113 réponses à ce sujet

[ReallyRue]

DahliaLynn wrote...

I believe Inon Zur while very talented, tries too hard to take his music to unexpected "places". 30% of his music is incredible and appropriate, but for the most part, he just "does the job"

I wrote a more in depth analysis last year in a few posts if anyone cares to read

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4958844/4#4969041

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4958844/3#4966410

I agree about it not creating much in the way of emotional atmosphere, especially during scenes where that should be importantant. I enjoyed some of the location themes (like Calenhad Docks, Hanged Man, etc), but for specific scenes there should have been more impact. That's one thing I definitely think Mass Effect and some of my other favourite RPGs have over Dragon Age.

[Brockololly]

Leoroc wrote...

I have to agree that Zur's main themes are good (Fallout, DAO) most of his stuff is just....there.

Exactly- he's decent for coming up with a main theme but beyond that, its all quite forgettable.

Jeremy Soule did a great job with Skyrim and any of the music in The Witcher 2 is amazing.

[Melca36]

His Dragon Age: Origins music was so much better than DA:2s.

I did like Hawke Champion Trailer music and I liked the background music in the Hanged Man.

Everything else was........................MEH!

[bEVEsthda]

ReallyRue wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I believe Inon Zur while very talented, tries too hard to take his music to unexpected "places". 30% of his music is incredible and appropriate, but for the most part, he just "does the job"

I wrote a more in depth analysis last year in a few posts if anyone cares to read

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4958844/4#4969041

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4958844/3#4966410

I agree about it not creating much in the way of emotional atmosphere, especially during scenes where that should be importantant. I enjoyed some of the location themes (like Calenhad Docks, Hanged Man, etc), but for specific scenes there should have been more impact. That's one thing I definitely think Mass Effect and some of my other favourite RPGs have over Dragon Age.

Again, I think you're mistaking the composer for the direction of the game designer. It should be his job to tell what kind music he wants where.

[DahliaLynn]

bEVEsthda wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I believe Inon Zur while very talented, tries too hard to take his music to unexpected "places". 30% of his music is incredible and appropriate, but for the most part, he just "does the job"

I wrote a more in depth analysis last year in a few posts if anyone cares to read

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4958844/4#4969041

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4958844/3#4966410

I agree about it not creating much in the way of emotional atmosphere, especially during scenes where that should be importantant. I enjoyed some of the location themes (like Calenhad Docks, Hanged Man, etc), but for specific scenes there should have been more impact. That's one thing I definitely think Mass Effect and some of my other favourite RPGs have over Dragon Age.

Again, I think you're mistaking the composer for the direction of the game designer. It should be his job to tell what kind music he wants where.

I highly doubt the game designer said "Please lets put in some bland music here, when Hawk's mother dies" Or during Aveline's husband's death.

Edit: I think Reallyrue fully understands the need for moments to be assisted with a proper musical setting. Be it scene or ambience. It is the music composer's job to provide the tone. But as with all artists, some have a way of bringing out emotion more than others.  

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 02 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[Blastback]

John Williams. Or whoever it was that scored Lord of the Rings.

Hey, go big.

Modifié par Blastback, 02 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[Leoroc]

I think John Williams just does music for industry friends now and not on the open market.

While Howard Shore, Hans Zimmer, James Horner, Alan Silvestri would rock, they are an order of magnitude more expensive. I will throw Jay Barbeau in the mix though, Everquest had great memorable music.

[Firky]

@DahliaLynn I read your links. Oh man. John Williams. He's amazing. I'm playing SWTOR a bit at the moment, and the music is great. Knowing nothing about how SWTOR's music is created, I think the composer/s have captured Star Wars beautifully. It's the melodic construction/emphasis that says Star Wars to me, anyway, and that open style tonality that seems ever stuck somewhere between the romantic period and various 20th Century art genres.

On memorability. Although Star Wars has lots of memorable themes, Vader and Luke, for example, I'd argue something like Leia's theme is still an absolutely brilliantly constructed melody but a higher proportion of people couldn't sing it off the top of their heads. It's the combination of massive intervallic leaps and motific development that make it so evocative. It's also very simple.

What's my point? I'm not sure. But I just watched the Hawke's mother scene. I didn't really get the impression the music was made for that scene at all. It just sounded like the Hawke family theme over it. Trying to compare it to a similar moment in Star Wars - if you can guess what I'm thinking of - I just went looking and there was practically no music in that scene either, though. Some horns.

(Also, what's up with youtube people setting rock music to Star Wars? )

Perhaps they were trying not to busy the narrative in DA2 with a highly emotive score. In other ways it's a dynamic score - the dissonant chord of death in combat, for example. I dunno. I'm certainly not arguing against strong character themes. Thinking about it more, Hawke's Family theme is pretty well constructed, even if I didn't remember it. As to its usage, in cutscenes etc, that's a different matter.

(PS. Realistically, I don't reckon they're going to go find another composer. But some feedback on the actual construction and usage of the music might be useful.)

Modifié par Firky, 02 mai 2012 - 11:19 .

