533 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

wsandista wrote...

What is your problem with characters who just aren't intrested in both genders?

They're straight or they're trivial.

ME 3 showed us exactly what a same-sex only romance looks like: not a full companion and tangential to the story.

[jlb524]

Maria Caliban wrote...

wsandista wrote...

What is your problem with characters who just aren't intrested in both genders?

They're straight or they're trivial.

ME 3 showed us exactly what a same-sex only romance looks like: not a full companion and tangential to the story.

Ah yah, that's my fear for 'gay only' DA LIs too.

In the past, even bisexual characters haven't been as important to the story (or had as much content) as straight ones (DA:O for example).

[wsandista]

jlb524 wrote...

wsandista wrote...
There you go again, It seems that you don't like the thought of having LIs with different sexualities. What is your problem with characters who just aren't intrested in both genders? 

I've stated that's it's fine in a setting in which sexuality is an issue and the writers decide to explore those issue via LIs characters with different sexualities.  I don't see the benefit of depicting different sexualities in a setting where it doesn't matter over the benefit of giving people choices.

wsandista wrote... 

Yes certain romances should only be for certain PCs. A male PC should not be able to be in a relationship with a lesbian chracater because she is not intrested in him. A blood mage PC should not have a righteous Templar as an LI. 

You still fail to answer what I asked you and keep going back to this point over and over again. 

This is what I asked:

jlb524 wrote...
I also asked 'even if it means someone's versimilitude is ruined'...and you said...'yes'.

Then I asked why it's different with 'all bi' then?  Why not give options even if versimilitude is sacrificed?

It seems odd to give people who want to do homosexual romances limited options when compared to heterosexual ones (like, DA:O).

"Oh you can have romances...just not these special ones over here...those aren't for you."

You keep saying a male PC shouldn't be able to romance a lesbian character.

Okay.

That's completely unrelated.

wsandista wrote...  
Why is it wrong for possible LIs not to be attracted to the PC?

 

I'm not saying it's wrong...I just don't see the point of limiting LIs (who exist to be romanced in the first place) when it's not needed to depict 'show us something cool' about the story/setting/etc. 

From some of Zevrans comments homosexuality is looked down upon in some parts of Thedas(I believe he was talking about Antiva or Ferelden, I'll have to replay DAO to verify) Gamlen makes some snide comments if you are in a homosexual romance(To be fair he makes snide comments about all relationships, the ones about homosexual seem to be more venomous though). While both protagonists can engage in homosexual relationships, there is no indication that homosexuality is generally accepted by the Chantry or the general population. It remains to be seen exactly how homosexuality is viewed in Thedas as a whole, and having a homosexual(not bi) party member could give you a good idea. All characters so far that engage in homosexual relationships are quite outside the norm of society(not for being homosexual, but for a multitude of different reasons), especially LIs.

You can have the party be all bisexual, you can have all the LIs be bisexual, you can have all of Ferelden be bisexual, but while it breaks verisimilitude(and it is ok to answer your question, just not preferable), it also does not represent gays and lesbians. Think about it, if two people (one bisexual, one homosexual) are both living in a society where homosexuality is frowned upon, who has it worse? A bisexual could always pursue the opposite sex because that feels natural to them, while a homosexual can not publicly romance partners they would be intrested in without incurring the wrath of society.

Some variety with the sexual orientation of your LIs would be preferable to having every LI be attracted to the PC no matter who the PC is, IMO. This can get players to replay the game as a new character who is completly different. Is it somewhat unfair to those who only play through a game once, perhaps, but I think it rewards those who create different PCs and play through the game multiple times. 

As far as creating an equall number of each, do it like this
2 bisexual women, 2 bisexual men 
1 homesexual woman, 1 homosexual man 
1 herterosexual woman, 1 herterosexual man
Male PCs have 3 heteroseual romance options, 3 homosexual, Female PCs have the same amount, everyone wins(assuming of course that the gender exclusive LIs are well written)

[dragonflight288]

And I don't recall Dawn Star getting any more content than the others; only played JE once though, so I could be wrong on that one.

I haven't played any Bioware games previous to those though, so I can't comment on them.

