127 réponses à ce sujet

[PhillyB]

Emzamination wrote...

Bioware released the toolset for DA:O to allow users to create and share their own 'personal' content and style for their wardens but that wasn't enough, they started replicating things like the blood dragon armor and king cailans armor from return to ostagar stalling bioware sales so now it is no more and they have only themselves to blame.My point is modders shouldn't be given tools to bootleg any form of bioware content that's turning a profit.

Perhaps there is a solution. Here's a thought, how about not nickel and diming your consumers with weapon packs and instead create quality content.

Emzamination wrote...

How is a modding community helping sales? If people are downloading
content for free, why would they bother paying for it? It's destroying
sales.

Yeah, err, yeah...

[nightscrawl]

Emzamination wrote...

That's my point, if the developer didn't pen it, it didn't happen like fan fiction. You shouldn't make your own adventures.

That was the whole point of the NWN Aurora Toolset though. NWN was basically Dungeons and Dragons, using those pre-defined rules for character building and combat, set in the DnD Forgotten Realms campaign setting. The NWN devs used their own toolset to design the game, so they were basically the dungeon masters of the official campaign story. The toolset allowed you do be the DM of your own game, write your own story, have it exist in a virtual world that other players can load into on servers or download as a single-player experience. The official NWN campaign was just the jumping off point.

Since Forgotten Realms belongs to someone else, Bioware was somewhat limited in what they could do story wise. In that way, it is significantly different from Dragon Age where they built their own intellectual property from the ground up.

[Dintonta]

Emzamination wrote...
No matter how sub-standard you think the dlc may be, if given the chance modders will duplicate dlc wep/armor models not for appreciation of the models but to stick it to bioware that they don't have to pay.The money from those sales go to fund future projects and other dlc.Nothing in this industry gets done without money and bioware needs alot of it to keep delivering HQ titles and content.Anyone who downloads replica mods is no different than those pirates torrenting games for free.When we try to bypass the system, we only end up hurting ourselves in the end.

You know... I can only speak for myself, but the main reason why I didn't acquired DA2 was precisely because it had no toolset...
...On the other hand, DA:O Toolset didn't prevent me to buy all its dlc.
I like to think that the toolset is part of the game (if not the game itself like for NWN).
And, considering my own example, I'm really not sure that a toolset hinders the sells of a game's dlc (of course it would be interresting to have the opinion of BW themselves about that).

[MDarwin]

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

That's my point, if the developer didn't pen it, it didn't happen like fan fiction.You shouldn't make your own adventures.

Nope, generally mods can used to patch up glitches, bugs and any other issue the devs didn't notice or fix, do to either time constraints , laziness etc.
I do wonder what your agenda is in vilifying the overall modding community, have you ever used  a mod before?

That's one BIG benefit of having an ts!   Maybe Emzamination does not know how to use a ts or a mod?

[SunTzuz]

I don't want free custom items; I am happy to buy each one separately as they are released.
I don't want free custom appearance packs; I am happy to buy them.
I don't want free custom companions; I am happy to buy them as the day one dlc
I don't want free custom persistent world servers; I am happy with just tacked on coop
I don't want free 2k,4k,8k or higher custom textures; I am happy with the way it looks
I don't want free mods Steam workshop or Nexus; I am happy with the selection of dlc.
I don't want free gameplay changes; I am happy at how steam-lined it is.
I don't want the next DA to last many years; I am happy to play it and forget it.

*end sarcasm*

Modifié par SunTzuz, 03 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[Wrathion]

 You take away modding, I will cry sparkly shoujo tears. 

You know what's annoying?

This is annoying.
Two vanilla armors. One a SUPERSPESHUL class-specfic armor that Bioware threw in our faces every second, the other a nice mage robe with good stats. They released the game like this.



This is Bioware's fault.
A problem that they could have easily avoided, but didn't.
A problem they could have easily fixed but didn't.
Guess who fixed it.

Modders. 


<3ModderAppreciation4lyfe<3

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 03 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[Mello]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

 You take away modding, I will cry sparkly shoujo tears. 

You know what's annoying?

This is annoying.
Two vanilla armors. One a SUPERSPESHUL class-specfic armor that Bioware threw in our faces every second, the other a nice mage robe with good stats. They released the game like this.



This is Bioware's fault.
A problem that they could have easily avoided, but didn't.
A problem they could have easily fixed but didn't.
Guess who fixed it.

Modders. 


