127 réponses à ce sujet

[Wozearly]

Atakuma wrote...

You didn't need a toolset for custom armors and weapons in DA2. Even if it did cut into dlc sales, it would only be for PC players, which are a small minority.

Significant minority, methinks, but point taken.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

This is false for two demonstrable reasons:

#1. The largest factor in DLC sales by far
is whether the game is installed. Toolsets and mods keep people
replaying the game, which keeps the game installed. You may not buy the
item packs, but you are probably much more likely to buy story DLC.
Others might buy them anyway, because they want additional models for
retexturing - I know a modder who did just that.

#2. Putting out
professional-quality work will always have a market, even if there are
good amateurs out there. Valve sells hats and other items via
microtransactions in Team Fortress 2. They also released hat creator
tools for players as well. Valve's hats are still considerably higher
quality than the player-created ones. Their sales have not
suffered. Bethesda does the same - they put out a creation kit with the
last few Elder Scrolls games, and they still sell paid DLC. 

Captain Obvious strikes with point #1 - naturally, DLC sales will be dictated by whether someone owns the game or not. Its hard to see why you would buy DLC that you couldn't play. This query was whether the item stats are a significant factor in deciding to purchase item DLC. If they are, allowing player-created upgraded weapons would naturally be expected to detract from item DLC sales - not necessarily to the point where they were inherantly unprofitable.

Point 2 is entirely valid, although I don't know how we could prove that sales did or didn't suffer as a result of allowing players the ability to create hats - we'd need a control group where the toolkit wasn't available for comparison purposes.

It would be very hard to judge whether there are greater gains via player-made content leading to additional content purchases via DLC or additional sales of the franchise or cross-sales with other games from that publisher than there would be losses via community 'competition' against item DLC sales. But if I was coming at it purely with a sales and marketing hat on, I'd prefer not to give the community the tools to compete directly with something I was selling.

I wasn't suggesting that item DLC was the reason for the lack of a toolset. Merely that sales of the type of item DLC that Bioware has produced recently could reasonably be affected by the presence of a toolset, if people are influenced by the stats of the item they're purchasing. Intuitively, releasing items with inferior stats to existing in-game weapons would be a less effective sales proposition, so I don't think it can be entirely written off...

[mesmerizedish]

Wozearly wrote...

Captain Obvious strikes with point #1 - naturally, DLC sales will be dictated by whether someone owns the game or not. Its hard to see why you would buy DLC that you couldn't play. This query was whether the item stats are a significant factor in deciding to purchase item DLC. If they are, allowing player-created upgraded weapons would naturally be expected to detract from item DLC sales - not necessarily to the point where they were inherantly unprofitable.

You're misunderstanding. She didn't say "has the game," she said "has the game installed." If I've uninstalled DAII, I'm less likely to buy its DLC. If there's a toolset and other players are continuously generating custom content, that's more reason for me to keep the game on my hard disc until BioWare release official content.

[Sutekh]

Wozearly wrote...

Captain Obvious strikes with point #1 - naturally, DLC sales will be dictated by whether someone owns the game or not. Its hard to see why you would buy DLC that you couldn't play. 

I don't think Hooray's point is whether the game is owned, but whether it's still installed (i.e. still in activity). Mods helps keeping the game alive. So, when DLCs show up, the player is more likely to buy them than for a uninstalled, forgotten game.

Edit: :ph34r:ed.

Modifié par Sutekh, 16 mai 2012 - 09:54 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You're misunderstanding. She didn't say "has the game," she said "has the game installed." If I've uninstalled DAII, I'm less likely to buy its DLC. If there's a toolset and other players are continuously generating custom content, that's more reason for me to keep the game on my hard disc until BioWare release official content.

Exactly.

I've uninstalled DA2 now, so I'm extremely unlikely to acquire anything new for it, but when I did have it installed I bought Legacy.

But that wouldn't have happened without the Diversified Follower Armours mod.  Forced to endure iconic appearances, I likely would have uninstalled the game sooner and not bought Legacy.