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, there were three love interests. Bastila for a male character, Carth for a female character, and Juhani for a female character (creating an alien, lesbo romance)

Jade Empire: Sky is romanceable by both male and female, is integral to the story, but it's dang difficult if you want to guymance him. Silk Fox and Dawn Star are the main love interests of a male character, and the three of them may end up in a three-way relationship. Dawn Star can only be romanced if you're a male. Silk Fox can be romanced by male and female, but I heard the lesbian romance can be difficult. In addition, you can influence your love interests morality to the point where they are willing to let you enslave the souls of your companions, where they otherwise would object.

But no, Dawn Star got no more content than Silk Fox or Sky. All three had their own roles in the story and were fun companions.

[jlb524]

wsandista wrote...
From some of Zevrans comments homosexuality is looked down upon in some parts of Thedas(I believe he was talking about Antiva or Ferelden, I'll have to replay DAO to verify) Gamlen makes some snide comments if you are in a homosexual romance(To be fair he makes snide comments about all relationships, the ones about homosexual seem to be more venomous though). While both protagonists can engage in homosexual relationships, there is no indication that homosexuality is generally accepted by the Chantry or the general population. It remains to be seen exactly how homosexuality is viewed in Thedas as a whole, and having a homosexual(not bi) party member could give you a good idea. All characters so far that engage in homosexual relationships are quite outside the norm of society(not for being homosexual, but for a multitude of different reasons), especially LIs.

If they want to explore this issue, then by all means make a gay character with straight counterpart.

But if they don't?

wsandista wrote... 
You can have the party be all bisexual, you can have all the LIs be bisexual, you can have all of Ferelden be bisexual, but while it breaks verisimilitude(and it is ok to answer your question, just not preferable), it also does not represent gays and lesbians. Think about it, if two people (one bisexual, one homosexual) are both living in a society where homosexuality is frowned upon, who has it worse? A bisexual could always pursue the opposite sex because that feels natural to them, while a homosexual can not publicly romance partners they would be intrested in without incurring the wrath of society.

Again...they can represent homosexuality and also have a romance system that's open to gender (and allows for player choice.

Have a gay NPC that's not in the party.

Done.

Not sure why it has to be with an LI.

wsandista wrote...  
Some variety with the sexual orientation of your LIs would be preferable to having every LI be attracted to the PC no matter who the PC is, IMO. This can get players to replay the game as a new character who is completly different.

There are people who

1)  Don't replay the game or do many replays.
2)  People who do not want to play certain types of PCs (for example, I do not want to play a male PC).

There options will be limited for no good reason that I can see except 'just cuz'.

wsandista wrote...   
Is it somewhat unfair to those who only play through a game once, perhaps, but I think it rewards those who create different PCs and play through the game multiple times. 

It only rewards those that replay multiple times and don't care much about their PCs gender or the type of romance they play through.

wsandista wrote...    
As far as creating an equall number of each, do it like this
2 bisexual women, 2 bisexual men 
1 homesexual woman, 1 homosexual man 
1 herterosexual woman, 1 herterosexual man
Male PCs have 3 heteroseual romance options, 3 homosexual, Female PCs have the same amount, everyone wins(assuming of course that the gender exclusive LIs are well written)

I like that the answer to this 'all bi' issue is to throw more romances into the game to cover 'gay, bi, and straight' while also providing options...you do know that this would take a heck of a lot more resources?  And that the quality of romances in general would probably suffer?

If ME3 is any indication, the homosexual-only romances would probably suffer the most.

It's not an 'everyone wins' situation.

Well, the devs don't win.

People who's favorite LI is unavailable to them b/c of arbitrary gender restrictions don't win.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 mai 2012 - 05:59 .

[Maugrim]

Incoming wall of text/Word of God on the prevalence/acceptance/etc of homosexuality of Thedas by David Gaider from the old Dragon Age forums. I remember this thread and luckily it had been C+P elsewhere. I've snipped out the irrelvant bits but the full thread can be found here

For the TL; DR crowd: It's generally accepted, the people of Thedas don't have your irrational hangups so stop QQ'ing about this.

David Gaider wrote...

1) How common are non-hetero people in DA:O? Are we talking a somewhat larger, more casual number, ala Ancient Greece? Or a small minority, like in modern times?