<3ModderAppreciation4lyfe<3

May the Modders live on! 

[Melca36]

Emzamination wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, IMHO I don't believe the toolset should've been implemented much less reimplemented in the first place.Modders should not be allowed to piggy back off Bioware's work and bootleg Dlc.

What. If anything it shows that Bioware's current dlc is substandard if users can create mods that somehow threaten their dlc sales. Dawnguard was popular for Skyrim despite the plethora of available mods.

No matter how sub-standard you think the dlc may be, if given the chance modders will duplicate dlc wep/armor models not for appreciation of the models but to stick it to bioware that they don't have to pay.The money from those sales go to fund future projects and other dlc.Nothing in this industry gets done without money and bioware needs alot of it to keep delivering HQ titles and content.Anyone who downloads replica mods is no different than those pirates torrenting games for free.When we try to bypass the system, we only end up hurting ourselves in the end.

Um. You are either anti PC and Pro Console or you have no understanding of what mods. People have been modding games for years.     Its not something new.

You sound like a paid shil <_<

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

How is a modding community helping sales? If people are downloading
content for free, why would they bother paying for it? It's destroying
sales.

They can fix bugs, create custom content, and do all manner of other things that will increase sales, as people will buy the game in order to get access to these features.

Additionally, having access to a toolset allows people -- like myself -- the option to create their own mods which may get them noticed by a video game company, if we lack the money to take a course on a certain task inherent within the industry. Indeed, sometimes the classes are just a waste of time, money, and effort.

As I understand it, some game developers -- writers, programmers, etc. -- started off as modders. They then got noticed by some company or studio or whatever.

Finally, I believe it's illegal to recreate the entire contents of a DLC and make it free to download as a mod, as that's not only infringing on the original work that's created by the devs themselves but hurts their sales for that DLC. And this is in relation to DLC only, not in regards to anything the toolset can do.

Now, if you were to alter some aspects of a DLC but you weren't recreating it -- say maybe a few map tweaks or placing Person A over in Spot 3 -- that's different. That seems to be fine.

The toolsets are released so that modders can create custom content that isn't content the devs have already created, or to fix other issues in the game.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 06:03 .

[The Hierophant]

MDarwin wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

That's my point, if the developer didn't pen it, it didn't happen like fan fiction.You shouldn't make your own adventures.

Nope, generally mods can used to patch up glitches, bugs and any other issue the devs didn't notice or fix, do to either time constraints , laziness etc.
I do wonder what your agenda is in vilifying the overall modding community, have you ever used  a mod before?

That's one BIG benefit of having an ts!   Maybe Emzamination does not know how to use a ts or a mod?

Heck, Alexandrine's post is a perfect example of why a ts is needed...lol at the mix & match skin tones though.

[Merlex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

How is a modding community helping sales? If people are downloading
content for free, why would they bother paying for it? It's destroying
sales.

They can fix bugs, create custom content, and do all manner of other things that will increase sales, as people will buy the game in order to get access to these features.

Additionally, having access to a toolset allows people -- like myself -- the option to create their own mods which may get them noticed by a video game company, if we lack the money to take a course on a certain task inherent within the industry. Indeed, sometimes the classes are just a waste of time, money, and effort.

As I understand it, some game developers -- writers, programmers, etc. -- started off as modders. They then got noticed by some company or studio or whatever.

TonyK's AI comes to mine. It was even used in a Neverwinter expansion by the company, if my memory is correct.

Modifié par Merlex, 04 août 2012 - 12:29 .

[Will Moor]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Finally, I believe it's illegal to recreate the entire contents of a DLC and make it free to download as a mod, as that's not only infringing on the original work that's created by the devs themselves but hurts their sales for that DLC. And this is in relation to DLC only, not in regards to anything the toolset can do.

You would be correct.  And whoever said that mods HURT sales does not know at all what they are talking about.  Through Morrowind, Oblivion and Dragon Age Origins, Fallout 3 and Fallout NV to Skyrim, modding has not hurt the sales of these games and reproducing paid content for free has always been forbidden and honestly it doesn't happen thet often.  The few times it has been done, something was always done right away.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

#2. Putting out professional-quality work will always have a market, even if there are good amateurs out there. Valve sells hats and other items via microtransactions in Team Fortress 2. They also released hat creator tools for players as well. Valve's hats are still considerably higher quality than the player-created ones. Their sales have not suffered. Bethesda does the same - they put out a creation kit with the last few Elder Scrolls games, and they still sell paid DLC. 

