87 réponses à ce sujet

[TeffexPope]

It's embarassing to think that Bioware thought "I don't know" being Shepards last line, when we have Babylon 5 as a precedent, was the best idea. Same thing, basically. Obviously an ancient race of some sort created the reapers. They might be dead now, or they might have been reaper-ized into Harbinger, but their solution doesn't work anymore. For there to be any other ending in the game other than the destruction of the reapers, or them being convinced perhaps by their catalyst AI that they need to go away, is embarassing. No need for Shepard to die, and he gets to tell the Catalyst to shove it and forces it to do things his way.

Modifié par TeffexPope, 03 mai 2012 - 11:51 .

[edisnooM]

TeffexPope wrote...

It's embarassing to think that Bioware thought "I don't know" being Shepards last line, when we have Babylon 5 as a precedent, was the best idea. Same thing, basically. Obviously an ancient race of some sort created the reapers. They might be dead now, or they might have been reaper-ized into Harbinger, but their solution doesn't work anymore. For there to be any other ending in the game other than the destruction of the reapers, or them being convinced perhaps by their catalyst AI that they need to go away, is embarassing. No need for Shepard to die, and he gets to tell the Catalyst to shove it and forces it to do things his way.

Actually Shepards last words were "And there will be peace?", just a bit of nitpicking, sorry.

[Norrax]

OP you and this post are awesome!

[Apathy1989]

Babylon 5 is fantastic, and this suggestion that the end of the shadow war should have been emulated has been made by myself and many others over past months.

Shesh after all of Shepards stupid speeches, you'd think he'd have a good yell at the star child.

[2484Stryker]

zambingo wrote...

RShara wrote...

Yeah that type of confrontation would have made sooooooooooooooooooo much more sense. GTFO of our galaxy!
We reject you. We reject what you stand for. Your solution is irrelevant. Our lives are ours!

That's how I look at the Destroy ending.

The destroy ending is a poor mimic of a real rejection.  It's still a choice given by the star brat.  You don't know why you should believe him that it will actually destroy the Reapers, nor can you challenge him on why all synthetics must die.

[D1ck1e]

Loved that serie! Took me a couple of episodes, but it grew on me so fast. I was really sad when it ended, but they ended it with class.

[B33ker]

I've been a B5 fan since the original pilot episode, even with all its very rough edges.

JMS did amazing things with the series when you consider how the networks kept jerking him around with whether or not he'd get to do the next season.  "Sleeping in Light" was filmed at the end of Season 4 when they didn't know if they'd get a Season 5, then bumped to the end of Season 5 once it was approved at the very last moment.  In a way that worked out because it meant the very last episode had Claudia in it, losing her hurt Season 5 a lot IMHO.

I bet JMS could salvage the ME3 ending better than the BW writers will.  Some of the things he did in B5 were amazing and still enthrall me when I rewatch all 5 seasons back to back at least once a year.

[FS3D]

 I can just imagine Sheridan talking his way past the star-child with a similar speech.

[Kunari801]

I loved B5 too, and that episode was epic. It was certainly much better than the ending we got in ME3 with a timid Shepard playing sheep to the Reaper King.

[Vox Draco]

2484Stryker wrote...

zambingo wrote...

RShara wrote...

Yeah that type of confrontation would have made sooooooooooooooooooo much more sense. GTFO of our galaxy!
We reject you. We reject what you stand for. Your solution is irrelevant. Our lives are ours!

That's how I look at the Destroy ending.

The destroy ending is a poor mimic of a real rejection.  It's still a choice given by the star brat.  You don't know why you should believe him that it will actually destroy the Reapers, nor can you challenge him on why all synthetics must die.

That's basically the problem that was brought up in many discussions. I prefer to destrro, but even this is still follwoing the Reaper's way of thinking, which I and Shepard really find disgusting...

The "Sheridan" option would have been to talk some sense into the Catalyst. Show him how you have changed the galaxy within a couple of years, made peace with the Geth (if you actually did it, of course) or simply how his point of view does NOT and NEVER will justify the "harvesting aka destruction of entire races!

