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Dragon Age 3-Romances need to make a roaring come back: Part 2


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#201
TEWR

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jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Consistency of their characterization. If Merrill's comment about the sexy Kossith warriors being gone only happened on one playthrough with one gender and not for the other, it does seem to tarnish who they are in the effort of giving the player solace on a playthrough.


Yesterday, didn't you say something to the effect that Merrill should hit on ladies in FemHawke's pt and dudes in ManHawke's pt?

Or maybe I misread something...these threads make my head hurt sometimes.



I did. But I've been mulling it over since then and I realized it was not as good an idea as I thought. Wulfram's post -- since it was the one I saw before Kidd's -- cemented that belief.

#202
eyesofastorm

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hoorayforicecream wrote...
I always took it as the game world telling me that non-heteronormative relationships in Thedas just aren't a big deal, or at most a little odd/different from the norm, like being a vegan.


Being vegan is way odder/differenter than being g... err... non-heteronormative.  

edit:  IMO

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 03 mai 2012 - 08:48 .


#203
upsettingshorts

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eyesofastorm wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I always took it as the game world telling me that non-heteronormative relationships in Thedas just aren't a big deal, or at most a little odd/different from the norm, like being a vegan.


Being vegan is way odder/differenter than being g... err... non-heteronormative.  

edit:  IMO


I'm way more intolerant of vegans, that's for sure.  I don't really apologize for it either.

So... he's got a point.

#204
slashthedragon

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Cantina wrote...

Image IPB



I'm just a bit confused...having a "male" spirit enter into your body makes you more open to being bi/gay?
...?????

Modifié par slashthedragon, 03 mai 2012 - 08:52 .


#205
Red_Sonja

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KiddDaBeauty wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm not gay, but even though I'm not I see DAII's system of all-bi characters as a way to allow everyone in the game to enjoy love interests while giving a nod to homosexuality, but not actually acknowledging or including it in the game in a big way. And that offends me a little. You can have a homosexual relationship, but not with a homosexual character. I think that's great to have for some, and probably even most LI's because the system works. I appreciate what Bioware does to include everyone, but I think we can take it even futher. I loved playing a FemShep in ME3 and never coveted Steve's affection because I simply respected that he was gay - we grew intensely close to each other, and we enjoyed an amazing friendship. Would it really be such a bad thing if DA similarly acknowledged that some people just won't be attracted to your gender?

This was beautifully put. I do not agree with what you want, but that was immensly well put. Definitely one of the best posts I've read on here. Don't normally go out of my way to compliment those "not on my side" on internet forums, but dayum that was good. Huge kudos =)

whykikyouwhy wrote...

You touch upon something that, for some people, might actually be the crux of the issue, and why they (myself included) might feel quite passionately about the matter - simply, the need for acknowledgement of being gay. In a perfect world, one that IRL we are so very far from, being gay would be treated much like having brown hair, or green eyes. Just part of the person, and not something to call out, to have to declare, to have to check a box for, to have to hassle with legislation about, etc. It's been my experience that a lot of straight folks don't make declarations about their hetereosexuality, that they're in a hetereosexual relationship, that they feel love toward someone of the opposite sex - no one bats an eye at that, and it's just something that is accepted.

It's that normalization, for lack of a much better word, that lots of folks would like to see, achieve and experience within their lifetime. Where loving someone of the same gender, being attracted to the same gender, identifying oneself as gay, is just one more piece of the whole. It's special and wonderful in and of itself, but it's celebrated as part of the whole rather than singled out and put on display. And that's a generalization, yes...I certainly cannot speak for all and would not assume to do so.

So with the DA games, where s/s romance is not made into a topic of discussion within the world, that's quite nice, at least for me. Because then you can focus on the other traits and aspects of the characters and how that relates to the world - whether or not they are noble or kind, whether they are fiends or thugs, whethere they care for their fellow Thedans or not. In some way, by it not being a big deal, and by it not being a matter of drama or conflict, it becomes a wee piece of an ideal manifested in the gameworld.

Nailed it. I've been trying to say this before but I don't think I've ever managed to really get my point across. By not having the sexual orientation mentioned, by having it completely transparent, it is allowed to simple be what it is without any political agendas or concerns. It is simply love. Not love between different or similar "kinds of people," it's only love. No more, no less, just the very core of romantic intimacy.

It's a fragile and beautiful thing. I love it to bits.

Damn you whykikyouwhy, I'm gonna have to hit "Submit" now or I'll start crying. And I blame you.



