40 réponses à ce sujet

[Cynnita]

I started the game as a female character but when I saw that I could not romance Morrigan, I started the game over as a male character. I fell in love with her over the course of the game, only romanced her, killed her mother with no questions asked, accepted her offer and was completely heartbroken that she left me at the end of the game as I was hoping her love would be her back to me.

But, after thinking about everything she said and how it all transpired, I do believe she was in love with my character but had to follow her orginal plans for whatever reasons that might have transpired before she met him and/or not know to the players of the game yet. Only having Flemmeth in her life growing up and never having the loving mother that most  of us have, she was probably never told that she was loved and did not get affection, so love to her is strange and uncomfortable. She did not plan on having feelings for him and that just rocked her world. She refused to have sex at a certain point as it made it worse for her to do what she had to do at the end. So, she pushes him away. I, myself, have met people like this in real life. 

So, in conclusion, I do not feel that Morrigan is an "evil" character (just bad people skills) and I do believe she was deeply scarred for having to make the decision to leave her lover behind to raise this child. She was just taught by her mother to be selfish and look out for number one.
She loved him so much, that she did not want to take a chance that he might die so she also found comfort in her decision to give him the "way out" in addition to her orginal plans to save the ancient God.

For myself, I do not see how Morrigan can be in the sequel, if there is one, due to the epilogue stating that she was never seen again and had feelings of regret and sorrow. I hope that I am wrong and somehow Bioware changes the future with the sequel through magic or whatever. The future can always be changed unlike the past. I hate to think she had an unloved childhoood as well as an unloved adulthood other than her child.

[Skellimancer]

Cool story, Bro.

[th3warr1or]

+1

[Cynnita]

Thank you.

Had a few typing errors but got the just of it down.

[IGoosI]

"was completely heartbroken that she left me at the end of the game" Yeah I think it's safe to say that was the writers idea and made a nice change to see a sort of not so happy ending on a romance front instead of the guy gets the girl kind of thing. The best games are the ones that move you.

Morrigans character was one of the most interesting characters (if not THE most interesting) She was the one that obviously had changes going on under the surface over the duration of the game (bit too obvious at times). Through the whoal story she is selfish, uncaring and at times rather evil in her approvals/dissaprovals but getting closer to her you can see that cold heart starting to melt so to speak and it made for a more deeper character. Shame her approval preference didn't change with her would have made my job more easy lol. However there is something people miss quite easily she makes it clear she is very good at batting her eyelids and manipulating and for all we know the whoal thing could be an act. Food for thought



To be honest though this game seemed to come to a close as if there will be no sequal with everyone going their own ways etc but I hope this is not the case. Dragon age is something that is worthy of sequals (as long as they are done right of course)

[Happykola]

IGoosI wrote...

"was completely heartbroken that she left me at the end of the game" Yeah I think it's safe to say that was the writers idea and made a nice change to see a sort of not so happy ending on a romance front instead of the guy gets the girl kind of thing. The best games are the ones that move you.
Morrigans character was one of the most interesting characters (if not THE most interesting) She was the one that obviously had changes going on under the surface over the duration of the game (bit too obvious at times). Through the whoal story she is selfish, uncaring and at times rather evil in her approvals/dissaprovals but getting closer to her you can see that cold heart starting to melt so to speak and it made for a more deeper character. Shame her approval preference didn't change with her would have made my job more easy lol. However there is something people miss quite easily she makes it clear she is very good at batting her eyelids and manipulating and for all we know the whoal thing could be an act. Food for thought

To be honest though this game seemed to come to a close as if there will be no sequal with everyone going their own ways etc but I hope this is not the case. Dragon age is something that is worthy of sequals (as long as they are done right of course)

i hadn't really thought of that but it's true you can never be 100% sure with morrigan, still if she was manipulating you the whole way you didn't get played that badly you had fun and enjoyed her company and in the end she saved your life, after a fashion.
To be honest i think it's very unlikely that she was pretending the entire time, there's a big difference between batting your eyelids at the local magistrate and fabricating an involved and loving relationship and as coldly pragmatic as she is i think there was atleast some deeper affection there, in the end she just couldn't go against her nature which was to look out for number 1.

[Cynnita]

This game definitely brought out emotions in me. I have never really had that happen while playing a game. The writers really triggered so of my own issues and made me think for myself what choices I would make. I laughed (especially at the talking between different characters behind me as I went throughout the game (which is why I would suggest not always taking the same party out with you), I got pissed at the game several times, I took moments to really think about which option I wanted to choose instead of just selecting one to move on, I actually cried a bit at the end as I felt sad.

This game is more true to life than people realize, I think.