The fourth option would have been to tell the catalyst that you are NOT playing his game. The fourth option would have given us, the players, this feeling of getting in control of Shepards and our galaxy's fate again.

But with the current ones, all we feel like is that the catalyst determines this fate, and naturally only very few players will ever feel comfortable with this. Mass Effect is about Shepard, about his/her way to achieve something, and the game should acknowledge this until the end.

P.S. I edited the first post and added two youtube-links to the conversion, if you want to see Bruce Boxleitner talking some sense into those "higher beings"...

[U7tra]

Thornne wrote...

But it was so ... conventional. I mean, look at that ending. What you saw and heard made logical sense. It is presented clearly and concisely to the audience. It explains the motivations of the elder races in a way anyone can understand. BORING!

Where's the speculation? Where is the beautiful, glorious uncertainty, or the yawning plot holes, all daring you to overcome them? B5's ending was for kids. And we're MUCH too sophisticated for something like that.

People will never be talking about the ending to B5 years later. Too traditional.

(Sarcasm mode: off)
Still love B5. What a run that was.

^^Awesome.

[johhnytrash]

The5Virtues wrote...

“If only, if only," the woodpecker sighs,
"The bark on the tree was as
soft as the skies."
While the wolf waits below, hungry and lonely,
Crying to the moo-oo-oon, "If only, If only.”

I've come to accept that a scene as epic as that is simply beyond the reach of ME3's writing team.

I disagree. The Tuchunka mission and the Rannoch mission and the ME2 ending show they know how to make a triumphant ending. They just decided to make a wack ending for some reason.

[Peranor]

Thornne wrote...

But it was so ... conventional. I mean, look at that ending. What you saw and heard made logical sense. It is presented clearly and concisely to the audience. It explains the motivations of the elder races in a way anyone can understand. BORING!

Where's the speculation? Where is the beautiful, glorious uncertainty, or the yawning plot holes, all daring you to overcome them? B5's ending was for kids. And we're MUCH too sophisticated for something like that.

People will never be talking about the ending to B5 years later. Too traditional.

(Sarcasm mode: off)
Still love B5. What a run that was.

[Grammarye]

Password to destroy Reapers: Peekaboo.

B5 will always have a special place in my heart for the key story telling it did. It may have been rushed, it may have been in danger of being cancelled, season 4 transitioning to 5 may have gone awry thanks to network idiots, but damn if it didn't have a great story well told & executed. I honestly don't understand how anyone can watch G'Kar's 'ant speech' (which also ties into that same sort of ancient species mythos) and not call that great acting.

Funnily enough as I watched the ME3 ending, I recalled B5 and thought 'that would have been a much better ending'. Looking back at the entire game from the eyes of the Catalyst it almost entirely mirrored the Vorlon/Shadow concepts except here was one ancient synthetic convinced of the right way to do things - and like an idiot, we didn't pull a Sheridan and say 'we reject you & your choices'.

Modifié par Grammarye, 04 mai 2012 - 05:51 .

[Vox Draco]

Grammarye wrote...

Password to destroy Reapers: Peekaboo.

B5 will always have a special place in my heart for the key story telling it did. It may have been rushed, it may have been in danger of being cancelled, season 4 transitioning to 5 may have gone awry thanks to network idiots, but damn if it didn't have a great story well told & executed. I honestly don't understand how anyone can watch G'Kar's 'ant speech' (which also ties into that same sort of ancient species mythos) and not call that great acting.

Funnily enough as I watched the ME3 ending, I recalled B5 and thought 'that would have been a much better ending'. Looking back at the entire game from the eyes of the Catalyst it almost entirely mirrored the Vorlon/Shadow concepts except here was one ancient synthetic convinced of the right way to do things - and like an idiot, we didn't pull a Sheridan and say 'we reject you & your choices'.

The ironic thing about ME and B5 are all those similarities, for good and bad...