Brilliant posts both, but the latter doesn’t really speak as to why having bisexual\\homosexual\\heterosexual Li’s is such a big deal. I mean, was anyone here bothered by the treatment of Zevran, Leliana and Isabella in DA2 and Origins respectively? Was it insulting to anyone in any way to have Alistair be a straight man? I don’t get it, despite the wonderfully eloquent posts of people like whykikyouwhy, I just don’t get it.

Assuming that people’s objections aren’t coming from a place where all they really want is a smorgasbord of romantic options available to them, could someone please explain why having Li’s with their own sexual identity (right across the board) is such a bad thing? And please, no talk of zots!

#206
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Red_Sonja wrote...

could someone please explain why having Li’s with their own sexual identity (right across the board) is such a bad thing? And please, no talk of zots!

Because it takes away choice.

Here. Why is that video detrimental to the game? Do you think if I had not had to mod the game in order to have that, the game would have been worse?

You want predefined sexual identity represented in the game, you can have it in non romanceable companions or other people in the world. There are plenty of NPCs around.

Modifié par Nyoka, 03 mai 2012 - 09:36 .


#207
Red_Sonja

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The video was great and in no way detrimental to the game (hooray for modding). Right, so you're coming from a place where you object to not being able to romance every LI with a single protagonist (the aforementioned smorgasbord defence)? If that’s your only objection, I understand where you are coming from but say again that a little too much is lost in exchange for me (see previous posts).

In any case, is there not something to be said for experiencing the different romance paths across multiple playthroughs? Would you even play a male character and, If not, do you think it reasonable to expect that every romance path be made available to you?

Modifié par Red_Sonja, 03 mai 2012 - 10:08 .


#208
the_one_54321

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A lack of verisimilitude is more game breaking for me than is a lack of options in NPCs. My main concern where "choices" are available is in the PC.

I'm very put off by the running trend of making the environment and NPCs more game-variable friendly, and the PC more per-defined.

#209
Maria Caliban

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Red_Sonja wrote...

In any case, is there not something to be said for experiencing the different romance paths across multiple playthroughs? Would you even play a male character and, If not, do you think it reasonable to expect that every romance path be made available to you?

I've never expected that all romances be available to female PCs. It is what I prefer, however.

#210
Red_Sonja

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Red_Sonja wrote...

In any case, is there not something to be said for experiencing the different romance paths across multiple playthroughs? Would you even play a male character and, If not, do you think it reasonable to expect that every romance path be made available to you?

I've never expected that all romances be available to female PCs. It is what I prefer, however.


Cool.

#211
whykikyouwhy

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Red_Sonja wrote...

Brilliant posts both, but the latter doesn’t really speak as to why having bisexualhomosexualheterosexual Li’s is such a big deal. I mean, was anyone here bothered by the treatment of Zevran, Leliana and Isabella in DA2 and Origins respectively? Was it insulting to anyone in any way to have Alistair be a straight man? I don’t get it, despite the wonderfully eloquent posts of people like whykikyouwhy, I just don’t get it.

Assuming that people’s objections aren’t coming from a place where all they really want is a smorgasbord of romantic options available to them, could someone please explain why having Li’s with their own sexual identity (right across the board) is such a bad thing? And please, no talk of zots!


I don't think it was that people were bothered by the handling of those characters, or that Alistair was portrayed as straight in DA:O. It's that, from what we have seen in Thedas thus far within the two games, sexuality/sexual identity is not a topic of discussion - certainly not in the way that it is IRL. It's not treated as something wrong, evil, immoral, scandalous, abnormal, etc. It's nothing that warrants mention in anything other than an offhand remark of "oh, he's with so and so." Then it's shrug and move on. So who characters may be attracted to, who they choose to sleep with or how they choose to identify themselves are merely small facets of those characters. 

When that sexuality is called out, possibly because we feel the need to have classifications that match our own world (if even in the effort to find someone to identify with), it puts the spotlight on something that otherwise would not be mentioned...in Thedas. And so that wonderful aspect of sexuality not being a negative or a source of conflict in Thedas then diminishes slightly.

From a real world concept, yes, all aspects of our identity are important - our sexual selves, our faith (if we practice or subscribe to one), our moral/ethical standing, our concepts of friendship, our sense of family, our ethnic background. But much of those aspects are tangled up with the lack of acceptance, or with struggle. And they shouldn't be. We all share our human state of being - our mortal coil. A time on this planet to learn and to love. And that should transcend labels and the need to defend one's right to simply be, and to love.