As someone who plays Team Fortress 2 I can't tell the difference between user-created content that gets sold at the shop and Valve's own work. 

hoorayforicecream wrote...
A lot of people have brought up the 'competition' angle, but honestly... if there were that many modders who could make professional quality work that releases on a similar schedule, they'd probably already be working for game companies full time.

 

Bull****. They may have other jobs, or are already working on game development for other companies and make mods in their free time. It's amusing that you seem to think modders are automatically not qualified for a job in game development because they release free stuff. It doesn't even make sense.

Some of the most popular games started out as mods or indie projects. Just look at DayZ, Dear Esther, Dota, or Counter-Strike. Meanwhile we get plenty of people working in the industry that shouldn't have any business working in the industry in the first place.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You're misunderstanding. She didn't say "has the game," she said "has the game installed." If I've uninstalled DAII, I'm less likely to buy its DLC. If there's a toolset and other players are continuously generating custom content, that's more reason for me to keep the game on my hard disc until BioWare release official content.

Exactly.

I've uninstalled DA2 now, so I'm extremely unlikely to acquire anything new for it, but when I did have it installed I bought Legacy.

But that wouldn't have happened without the Diversified Follower Armours mod.  Forced to endure iconic appearances, I likely would have uninstalled the game sooner and not bought Legacy.

That's a valid point, but considering that over 90% of Dragon Age 2's DLC are items and item packs, I wouldn't be surprised if BW thought no mod tools is a good opportunity to drive up sales.

[Eternal Phoenix]

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

 You take away modding, I will cry sparkly shoujo tears. 

You know what's annoying?

This is annoying.
Two vanilla armors. One a SUPERSPESHUL class-specfic armor that Bioware threw in our faces every second, the other a nice mage robe with good stats. They released the game like this.



This is Bioware's fault.
A problem that they could have easily avoided, but didn't.
A problem they could have easily fixed but didn't.
Guess who fixed it.

Modders. 


<3ModderAppreciation4lyfe<3

May the Modders live on! 

Black face and white hands?

LOL

Bioware...

[Lemina Ausa]

*Points at dota and all the games that spawned off it* That was a player made custom map for warcraft 3 that spawned an entire genre.

Modding can create entirely new genres from the work of fans alone, who are often driven by a desire to actually improve the game they're modding on, instead of squeezing every penny out of the game like what game developers do. I would definitely like to have a toolset, and the modding work done by fans can be of superior quality to official stuff.

Modders are great!!

[KDD-0063]

Regardless of the reasons, the lack of mods decreases the replay-ability of a game.
DA2 is just one evidence, though not a strong one because it has a low replay-ability on its own.

On the other hand, NWN2 is a stronger example. It, imo, has a better main campaign than the first one, but because the toolset is so complicated, there's a lack of quality modules compared to NWN1, NWN1 stayed in my hard drive indefinitely while NWN2 stayed for only a few months.

I'd much rather believe that the lack of toolset is due to PC being a relatively unimportant platform in EA's book as its sales are lower than consoles'.
So chances are, we are in for a long wait until people can port mods from PC to consoles.

Denying toolset just to sell item mods ... honestly, that is quite absurd, and short sighted as well.

[Realmzmaster]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Regardless of the reasons, the lack of mods decreases the replay-ability of a game.
DA2 is just one evidence, though not a strong one because it has a low replay-ability on its own.

On the other hand, NWN2 is a stronger example. It, imo, has a better main campaign than the first one, but because the toolset is so complicated, there's a lack of quality modules compared to NWN1, NWN1 stayed in my hard drive indefinitely while NWN2 stayed for only a few months.

I'd much rather believe that the lack of toolset is due to PC being a relatively unimportant platform in EA's book as its sales are lower than consoles'.
So chances are, we are in for a long wait until people can port mods from PC to consoles.

Denying toolset just to sell item mods ... honestly, that is quite absurd, and short sighted as well.

NWN2 was done by Obsidan not Bioware. The blame for that toolkit rests on their shoulders. The toolset for NWN1 was done by Bioware.

A lot of gamers on this forum keep talking like EA and Bioware are separate companies. They are not. Bioware is a division of EA. Just like Mercury use to be a division of Ford Motor Company. The good doctors who founded Bioware are now officials ( One has since departed for other pursuits). 