The notion exists, though it is uncommon in Ferelden. Tradition demands that men and women marry, for the sake of their families and procreation if nothing else, and beyond that the personal matters one gets up to in one's bedroom are their own affair. Even so, there isn't a culture where such interests are commonly spoken of or where people of non-straight persuasion could find each other -- so it's largely rare. It would be a bit more prevalent in Orlais, where such practices are considered a quirk of character amongst the aristocracy.

2) Is non-hetero behavior generally regarded as odd, or revolting? Do people not care one way or another? Is it accepted? Is there some sort of gay subculture, sort of like how Nobleman could be gay, and nothing was really said about it?

In Ferelden it would be considered odd, but like Mary said the Chantry is far less judgemental of such matters than the Catholic church was in our own history. Even so, the forms must be observed. If such practices occur, they are generally done in secret and considered distasteful when made public (at least, when it comes to those from whom respectability is expected -- married folks and those with families).

4) Is marriage an institution invented for the purpose of merging assets and families? Is marriage dictated by the Chantry? Is marriage simply about 'love', or has it evolved from it's original purpose to one of 'love'?

The Chantry considers it a matter of tradition and practicality, and a holy bond between man and woman. Love need not enter the picture, and indeed is often thought to not be necessary. The Andrastian ideal states that love in marriage is something worth striving for.

7) Gay marriage?

No. Not to get political on the subject, but regardless of my support for the idea of gay marriage in our society I think it would feel pretty anachronistic to include such a concept in our setting. I doubt it's something that would even occur to people in Thedas, regardless of their orientation.

Would they encourage mages to be gay (like some ancient cultures did with their warriors) so there isn't a possibility of children?

That's an excellent question. I would say that mages are far more free to act as they wish, as by and large they are beyond "normal" social mores. Even putting aside the question of homosexuality, mages are likely more sexually promiscuous in general.

Funnily enough, an inter-racial relationship would probably raise a few more eyebrows than an same-gender relationship.

Fereldans think such behavior unusual -- the sort that would make them scratch their head, as it's just not something they're exposed to as people are in Orlais -- but you're unlikely to see Andrastians condemning it. They just see traditional practices such as marriage to be more important, and sexual behavior of ANY kind is something that should be something done in private.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 04 mai 2012 - 06:56 .

[slashthedragon]

I am still waiting to see which big name game company/game title will be the first to have a leading homosexual character. And I mean like Tidus and Yuna leads (FFX), not some character nobody uses. There were supposedly rumors that Noctis was homosexual (FF13 versus) but who knows whatever happened with that game.
sigh...I wish I owned a video game company

Modifié par slashthedragon, 04 mai 2012 - 07:59 .

[Deviija]

Thanks for posting that, Makenzie.

All this chatter about representing sexual and sexuality oppression as is done in real-life because it is 'realistic' or 'interesting' really is depressing. Whether it is being a woman or being gay or being non-white, it is in no way enjoyable to play through oppression, rejection, prejudice, bigotry, or any such thing in a video game that a player actually has to face in daily life. This is about enjoyment and escapism and heroic fantasy for all players, not enjoyment and escapism and heroic fantasy only for the privileged who get to have privilege and the minorities continue to be oppressed.

It isn't novel or new or interesting or different. Personally, I do not see the appeal of ruining anyone's fun with potentially harmful, negative, or altogether un-fun portrayals of theme and world-building and crafted social stigmas. I want everyone to have the right and freedom to enjoy the game. But if you are a person that is so dead-set on wanting sexuality oppression, then volunteer up the majority -- make it heterosexuality that is looked down upon and treated with disdain. Not so fun now, huh?

[Vaeliorin]

Deviija wrote...
make it heterosexuality that is looked down upon and treated with disdain. Not so fun now, huh?

Actually, I'd like that if it could be made to make sense (basically, if you can someone get around the whole heterosexual sex needed for reproduction bit, otherwise it would be weird.)  One of my favorite homebrew settings is one where humanity is an oppressed majority (the gnomes are in charge and the dwarves work for them, and together they control the wealth and military might of the setting.)

Granted, I don't know that it would be everyone's cup of tea, and it really wouldn't work in DA as it's an already established setting, but it's something that I'd enjoy, if only because it was something different.