[Wozearly]

Sutekh wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

Captain Obvious strikes with point #1 - naturally, DLC sales will be dictated by whether someone owns the game or not. Its hard to see why you would buy DLC that you couldn't play. 

I don't think Hooray's point is whether the game is owned, but whether it's still installed (i.e. still in activity). Mods helps keeping the game alive. So, when DLCs show up, the player is more likely to buy them than for a uninstalled, forgotten game.

Edit: :ph34r:ed.

Youre quite right, I completely misread hooray's point. Happy to withdraw the Captain Obvious comment. 

[The_11thDoctor]

Im all in for a toolset. I like controllers, but if DA2 had a toolset, I would have bought it on PC. If DA3 has a toolset, I'm in. I'd hope they'd finally put one in, but if that is their CE version or DLC, then I'd get that vs any other stupid day 1 dlc...

[Merlex]

Atakuma wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

@AFW That was my original point. However Atakuma believes that is undoable, because of the multiplatforms that DA3 will be released on. I personally believe that the game should be built primarlly for the PC, and then let it be made to fit the consoles, as well as possible, afterwards. I can see the point, of console users not wanting to pay for a toolset that they are unable to use, thus the suggestion of making it paid dlc.

I seem to have confused what you menat. what I thought you were saying was to use the toolset as the primary source of a hypothetical multiplayer component, which would be unfair to console players. However, If you just mean a toolset as an extra like like DAO then I have no problem with that.

I'm sorry that console users are limited in what they can do. But to suggest that pc users be limited for 'fairness' is crap. That was the same logic used to take away tactic slots over twenty in one of the patches.

I would gladly pay a little extra for a pc version of the game, if it had more features. It's a little sad to look on Nexus and see no new lands or quests for DA2. There are a lot for DAO. After about 4 playthroughs, i can't a game without some modding.

[KingRoxas]

If they choose to release a toolset it will be a big + from me.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Yes, DA 3 should definitely have a toolset.

Or if not provide some kind of update to DA:O toolset, in case the DA3 uses the same engine as DA1.

[deuce985]

Old thread revived. I'd like it too but it's not likely a possibility...

Modifié par deuce985, 28 juillet 2012 - 05:49 .

[Emzamination]

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

[PhillyB]

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

Is there a history of mental disability in your family?

[Emzamination]

PhillyB wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

Is there a history of mental disability in your family?

You have a point somewhere in there or...?

[Fallstar]

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

What. If anything it shows that Bioware's current dlc is substandard if users can create mods that somehow threaten their dlc sales. Dawnguard was popular for Skyrim despite the plethora of available mods.

[Amycus89]

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

:blink:um, ok... could you please elaborate? Since when is more content (not to mention free) a bad thing? The only reason oblivion managed to be so popular for so long (which kept the number of sales up unti skyrim was released) was thanks to the mods - not to mention that it helped Bethesda with some ideas by looking at what people modded in, they have already confirmed that in interviews prior to the release of skyrim. One of the main reasons why people didn't like DA2 was because they completely ignored everything about the old game (complaints included) and just overhauled the whole thing. 

Not to mention that some competition, if you so will, usually just increases the quality for consumers, that is us in this case. Assuming that Bioware really feel threatened by other users who have less time, money, resources and knowledge, then something is obviously very wrong.

If that isn't enough for you, look at Neverwinter nights that is still being played to this day. The main campaign was really boring, and I was personally just barely able to play through it (though the expansion "hordes of the underdark" was excellent). What made people contnue playing it back then and to this day is, dare I say, solely thanks to the powerful and easy to learn toolset.

Modifié par Amycus89, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:15 .

[Emzamination]

DuskWarden wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

What. If anything it shows that Bioware's current dlc is substandard if users can create mods that somehow threaten their dlc sales. Dawnguard was popular for Skyrim despite the plethora of available mods.

No matter how sub-standard you think the dlc may be, if given the chance modders will duplicate dlc wep/armor models not for appreciation of the models but to stick it to bioware that they don't have to pay.The money from those sales go to fund future projects and other dlc.Nothing in this industry gets done without money and bioware needs alot of it to keep delivering HQ titles and content.Anyone who downloads replica mods is no different than those pirates torrenting games for free.When we try to bypass the system, we only end up hurting ourselves in the end.