If the bosses lay out what you are going to do you have one of two choices: Do what you are told or quit. Brent Knowles decided to leave. Mike Laidlaw step in and was told the timeline which the good doctors had agreed. Mike Laidlaw and team now have to knock the game out in the time given. This means that they used third party software to modify their engine to meet the deadline. This also means that the toolset cannot be released without stripping out the third party software thereby probably making it useless or paying royalities to the third party companies for each copy of the software sold.

If more time was given we might have seen a proper toolset because time could have been given to find work arounds for the third party software. maybe not. It depends on how integral that software was to the toolset. When the software being used is wholly your you can release as you wish.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 20 août 2012 - 10:26 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I would hope by now the third party software vendor issues are over.

I don't think many would have a problem if Bioware charged for a modding tool, as long as they have it, honestly. There are so very talented, very dedicated modders out there that I'm sure wouldn't mind shelling out the price of a standard DLC. A free mod kit would be the best, but hey... I'm sure people will take what they can get.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would hope by now the third party software vendor issues are over.

I don't think many would have a problem if Bioware charged for a modding tool, as long as they have it, honestly. There are so very talented, very dedicated modders out there that I'm sure wouldn't mind shelling out the price of a standard DLC. A free mod kit would be the best, but hey... I'm sure people will take what they can get.

The issues are not over if they are still using the same modified engine unless they found a way to remove the third party software. I sure some modders and would be modders would have no problem paying for a toolset if it came priced like dlc say $5 or $7 maybe $10.

We will see with DA3 if these issues have been resolved.

[tklivory]

Ya know, I've never even used the Blood Dragon Armor for DA:O. I love RtO for its amplification of the overall story, but never wore King Cailan's armor. It never even crossed my mind to evaluate a DLC based on the items included with it since my first and only thought was: does the story in this DLC sound interesting?

Yet I couldn't get past the first twenty minutes of DA2 without quitting and heading over to a mod site because of the horrible limitations of the CC at the opening of the game. I *might* buy Legacy, the Exiled Prince or MotA DLCs, but honestly, that depends a great deal on how I feel after finishing DA2. Buy more items for it? Ummm... no. Sell me a DLC that improves my enjoyment of the game - like extra environments, a reductive masectomy add-in, or extra story (like the DLC I listed) - and I will give you my money like I did for DA:O (twice, in fact). Just don't sell me prettier bytes and pixels and nothing more and expect me to enjoy it.

But first, and most important, sell me a game I enjoy playing. Period.

Modifié par tklivory, 20 août 2012 - 11:10 .

[Realmzmaster]

tklivory wrote...

Ya know, I've never even used the Blood Dragon Armor for DA:O. I love RtO for its amplification of the overall story, but never wore King Cailan's armor. It never even crossed my mind to evaluate a DLC based on the items included with it since my first and only thought was: does the story in this DLC sound interesting?

Yet I couldn't get past the first twenty minutes of DA2 without quitting and heading over to a mod site because of the horrible limitations of the CC at the opening of the game. I *might* buy Legacy, the Exiled Prince or MotA DLCs, but honestly, that depends a great deal on how I feel after finishing DA2. Buy more items for it? Ummm... no. Sell me a DLC that improves my enjoyment of the game - like extra environments, a reductive masectomy add-in, or extra story (like the DLC I listed) - and I will give you my money like I did for DA:O (twice, in fact). Just don't sell me prettier bytes and pixels and nothing more and expect me to enjoy it.

But first, and most important, sell me a game I enjoy playing. Period.

But there lies the problem a game you like playing may not be the one I like playing. In my opinion I could care less about the CC. I remember when all you could do was pick a portrait from a group pf portraits or import a portrait. That was it . So while improving the CC may be an issue for you it is not for me. I rather the money be used for something else maybe a toolset.

[Parmida]

Mods are awesome, I loved DA:O's and NWN2 mods.
I don't understand why some of you are trying to shut the mods off, it's optional you can choose not to use them if they bother you.
I play skyrim and my game is full of mods and the Dawnguard DLC too and it has turned into one hell of a crazy game that drowns me in itself for all the fun stuff I can do.
I was really sad that found out that DA2 and ME don't have ToolSets.

[Will Moor]

I have been modding the heck out of my games since Baldur's Gate. Love mods.

[Gibb_Shepard]

I'm pretty sure Bioware have some weird attachment to their "untouched" games. From the things i've heard them say, they have more of a problem with the fact that we're messing with their artistic integrity, rather than the difficulty of releasing the toolset.