113 réponses à ce sujet

[DahliaLynn]

Firky wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Actually they did use whatever music they had in the library labeled as "emotional/dramatic"for that particular moment. You'll notice that "cello" playing. But the music was just, not moving.

When a composer is asked to create music for a game, he has to work on various categories depending on the different situations encountered in a game. So far, his music definitely gets the job done, but as far as evoking anything beyond a basic atmospheric mood with "appropriate" background music, it falls short of what music should really be doing, and that is enhancing the mood of the game.

I totally agree that the mother moment could have been more evocative if it'd had music specifically made for it. I wonder if there would be a handful of key story moments in DA2 where this would have been a really appropriate thing to do, rather than "insert Hawke family theme" as appears to have been the case. (So far as I can tell.)

I don't really think they had to go so far as to make specific music for it. But out of the Inon Zur DA2 library categorized as "Music for emotional moments" section, nothing in that "library" moved me in the least.

I do really like that Hawke family theme, though, after listening a few times last night. The melody has that pitch which doesn't resolve until it's hit the second time. That's gorgeous. (IMO.) And, yes, cello. On structural climaxes. I actually really love music without them. I studied medieval music at uni for - 2 terms ? maybe - and a static sort of structure can be really characteristic of that - of course DA2's music isn't really "medieval" per se. Maybe taking influence from medieval styles.

While music is a matter of taste, it's been found that some composers are simply better at expression to visuals than others. I personally didn't like the Hawke Family Theme. I got used to it.

On climax, what I mean is, imagine a song without a chorus, only verses. In this case, even the verses are boring. That sort of sums it up.

When you say "enhancing the mood of the game," do you mean making it more evocative? I think DA2's music probably captured the setting well (maybe not mood so much.) But I've also been listening to the Tavern music. Love that, too. It reminds me of travelling in Bulgaria with my husband. (Who is Bulgarian and therefore can dance to mixed meter without falling over. I certainly couldn't.)

The tavern music actually was an improvement over what was done in DA:O. It's one of his better pieces imo.

Regarding enhancing, none of the music actually does anything other than tell me for example "ok, now I'm talking to the Arishok" Cue in Male Chorus. Did it evoke a sense of fear or power? no. The power is in the melody and harmonies, and his melodies for me, feel like an endless maze of "Im purposely extending the melody to places you would never expect", i.e. overcomplicating, which leads to that flat feeling. While it's nice to do that every once in a while, it gets tiring when that's all you hear.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 03 mai 2012 - 11:14 .

[Firky]

DahliaLynn wrote...

On climax, what I mean is, imagine a song without a chorus, only verses. In this case, even the verses are boring. That sort of sums it up.

In an extremely general sense - and with 10+ years of forgetting what I learned at uni - songs with just "verses" or one repeating section, and no choruses, is pretty much secular medieval tradition in music, though. (I think. For the most part. Probably.)

Religious medieval tradition in music would be more like plainchant, which is solely driven by the religious text (Like the Chant of Light!!!), no verse-like sections at all, unless the religious text is structured that way, and into organum which is a vertical structuring of early polyphony, not horizontal structuring, like intro, exposition, verse or whatever.

I'm not arguing DA2's music is appropriate for a game, story moment, or even DA2, necessarily, just that it might be consistent with medieval influences. As to whether it's boring, apart from a few general trends, like repetitiousness etc, yeah, it's probably largely a matter of opinion. (Which is important to the listener, so thus important.)

The interesting thing in DA2's music, to me, now I'm listening more carefully, is that medieval characteristics are less at the forefront, but still very obviously in the background. Sticking with the Hawke Family theme, to me, probably the overall impression is Romantic period, which has then skipped over several hundred years of historical tradition, due to the usage of much "freer" treatment of harmonic elements, in general. The melodic line in the cellos, for example, uses suspension/intervallic movement to evocative effect, which is likely something you'd find in late Romanticism, while still being modally influenced, as in early Western music.

I used to teach High School music, which wasn't particularly strenuous until you got to the 17-18 year old students. Developing the vocabulary to be able to discuss why something was or was not evocative was a key part of their learning. Although music without climactic horizontal structure would probably generally not be considered evocative, context (ie medieval setting, or even "game") would play a part.

(PS. I'm really enjoying this discussion. I really miss analysing music.)