[Massakkolia]

Whether you can or cannot hum a tune from a soundtrack is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the quality of the said soundtrack. Unless we're talking about musicals. Soundtracks aren't generally suppose to be catchy, they're meant to enhance the atmosphere. Usually there's just one or two memorable main melodies, which are arranged in different ways to create a cohesive score. Rest is usually more or less ambiguous.

Old games had quite catchy tunes because bad graphics restricted the cinematic storytelling. Now visuals alone are strong enough to communicate the intended message so game music is more a kin to that of films. Music in Dragon Age is subtle and (usually) doesn't manipulate the player in a in-your-face style.

I'd welcome Inon Zur back mainly because of the continuity. DA2 was rushed but the DA feeling was still there. He's a competent composer and has had a huge influence on the way we feel about Thedas. Then again, Mass Effect series had several composers and I like the music in all three games.

[greekmonkey95]

Origins music > DA2 music

[DahliaLynn]

I agree that remembering a tune is less important in the overall scheme of a game. But I certainly do not think they intended for the music to be as bland as it was. Unfortunately, it's a common occurrence with his music in general.

It's likely extremely complicated to write music for a game. So many different considerations need be made, for both area music, (ambient location) as well as cutscene and special story moments, not to mention how battle music needs to fit seemlessly with wherever you go, or walking into a particular area where the feeling needs to change, i.e. dynamic music, it's a tremendous undertaking. He did an excellent job in making those parts work seemlessly. Only the content itself..

In DA2 he continued the bland route. If I were to give DA2's music a label. it would have to be "cold", and though certain moments do require a coldish feeling, I think most of his music tends to be rather flat in general. To clarify, just when you think you're about to feel a building climactic moment (musically) it ends up going someplace completely different. And it happens over and over again in almost every piece. This compromises on the "feel factor" for me, and its existence degrades to being just "there".

Skyrim, for example, although not story strong, gave just the right fantasy style backing during your travels. Designed for different parts of the day, great backing music that immerses you in the atmosphere of your surroundings. In no way overwhelming, and has a unique personality of its own.

On the other hand, I'm playing Legend of Grimrock now, and find that on the lower levels, the music turns a bit too "futuristic " for me.(strangely reminds me of Fallout 3) Although it isn't overwhelming and more light ambient than anything else, it's not very fitting. But who knows. I may emerge into some nuclear after-world for all I know, that is, if I manage to escape

As far as continuity is concerned, DA:O and DA2 had completely different themes and instruments, though a few recurring DA:O themes were used, I really think they need a bit of an overhaul in melodic progressions and "feel" for anything in the future. Themes can be maintained and manipulated, but I truly believe that while Inon Zur occasionally has moments of greatness where the music feels "just right" they are too few for me to look forward to more.

Edit: incidentally, I remember feeling a bit refreshed playing Mark of the Assasin. It felt different..and worked well with its suspense themes and battle moments. I think that was N. Peace Nastades that created that.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 03 mai 2012 - 01:45 .

[Lord Methrid]

Close your eyes and imagine this..

At the age of fourteen you embark in the greatest journey of your life. You travel the great seas of the far east in search of a new world wonder. You settle in an unknown land riding the turn of a century. Along your journey a brute from the cold winter north, and a lone traveler from a distant land company you on your quest for knowledge.

Through these tough ages of the dark rulings of evil men known as "kings", you take to arms and fight an endless war which seems to have no end in sight. Upon your final last breath, you strike the king himself back into the dark depths from which he came.

And in the distant hills and valleys, you hear the siren's call...

FADE OUT

Baldur's Gate III: Kingdom of Gorion

LOL Shame how much of Bioware's creativity is short of what it once was. I just threw up what could possibly have been one of the greatest story driven rpg plots of this generation all in a matter of minutes from listening to the works of one composer. If you ask me, Bioware should focus on the "origins" of their characters, the culture, and the lore. The begining and the end from which we all can feel, the vision and the reality. Let us but hope Bioware remembers the works of their past that brought them to this turn of the game industry century. Then you can hire a composer who will tie it all together in a beautiful work of art.

Jesper Kyd's got my vote. He's all about culture and origins in his work. 

Modifié par Lord Methrid, 03 mai 2012 - 07:03 .

[deuce985]

I like Inon...please don't change him...

I think his themes fit perfectly in the DA universe...

This is like changing composers in ME3. Clint Mansell is a amazing composer in the Hollywood industry but his tracks didn't fit the ME universe at all, IMO. Well, the ones he actually composed in ME3.  

Inon is established in the franchise...he should stay. Better safe than sorry.

Modifié par deuce985, 03 mai 2012 - 07:49 .

[FDrage]

Might sound weird or sad ... but I quite liked the DA music. I still listen to some of the musical pieces every now and then. It was actually one of the highlights in DA2, but then music is always important to me for an entertainment experience .

[Halberd96]

Mark Morgan would be good if not Inon Zur...

He did Planescape: Torment's soundtrack in like three weeks or something and it was great.

You might argue that he doesn't have experience with modern games that have more time based music and orchestra based stuff but since FO and PS:T he has actually made music for t.v shows which are even more harder and time based than cinematics in video games.