[PhillyB]

Emzamination wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

What. If anything it shows that Bioware's current dlc is substandard if users can create mods that somehow threaten their dlc sales. Dawnguard was popular for Skyrim despite the plethora of available mods.

No matter how sub-standard you think the dlc may be, if given the chance modders will duplicate dlc wep/armor models not for appreciation of the models but to stick it to bioware that they don't have to pay.The money from those sales go to fund future projects and other dlc.Nothing in this industry gets done without money and bioware needs alot of it to keep delivering HQ titles and content.Anyone who downloads replica mods is no different than those pirates torrenting games for free.When we try to bypass the system, we only end up hurting ourselves in the end.

[Emzamination]

Amycus89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

:blink:um, ok... could you please elaborate? Since when is more content (not to mention free) a bad thing? The only reason oblivion managed to be so popular for so long (which kept the number of sales up unti skyrim was released) was thanks to the mods - not to mention that it helped Bethesda with some ideas by looking at what people modded in, they have already confirmed that in interviews prior to the release of skyrim. One of the main reasons why people didn't like DA2 was because they completely ignored everything about the old game (complaints included) and just overhauled the whole thing. 

Not to mention that some competition, if you so will, usually just increases the quality for consumers, that is us in this case. Assuming that Bioware really feel threatened by other users who have less time, money, resources and knowledge, then something is obviously very wrong.

Free is very bad in the long run, it cost the company money and the fans new titles/content.Nothing is ever free in this industry, free just means you'll pay later whether.it be a longer developement cycle or anticipated projects cut due to lack of funding.The only armor dlc Bethesda released for oblivion was the unforgettable 'horse armor' and even that was replicated despite all its bad press, other than that their dlc is story/quest based.Having more consumers is useless if they aren't paying.One only has to buy a game once but Dlc is steady flow of revanue.

If that isn't enough for you, look at
Neverwinter nights that is still being played to this day. The main
campaign was really boring, and I was personally just barely able to
play through it (though the expansion "hordes of the underdark" was
excellent). What made people contnue playing it back then and to this
day is, dare I say, solely thanks to the powerful and easy to learn
toolset.

Sorry Amy but games must be played out the way the developer wrote them.Modifying the story of a game because you thought it was boring is not cool, just use your receipt to return it and let someone more appreciative of the developers work enjoy it.

Modifié par Emzamination, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:36 .

[Amycus89]

Emzamination wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

What. If anything it shows that Bioware's current dlc is substandard if users can create mods that somehow threaten their dlc sales. Dawnguard was popular for Skyrim despite the plethora of available mods.

No matter how sub-standard you think the dlc may be, if given the chance modders will duplicate dlc wep/armor models not for appreciation of the models but to stick it to bioware that they don't have to pay.The money from those sales go to fund future projects and other dlc.Nothing in this industry gets done without money and bioware needs alot of it to keep delivering HQ titles and content.Anyone who downloads replica mods is no different than those pirates torrenting games for free.When we try to bypass the system, we only end up hurting ourselves in the end.

Ok, I feel like I need to say something here, since I'm one of those who ported many DA2 armors to DA:O that is now available for free ( http://dragonage.nex...s.com/mods/3098  ). That was something that I did with Bioware's permission (   http://forums.nexusm...88#entry3544688  ), which I was actually surprised over, because:

Why did Bioware actually permit this, when they easily could have done the same work I have done so far (just much faster and better),and released it as paid DLC so that DA:O player could get access to these models, AS WELL as increase the size of their wallets? Would have saved me a lot of time too... Either way, my point is, since Bioware appears to have no desire to release these armors to DA:O as paid DLC, the DA:O players will either
A) stand around foolishly while never having access to the many armors in DA2.
Wait for a modder to do what Bioware for whatever reason has decided not to do.