[keesio74]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Seriously, though.  I would like to see something very similar to the Metallica S & M album, which was a live concert they performed with the San Francisco Symphony a few years ago.  (sample) www.youtube.com/watch

A mix of metal and orchestra, would certainly get me to notice the soundtrack in a favorable way, and would definitely make some scenes much more intense.

Please, NO. And I like metal. 

And Zur is fine. Bioware has a lot more important stuff to fix than the music.

Modifié par keesio74, 04 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[Blacklash93]

I found the ambient tracks he did in Fallout 3 extremely atmospheric and frequently chill-inducing but other than that project not much of what he does stands out for me. I think there are definitely a few good tracks he makes in other games he composes for, including DA, but the majority oh his work is just kind of "there" as others have said.

[Giant ambush beetle]

I agree with the OP; I wasn't really happy with his mediocre work in DAO and DA2. While Inon Zur is definitely a respected and decent composer I'd rather want Jeremy Soule do the soundtrack for the next DA.
Skyrim and especially the Icewind Dale OST is top notch stuff. You just need to listen to these tracks to get an idea what great music he can make.

[AmstradHero]

DahliaLynn wrote...
Regarding enhancing, none of the music actually does anything other than tell me for example "ok, now I'm talking to the Arishok" Cue in Male Chorus. Did it evoke a sense of fear or power? no. The power is in the melody and harmonies, and his melodies for me, feel like an endless maze of "Im purposely extending the melody to places you would never expect", i.e. overcomplicating, which leads to that flat feeling. While it's nice to do that every once in a while, it gets tiring when that's all you hear.

Yes! I could never put my finger on exactly what it was that bugged me about DA2's music and made it feel like it wasn't particularly good, but that's hit the nail on the head. It was always about an "event" or a "location", as though the music was saying "Now you're talking to the Arishok", "Now you're in Hawke's Estate", "Now you're talking to Templars", etc. The music felt as though it was overtly forcing those connections rather than letting the player make those connection themselves. The music wasn't really emotional (IMHO), and failed at being atmospheric because it was too overstated.

If I compare this to the soundtrack for Risen, which is fairly musically understated for the most part, it manages to evoke a certain feeling and emotion in the listener. Even though the pieces are still associated with particular locations and events just like in DA2, the association is done in a way that the player makes the connection rather than the music. Many of the pieces don't necessarily have choruses either, though there are repeated elements than give a chorus-like feel while still pushing the piece forward through change.

Another fantastic soundtrack is by the aforementioned Jesper Kyd, in the form of Assassin's Creed 2. While Brotherhood's soundtrack is a bit lacklustre, AC2 has a wonderful soundtrack that involves a number of reoccuring musical themes across its tunes, which offer a great deal in terms of atmosphere. While the track "Ezio's Family" is probably the only piece which is really emotionally moving, the state of mind engendered from the atmosphere and tone of the tracks makes this soundtrack one of the best around.

While I'm not sure I can identify all the instruments in Ezio's family, female (oooh/aaah) vocals and piano are the main drivers, supported by clean guitar, violin (I think), and some distorted guitar at the end. This could seem like a strange mix for a game set in rennaissance Italy, but the blend is done so well that the out of place instruments aren't an issue because of the quality of the piece.

This simplicity and gradual layering is something that DA2's music mostly seems to ignore, instead relying almost exclusively on a continually developing melody, which overall feels to be to its detriment.

[PsychoBlonde]

Leoroc wrote...

Brush, aside from the main theme could you hum or even recognize a single other tunr/musical cue from DAO or DA2?

Hum?  No--they tend to go for a more ambient feel which means a lack of a single simple melody line.  Recognize?  Yes.  Even from a few bars.

I could say that for 90% of the music in Skyrim or Oblivion, too, though, apart from, yes, the main theme.

The only game I've played relatively recently where the music wasn't ambient in that way was Fallout 3, and that was because I kept the "radio" on for 90% of the game.  If you shut that off and listen to the actual ambient music, it's pretty unmemorable.

Now, if you have an aesthetic quibble OTHER than the fact that the music was selected to be ambient instead of melodic, I might listen to that.  But having your game sound like a production of Peter and the Wolf is not necessarily a good thing.  Heck, I DESPISED the individual character themes that would come up in Jade Empire, particularly the horribly gooey and sentimental one they saddled Dawn Star with.  For most of the game it was horribly out of place--I'd finish off a horde of mobs in a dark, spooky, deserted ruin, and next thing I know I'm covered in Sticky Bun Juice.  Er, metaphorically speaking.  Yuck.