He's also acknowledged before when talking about Fallout 3 that newer games have different soundtracks and he has said that he wishes he could have PS:T more orchestral...

[5trangeCase]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I say Nobuo Uematsu or Yoko Shimomura.

Are you going to the concert? I don't know whether Nobuo would fit with DA3...his music is just a different kind of epic to what Dragon Age is about. Yeah, I think a good way to describe it is, his music is about people, while Dragon Age is about events. But his music is better than Inon Zurs without a doubt...I just don't think it would fit. I don't know what it is, but any Uematsu song I can think of just won't fit with Dragon Age in my mind.

[AkiKishi]

Never pay much attention to it. First thing I do is turn it down till it's barely perceptible. I'd rather listen to the noises of the world than an artficial soundtrack.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 mai 2012 - 02:00 .

[NR-Wesker]

Only tracks I liked from DA2 were the main theme and Rogue Heart. Much the same with DAO except with Leliana's Song as well. Whomever scores the third game needs to bring back Aubrey Ashburn, no question! If anyone other than Inon Zur scored the game, I'd hope it were Hanz Zimmer. That man can make the dullest of movies watchable with his music.

Modifié par NR-Wesker, 03 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[bEVEsthda]

DahliaLynn wrote...

I highly doubt the game designer said "Please lets put in some bland music here, when Hawk's mother dies" Or during Aveline's husband's death.

But that's just my point. I suspect the game designer took into account budget- and time aspects, and never asked for anything special for Hawke's mother. And I'm certain they didn't ask for anything special for Aveline's husband's death.

Changing to a cheaper composer will maybe help with that. I've already conceded that point. So yes, maybe they should do that.

Because when you ask for anything special from Inon Zur, you get things like DA:O main theme, FO3 main theme etc.
Or something like this:



Now this is admittably from a time when Inon Zur's time and work was much cheaper. But my point remains, if you want a theme for a specific time and place, rather than background music, from Inon Zur, you'll get it.

But if budget is the matter, well, yes, then let's change the composer. Then the problem will be to find a talent.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 mai 2012 - 02:03 .

[DahliaLynn]

Actually they did use whatever music they had in the library labeled as "emotional/dramatic"for that particular moment. You'll notice that "cello" playing. But the music was just, not moving.

When a composer is asked to create music for a game, he has to work on various categories depending on the different situations encountered in a game. So far, his music definitely gets the job done, but as far as evoking anything beyond a basic atmospheric mood with "appropriate" background music, it falls short of what music should really be doing, and that is enhancing the mood of the game.

While I'm not sure what your point is regarding "cheaper composer" you may have pointed out music pieces that sound better than the lot of his productions. But that still falls under the category of 30% great, the rest, flat.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 03 mai 2012 - 04:00 .

[Tirigon]

Filament wrote...

For a second I thought you were recommending Clarence Thomas.

I say Skrillex.

The track "I want to kill everybody on the world" would sure fit Hawke's approach to dealing with Kirkwall's unsavory elements.

[Xerxes52]

Trent Reznor.

[Firky]

DahliaLynn wrote...

Actually they did use whatever music they had in the library labeled as "emotional/dramatic"for that particular moment. You'll notice that "cello" playing. But the music was just, not moving.

When a composer is asked to create music for a game, he has to work on various categories depending on the different situations encountered in a game. So far, his music definitely gets the job done, but as far as evoking anything beyond a basic atmospheric mood with "appropriate" background music, it falls short of what music should really be doing, and that is enhancing the mood of the game.

I totally agree that the mother moment could have been more evocative if it'd had music specifically made for it. I wonder if there would be a handful of key story moments in DA2 where this would have been a really appropriate thing to do, rather than "insert Hawke family theme" as appears to have been the case. (So far as I can tell.)

I do really like that Hawke family theme, though, after listening a few times last night. The melody has that pitch which doesn't resolve until it's hit the second time. That's gorgeous. (IMO.) And, yes, cello. On structural climaxes. I actually really love music without them. I studied medieval music at uni for - 2 terms ? maybe - and a static sort of structure can be really characteristic of that - of course DA2's music isn't really "medieval" per se. Maybe taking influence from medieval styles.

When you say "enhancing the mood of the game," do you mean making it more evocative? I think DA2's music probably captured the setting well (maybe not mood so much.) But I've also been listening to the Tavern music. Love that, too. It reminds me of travelling in Bulgaria with my husband. (Who is Bulgarian and therefore can dance to mixed meter without falling over. I certainly couldn't.)

Modifié par Firky, 03 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[Jozape]

I normally don't care for Inon Zur's music, but I think it is superb in Dragon Age: Origins. Fallout 3's and Icewind Dale 2's aren't bad either. I hope he comes back for DA3 and gets it close to DA:O. His music went so well with the mood and setting imo. Orzammar, the combat themes, the main theme, loved it all. I literally can't remember anything from Dragon Age 2's soundtrack though, admittedly. Of course, I played it less than 1/5 times as much as Origins.