure" I do not mean! And yes, if this fourth option wouldn't lead to catalyst-overload (not too bad) tha n to a "conventional victory with heavy losses, maybe by destroying only the citadel with starchild itself...

Modifié par Vox Draco, 02 mai 2012 - 07:49 .


#19
Aetas Mutuo

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B5 is still one of the best Sci-Fi series that was ever on TV. And the ending was better then most I have seen in decades.

Lorean would have been a better god-character then Star-Brat.

#20
TODD9999

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Yep, that sort of dramatic oratory battle could have been quite cool. Rejection of the Reapers' agenda and their reasons for it, rejection of the choices they force upon Shepard, and resolution of the conflict on our terms, not on theirs (or just not resolving the conflict, but allowing it to play out in its own way, in its own time, instead of being brutally hacked off by the Reapers' 'solution').

[EDIT: The conflict I'm referring to above is the organics vs. synthetics one that the Reapers are so fixated on.]

My friends and I still use "Now get the HELL out of my X!" from time to time. It's a ridiculous line, but Bruce Boxleitner totally sold it.

Modifié par TODD9999, 02 mai 2012 - 07:56 .


#21
aj2070

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Vox Draco wrote...



Sheridan
: It doesn't matter which side wins this today. A thousand years from now, this will start all over again. You are as trapped in this cycle as much as we are. But we can't afford this anymore. We don't need it. We don't need YOU! We've learned to stand on our own. We'll make mistakes, but they'll be our mistakes, not yours.

<Snip> for space


Sheridan
: We refuse to take sides in this anymore. And we refuse to let you turn us against one another. We know who we are now. We can find our own way between order and chaos!

<Snip>


Sheridan
: It's over because WE'VE decided it's over! Now get the hell out of our galaxy! Both of you! (Epic line, isn't it? Exactly what OUR Commander should have said, don't you think? Oh, and of course it worked. The Vorlorns and Shadows, with a little help from another ancient being present on the ship and allied with Sheridan, realize that Sheridan is right and that their "solution" won't work anymore/has lost its credibility. They leave the galaxy forever.)

So...what do you think? Beside blowing all Reapers skyhigh in an epic final stand....wouldn't this have been so much better and satisfying than seeing Shepard stumbling around and saying not much more than "maybe" and "I don't know"?


That exchange is exactly what I was looking for from Shepard not, "okay, I'll do whatever you tell me."  I was really looking for the "we may create synthetics and they may rise up against us and destroy us but it will be our undoing, not your meddling".

#22
StarcloudSWG

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*THIS* is epic storytelling. This is what Casey and Mac completely failed to deliver, because they were too busy looking at the tiny picture instead of the big one.

The entire first three seasons were building up to that moment. Every line of dialog in there was foreshadowed, expressed as a theme, in the previous episodes, more than once.

What did Casey and Mac deliver? A slipshod, slapdash, half-baked, unfinished, ending, lifted almost whole cloth from another game.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 02 mai 2012 - 08:22 .


#23
Ab_Normal

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

*THIS* is epic storytelling. This is what Casey and Mac completely failed to deliver, because they were too busy looking at the tiny picture instead of the big one.

The entire first three seasons were building up to that moment. Every line of dialog in there was foreshadowed, expressed as a theme, in the previous episodes, more than once.

What did Casey and Mac deliver? A slipshod, slapdash, half-baked, unfinished, ending, lifted almost whole cloth from another game.


And the entire team could stand to take a page out of JMS's book when it comes to fan interaction. Ah, the halcyon days of rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5...

#24
Thornne

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But it was so ... conventional. I mean, look at that ending. What you saw and heard made logical sense. It is presented clearly and concisely to the audience. It explains the motivations of the elder races in a way anyone can understand. BORING!

Where's the speculation? Where is the beautiful, glorious uncertainty, or the yawning plot holes, all daring you to overcome them? B5's ending was for kids. And we're MUCH too sophisticated for something like that.

People will never be talking about the ending to B5 years later. Too traditional.

(Sarcasm mode: off)
Still love B5. What a run that was.

Modifié par Thornne, 02 mai 2012 - 08:53 .


#25
Vox Draco

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

*THIS* is epic storytelling. This is what Casey and Mac completely failed to deliver, because they were too busy looking at the tiny picture instead of the big one.

The entire first three seasons were building up to that moment. Every line of dialog in there was foreshadowed, expressed as a theme, in the previous episodes, more than once.

What did Casey and Mac deliver? A slipshod, slapdash, half-baked, unfinished, ending, lifted almost whole cloth from another game.


And I think here lies one of the problems of the ME-Series...I often had the impression that after ME2 they kinda lost their track of where to go. They wanted a trilogy and tried to fill the gap between ME1 and M3 with something, and it wasn't that bad but...somehow ME2 wasn't really fitting in for me...I can't put my finger on it though...

I was under the same impression with those prequels for Star Wars. Nobody, not even Lucas, could convince me that this storyline was intended exactly like what we got several years ago when he created the first trilogy...I think he had some basic idea where to go, and just put together something that might sell toys...at least this is my feeling...

Oh...from Babylon 5 to Star Wars...damn...I didn't want that to happen actually...Image IPB