Catchy music has the problem that after the third loop through, some people will be gritting their teeth.  Not to mention the effect it has on people who are just listening to you play by virtue of you being in the same house with them.

Plus if you're starving for melody, just turn off the music and loop the Hamster Dance.

[PsychoBlonde]

AmstradHero wrote...

This simplicity and gradual layering is something that DA2's music mostly seems to ignore, instead relying almost exclusively on a continually developing melody, which overall feels to be to its detriment.

Now, I don't know a lot about music, but a lot of the music in DA2 doesn't seem to have any melody to speak of.  It's tonal differentiation without the organization of a melody.  Like listening to melisma or totally random "jazz".

Heck, Rise of The Qunari is a *chant*.

[packardbell]

Think it's a bit too late asking for a new composer, it's like saying TES without Jeremy Soule or ME without Sam Hullick. Inon is capable of fantastic music.

[craigdolphin]

Perhaps it's just me, and I bring no particular expertise to the subject, but I personally like the soundracks to both DAO and DA2. It was one of the few aspects of DA2 that did anything to remind me that it was still a dragon age game, even if it felt so utterly alien in some other major aspects.

Are there better composers? Dunno. But I like what Inon Zur has done to date in DA. I hope he continues. Apologies to those who disagree.

[Firky]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

This simplicity and gradual layering is something that DA2's music mostly seems to ignore, instead relying almost exclusively on a continually developing melody, which overall feels to be to its detriment.

Now, I don't know a lot about music, but a lot of the music in DA2 doesn't seem to have any melody to speak of.  It's tonal differentiation without the organization of a melody.  Like listening to melisma or totally random "jazz".

Heck, Rise of The Qunari is a *chant*.

The thing that turns me off about Rise of the Qunari is the vocal sounds. I don't like ooo, aaaah etc. I also don't like lyrics for game music in English. (With the exception of Bastion's music, which was amazing all over. ) The main theme from Origins was sung in a DA elven language, though, right? I like that because it sounds like genuine singing, but you aren't distracted by listening to the words. (And it's not oo and ah.)

But chant isn't oo and ah, terminologically speaking, music wise. In Western tradition, anyways, chant = melody and only melody. Indeed, with medieval, religious plainchant, every single melodic interval is steeped in sacred meaning. So in terms of organisation, plainchant is extremely organised. Also, melisma (Western) is a melodic device. The classic example of melisma is "For unto us a child is born" from Handel's Messiah in which "born" is sounded over 57 or 75 (one or the other? memory fail) different pitches. That's extremely well organised, because it is also fugal and 4 seperate melodies have to fit together without clashing in a classical model of harmony. (Like a round.)

Melisma in Western tradition has to be highly organised, but in other cultures, melisma can be improvisatory, which is maybe what you meant, by linking it to free jazz styles. I think the idea that melody in DA2's music goes to "unexpected places" (now a few people have discussed it, I get what you mean) is an interesting one. Appreciation (by which I don't mean understanding, I mean liking or not liking) of music can also be related to exposure.

So, many people *hate* listening to atonal music, for example, like the really dissonant (crazy sounding) stuff. I certainly hated it to start with, but after listening to *many* hours of dissonant music at uni, I got used to how it sounds. Now I really enjoy aspects of atonal music. Same with some cultural musics. Like, I got the great chance to study and actually play in a Balinese Gamelan ensemble at uni, too. To start with, Gamelan music all sounds the same to the Western ear. A neverchanging mess of textures, like kotekan, or interlocking polos (flowers?) and sangsih (petals?) parts. But, at concerts in the park, there were Balinese regulars who would get really excited by certain aspects of each piece that went totally over my head. I don't have that appreciation, because I'm not Indonesian. But I no longer go, Balinese Gamelan = boring and I tend to go, hey, that's a spirited example of Balinese music, or that's unusually sparse, I like it, or whatever - and listen for longer.

The question that I think it now being raised is, if DA2 has a really wide audience, who may not have been exposed to any medieval music at all, how influenced by medieval characteristics should DA2's music be? It may not be possible to create melodies that make sense to a generalised, modern ear while adhering to the characteristics of medival secular or sacred melodic tradition, for example.

/essay Sorry.

[Cathey]

Inon Zur is fantastic. I love his music for the Dragon Age series but also for LOTR:WITN.

