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Dragon Age 3-Romances need to make a roaring come back: Part 2


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#51
wsandista

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Red_Sonja wrote...

So is Anders’ Karl conversation exclusive to the gay relationship path? Moreover, is Anders sexuality actually determined by the gender I choose to play? If so that’s a shame and an argument in support of having LI's with a single, clearly defined, sexual preference.


Exactly, Zevran and Leliana romances played mostly the same way (few variations in party banter, and Oghren faints at the Pearl if a female warden and Leliana have sex with Isabela) but Anders is almost a completely different romance with a male or a female. Bi-sexual LI's should have mostly the same romance with either sex.

#52
the_one_54321

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RinjiRenee wrote...
It is not a mini-game unless you also consider all dialogue options and persuasion-checks and what not to also be a mini-game.

It was moreso a mini game in DA:O, with the gift system. In DAII, it seems like it just lacks much content.

RinjiRenee wrote...
Your preference is for there to be no dialogue choices in the game, am I correct?

No.

#53
upsettingshorts

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wsandista wrote...

@RenjiRenee the reason I do not want what "relationship/character-builidng scenes" is the same reason I do not want an arena or multiplayer mode: it will take the focus on what I buy DA games for, a role-playing expierence. It'senough for me to know that my PC and their LI are having sex, I don't need to see scens for it, I'm more intrested in the story of the romance. Before you jump on me I don't mean that all you want is to see sex scenes, I just didn't know how to slip "date scene" into the statement without it reading awkwardly.


Date scenes are not sex scenes.  Date scenes also provide characterization.  For evidence of this, check out videos from Mass Effect 3 and compare Garrus, Kaidan, Ashley, Liara, etc "dates" when romanced versus not.  They're different and give a different experience.  They also provide opportunities for roleplaying.

It seems as if you want to set a Romance Active flag and then... what changes?  If not unlocking different scenes and dialogue.

#54
upsettingshorts

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wsandista wrote...

 Bi-sexual LI's should have mostly the same romance with either sex.


Why?  

#55
Rinji the Bearded

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wsandista wrote...

If I may butt in...


You may.

wsandista wrote...

@RenjiRenee the reason I do not want what "relationship/character-builidng scenes" is the same reason I do not want an arena or multiplayer mode: it will take the focus on what I buy DA games for, a role-playing expierence. It'senough for me to know that my PC and their LI are having sex, I don't need to see scens for it, I'm more intrested in the story of the romance. Before you jump on me I don't mean that all you want is to see sex scenes, I just didn't know how to slip "date scene" into the statement without it reading awkwardly.


You have misplaced concern.  Multiplayer content is almost always developed by a different team.  There's no zots labeled "resources" that the developers have to watch, either.   I can agree with you about the sex scenes but that's sort of off topic and another matter altogether that I'm not comfortable discussing here (off-topic).   The fact of the matter is that the romance content is and will always be optional content, and there's no need for anyone to worry that the story itself is going to suffer because the developers decided to add a scene where the PC takes their LI out on a date.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 02 mai 2012 - 07:29 .


#56
wsandista

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

wsandista wrote...

@RenjiRenee the reason I do not want what "relationship/character-builidng scenes" is the same reason I do not want an arena or multiplayer mode: it will take the focus on what I buy DA games for, a role-playing expierence. It'senough for me to know that my PC and their LI are having sex, I don't need to see scens for it, I'm more intrested in the story of the romance. Before you jump on me I don't mean that all you want is to see sex scenes, I just didn't know how to slip "date scene" into the statement without it reading awkwardly.


Date scenes are not sex scenes.  Date scenes also provide characterization.  For evidence of this, check out videos from Mass Effect 3 and compare Garrus, Kaidan, Ashley, Liara, etc "dates" when romanced versus not.  They're different and give a different experience.  They also provide opportunities for roleplaying.

It seems as if you want to set a Romance Active flag and then... what changes?  If not unlocking different scenes and dialogue.


I think I stressed that they were not, a date seems like an awkward concept for a Dark Fanstasy setting compared to a Sci-FI one, at least to me
But those scenes in ME3 are there whether you romance them or not, and regardless of choices made(excluding those that end in said characters death of course) I read "relationship/character-builidng scenes" to infer an extra scene awarded to the player if they pick the 'right" dialouge option. If I was mistaken in my asumption I apologize.

#57
wsandista

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RinjiRenee wrote...

wsandista wrote...

If I may butt in...


You may.

wsandista wrote...