(I can also add that if Bioware ever do decide to release it to DA:O as paid DLC, I will happily take down my mod *hint, hint* )

As far as I am aware, an active modding community is just helping sales. As others have said, people are less inclined to buy DLC if they no longer have it installed on their computer. And having mods available increases the longivity of games. It can also fix large bugs or weird design choices that can qmake people on the fence from bad reviews decide to get it in the end. Take the mod that unlocks your companion's armor slots in DA2 for example.

And I once again take NWN as an example, without the toolset NWN would probably have been a failure from the start.

[Amycus89]

Emzamination wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

:blink:um, ok... could you please elaborate? Since when is more content (not to mention free) a bad thing? The only reason oblivion managed to be so popular for so long (which kept the number of sales up unti skyrim was released) was thanks to the mods - not to mention that it helped Bethesda with some ideas by looking at what people modded in, they have already confirmed that in interviews prior to the release of skyrim. One of the main reasons why people didn't like DA2 was because they completely ignored everything about the old game (complaints included) and just overhauled the whole thing. 

Not to mention that some competition, if you so will, usually just increases the quality for consumers, that is us in this case. Assuming that Bioware really feel threatened by other users who have less time, money, resources and knowledge, then something is obviously very wrong.

Free is very bad in the long run, it cost the company money and the fans new titles/content.Nothing is ever free in this industry, free just means you'll pay later whether.it be a longer developement cycle or anticipated projects cut due to lack of funding.The only armor dlc Bethesda released for oblivion was the unforgettable 'horse armor' and even that was replicated despite all its bad press, other than that their dlc is story/quest based.Having more consumers is useless if they aren't paying.One only has to buy a game once but Dlc is steady flow of revanue.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie] So.. with your theory, free demos should be stopped as well... brilliant. Absolutely brilliant... 

If that isn't enough for you, look at
Neverwinter nights that is still being played to this day. The main
campaign was really boring, and I was personally just barely able to
play through it (though the expansion "hordes of the underdark" was
excellent). What made people contnue playing it back then and to this
day is, dare I say, solely thanks to the powerful and easy to learn
toolset.

Sorry Amy but games must be played out the way the developer wrote them.Modifying the story of a game because you thought it was boring is not cool, just use your receipt to return it and let someone more appreciative of the developers work enjoy it.

...Something tells me you never played NWN, because that comment didn't make much sense. I sure don't know any mods that changed the main story? I'm actually pretty certain that was one of the things that the toolset locked you from. No, what the toolset allowed you to do (among other things) was create your own adventures. It was pretty much the whole selling point of the game, where the main story was there to illustrate what was possible (or at least that was how it felt to me). There were tons of resources in the toolset that was never used in the "official" campaigns as far as I know.

EDIT: Either way, my opinion is that a toolset benefits not only the players, but the devs as well. Why do you think other developers release their own free DLCs otherwise? Because it obviously helps to sell the base game. And more sales of the base game results in more potential buyers for DLC (since no one buys DLCs to games they don't own)

So the only "negative" is when modders recreate a DLC and release it for free. But if you ask me, that is quite rare. I havn't seen any DA2 mods that remake all the items packs. I certainly havn't seen any that recreated the stories. Same goes from DA:O. And any older Bioware game to my knowledge. Can you even give one example of this yourself?

And even if that was the case, it shouldn't be impossible to tell the modders what they can't do. Bethesda suddenly decided that a mod called morrowblivion wasnt allowed because it recreated the game morrowind in Oblivion, even though the mod required both games being installed in your computer at the same time in order to be used.

Modifié par Amycus89, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:58 .

[Emzamination]

Amycus89 wrote...

Ok, I feel like I need to say something here, since I'm one of those who ported many DA2 armors to DA:O that is now available for free ( http://dragonage.nex...s.com/mods/3098  ). That was something that I did with Bioware's permission (   http://forums.nexusm...88#entry3544688  ), which I was actually surprised over, because:

Why did Bioware actually permit this, when they easily could have done the same work I have done so far (just much faster and better),and released it as paid DLC so that DA:O player could get access to these models, AS WELL as increase the size of their wallets? Would have saved me a lot of time too... Either way, my point is, since Bioware appears to have no desire to release these armors to DA:O as paid DLC, the DA:O players will either
A) stand around foolishly while never having access to the many armors in DA2.
Wait for a modder to do what Bioware for whatever reason has decided not to do.