[DahliaLynn]

@firky While he could be writing music that fits a particular genre or period, would you agree, that some music just feels better than others? His tendency to go to endless unexpected melodic places renders the music lackluster. Not because it's a genre requirement. It's his style in almost every piece he does regardless of what he writes for. One can very well write in a periodic style, and the music can actually feel good.

The link that @Cathey provided is an excellent example of this. It has an "almost" moment of feeling, but falls just short. It's redeeming quality is that in a few short moments you do get that feeling, (and it is just that tiny point where it caught on to being memorable) but its quickly lost again with the almost endless melodic progression that only meets resolve somewhere in the end of that phrase maze.

@Amstrad While I don't really see the bad in themes for a moment, had those themes been more interesting, I might not have minded so much. Plug in male chorus for Arishok. If anything, make that chorus sound interesting enough to make me *feel* like I'm talking to a great leader.

The recurring theme in my post is really "feeling". While he always shows potential to evoke a feeling, it always falls short. And that is why I don't think his style really fits the great drama that is Dragon Age.

The one thing that people may like about his stuff is the fact that whatever *is* memorable out of his works, is now associated with the Dragon Age experience, and people may fear that would be lost with another composer. But what if they were to find a composer who takes those themes to new levels of quality? If they can make such drastic changes from DA:O to DA2, nothing wrong with attempting to improve the music as well.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 05 mai 2012 - 02:33 .

[Sejborg]

 I have always felt that the Dragon Age soundtracks where lackluster. I'm not really a music expert, so I can't really pinpoint what the problem is, but I know that it bothers me.
I don't necessary want music that forces a feeling, but I still think that music should add to the atmosphere of a scene. I don't think Inon Zurs music is doing that.

I think Jesper Kyd could take over and do a better job than Inon Zur. Jesper Kyd has made music for Darksiders 2, Assasins Creed and Hitman. 

I wouldn't mind being down in the Deep Roads in an old thaig, exploring some amazing buildings and structures, killing some darkspawn and having music like this playing:
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Sejborg, 05 mai 2012 - 02:32 .

[DahliaLynn]

Sejborg wrote...

 I have always felt that the Dragon Age soundtracks where lackluster. I'm not really a music expert, so I can't really pinpoint what the problem is, but I know that it bothers me.
I don't necessary want music that forces a feeling, but I still think that music should add to the atmosphere of a scene. I don't think Inon Zurs music is doing that.

I think Jesper Kyd could take over and do a better job than Inon Zur. Jesper Kyd has made music for Darksiders 2, Assasins Creed and Hitman. 

I wouldn't mind being down in the Deep Roads in an old thaig, exploring some amazing buildings and structures, killing some darkspawn and having music like this playing:
www.youtube.com/watch

And precisely what I mean when I say feeling. Although the music you suggested for the Deep Roads is a bit too dominant for Deep Roads travel imo, (and too repetitive, which is exactly what Inon Zur seems to "fear") you're looking for something more dark and dismal, or simply, having a bit more emotion tacked on to the experience.  

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 05 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[chunkyman]

I say keep Inon Zur. The music was one of the few good parts of DA2.

[Sejborg]

DahliaLynn wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

 I have always felt that the Dragon Age soundtracks where lackluster. I'm not really a music expert, so I can't really pinpoint what the problem is, but I know that it bothers me.
I don't necessary want music that forces a feeling, but I still think that music should add to the atmosphere of a scene. I don't think Inon Zurs music is doing that.

I think Jesper Kyd could take over and do a better job than Inon Zur. Jesper Kyd has made music for Darksiders 2, Assasins Creed and Hitman. 

I wouldn't mind being down in the Deep Roads in an old thaig, exploring some amazing buildings and structures, killing some darkspawn and having music like this playing:
www.youtube.com/watch

And precisely what I mean when I say feeling. Although the music you suggested for the Deep Roads is a bit too dominant for Deep Roads travel imo, (and too repetitive, which is exactly what Inon Zur seems to "fear") you're looking for something more dark and dismal, or simply, having a bit more emotion tacked on to the experience.  

I meant something like that piece of music. Not that exact piece. We don't want any proplems with copyright and what not.  And also it was only supposed to be in one specific Thaigh - not the entire Deep Roads. But I see your point. It might even be too dominant for just one area of the Deep Roads. Perhaps for the boss fight then. 

