113 réponses à ce sujet

[Sejborg]

Filament wrote...
 I never got that feeling from Inon Zur's work. I thought DA2 was slightly more "fresh" in terms of melodic direction but I saw that as a good thing. If Zur keeps going in this 

The music that starts about 26 seconds in, in that link you posted feels really out of place. Perhaps because it reminds me of this:
www.youtube.com/watch 

Modifié par Sejborg, 05 mai 2012 - 10:38 .

[AmstradHero]

AmstradHero wrote...

Yes! I could never put my finger on exactly what it was that bugged me about DA2's music and made it feel like it wasn't particularly good, but that's hit the nail on the head. It was always about an "event" or a "location", as though the music was saying "Now you're talking to the Arishok", "Now you're in Hawke's Estate", "Now you're talking to Templars", etc. The music felt as though it was overtly forcing those connections rather than letting the player make those connection themselves. The music wasn't really emotional (IMHO), and failed at being atmospheric because it was too overstated.

Filament wrote...
I don't think just having music tied to people or places really is the reason DA2's music 'went wrong.' If anything, I like having recurring motifs like that. If I had to speculate why those themes don't do anything for me, it might be that those motifs in DA2 are still too atmospheric and low-key, so you can hardly tell that they're supposed to be motifs for the characters or places they represent.

It's sort of the same with ME2. All of the characters actually have themes, but practically none of them make me think "Garrus" or "Miranda." Though, I'm not sure I would like the characters in ME to have recognizable motifs, so perhaps that's a mercy.

DahliaLynn wrote...
 While I don't really see the bad in themes for a moment, had those themes been more interesting, I might not
have minded so much. Plug in male chorus for Arishok. If anything, make that chorus sound interesting enough to make me *feel* like I'm talking to a great leader.

I agree with both of you that I don't mind themes. I've loved character and location themes for quite some time - I got attached to the idea since playing BG2 and hearing Jaheira's theme every time the player had a romance dialogue with her.

For me where the DA2 soundtrack fails is that it tries to force that attachment/association rather than letting the player make it themselves. The link between the chosen instruments and/or stylings is too direct for me to like it because it feels like the player is being directly told the feeling rather than being allowed to experience it. e.g. For the Arishok it feels like the player is being explicitly told (in a music fashion):
"DAAA DUM -  You're talking to an important person -
aaaaah, aaaaah - he's male and manly and can break you in two -
daaa-da-da-da-dum - he is going to cause great strife in Kirkwall.
dadada/aaaaaaaah - it is going to be a disaster and people will die"

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it's just the feeling that I get from it. It's like the music is written from an intellectual perspective rather than an emotional one.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 05 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[DahliaLynn]

Firky wrote...

I do tend to see music in genre rather than
composer. Like, you'd probably more likely to hear someone say, "I
don't like baroque music," instead of "I don't like Telemann." Having
said that, you'd get lots of people who know and like Bach as a
"good" example of the baroque period. It's tricky.

I can understand that. I may not like heavy metal, but I certainly loved a few songs by Rush, like Subdivisions or Tom Sawyer.  True that one could be a genre fan in general. In this case, given that games are based on fantasy worlds, designers have free reign as to the type of atmosphere they want to create. But in the end it's the actual work of the composer, how he interprets the mood and the final product he comes up with.

Filament wrote...
The first link you provided seems akin to Zur's battle themes. To me it sounds random and pretty much lifeless.
Really? I thought it was a lot more interesting than the usual dull battle themes that make up the entirety of Origins and most of DA2. Sort of reminiscent of Bach's (famous) fugue.

I guess if I really try, I can differentiate the tonality of the bass/cello string section. Had it been played on piano without all that wild beatage, it probably could sound appropriate for something. I guess it was that combo and style that reminded me of the DA:O slow unevenly paced battle music.

Filament wrote...