@RenjiRenee the reason I do not want what "relationship/character-builidng scenes" is the same reason I do not want an arena or multiplayer mode: it will take the focus on what I buy DA games for, a role-playing expierence. It'senough for me to know that my PC and their LI are having sex, I don't need to see scens for it, I'm more intrested in the story of the romance. Before you jump on me I don't mean that all you want is to see sex scenes, I just didn't know how to slip "date scene" into the statement without it reading awkwardly.


You have misplaced concern.  Multiplayer content is almost always developed by a different team.  There's no zots labeled "resources" that the developers have to watch, either.   I can agree with you about the sex scenes but that's sort of off topic and another matter altogether that I'm not comfortable discussing here (off-topic).   The fact of the matter is that the romance content is and will always be optional content, and there's no need for anyone to worry that the story itself is going to suffer because the developers decided to add a scene where the PC takes their LI out on a date.


Well I must apolgize to you you friend, thank you for the clairification.

#58
upsettingshorts

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The scenes take place regardless, the character of them changes based on whether or not you were romancing them, basically.

Plus a "date" can be a lot of things. It depends on context.

#59
TEWR

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux:  It falls more into the whole "why does a host of bisexual LIs break versimilitude, yet any number of unrealistic things in the game do not" folder, does it not? That's not essentially homophobic, but I don't really get why it's a big deal.  Perhaps you can explain further.


That depends on how you define "any number of unrealistic things". For example, Magic and Dragons and the like -- while unrealistic for our world -- are realistic for Thedas.

But I suppose then this becomes a double standard/hypocrisy, because then one could counterargue that bisexual LIs is realistic for Thedas. So I won't say anything of the sort. Perhaps versimilitude is not the proper argument for why it shouldn't be done.

I don't have a problem with DAII's romances -- I chalk it up to circumstance bringing four bisexual people together, based on the information about them that we learn in both games -- but it's the concept of "In the future, this will be the standard" that is something I'm not an immediate supporter of.

I dunno. It's not going to be a gamebreaker for me at any time. It allows for more options, certainly. But there's just something about the concept that doesn't fly for me if it's applied to every romance option from here on out. Perhaps because it seems too -- and I'm loathe to even say this -- fanservice-like? Like I said, I'm loathe to say such a thing, because it's in poor taste for me to say stuff like that.

Maybe this could happen instead that preserves both the bisexuality of the companions in terms of options, but acts as a compromise between those who support it and those who don't support it.

Suppose gender played a part in what the sexual orientation of the LIs was. Not in such a way that it becomes PCsexual, but in such a way that it changes who they flirt with.

Example: Say when I meet Merrill as a Male Hawke, she flirts with Fenris in a little back and forth. But suppose when I play as a female Hawke, she flirts with Aveline instead.

And she's still able to be romanced by either gender, but her sexuality changes depending on the gender chosen.

This would only apply to characters whose bisexuality/backstory isn't well established -- which is why I use Merrill as an example -- but for characters like Isabela it would be wholly unnecessary.

I would see this as keeping the sexual orientation open. So if I'm playing a Female Hawke, I can romance Merrill because she's a lesbian, Isabela because she's bisexual, Anders because he's bisexual (I think Gaider said somewhere his relationship with Karl happened irrespective of whether or not it's mentioned), and Fenris because... well... he can't remember anything from his past life so the idea wouldn't apply to him. We'll say that because of his memory loss, he is completely open. That's what I do.

It would keep the idea of PCsexuality away as well, since the companions would be flirting with other people besides the PC. Even one banter or one line of dialogue would be enough. But I imagine this brings about its own set of issues -- zots being the least of which I imagine. It's a rough idea, but I think it could work.

At any rate, it's not going to be something that I'll be of the mind of other posters that go "NO!! My game is ruined with all bi LIs!".

It's just something that, for reasons I cannot pinpoint, doesn't sit well with me. But I can look past it in the end, so long as the romances themselves are well crafted, the story is engaging and well fleshed out, the gameplay is top-notch, and the companions are amazing.

It's minor when it comes down to it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mai 2012 - 07:56 .


#60
Red_Sonja

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Red_Sonja wrote...

So is Anders’ Karl conversation exclusive to the gay relationship path? Moreover, is Anders sexuality actually determined by the gender I choose to play? If so that’s a shame and an argument in support of having LI's with a single, clearly defined, sexual preference.


Word of God says that Anders is always bisexual, but since he doesn't mention Karl to FemHawke players are free to pretend otherwise.

(Source, source)

Considering how often people headcanon bigger things, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

Also, why is it a shame?  In what tangible ways is Anders' undermined by his bisexuality?  In what tangible ways would having a "defined sexual preference" have improved his character?