I really think that Dragon Age should have unsettling music too, instead of just the somewhat cute candyfloss music there is now. As I said - i'm not an expert on music, so I don't know how to else describe it. But its all really light hearted. On the other hand, I think the candyfloss music fits DA2's cartoonish art style, so it just might be intended. I don't know. But it sure feels flat. 

Modifié par Sejborg, 05 mai 2012 - 03:30 .

[DahliaLynn]

I don't think candyfloss was the intent. I just listened to that piece you linked again, (here is a stereo version) and the great thing about it is that I imagined where it would be appropriate.

Visions of long caravans of people driven from their homes walking the deserts came to mind. Or a massive Mage siege on an entire city. Or even some important decision being made, and its consequences.  Point is, the music inspired my imagination. Most of Inon's music won't do that. (I say most, because he has certain pieces that do work well, even with his "continual melodic" formula)

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 05 mai 2012 - 04:30 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

His DAO soundtrack and had amazing tracks, but there was too much "combat" like music with no real melody.

[DahliaLynn]

I have to add, that while I dislike most of his music, it would be unfair of me not to mention his rare more incredible works.

In creating my scenes, I found the DA:O city elf piece to be particularly outstanding. While the music reminds me of a 1940's romantic/dramatic train station rendezvous in a black and white style film, I felt it appropriate (though edited) as an opening to my Fenris Machinima, and his dwarven theme although edited for climactic feel, was pretty good for the ending. I feel he shines most when he doesn't fear melodic repetition while offering variance in harmony. 

Not to mention Leliana's song I used for the Royal Wedding, which became full of emotion when I added visuals.

[DahliaLynn]

Filament wrote...

Maybe you could explain what this "going to unexpected places" means better? I never got that feeling from Inon Zur's work. I thought DA2 was slightly more "fresh" in terms of melodic direction but I saw that as a good thing. If Zur keeps going in this direction or doing stuff like in MotA (specifically the combat theme that starts around 10:10) I could be OK with him sticking around.

Do you mean that he focuses on melodic progression rather than staying
with one theme for a while and developing on it with variations? I can see how the melody moves on pretty quickly rather than staying on one theme for long in the Prosper battle, which also happens in the Arishok battle and maybe others, but I wouldn't necessarily call that going to "unexpected" places. Just going places. I suppose it could be a reason Zur's music generally feels lackluster, if he doesn't give things time to develop.

The link you provided for MotA was actually music written by N. Peace Nastades, (correct me if I'm wrong) who composed the music for the DA Redemption web series which while playing MotA, I found to be very refreshing indeed. The first link you provided seems akin to Zur's battle themes. To me it sounds random and pretty much lifeless.

If anything, I really loved the "drum only" track when you first learn to use Hawke in battle at the beginning of the game.

Regarding the "unexpected places", when you hear a melody, there are times when you expect it to go to a certain note or chord.  Zur makes every effort *not* hit that note. That leads to flat terrain. It is that precise natural expectancy to go to certain musical "places" which creates the delicate tension/resolve combo. With his music, there is a continuous tension that almost never resolves. So it's not that he doesn't give time to develop, he's spending too much time developing without giving any punch.  Of course this is really tough to explain, since aside from techincal stuff, it's about feeling. 

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 05 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[Firky]

DahliaLynn wrote...

@firky While he could be writing music that fits a particular genre or period, would you agree, that some music just feels better than others? His tendency to go to endless unexpected melodic places renders the music lackluster. Not because it's a genre requirement. It's his style in almost every piece he does regardless of what he writes for. One can very well write in a periodic style, and the music can actually feel good.

I, personally, wouldn't classify DA2's music as medieval period. I was just theorising that some of the characteristics of the medieval genre may have been used as influence, within a much freer model of composition.

On tension and release, I'd certainly agree that it's a really important thing in most composition, just that genres experience tension and release in different ways, and it may sometimes depend on what the listener's ear has been exposed to.

However, I would argue that there is medieval music which people consider "better." I'm really not sure if a medieval person, brought here in a time machine, would agree, though. "Sumer is icumen in" is a melody that modern singers love, in general, for example. What people thought of it at the time, though. I have no idea. So yes, within a genre, there is good and bad, in a general sense.

I do tend to see music in genre rather than composer. Like, you'd probably more likely to hear someone say, "I don't like baroque music," instead of "I don't like Telemann." Having said that, you'd get lots of people who know and like Bach as a "good" example of the baroque period. It's tricky.