Dahlialynn wrote...
Regarding the "unexpected places", when you hear a melody, there are times when you expect it to go to a certain note or chord.  Zur makes every effort *not* hit that note. That leads to flat terrain. It is that precise natural expectancy to go to certain musical "places" which creates the delicate tension/resolve combo. With his music, there is a continuous tension that almost never resolves. So it's not that he doesn't give time to develop, he's spending too much time developing without giving any punch.  Of course this is really tough to explain, since aside from techincal stuff, it's about feeling. 

So you mean he meanders about in the same area without ever taking it where it "should" go? In the noncombat themes, I suppose I could see that. If that's what you mean. Still not really seeing it. Unresolved tension can be deliberate and fitting, it seems like the issue with Zur's music would depend on more than that alone.

I agree, it could be deliberate and very fitting. But as I see it, it seems to be a standard in most all of his works.

AmstradHero wrote...
It's like the music is written from an intellectual perspective rather than an emotional one.

And that's hitting the nail smack on the head. Technically, his stuff sounds all complicated and probably looks good on paper. Technically, a male chorus should imply a sense of doom. A rolling snare drum / major toned theme implies an army and sense of accomplishment during the DA:O Epilogue. But just having the right elements on paper doesnt make it a good piece. You can teach a person to play music, you can't teach him to play it with feel. I'm not saying that he doesn't feel his stuff. Some of it is is just amazing. But I really think he's too busy trying to make it complicated, trying to be different and perhaps fearing repetition, or simplicity which sometimes can be the best form.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 06 mai 2012 - 12:39 .

[Firky]

Yeah. I agree with that too. DA2's music feels very careful, or something. Possibly a bit contrived.

I think all the musical composition I've ever attempted, myself, has always come out sounding a bit too formulaic. I was always amazed by High School students' compositions and how some of them could be quite musically raw, or flawed, but still be full of heart. Heart is a difficult quality to capture.

I think composing (and definitely performing) with expression/heart/whatever, can be taught/learned, but it does seem to come really naturally to some people.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "intellectual" music, or music without climax or whatever. I adore genres like minimalism which are highly structured etc. The question is about what's the best approach for games, I guess.

Also, can music force a feeling, or manipulate the "correct" feeling out of the audience? Should it? More tricky questions. (But cool discussion.)

[Esbatty]

I like his music, some of the themes just really stick with me due to the scenes where they pop up in the games while other pieces I don't remember from the games but do strike a chord with me when I'm listening to them on my mp3 player.

[Agent_Dark_]

I think go with Inon Zur, but also include some more 'modern' sounding music in the game to give extra 'oomph' to specific encounters. One of the things I really like about Half-Life and Half-Life 2 is that music is used sparingly, but when it is used you know something cool is happening or going to happen.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I really dug Marilyn Manson being used in the trailer and would have loved to have an epic pure action scene where you get to just carve up Darkspawn with some Manson playing. Or that really brooding guitar piece from one of the earlier DA:O trailers (where the Grey Warden is walking up to the door in the Deep Roads ready to face the Darkspawn horde, with Duncan voice-over talking about what it means to be a Grey Warden).

While I have nothing against more 'traditional' fantasy RPG music, I think they should perhaps try to blend a bit more with the type of music they've used in the marketing of the previous games.

[nightscrawl]

Filament wrote...

For a second I thought you were recommending Clarence Thomas.

Lol I thought the same.

brushyourteeth wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

Brush, aside from the main theme could you hum or even recognize a single other tunr/musical cue from DAO or DA2?

Many series have changed composer as they have gone on, it is a matter of who they pick that determines the net change.

Well I own both soundtracks and a few tracks from the Leliana's Song DLC, so that's technically cheating, but my answer's yes.

I have the DAO and DA2 OST, so it's not quite fair for me to answer this either. However, I certainly recognize the Hawke Family Theme, Qunari on the Rise, and Fenris's Theme, but that is primarily because I have played DA2 over a dozen times, so I've heard the music while playing... a lot. I can say the same for DAO.

While I like the various themes, I don't find the action music to be very exciting. On the other hand, I do own the Neverwinter Nights soundtrack by Jeremy Soule, which is very good, has all of the various fight and dungeon music, and is quite entertaining.