If Thedas can be that little pocket of a fictitious universe where people are allowed to just be - if the conflicts that plague real life are replaced instead by the fantastic (matters of magic and creatures of shadow), then that's maybe why it matters, and why some folks (or at least me) may not want to have the labels and categories stressed as part of gameplay.

#212
jlb524

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Red_Sonja wrote...
In any case, is there not something to be said for experiencing the different romance paths across multiple playthroughs?


What if I'm the type of person that only plays the game once or twice?

Not everyone creates tons of different PCs for multiple playthroughs.

Red_Sonja wrote... 
Would you even play a male character


Speaking for myself, I don't like playing as males when I don't have to.

I've tried to do so and get bored relatively early and stopped playing the game altogether or rerolled a female.

#213
Sutekh

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Red_Sonja wrote...

In any case, is there not something to be said for experiencing the different romance paths across multiple playthroughs? Would you even play a male character and, If not, do you think it reasonable to expect that every romance path be made available to you?

Having the option to romance all LIs no matter your own preference doesn't mean romancing all LIs in one single playthrough.

However, it means that you can take different paths in different playthroughs, while still enjoying the romance full on, because you're not forced to go against your own inclination. For some people, it is important. If it's not, you can experience the same romance from different point of views (Male / female). And if you want to consider LIs as having a fixed sexuality, you can also do that. It's win/win.

Taking DAO as an example, if you were exclusively into f/f romance, you'd have only one experience available (Leliana), so no "different paths" for you. If you didn't like Leliana at all, you'd have an absolute zero romance path. Nada. Zilch. At least in DA2, the risk for that to happen was halved.

#214
Dutchess

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

It's that, from what we have seen in Thedas thus far within the two games, sexuality/sexual identity is not a topic of discussion - certainly not in the way that it is IRL. It's not treated as something wrong, evil, immoral, scandalous, abnormal, etc. It's nothing that warrants mention in anything other than an offhand remark of "oh, he's with so and so." Then it's shrug and move on. So who characters may be attracted to, who they choose to sleep with or how they choose to identify themselves are merely small facets of those characters. 


Although there indeed seems to be less hassle about sexual orientation in the world of Thedas, being attracted to someone of the same gender is not considered as standard, and the possibility exists people have problems with it. I am thinking about Zevran's question whether it bothers the Warden when he has told he enjoys the company of men as well as women, and Isabela in her dialogue with Bethany ("You have been with women?" "I know! Shocking, isn't it?"). Also, in the post-love scene with Fenris, male Hawke's diplomatic question is: "is it because I am a man?" while diplomatic female Hawke asks about the markings: "your markings. They hurt, don't they?"
I don't think those remarks make much sense in a world where it is really completely normal and very common for someone to hook up with somebody of the same sex. 

#215
jlb524

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I have a question for those that don't like the 'all bi' or 'herosexual' thing...why add in s/s romance at all?

What is the benefit?

I think that, having PC after PC traveling with 'that one bisexual woman and one bisexual man' is detrimental to verisimilitude.

Some people think having anyone around the PC that's into sexin up someone of their own gender is ruinous to their verisimilitude.

Really, always having 2 women and 2 men in a party that are open to love regardless of sexuality is ridiculous.

#216
Guest_Nyoka_*

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I don't think too much is lost. Ashley is a great multilayered character in ME1. I have no idea how that video makes her lose verosimilitude or anything else for that matter.

Second point - of course it's reasonable to expect for the romanceable characters to be romanceable. That's the whole point about being romanceable. I don't understand why the need to make different characters to do scenes that work perfectly well with my characters. If there is something wrong with the conversation, then ok. But it works, doesn't it? If it works, I see no point in taking away that choice.

I'd rather consider who my character would like according to personality and looks rather than finding out who the game arbitrarily decided to let me romance.

If people are concerned that predefined sexual identity is an important thing that should be depicted in the game for the sake of realism of whatever other reason, fine - make non romanceable NPCs predefined. They're not romanceable anyway so you're not taking away choices from the players. There. You're offering every player the same experience, you're letting them decide if their character would romance this one or that one for their own reasons, instead of deciding for them... and you have sexual identity represented in the game. Perfect, no?

#217
syllogi

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Red_Sonja wrote...

The video was great and in no way detrimental to the game (hooray for modding). Right, so you're coming from a place where you object to not being able to romance every LI with a single protagonist (the aforementioned smorgasbord defence)? If that’s your only objection, I understand where you are coming from but say again that a little too much is lost in exchange for me (see previous posts).