It’s a shame because an important part of Anders’ past is locked away from those playing a female protagonist. If Anders is bisexual, that conversation would be appropriate across all possible romance paths right? Moreover, having characters with clearly defined sexual preferences would mean that they wouldn’t have to reinvent themselves on the basis of the gender I happen to be playing, thus strengthening their own characterisation.

I mean, if Bioware really are serious about the idea of having 'iconic characters', I’d rather there were no discernable difference to something as fundamentally important as sexuality across different playthroughs. That said, if Anders is canonically Bisexual I can support their approach to him in DA2 (though the Karl conversation should have been made available to all).

#61
TEWR

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

The scenes take place regardless, the character of them changes based on whether or not you were romancing them, basically.

Plus a "date" can be a lot of things. It depends on context.


I support date scenes in future DA games. Stuff like Aveline's date. Or a night on the town with Merrill. Or even going to a fancy masquerade ball with Merrill.

They certainly can add to not only characterization, but story as well.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mai 2012 - 07:51 .


#62
Maria Caliban

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Red_Sonja wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I like the idea of having exclusive romances(not just by sex, but by choices, race, and class BTW). It just seems strange that the PC can get whoever they want, even if they are completely incompatible(Anders and Templar-supporting Hawke comes to mind). l also would like to see the PC being rejected once in a while.

Agreed. I’d like to see relationships in DA3 factor in things like religion, race, gender and class. I guess specialisations could play a part also (thinking specifically about blood magic). Anything that adds variety and depth to that dynamic would be of great value to me.

How many times do you replay a game? I ask this because I rarely play a game through completely more than once.

If there's one female romance who likes other women, but she's only interested in elven mages, that's the same as having no romance at all for me.

I have no problem with love interests rejecting me due to what I do in the game. If Fenris dumped someone who supported slavers, that would make sense to me. I'd rather not have a love interest lose interest in me due to choices made in character creation, before I've even met them.

#63
Red_Sonja

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Red_Sonja wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I like the idea of having exclusive romances(not just by sex, but by choices, race, and class BTW). It just seems strange that the PC can get whoever they want, even if they are completely incompatible(Anders and Templar-supporting Hawke comes to mind). l also would like to see the PC being rejected once in a while.

Agreed. I’d like to see relationships in DA3 factor in things like religion, race, gender and class. I guess specialisations could play a part also (thinking specifically about blood magic). Anything that adds variety and depth to that dynamic would be of great value to me.

How many times do you replay a game? I ask this because I rarely play a game through completely more than once.

If there's one female romance who likes other women, but she's only interested in elven mages, that's the same as having no romance at all for me.

I have no problem with love interests rejecting me due to what I do in the game. If Fenris dumped someone who supported slavers, that would make sense to me. I'd rather not have a love interest lose interest in me due to choices made in character creation, before I've even met them.



Yeah, I guess increasing the number of ways LI’s could reject you could easily become problematic. To answer your question, I replay some games a lot precisely because  I love to see how things play out when I approach things differently.

#64
Guest_Avejajed_*

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The sexuality of anyone should not matter. Period.

#65
Maria Caliban

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

wsandista wrote...

 Bi-sexual LI's should have mostly the same romance with either sex.

Why?  

Because it saves zots. :happy:

Honestly, it depends on the character. I don't see it making much of a difference with Fenris or Isabela. I wish Merrill had responded more to the gender of the PC than she did.

#66
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I've said this before and I'll say it again, all characters, interactive dialogs, conversations, cinematics and especially romances, need more depth. I want depth instead of breadth.

I really dislike Bioware romances, but I don't dislike romance arcs in general. Two of my favorite movies, Die Hard and Fight Club both have main romance themes and arcs. IMO, the problem with Bioware romances is that they are very shallow, awkward and unbelievable depictions of the flirting/courting process. I want Bioware to push the interactive dialog that makes their games so unique and significantly advance the depth of romances and romantic conversations.

I want to see a Bioware romance that is as believable as Loghain lecturing a room full of nobles or Shepard giving an inspiring speech to his crew.

I hope DA3 has fewer, but more sophisticated and believable romances than anything Bioware has done before.

Modifié par scyphozoa, 02 mai 2012 - 08:21 .


#67
Maria Caliban

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I've never seen Die Hard, but I'm not sure how Fight Club has a romance with sophistication or believability. Unless you're talking about Everyman/Tyler Durden.

#68
dracuella

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The scenes take place regardless, the character of them changes based on whether or not you were romancing them, basically.
Plus a "date" can be a lot of things. It depends on context.