It touched me and I am ready to play again with different approaches.

I would save my game and then do different things, here and there, to see if it made a difference and then went back and uploaded the choice I really wanted and some things, choices, and dialogue did change. For example, for a short time, I had sex with both Morrigan and Lelina (spelling?). Then, when the two of them were walking behind me, Morrigan said some things to Lelina that showed me that she did in fact, actually have feelings for my character. But, then I went back and uploaded before having sex with Lelina as I wanted the approach of only having Morrigan as my lover.

Even the fact that there are romances, sex, and gay characters is worth "Game of the Year' for my vote.

[sombrus]

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.



She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.



I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.





So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.



And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.



****ing liberals.

[Cynnita]

Now, I am going to play the game again as a male character with kissing (romance) Morrigan but never have sex with her (or anyone else for that matter) by always chosing option "we are not alone" and see what dialgoue comes up here and there. Should be interesting.

Also, I am going to start out a bit meaner than I was before in the beggining and work my way up to be more courageous and nicer towards the end.

I do believe there are a wide variety of combinations with the choices you choose to make different triggers in the gaming program to change. If not, I will still have a blast playing the game!

[Cynnita]

sombrus wrote...

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.

She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.


So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.

And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.

****ing liberals.

I just had a different view of it as I ,personally, saw her emotional advancement during the game play as she was my main companion focus. Maybe you played the game differently than me and got different dialogue or choices.
That, again, is the beauty of the game.
I appreciate your feedback but your quote at the bottom is childish and , according to you, exactly what Morrigan would say. So you are doing exactly what you said you did not like about her.

[JaylaClark]

This game got my emotions going, too.  At least when I wasn't worrying if I was playing it right.  But from when my human noble warrior Shena Cousland told her parents, "I love you both so much," and I got a lump in my throat, to when Leliana asked her if there was room for one more on her journeys and I selected 'Only if it's you' -- this game actually made me FEEL for the characters.  Except Shale, but blame that on my super-set-in-(ironically)-stone main party that I got too used to fighting with -- I didn't have to speak with the golem properly except for the first time I met Shale, so I didn't learn much of anything about him.

I still wish Morrigan was a) romanceable for female characters (though this could just be the developers making it clear, in Ferelden social mores don't dictate sexuality, only biology, thus only two people are bisexual in the party for sure); and able to be 'softened' just like you can 'harden' Leli and Alistair.  I mean, from what I know of the plot, Morrigan has to do her own thing for whatever reason, at least if one chooses to go with her plan, but it'd be nice if she wasn't such an anti-heroine for the duration of the game.  I mean, for frak's sake, why I can't convince her that solving other peoples' problems can at least be beneficial from a selfish standpoint, I'll never know.  But truth be told, maybe that's just how she is deep down, and maybe I shouldn't try to change it.

[Gnoster]

In my opinion Morrigan could make for a great sequal to the game ...that is if one takes the offer at the end. During her reasoning she informs the PC that a child from a Grey Warden parent combined with the essence of the archdemon would have Godlike powers (or something along those lines).

My thought at that moment was: First I get Morrigan her mother's book on how to take over over people's bodies in order to live forever, and now she wants a child with Godlike powers. This means she will take over that child's body as soon as possible and become a force to be reckoned with - evil or good, who knows :-).

[sombrus]

Cynnita wrote...

sombrus wrote...

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.

She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.


So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.

And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.

****ing liberals.

I just had a different view of it as I ,personally, saw her emotional advancement during the game play as she was my main companion focus. Maybe you played the game differently than me and got different dialogue or choices.
That, again, is the beauty of the game.
I appreciate your feedback but your quote at the bottom is childish and , according to you, exactly what Morrigan would say. So you are doing exactly what you said you did not like about her.

She didn't have "emotional advancement". Evil people can still love and get attached. At the end of the game, the question is was she willing to risk the entire world for her own advancement... and the answer is yes... she is. If that's not evil... risking another Blight... I don't know what is.

And the bottom comment was very apropos.

A gay woman telling us all how terribly misunderstood a woman that emotionally brutalizes and uses men and plans on killing her child is. I mean the whole Flemeth aspect of the storyline was a feminist masturbation fest. In fact, every Patriarch in the game is either an idiot, a villain, dies, or and and all of the above. Duncan bites it, Cailan's an idiot, Loghain's a monster, Howe's a monster, and those that aren't idiots, dead, or monsters all need rescuing like a damsal in distress.


This even follows in camp... Alistair's a dolt, Oghren's a drunk, and Zevran plots to kill you... the only one who isn't like this is Sten... and if you take a good look at the trailer, Sten is like every other black guy in popular media, super strong and super huge and hyper masculine.