I mean, B5  was clearly one huge ispiration for the ME-series, tehre is hardly any doubt about this. Much more than Star Wars or Star trek, as far as I am concerned. Let's see what we have in B5:

Humans are newcomers in galactic society, yet have become quite infuential and powerful, in military, diplomatics, economy

Humans have made an almost fatal first contact with one of the most powerful races (minbari), that ultimately lead to war and almsot to the annihilation of the human race

B5 is a huge space-station meant to be neutral ground for all races to meet, discuss and negotiate to preserve peace in the galaxy, and there is a council on board consisting of the five most powerful races (though it is not a government),

Technology is not that advanced as in Star Trek and rather believable (no transporters and tech-talk)

Hyper-Jumpgates are all over the galaxy, and are of strategic importance (though not the origin of an elder race)

An ancient race is meddling in the affairs of the younger races, using "indoctrinated agents" and "huskified" telepath to pilot their ships.

Cmdr. john sheridan tries everything to convince the races of the shadow-threat and to unify them to fight this menace.

And greedy network idiots can't see the potential of the series and what it is about, and are cutting budget and forcing the producers to rush the series, compromising their artistic integrity for the sake of short-sighted profit

I hate how history repeats itself sometimes...

[Relshar]

Naoe wrote...

...always got the job done with limited resources, good captain. Bit of a cloaka though. Loved his speeches...

Also a easter egg about B5. Its a line used about Sheridan when he makes his first appearance in B5. Made me smile when I heard it.

I agree with the OP on this one.

[SolidisusSnake1]

I finally decided to watch this show due to the urging of others and after seeing this thread when I got to this scene I laughed. Partly because I found another cheat sheet BioWare was working off of and partly because the scene was exactly what we should have gotten in the game.

I dont understand how BioWare can riff off of so many great sci-fi movies and games but fail to properly grasp the meaning behind each of them. They wanna have Ancient Races and a Cycle of Order v. Chaos (Babylon 5) but refuse to fully explain it or let us choose. They wanna have a theme of Synthetics v. Organics (Battlestar Galactica) but failed to ever make it a primary conflict or allow the ability to peacefully co-exist with one another. They wanna have a theme of Control and Technology (Deus Ex) but fail to have ever built this theme throughout the series or make the consequences different enough so our end decision matters.

I mean geez you would think with a mix of some of the greatest sci-fi stories ever that the end would be the greatest thing ever, yet it fails so bad.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Troglyte wrote...

That's because B5 was/is art and ME3 is a consumer product.

Gold

And yeah, B5 FTW. Maybe because they actually planned out how it will end before when they even started making it. True story, whole "core plotline" aka Writer's Bible of B5 was made before show started to be made - and all episode writers had to follow this general line, this greatly reduced contradictions due to writers changing, etc.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 09 mai 2012 - 09:14 .

[MzAdventure]

Babylon 5 is hands-down my all time favorite entertainment of any kind.

The planned story arc, hints developed into events, careful plotting, AMAZING dialog, and things making narrative sense has spoiled everything else for me, though. Most things pale in comparison - nothing else has seemed to pay off on the promise the way B5 did.

I can't believe that the ME3 writers were still trying to figure out the end in late 2011. How could they NOT have the thing planned out from the start? Sure, small parts of the story structure will change as things are being actualized, but the main plot? That should have been nailed down from the start. And the original PLAYS like it was. It is part of the reason I fell in love with the game - hints of shadowy things and danger to come.

In the end, the Mass Effect series is summed up like this: a crushing disappointment after such a promising beginning and middle.

Modifié par victoriakm, 10 mai 2012 - 01:35 .

[kobayashi-maru]

A lot of fans didn't like the resolution to the shadow war at first. It was only after JMS stated that it couldn't be won conventionally you had to think your way out of it, then mentioned the fight for Earth was opposite with space battles and a genuine fight to Earth.

The alternate version of the ending would be five minutes before everyone dies, Lorien turns up with no backstory or introduction, gives vague information which tells you nothing then resolves the conflict via massive space weapon that sends galaxy into galactic dark age - as stated by JMS himself - before it's revealed later by other staff writers that the fans are confused and just didn't get the fact that there is no galactic dark age and have no idea where they got the idea in first place

Or it's like BSG where most hate the God did it ending for not fitting, despite fact it was practically spelt out to viewer through-out season one.