I don't see why they couldn't use multiple composers for multiple purposes. If Inon Zur does good themes that evoke emotion (I think they do) but not good action music, then get someone else to do the action music. Blizzard has 3-4 composers for their various music in each expansion. /shrug

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm truly sorry that you didn't love the music as much as I did. Mr. Zur admitted publicly that the DAII soundtrack was a "rush job" so that may have had something to do with it.

*SIGH* Does that have to define everything about this game? It's starting to get really irritating. (This isn't directed at you Brush, just a general statement.)

[dracuella]

nightscrawl wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'm truly sorry that you didn't love the music as much as I did. Mr. Zur admitted publicly that the DAII soundtrack was a "rush job" so that may have had something to do with it.

*SIGH* Does that have to define everything about this game? It's starting to get really irritating. (This isn't directed at you Brush, just a general statement.)

I think it's more saddening than irritating since it gives me a sense of ill foreboding about the oncoming DA3 and how it might be implemented. Of course we can hope that EA lets Bioware do what Bioware does best and gives them the time they need to do so properly. 
I read the rush-job link and sort of got stuck on the comment:
"EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game was really being pushed hard to be released now".
Shouldn't they know by now that if a franchise is solid enough, the fans will gladly wait a few years for a sequel? Look at Diablo, Baldur's gate. 
Take your time, EA! Dragon Age is made of the stuff  that keeps us patiently pining for the next installment. 

[Red Templar]

Inon Zur is one of the last people who should go. His music is part of the soul of the franchise. What DA needs is for trivial, purposeless changes to be rolled back, not for more to made for the sake of whimsy.

[Leoroc]

 I don't see how people can say Zur's music like "Bone Pit Battle" 
 is part of the soul of DA and wouldn't prefer something like Bajakian's "Reckless" 
 or Thomas's "Rite of Conquest" 
http://gh.ffshrine.org/song/1954/15 in its place.

[brushyourteeth]

Brockololly wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

I have to agree that Zur's main themes are good (Fallout, DAO) most of his stuff is just....there.

Exactly- he's decent for coming up with a main theme but beyond that, its all quite forgettable.

I actually found both soundtracks pretty memorable, though to each their own. You can definitely tell in both games that some songs are meant to be ambient ("Enter the Korcari Wilds") and some make a much stronger impression (Ruins of Ostagar). Listen closely and you'll find that many of the melodic themes are repeated in more than one song (the Chantry and the Circle are connected, for instance) which could lead someone to feel as if every song sounds the same. So fair enough.

I think it obvious that anyone talented enough to come up with a memorable main theme is certainly capable of making more. The answer to that mystery is right in front of us - it's the same reason the Iron Man soundtrack doesn't play AC/DC for the entire movie experience. It's the same reason you can't hum every piece of music from LotR either. In-Your-Face (often confused with memorable) music is great when you're in the menu, but it's distracting when you're trying to explore a dusty corner of Thedas or convince your companions to open up about their past.

To me this shows that Inon Zur is a fantastic composer who knows that his music is simply part of a backdrop, and not the star of the show.

But I think his music is perfect for DA, and obviously plenty of other competent adults disagree - so there you go.

[DahliaLynn]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

I have to agree that Zur's main themes are good (Fallout, DAO) most of his stuff is just....there.

Exactly- he's decent for coming up with a main theme but beyond that, its all quite forgettable.

I actually found both soundtracks pretty memorable, though to each their own. You can definitely tell in both games that some songs are meant to be ambient ("Enter the Korcari Wilds") and some make a much stronger impression (Ruins of Ostagar). Listen closely and you'll find that many of the melodic themes are repeated in more than one song (the Chantry and the Circle are connected, for instance) which could lead someone to feel as if every song sounds the same. So fair enough.

I think it obvious that anyone talented enough to come up with a memorable main theme is certainly capable of making more. The answer to that mystery is right in front of us - it's the same reason the Iron Man soundtrack doesn't play AC/DC for the entire movie experience. It's the same reason you can't hum every piece of music from LotR either. In-Your-Face (often confused with memorable) music is great when you're in the menu, but it's distracting when you're trying to explore a dusty corner of Thedas or convince your companions to open up about their past.