In any case, is there not something to be said for experiencing the different romance paths across multiple playthroughs? Would you even play a male character and, If not, do you think it reasonable to expect that every romance path be made available to you?


I am not a completionist. I will never play an RPG as a male character, if the option to play as female is available to me. I also will never romance certain characters if I don't find them attractive, even if they're available to my character's gender. 

Why should games continue to put such importance on the gender of a player character, so that I'm forced to skip content that I would enjoy otherwise?  Why would I ever want to deny others choice, if they enjoy a romance that I don't care for?

#218
Curlain

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jlb524 wrote...

I have a question for those that don't like the 'all bi' or 'herosexual' thing...why add in s/s romance at all?

What is the benefit?

I think that, having PC after PC traveling with 'that one bisexual woman and one bisexual man' is detrimental to verisimilitude.

Some people think having anyone around the PC that's into sexin up someone of their own gender is ruinous to their verisimilitude.

Really, always having 2 women and 2 men in a party that are open to love regardless of sexuality is ridiculous.


Hmm, I think some have suggested making potential romance characters only open to specific classes and/or races, and possibly reacting more to postions the PC takes on issues etc.  Kinda reminds me of BG2 where depending on your race choice you might not get a romance option at all (Aerie and Jaheria only romanced humans, elves and half-elves, and Viconia only humans, half-elves and half-orcs, no idea about Anomen, the guy always irrated me).  But in this case the system would be more indepth and go beyond just race being a determing factor of attaction etc,

Definitely might make replays interesting, but probably unlikely to be implimented.

Modifié par Curlain, 03 mai 2012 - 10:35 .


#219
Red_Sonja

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

Red_Sonja wrote...

Brilliant posts both, but the latter doesn’t really speak as to why having bisexualhomosexualheterosexual Li’s is such a big deal. I mean, was anyone here bothered by the treatment of Zevran, Leliana and Isabella in DA2 and Origins respectively? Was it insulting to anyone in any way to have Alistair be a straight man? I don’t get it, despite the wonderfully eloquent posts of people like whykikyouwhy, I just don’t get it.

Assuming that people’s objections aren’t coming from a place where all they really want is a smorgasbord of romantic options available to them, could someone please explain why having Li’s with their own sexual identity (right across the board) is such a bad thing? And please, no talk of zots!


I don't think it was that people were bothered by the handling of those characters, or that Alistair was portrayed as straight in DA:O. It's that, from what we have seen in Thedas thus far within the two games, sexuality/sexual identity is not a topic of discussion - certainly not in the way that it is IRL. It's not treated as something wrong, evil, immoral, scandalous, abnormal, etc. It's nothing that warrants mention in anything other than an offhand remark of "oh, he's with so and so." Then it's shrug and move on. So who characters may be attracted to, who they choose to sleep with or how they choose to identify themselves are merely small facets of those characters. 

When that sexuality is called out, possibly because we feel the need to have classifications that match our own world (if even in the effort to find someone to identify with), it puts the spotlight on something that otherwise would not be mentioned...in Thedas. And so that wonderful aspect of sexuality not being a negative or a source of conflict in Thedas then diminishes slightly.

From a real world concept, yes, all aspects of our identity are important - our sexual selves, our faith (if we practice or subscribe to one), our moral/ethical standing, our concepts of friendship, our sense of family, our ethnic background. But much of those aspects are tangled up with the lack of acceptance, or with struggle. And they shouldn't be. We all share our human state of being - our mortal coil. A time on this planet to learn and to love. And that should transcend labels and the need to defend one's right to simply be, and to love.

If Thedas can be that little pocket of a fictitious universe where people are allowed to just be - if the conflicts that plague real life are replaced instead by the fantastic (matters of magic and creatures of shadow), then that's maybe why it matters, and why some folks (or at least me) may not want to have the labels and categories stressed as part of gameplay.



Another beautiful post whykikyouwhy, I’m really enjoying your contributions to this thread. Ok, so you would like the game to present a world where there are no sexual barriers (is that even the right word – I do hope I’m making myself understood) precluding people from hooking up with whomever they want. I dig it. Problem is, I just don’t believe it.

Besides, is there not something to be said for roleplayig in a game world that better represents (even celebrates) the diversity and differences between people? Perhaps a story path that was designed to condemn some of the ignorant views we both deplore would be a good direction for the game to go? I don’t know. In any case, I’ll just have to say again that I would prefer that all Li’s have a clearly defined sense of self, inclusive of sexual orientation. It would make the game (if only in some small part) more interesting and convincing to me, so that’s the direction I'd like to see things go.