I support date scenes in future DA games. Stuff like Aveline's date. Or a night on the town with Merrill. Or even going to a fancy masquerade ball with Merrill.

They certainly can add to not only characterization, but story as well.

.. do you have a thing for Merril, perchance? ;)

I think 'dates' could and would add to the story, since I to some extent think they're already there in DA2.

It may not be a traditional date where asked out and going for coffee, dinner and dance but visiting Fenris in his mansion, sharing a bottle of wine and even (if so desired) getting a little raunchy is a little bit like a date to me. 
(I should mention I'm Danish and no longer a teenager; dating was not in or done when it was really an option for me, so my interpretation of the word 'date' could be very different from that of, say, an American).

So I agree, more of those. They could even be done in a companion quest like fashion (I did very much enjoy running around after Aveline to see her make a complete arse of herself).

#69
Dakota Strider

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Every time I take my LI along to go "questing", its date night. What can be more romantic than bashing and stabbing bad guys and monsters?

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 02 mai 2012 - 08:43 .


#70
TEWR

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Guys, first rule of Fight Club. Image IPB

dracuella wrote...

.. do you have a thing for Merril, perchance? ;)


Is it that obvious? I thought I was keeping it well under wraps Image IPB.

schyphozoa wrote...

I've said this before and I'll say it again, all characters, interactive dialogs, conversations, cinematics and especially romances, need more depth. I want depth instead of breadth.


I agree. The more depth there is the better. The more there is to the romance, the better. I've found the Bioware romances to be plenty deep though, but I support having more stuff present.

Though having not seen Die Hard in a while, I'm not sure it's a valid way to say there's depth to the romance. I imagine the whole "Saving his ex-wife from Severus Snape" is what you meant.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mai 2012 - 08:50 .


#71
upsettingshorts

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I can't even wrap my head around the example of Die Hard as a good romance.

It's like an opinion an alien would have. I cannot even... my head hurts now. Especially when it's cited as having more depth than any BioWare romance. What does "depth" even mean then?

#72
Cantina

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Avejajed wrote...

The sexuality of anyone should not matter. Period.


This is pretty much how I feel. I could give two bits less what sex my companions prefer.

I only draw the line when the Anders/Karl relationship is hidden from the female Hawke. Its not about Anders sexuality, its about revealing information into his past. If you reveal such information to a male Hawke and not to a female Hawke, it creates confusion. So, if your male, it happened, but if your female it did not happen. Which is it?!

Information about a companion's past should be revealed to whatever sex you choose to play. It should be up to the player female or male to decide if hearing that information bothers them and to tell the companion that.

#73
upsettingshorts

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Cantina wrote...

I only draw the line when the Anders/Karl relationship is hidden from the female Hawke. Its not about Anders sexuality, its about revealing information into his past. If you reveal such information to a male Hawke and not to a female Hawke, it creates confusion. So, if your male, it happened, but if your female it did not happen. Which is it?!


It happened regardless, he just didn't want to tell Femhawke.

This is part of his character.  The question is why would he tell Manhawke but not Femhawke?  It's not about confusion but characterization.

Cantina wrote...

Information about a companion's past should be revealed to whatever sex you choose to play. It should be up to the player female or male to decide if hearing that information bothers them and to tell the companion that. 


But Anders made that decision.  

That's his character.  Why do you think that is?   

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 mai 2012 - 08:51 .


#74
Pasquale1234

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Upsettingshorts wrote...
I can't even wrap my head around the example of Die Hard as a good romance.


I'm not sure it was put forth as a good romance, only as a favorite film that contained a romance arc.

#75
TEWR

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Cantina wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

The sexuality of anyone should not matter. Period.


This is pretty much how I feel. I could give two bits less what sex my companions prefer.

I only draw the line when the Anders/Karl relationship is hidden from the female Hawke. Its not about Anders sexuality, its about revealing information into his past. If you reveal such information to a male Hawke and not to a female Hawke, it creates confusion. So, if your male, it happened, but if your female it did not happen. Which is it?!
Information about a companion's past should be revealed to whatever sex you choose to play. It should be up to the player female or male to decide if hearing that information bothers them and to tell the companion that.



While I'm not against Anders revealing that information, I have to wonder why he revealed it to someone he didn't know very well. It seemed.... odd.

At that point, their relationship was strictly business oriented. I don't mind Anders revealing it if Hawke pressed the issue, but revealing it immediately seemed... well... odd. It was pertinent then yes, because they just got back from killing him.

But I think that he should've revealed it only if Hawke asked about their friendship and if he was okay after having killed him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mai 2012 - 08:58 .