(I can also add that if Bioware ever do decide to release it to DA:O as paid DLC, I will happily take down my mod *hint, hint* )

As far as I am aware, an active modding community is just helping sales. As others have said, people are less inclined to buy DLC if they no longer have it installed on their computer. And having mods available increases the longivity of games. It can also fix large bugs or weird design choices that can qmake people on the fence from bad reviews decide to get it in the end. Take the mod that unlocks your companion's armor slots in DA2 for example.

And I once again take NWN as an example, without the toolset NWN would probably have been a failure from the start.

Sorry Amy that post doesn't look very official to me, it just looks like nexus trying to cover their tails incase bioware came across any copyrighted content.You would think they'd have a link to an official Faq on a bioware site, not just copy and paste in a pretty box.Bioware released the toolset for DA:O to allow users to create and share their own 'personal' content and style for their wardens but that wasn't enough, they started replicating things like the blood dragon armor and king cailans armor from return to ostagar stalling bioware sales so now it is no more and they have only themselves to blame.My point is modders shouldn't be given tools to bootleg any form of bioware content that's turning a profit.How is a modding community helping sales? If people are downloading content for free, why would they bother paying for it? It's destroying sales.Nwn was a really good game actually

[Emzamination]

Amycus89 wrote...

So.. with your theory, free demos should be stopped as well... brilliant. Absolutely brilliant... 

When the Da2 and Me3 demos were released to the public some users data mined the files and released story spoilers a week before release no doubt killing a signifigant number of sales because who is going to buy a story when they already know how its going to end? Thank you, it was indeed brillant.

...Something tells me you never played NWN, because that comment didn't make much sense. I sure don't know any mods that changed the main story? I'm actually pretty certain that was one of the things that the toolset locked you from. No, what the toolset allowed you to do (among other things) was create your own adventures. It was pretty much the whole selling point of the game, where the main story was there to illustrate what was possible (or at least that was how it felt to me). There were tons of resources in the toolset that was never used in the "official" campaigns as far as I know.

That's my point, if the developer didn't pen it, it didn't happen like fan fiction.You shouldn't make your own adventures.

[Amycus89]

Emzamination wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

So.. with your theory, free demos should be stopped as well... brilliant. Absolutely brilliant... 

When the Da2 and Me3 demos were released to the public some users data mined the files and released story spoilers a week before release no doubt killing a signifigant number of sales because who is going to buy a story when they already know how its going to end? Thank you, it was indeed brillant.

...Something tells me you never played NWN, because that comment didn't make much sense. I sure don't know any mods that changed the main story? I'm actually pretty certain that was one of the things that the toolset locked you from. No, what the toolset allowed you to do (among other things) was create your own adventures. It was pretty much the whole selling point of the game, where the main story was there to illustrate what was possible (or at least that was how it felt to me). There were tons of resources in the toolset that was never used in the "official" campaigns as far as I know.

That's my point, if the developer didn't pen it, it didn't happen like fan fiction.You shouldn't make your own adventures.

Well that is one accusation for Nexus I thought I would never see:lol: - usually they get accused of the exact opposite, of being a bit too ban hammer-happy when they see ported content. I know that there are other similar mods uploaded here on Biowares own mod section that so far never been removed, but I can always ask  here myself for a more "public" statement. I have already stated that I will happily remove it if Bioware wants me to.
That will have to wait until tomorrow though (it's 01.11 AM here), unless any staff reading this here feels like confirming it or disregard it as lies.

[The Hierophant]

Emzamination wrote...

That's my point, if the developer didn't pen it, it didn't happen like fan fiction.You shouldn't make your own adventures.

Nope, generally mods can used to patch up glitches, bugs and any other issue the devs didn't notice or fix, do to either time constraints , laziness etc.
I do wonder what your agenda is in vilifying the overall modding community, have you ever used  a mod before?