[slashthedragon]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Actually, I'd like that if it could be made to make sense (basically, if you can someone get around the whole heterosexual sex needed for reproduction bit, otherwise it would be weird.) 

One way might be that there are just too many people and not enough resources.  People who reproduced would be hated for bringing others into a world/city/etc that could not support them.  That could set up for heterosexuality as not being desirable (unless there is some kind of medieval birth control that actually worked).

Modifié par slashthedragon, 04 mai 2012 - 08:29 .

[Deviija]

Vaeliorin wrote...
 (basically, if you can someone get around the whole heterosexual sex needed for reproduction bit, otherwise it would be weird.)  

Hey, if there's one thing fantasy teaches it is: Magic can do everything.  Just like in sci-fi, SCIENCE! can do everything.  ;P  There need not be any requirement for two people to have sex to have a baby.  Also, aliens/non-humans as LIs.  Asari can touch you and have babies without needing any sexytime to happen, so.    Plenty of ways 'around' the reproduction parts.  But I digress.

(Also, heterosexuality does not equal reproduction. It's just a sexuality.  Just like sex does not equal reproduction.  Hatred of the sexuality, not reproduction; very separate things.)

Modifié par Deviija, 04 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[AkiKishi]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Deviija wrote...
make it heterosexuality that is looked down upon and treated with disdain. Not so fun now, huh?

Actually, I'd like that if it could be made to make sense (basically, if you can someone get around the whole heterosexual sex needed for reproduction bit, otherwise it would be weird.)  One of my favorite homebrew settings is one where humanity is an oppressed majority (the gnomes are in charge and the dwarves work for them, and together they control the wealth and military might of the setting.)

Granted, I don't know that it would be everyone's cup of tea, and it really wouldn't work in DA as it's an already established setting, but it's something that I'd enjoy, if only because it was something different.

That would be kind of interesting in a near future (DX) style setting. Doubt it would go down too well though because you would be killing gay people in droves. It would also mean a straight protagonist since there is very little point to such a game unless you are in the role of the underdog.

[AkiKishi]

slashthedragon wrote...

I am still waiting to see which big name game company/game title will be the first to have a leading homosexual character. And I mean like Tidus and Yuna leads (FFX), not some character nobody uses. There were supposedly rumors that Noctis was homosexual (FF13 versus) but who knows whatever happened with that game.
sigh...I wish I owned a video game company

In Final Fantasy VII Cloud can go on a date with Barret (the same date as he can go on with Aeris,Tiffa and Yufie).
In one of the Tails games there is a BL pairing, think there is one in the Star Ocean games too. The word Fujoshi tells you pretty much everything you need to know about the general mainstream view.

[slashthedragon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
In Final Fantasy VII Cloud can go on a date with Barret (the same date as he can go on with Aeris,Tiffa and Yufie).
In one of the Tails games there is a BL pairing, think there is one in the Star Ocean games too. The word Fujoshi tells you pretty much everything you need to know about the general mainstream view.

With Cloud/Barrett, there is still nothing after that, and most people are either for Cloud/Aeris, Cloud/Tifa or (my fave, from Dissidia) Cloud/Terra.  Haven't played the other games you mentioned--are the characters considered leads or close to leads?

[AkiKishi]

slashthedragon wrote...

With Cloud/Barrett, there is still nothing after that, and most people are either for Cloud/Aeris, Cloud/Tifa or (my fave, from Dissidia) Cloud/Terra.  Haven't played the other games you mentioned--are the characters considered leads or close to leads?

Aeris and Tiffa are relatively easy which is why they are the most common. Party members so they are around a lot,it's not quite the same deal since everyone tends to talk to talk in cutscenes unlike DA/ME where it's generally your character.

As I said in the other post, plenty of BL/Yuri games, but not in the mainstream.
 

[slashthedragon]

BobSmith101 wrote...

As I said in the other post, plenty of BL/Yuri games, but not in the mainstream.
 

Yes, not in the mainstream, and that bothers me.  I mean, one day there will be, right...?
I still remember how shocked and happy I was (as a kid) when Samus Aran turned out
to be female, which was practically unheard of back then.  Hope I live to see a homosexual
character as a lead in a RPG or just *any* game (and not portrayed stereotypically).