Feh.

[Fishy]

Gnoster wrote...

In my opinion Morrigan could make for a great sequal to the game ...that is if one takes the offer at the end. During her reasoning she informs the PC that a child from a Grey Warden parent combined with the essence of the archdemon would have Godlike powers (or something along those lines).
My thought at that moment was: First I get Morrigan her mother's book on how to take over over people's bodies in order to live forever, and now she wants a child with Godlike powers. This means she will take over that child's body as soon as possible and become a force to be reckoned with - evil or good, who knows :-).

It's was her and Flemeth plan from the beginning.But after reading flemeth biography inside the book she understood the reason of it.

and no .. If i need to take the offer of Morrigan to play the sequel .. That would be an horrible sequel
Whatever you said.She still drop you at the end like a pair of used underwear for her own pursuit of power.
She's not even willing to tell the only man she ever loved what she will do with the baby .(It's clear from that point  it's for evil intention)
Hell she's even willing to make it with Allistair.During one of the conversation with Leliana...It's clear that she don't have any sexual attirance for him lol .. yet she's willing to be humped by him .

Plus when she fall in love with the pc and tell you about it..It's gave me the creep.It's was like she just got some kind of horrible virus and if she could find the vaccination she would use it.

[Cynnita]

JaylaClark wrote...

This game got my emotions going, too.  At least when I wasn't worrying if I was playing it right.  But from when my human noble warrior Shena Cousland told her parents, "I love you both so much," and I got a lump in my throat, to when Leliana asked her if there was room for one more on her journeys and I selected 'Only if it's you' -- this game actually made me FEEL for the characters.  Except Shale, but blame that on my super-set-in-(ironically)-stone main party that I got too used to fighting with -- I didn't have to speak with the golem properly except for the first time I met Shale, so I didn't learn much of anything about him.

I still wish Morrigan was a) romanceable for female characters (though this could just be the developers making it clear, in Ferelden social mores don't dictate sexuality, only biology, thus only two people are bisexual in the party for sure); and able to be 'softened' just like you can 'harden' Leli and Alistair.  I mean, from what I know of the plot, Morrigan has to do her own thing for whatever reason, at least if one chooses to go with her plan, but it'd be nice if she wasn't such an anti-heroine for the duration of the game.  I mean, for frak's sake, why I can't convince her that solving other peoples' problems can at least be beneficial from a selfish standpoint, I'll never know.  But truth be told, maybe that's just how she is deep down, and maybe I shouldn't try to change it.

Shale is a character, like Morrigan, that develops over the course of the game if you take the time to talk to him in camp and he actually, says some really funny stuff. He starts out cold as he has been mistreated by humans since becoming a Golem. Going on Shale's personal quest to find out where he came from gives you a great deal of approval from him. He is, in my opinion, a great character, unlike Sten who really never develops much no matter how much you talk to him.
Also, as to your comment about a female female character romancing Morrigan, I agree. But, I think the story must go with her offering a male companion to live in exchange for her conception is neccesary for game to end the way it does.
She is just so interesting, complex, and sexy so I would have loved to have a gay relationship with her. But, as they say, that is how the story goes....literally.

[FlintlockJazz]

Suprez30 wrote...

She's not even willing to tell the only man she ever loved what she will do with the baby .(It's clear from that point  it's for evil intention)

While it's not necessarily for evil, her expecting the character to have a child and not be involved does raise serious questions.  Sure it's hip these days to believe that all men if given the opportunity would avoid having to deal with their offspring and leg it but actually if I was to have a kid I'd damn well expect to at least be given a reason why I couldn't be involved with my spawn, even if it wasn't a good one and still resulted in me hacking my way in to get to the kid. 

I'm still annoyed that if you turn down her offer you don't get to kill her, after all my first runthrough my character turned her down and was opposed to the whole idea, and considering that my character knew that she was willing to bang Loghain and he wanted to protect his country (took the king route), he would not risk letting her go off and try and get a sprog elsewhere that could grow up and be a threat, he would kill her there and then.  She was a threat, and needed to be dealt with.

[Happykola]

sombrus wrote...

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.

She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.


So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.

And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.