I'm still crossing fingers and toes for EC though maybe Mike Gamble can pull it all together to make sense. On a side note I love the fact they kept multiplayer within the narrative and didn't go Vs mode, encouraging genuine co-operation between players, so I apologise for my negative view on MP before release.

And until the Charr poem made me want whoever wrote it to write my epitaph, my favourite quote ever was "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He
is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be
somewhere else!". I love that scene.

Modifié par kobayashi-maru, 10 mai 2012 - 04:26 .

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Vox Draco wrote...

pjotroos wrote...

Babylon 5 in general is one of the most magnificent works of sci-fi I've ever experienced. Resolution of that plot line was one particular punch-the-air moment, the end of the civil war on Earth another. The final episode is just sublime. If only more were as dedicated to their stories as JMS - crazy bastard wrote 40-odd episodes in a row all by himself, then another dozen or so after a single breather - from friggin Neil Gaiman!!

Yes, I think Babylon 5 truly is one of the best SciFi series ever created (Take this, Sheldon Cooper!)

Yet what I find particularly funny about this dialogue and how it was used to solve the Great Shadow War is...that it wasn't actually planned to be like that. At least they didn't want to end this story-arc so quickly.

Originally they wanted to finish the Shadow-arc at the end of season 4, and dedicate the fifth season to "retake Earth" from the fascists. But due to budget reasons they beleived there would be no fifth season, so the end of the Shadow war feels kinda...rushed...sounds familiar?

And still...though maybe a little "anti-climatic" (like sending the Borg simply to sleep), it is still a strong piece of dialogue, I think.

And yes, JMS and Gaimann...couldn't they do the EC?

The thing is - JMS sat down and planned out the story. From A - Z before he started looking for someone interested enough to proudce the SF series. He knew what he wanted and he tried his best to work around the problems that cropped up. The finished product shines despite the obstacles because he was at the helm all the while. Can't say the same for the ME trilogy. After finishing ME 3; I felt as if no one was helming the vessel because there was no helmsman, no map and no stars to steer the ship by.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 10 mai 2012 - 04:30 .

[Aleru]

mass effect 3 ending was intended to be this way...i believe or want to believe. They wanted to mimic B5 but not copy it.
They changed a few things, but they didnt make it right.
There is a discussion with a higher being. There are the choices of the higher beings... and there is your choice.
Your choice is destruction, all along the game. No matter how YOU player think. Thats the goal of the entire game, to become a galaxy free of the reapers influence.
You know that controlling them is impossible. You know that reaching an apex in evolution is impossible.
You know that destroying them is the only option. You cant argue with the reapers... at least you will never be able to show them that your idea is the right one, they wont hear to you. Thats the difference between vorlons shadows and reapers.
And perhaps thats why the ending failed to comunicate what it wanted to comunicate.

I like the ending as it is, or at least the idea behind it. But i dont wuite agree with the way they did the ending. A few tweaks and the ending will be perfect.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Aleru wrote...

They wanted to mimic B5 but not copy it.

I would be very disappointed in this case. Weren't smart enough to invent own good conclusion? 

[kobayashi-maru]

Aleru wrote...

mass effect 3 ending was intended to be this way...i believe or want to believe. They wanted to mimic B5 but not copy it.
They changed a few things, but they didnt make it right.
There is a discussion with a higher being. There are the choices of the higher beings... and there is your choice.
Your choice is destruction, all along the game. No matter how YOU player think. Thats the goal of the entire game, to become a galaxy free of the reapers influence.
You know that controlling them is impossible. You know that reaching an apex in evolution is impossible.
You know that destroying them is the only option. You cant argue with the reapers... at least you will never be able to show them that your idea is the right one, they wont hear to you. Thats the difference between vorlons shadows and reapers.
And perhaps thats why the ending failed to comunicate what it wanted to comunicate.

I like the ending as it is, or at least the idea behind it. But i dont wuite agree with the way they did the ending. A few tweaks and the ending will be perfect.

I have to say I love your explanation, unfortunetly a lot of ME devs subscribe to synthesis ending and really look at destroy as bad ending.