[rolson00]

i think new charectars for da3 no old ones, as for romances i think done sensibly like in da:o, like morrigan was stright but leliana and zeveran were bi,

[AkiKishi]

Nyoka wrote...
Tangentially related - this is the same reason why people who haven't experienced much loss are more likely to enjoy companions having scripted, unavoidable deaths for the sake of drama.

Even if you don't enjoy it.If it makes for a better story then it should be done. The death of Aeris was pivitol moment of FFVII (for most people). The game was better for it.

Unless avoiding it requires a LOT of effort , not just a couple of clicks then I have no real objections. But the suicide mission was far too easy to mitigate without any real effort.
Suikoden V would be a good example, in order to avoid losing the Princess friend you need to have a complete roster and done several things via dialogue.

[slashthedragon]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Even if you don't enjoy it.If it makes for a better story then it should be done. The death of Aeris was pivitol moment of FFVII (for most people). The game was better for it.

While I do agree with your point about Aeris' death, I think it was more about S-E having the balls to kill off a playable character halfway through the game.  That just wasn't done at the time.
Now, I feel death for drama's sake is used far too much.  Plus, as someone who has enough of loss in RL, I'd rather not have death just for dramatic effect, it would really have to be something extremely integrel to the story.  Video games = escape from reality, and yes I want my happy ending.  That's also why I don't want cameos from past DAs, becuase there is always a risk they'll be killed off.

Modifié par slashthedragon, 04 mai 2012 - 10:33 .

[AkiKishi]

slashthedragon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

As I said in the other post, plenty of BL/Yuri games, but not in the mainstream.
 

Yes, not in the mainstream, and that bothers me.  I mean, one day there will be, right...?
I still remember how shocked and happy I was (as a kid) when Samus Aran turned out
to be female, which was practically unheard of back then.  Hope I live to see a homosexual
character as a lead in a RPG or just *any* game (and not portrayed stereotypically).

Probably not. Japanese RPGs are rife with female leads, or male/female shared leads. Final Fantasy has been doing that for a very long time. It's the same sort of thing as Lara Croft, some people see her as a strong woman, others see her as objectifying women. Guys who play the game like to stare at her ass.  As such a female protagonist still offers something to a male purchaser, even if that something is very different.

I'll play female characters and do lesbian romances purely because its fantasy. On the other hand I will not play a female character and do a male romance, that's too weird for me.

One of the often raised criticisms of JRPGS is the male leads are too effeminate. That being the case I don't thing an openly gay lead would go down well. Lesbian lead, sure but being a guy I  have a very clear double standard there.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mai 2012 - 10:37 .

[slashthedragon]

BobSmith101 wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

As I said in the other post, plenty of BL/Yuri games, but not in the mainstream.
 

Yes, not in the mainstream, and that bothers me.  I mean, one day there will be, right...?
I still remember how shocked and happy I was (as a kid) when Samus Aran turned out
to be female, which was practically unheard of back then.  Hope I live to see a homosexual
character as a lead in a RPG or just *any* game (and not portrayed stereotypically).

Probably not. Japanese RPGs are rife with female leads, or male/female shared leads. Final Fantasy has been doing that for a very long time. It's the same sort of thing as Lara Croft, some people see her as a strong woman, others see her as objectifying women. Guys who play the game like to stare at her ass.  As such a female protagonist still offers something to a male purchaser, even if that something is very different.

I'll play female characters and do lesbian romances purely because its fantasy. On the other hand I will not play a female character and do a male romance, that's too weird for me.

One of the often raised criticisms of JRPGS is the male leads are too effeminate. That being the case I don't thing an openly gay lead would go down well. Lesbian lead, sure but being a guy I  have a very clear double standard there.

lol so I'll die first?
I think there would have to be a greater instance of women and/or gays in the video game industry before anything major would ever happen.  In such a male dominated profession and in such a male dominated market, things like scantily clad women and lesbians are seen as something men want on their screens.  Same with comics.  AND DAMN IF I HAVEN'T BEEN TRYING TO GET INTO BOTH FIELDS SINCE I WAS 12. </sorry>