****ing liberals.

It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions
no one is claiming she's an example of moral virtue but it is demonstrably true that the moral systems of parents tend to be handed down to their children, this would be especially pronounced in a case like morrigan's where flemeth was the only teacher she had ever had about anything.

risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result
in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be
tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight
risk the entire world? how so? insane? if anything her decision is as calculated as they come, as for the claim that morrigans child would bring about another blight that s frankly absurd given the fact that morrigan will be able to indoctrinate the child as completely as flemeth indoctrinated her  and her obvious opposition to the darkspawn that is so unlikely as to be dismissable. Whether she will use the child as a weapon for her personal gain however is certainly forseeable, again no one is saying she's a moral righteous person or that what she does is right, what we are saying are that 1 she is not evil she is merely self-interested and 2 she is capable of feeling and probably does feel a fairly strong emotional bond with the pc.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire
campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever
loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling
companions.
i don't remember her pushing cruelty and viciousness, expediency in pursuing the campaign's goals perhaps but also mercy and compassion. as for scorn she makes fun of allistair but anyone with any understanding of human interaction can see that both of them enjoy the banter to some extent as for wynne that came about because wynne expressed dissapproval of her and the pcs relationship which would ****** off any free minded woman.

emotional blackmail for the one she loves
emotional blackmail? she offered him a chance to save his own life

death for her mother
who planned to murder her and had allready murdered all of her sisters

and risking the entire world
i fail to see how she risks the entire world

provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.
i don't think it's ever suggested that she'd murder the child, certainly power is something she desires perhaps above all else, but there is no necessary logical connection between being powerfull and being evil.

[Cynnita]

sombrus wrote...

Cynnita wrote...

sombrus wrote...

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.

She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.


So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.

And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.

****ing liberals.

I just had a different view of it as I ,personally, saw her emotional advancement during the game play as she was my main companion focus. Maybe you played the game differently than me and got different dialogue or choices.
That, again, is the beauty of the game.
I appreciate your feedback but your quote at the bottom is childish and , according to you, exactly what Morrigan would say. So you are doing exactly what you said you did not like about her.

She didn't have "emotional advancement". Evil people can still love and get attached. At the end of the game, the question is was she willing to risk the entire world for her own advancement... and the answer is yes... she is. If that's not evil... risking another Blight... I don't know what is.

And the bottom comment was very apropos.

A gay woman telling us all how terribly misunderstood a woman that emotionally brutalizes and uses men and plans on killing her child is. I mean the whole Flemeth aspect of the storyline was a feminist masturbation fest. In fact, every Patriarch in the game is either an idiot, a villain, dies, or and and all of the above. Duncan bites it, Cailan's an idiot, Loghain's a monster, Howe's a monster, and those that aren't idiots, dead, or monsters all need rescuing like a damsal in distress.


This even follows in camp... Alistair's a dolt, Oghren's a drunk, and Zevran plots to kill you... the only one who isn't like this is Sten... and if you take a good look at the trailer, Sten is like every other black guy in popular media, super strong and super huge and hyper masculine.


Feh.

I understand where your view is coming from. I do think that the game triggers our own experiences and lessons. So, since we are all different in our personalities and life experiences, we all see the game in our own special way.
I have very different views on these people than you do as I look at them differently. Does not mean that you are wrong or I am wrong, just perception. I see Alistailr's past made him a "whimp" as he did not really have much of a father figure, Oghren's wife left him for another woman so I would imagine that is why he drinks so much as it damaged him, and Zevran was taken at a young age and taught to survive-you kill, and Sten's people are born warriors and do not have much emotion in order to be great warriors without feelings of regret and mercy.
So, again, parents, childhhood, society, and life experiences make us all who we are and I feel this is reflected in the game. I see a deeper underlining, between the lines if you will, look at these characters.

[FlintlockJazz]

Cynnita wrote...

I understand where your view is coming from. I do think that the game triggers our own experiences and lessons. So, since we are all different in our personalities and life experiences, we all see the game in our own special way.
I have very different views on these people than you do as I look at them differently. Does not mean that you are wrong or I am wrong, just perception. I see Alistailr's past made him a "whimp" as he did not really have much of a father figure, Oghren's wife left him for another woman so I would imagine that is why he drinks so much as it damaged him, and Zevran was taken at a young age and taught to survive-you kill, and Sten's people are born warriors and do not have much emotion in order to be great warriors without feelings of regret and mercy.
So, again, parents, childhhood, society, and life experiences make us all who we are and I feel this is reflected in the game. I see a deeper underlining, between the lines if you will, look at these characters.

I think the point he was trying to make is that despite our upbringing we must eventually take responsibility for our own actions.  Some people brought up by horrible parents turn out horrible, yet others turn out completely differently, and really is Morrigan's upbringing really that bad compared to the upbringing of other characters in the game?  Hell, you could argue that she had an awesome upbringing compared to being constantly watched and threatened and rounded up like the CIrcle Mages (which she would have become if not for her mother), she has admitted to having visited human towns before and yet expects others to conform to her ways, showing a sense of entitlement due to her powers that she was born with, not earnt.