To me this shows that Inon Zur is a fantastic composer who knows that his music is simply part of a backdrop, and not the star of the show.

But I think his music is perfect for DA, and obviously plenty of other competent adults disagree - so there you go.

I don't think anyone concluded that everything sounds the same. What has been established (at least by a few) is that his writing methods continue to use the same blandish formula in most all of his melody/harmony combos. It's perfectly fine and even appropriate that themes sound similar. But if the themes themselves aren't really pleasant or evokative, then they aren't doing their job well. It's also not about being able to remember. Some of his tunes are really good. I doubt anyone can hum all the pieces of the Gladiator soundtrack, yet it provides an excellent backdrop to the events of the film as they happen.

Very true, the music should not overbear. I don't think that's what people are suggesting be done. His music typically takes a backdrop regardless of the situation, because it isn't really noteworthy for the most part. 

As I said before, some people might take his few noteworthy pieces and come to the conclusion that he's amazing on the whole. I personally can't agree. I can only say that if he let go of some of his constraints, he really could be amazing. So far the majority of his work shows otherwise.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 06 mai 2012 - 10:49 .

[brushyourteeth]

I think we'll just have to disagree, because I like him for all the same reasons that you want to like him. I wish I knew where the disconnect was.

I think great game and movie music is like a set of soft cotton sheets. When you first settle into it, you realize how amazing it is but for most of the time you're not really thinking about it. You'll still have those moments where you think "Gosh, this is amazing!" but generally your mind is elsewhere and it just helps create a comfortable backdrop. It may only be when something is actually wrong that you take much notice of it again (as in the WTF music moment when Leandra gives up the ghost).

[TEWR]

Seriously, Nobuo Uematsu or Yoko Shimomura.

Their work perfectly captures every type of area. A Fleeting Dream, Auron's Theme, Mt. Gagazet's theme, the Hymn of the Faith, and a slew of other FFX tracks are some of my favorite Uematsu tracks.

And Yoko Shimomura actually creates music that reflects the area it's put in well, IMO. Those two composers are probably the main reason why video game music is something I enjoy listening to. I enjoy listening to Scherzo di Notte

They know what they do. Their work isn't just intellectually superb and stimulating, but emotionally captivating a great deal of the time IMO.

Filament wrote...

I think of moments like this or this in reference

Exactly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mai 2012 - 05:25 .

[nightscrawl]

Leoroc wrote...

 I don't see how people can say Zur's music like "Bone Pit Battle" 
 is part of the soul of DA and wouldn't prefer something like Bajakian's "Reckless" 
 or Thomas's "Rite of Conquest" 
http://gh.ffshrine.org/song/1954/15 in its place.

It's all subjective though.

You could easily say "I don't see how people can say [plain] chocolate ice cream is the best and wouldn't prefer it with chunks of brownies and syrup."

People like what they like. If that wasn't the case there wouldn't be 55 thousand flavors and brands of ice cream. It really seems that subjective arguments, and a failure to step outside yourself to see what and why others may like is a huge problem when discussing anything about this game. Music included apparently.

Filament wrote...

I wouldn't say all of Zur's work is forgettable outside of the main theme, but even for his works that are memorable, some of them are hindered by other issues, like being relegated to inconsequential areas (Lake Calenhad docks theme) that don't give them much to "contribute" to, or being practically inaudible relative to the combat themes.

Well that's hardly his fault...


I was recently able to go to The Legend of Zelda 25th Anniversary Symphony, and let me say it was amazing. It's always wonderful to hear music as it's meant to be heard (with the right acoustics and so forth). Koji Kondo is one of my favorite game composers.

I think one of the things that Zur doesn't do well is music that fits with the content of an area. His best work in this regard I think is the Qunari music, which is outstanding. But I don't find anything similar with the rest. Using Zelda as an example, the themes for Gerudo Valley, Kakariko Village, and Kokiri Forest are all very memorable and fitting to the environment/atmosphere.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 07 mai 2012 - 06:29 .