#220
hoorayforicecream

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renjility wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

It's that, from what we have seen in Thedas thus far within the two games, sexuality/sexual identity is not a topic of discussion - certainly not in the way that it is IRL. It's not treated as something wrong, evil, immoral, scandalous, abnormal, etc. It's nothing that warrants mention in anything other than an offhand remark of "oh, he's with so and so." Then it's shrug and move on. So who characters may be attracted to, who they choose to sleep with or how they choose to identify themselves are merely small facets of those characters. 


Although there indeed seems to be less hassle about sexual orientation in the world of Thedas, being attracted to someone of the same gender is not considered as standard, and the possibility exists people have problems with it. I am thinking about Zevran's question whether it bothers the Warden when he has told he enjoys the company of men as well as women, and Isabela in her dialogue with Bethany ("You have been with women?" "I know! Shocking, isn't it?"). Also, in the post-love scene with Fenris, male Hawke's diplomatic question is: "is it because I am a man?" while diplomatic female Hawke asks about the markings: "your markings. They hurt, don't they?"
I don't think those remarks make much sense in a world where it is really completely normal and very common for someone to hook up with somebody of the same sex. 


But that doesn't mean that it defaults to the same sexuality issues in the real world. I mean... look at vegetarianism. Most people aren't vegetarians. According to this article, roughly 3.2% of Americans are vegetarian, which is about the same percentage of the population that ABC believes is LGBTQ.

When you offer someone food, you may be surprised that the person is a vegetarian or a vegan. But do you feel weird about it? Is it something so abnormal and unnatural where you can't believe that there might be four vegetarians in your group of companions or coworkers? Or do you just say "oh, ok" and dismiss it as not that big a deal? It still makes a difference when you decide where or what to eat, but it isn't something to get your panties in a twist over.

That's essentially what I think WKW is aiming for. Something doesn't have to be very common to still be treated as completely normal.

PS: For the record, I always thought that Bethany was just being curious when she asked about it, since she's inexperienced and curious in such matters. I always felt Isabela's "Shocking, isn't it?" response was a joke, since (I thought) it was pretty obvious that Isabela was interested in women as well as men from the get-go.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 03 mai 2012 - 10:48 .


#221
jlb524

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Red_Sonja wrote...
Besides, is there not something to be said for roleplayig in a game world that better represents (even celebrates) the diversity and differences between people? Perhaps a story path that was designed to condemn some of the ignorant views we both deplore would be a good direction for the game to go?


How should that be depicted in a DA game?

Why do you think it even should be depicted?

#222
Dave of Canada

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Doesn't Zevran say Antivans frown upon m/m?

#223
Maria Caliban

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I think part of it is that Isabela has been around the continent while Bethany was raised in a small backwater.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Doesn't Zevran say Antivans frown upon m/m?

Yes, and we know Antivans tend to see men and women as being very different.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 mai 2012 - 10:51 .


#224
wsandista

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jlb524 wrote...

I have a question for those that don't like the 'all bi' or 'herosexual' thing...why add in s/s romance at all?

What is the benefit?

I think that, having PC after PC traveling with 'that one bisexual woman and one bisexual man' is detrimental to verisimilitude.

Some people think having anyone around the PC that's into sexin up someone of their own gender is ruinous to their verisimilitude.

Really, always having 2 women and 2 men in a party that are open to love regardless of sexuality is ridiculous.


I don't want all bi LIs, I want exclusively gay and lesbian LI's, as well as exclusively straight LIs, as well as LIs that are exclusive due to other factors such as choices and class(and specialization). It just seems weird that every possible LI is avaliable(if not explicitly intrested in) to be romnced by the PC, no matter what they do. Anders for instance, could still be romanced by an "KILL ALL MAGES" Hawke who constantly attacks mages and supports Templars, when that is the type of person Anders is very hostile to. 

Am I the only one who found it odd that there are no purely homosexual LIs in DA. For me having all bi LIs portrays sexuality as more of a choice rather than just who the character is. I would  like a character like Cortez or Traynor who do not change who they are just because of how the player created the PC.

EDIT: meant to write LI intsead of character

Modifié par wsandista, 03 mai 2012 - 10:55 .


#225
Maria Caliban

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wsandista wrote...

Am I the only one who found it odd that there are no purely homosexual characters in DA.

Wade and Harren? Those two Grey Wardens? Possibly Samus and Hespith.