[BubbleDncr]

I love the Dragon Age soundtracks, no problem here.

[Bethgael]

Butting in for a sec, sorry....

One composer who is good at evoking emotion (I agree with Dahliah Lynn and Firky: Zur tends to be emotionless, but I also agree it's a bit late now, given the thematic Origins - 3), while also being able to copy style, Robert Duncan http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0242084/

That so-and-so wrote the themes for that stupid final episode of Buffy that makes me tear up every time even though I'm an emotionless hag who can't stand Buffy. And he'd be cheaper than Zimmer (who tends to write 3/4 everything, anyhow. Play Gladiator with POTC. It's the same theme *grin* I love him, but he tends to heavy hand stuff)

Having said that, with the exception on main themes, credits, and what-have-you, I feel that background play music shouldn't need to be "memorable"... if it's too far gone, it bounces you out of the world and back to "oh, wow, I'm playing a game and ain't the music great?" I like seamless everything: writing, dialogue, voice, music, combat. I think the Elder Scrolls franchise has done a good job of seamless, while also being music I throw on my playlist when writing. DA:O is seamless-ish, but doesn't stand alone very well for the most part (that's subjective, of course).

Okay, butting out again.

Modifié par Bethgael, 09 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[wsandista]

I'll take Inon Zur and his overrated background music if it means DA3 is like DAO

[Kidd]

I don't by any means dislike the music in DA, but it seems so much less memorable to me than, say, the ME music. If you asked me to hum a few songs from ME, I could do so easily. DA? Well there's a "few" by definition, but they're far fewer. I'm not sure if this is a fair comparison though. If the music immerses me in the scene (and I do believe it does that) then that should be enough.

What I do know is that I've never removed my hands from my controller to up the volume when a particular song comes on, like I've done numerous times to, say, Mitsuda's amazing soundtracks. Bonds of Sea and Fire comes to mind as a very in-your-face melodic song, as does Tower of Ruin as more of a immersive piece (that part about one minute into the song? yeah, instant goosebumps every.single.time).

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 09 mai 2012 - 11:11 .

[Firky]

Bethgael wrote...
(I agree with Dahliah Lynn and Firky: Zur tends to be emotionless, but I also agree it's a bit late now, given the thematic Origins - 3)

It's not precisely that I think DA2's music is emotionless, just that it seems to be employing devices that don't entirely adhere to what makes music (in a very general sense) evocative to the modern, Western ear. Like, tension and release, in a grand harmonic sense, which was raised earlier. Certainly there is tension and release within the melody of Hawke's Family theme, for example, but it's suspension/resting note rather than obvious cadence. And, perhaps the music is not entirely always tied well to the visual/story element.

(It's an important clarification because I do think the music is evocative, but it's more a result of very wide exposure to genre and musical analysis, rather than what I might hear and what might move me. It's hard to explain.)

[MichaelStuart]

I had no problem with the music in Dragon age 2, except for the end credits song. It was a good song, I just felt it was out of place with the rest of the music.

[DahliaLynn]

There's music that gives me goosebumps when I hear it ; Music that excites me; Music that brings my emotions to a higher state, tunes that evoke happiness, suspense, and even put me on edge. Music can remind me of an era due to education and exposure.  The purpose of music in a game is to evoke these feelings, associations and emotions while playing, not so that you can hum it or remember it, but so that the experience can immerse you into the atmosphere of the moment wherever it may be. It's about music's subconscious effect. You aren't supposed to notice it. (unless you are looking for it, but that's not the point when you play.) 

One can certainly listen to his pieces outside of the game and appreciate their complexity, or the memories associated with the game. Memorable experiences in the game will always be directly associated with what you hear in the background. But mere association or memory sparking isn't enough to make the grade for emotional evocation. With repeated playthroughs you can probably get used to it, and even like it, but the idea is for it to work from the very first time. 

There are composers who really know how to bring such feelings out in me. I wish I could get that added bonus experience from Dragon Age. 

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 09 mai 2012 - 01:48 .