And how do we know that Morrigan's mother was really that bad?  Because Morrigan tells us so?  I think it's clear that we cannot trust what she says to be true all the time, if ever, and their relationship didn't seem to be that bad when you see them together, many families enjoy snarking each other for fun.  If Morrigan took that as abuse then she's a bigger wimp than Al!

[Cynnita]

Happykola wrote...

sombrus wrote...

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.

She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.


So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.

And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.

****ing liberals.

It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions
no one is claiming she's an example of moral virtue but it is demonstrably true that the moral systems of parents tend to be handed down to their children, this would be especially pronounced in a case like morrigan's where flemeth was the only teacher she had ever had about anything.

risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result
in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be
tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight
risk the entire world? how so? insane? if anything her decision is as calculated as they come, as for the claim that morrigans child would bring about another blight that s frankly absurd given the fact that morrigan will be able to indoctrinate the child as completely as flemeth indoctrinated her  and her obvious opposition to the darkspawn that is so unlikely as to be dismissable. Whether she will use the child as a weapon for her personal gain however is certainly forseeable, again no one is saying she's a moral righteous person or that what she does is right, what we are saying are that 1 she is not evil she is merely self-interested and 2 she is capable of feeling and probably does feel a fairly strong emotional bond with the pc.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire
campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever
loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling
companions.
i don't remember her pushing cruelty and viciousness, expediency in pursuing the campaign's goals perhaps but also mercy and compassion. as for scorn she makes fun of allistair but anyone with any understanding of human interaction can see that both of them enjoy the banter to some extent as for wynne that came about because wynne expressed dissapproval of her and the pcs relationship which would ****** off any free minded woman.

emotional blackmail for the one she loves
emotional blackmail? she offered him a chance to save his own life

death for her mother
who planned to murder her and had allready murdered all of her sisters

and risking the entire world
i fail to see how she risks the entire world

provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.
i don't think it's ever suggested that she'd murder the child, certainly power is something she desires perhaps above all else, but there is no necessary logical connection between being powerfull and being evil.

Well put!

[Ivhon]

Cynnita wrote...

sombrus wrote...

Cynnita wrote...

sombrus wrote...

Go ahead, blame the parents. It's not like she's an adult making her own decisions... the decision to risk the entire world in an insane gamble for power that might result in the creation of a living god via child that may or may not be tainted with the darkness to bring about another blight. That's if things go wrong, if things go right she'll likely attempt to do unto her child that which Flemeth planned to do to her... killing off her kid. Yeah, murdering her child is the "good outcome" to this scenario.

She's not Evil, she's just misunderstood.

I mean it's not like she didn't push cruelty and viciousness the entire campaign...or attempt to emotionally blackmail the only man she's ever loved.... or scorn and sneer at virtually all of her traveling companions.


So, let's see the checklist here... cruelty and viciousness to strangers, outright visible contempt for those she knows, and emotional blackmail for the one she loves, death for her mother, and risking the entire world to potentially provide a godlike host body to assuage her desire for power... by murdering her only child.

And she's not evil, she's just misunderstood.

****ing liberals.

I just had a different view of it as I ,personally, saw her emotional advancement during the game play as she was my main companion focus. Maybe you played the game differently than me and got different dialogue or choices.
That, again, is the beauty of the game.
I appreciate your feedback but your quote at the bottom is childish and , according to you, exactly what Morrigan would say. So you are doing exactly what you said you did not like about her.

She didn't have "emotional advancement". Evil people can still love and get attached. At the end of the game, the question is was she willing to risk the entire world for her own advancement... and the answer is yes... she is. If that's not evil... risking another Blight... I don't know what is.

And the bottom comment was very apropos.

A gay woman telling us all how terribly misunderstood a woman that emotionally brutalizes and uses men and plans on killing her child is. I mean the whole Flemeth aspect of the storyline was a feminist masturbation fest. In fact, every Patriarch in the game is either an idiot, a villain, dies, or and and all of the above. Duncan bites it, Cailan's an idiot, Loghain's a monster, Howe's a monster, and those that aren't idiots, dead, or monsters all need rescuing like a damsal in distress.


This even follows in camp... Alistair's a dolt, Oghren's a drunk, and Zevran plots to kill you... the only one who isn't like this is Sten... and if you take a good look at the trailer, Sten is like every other black guy in popular media, super strong and super huge and hyper masculine.


Feh.

I understand where your view is coming from. I do think that the game triggers our own experiences and lessons. So, since we are all different in our personalities and life experiences, we all see the game in our own special way.
I have very different views on these people than you do as I look at them differently. Does not mean that you are wrong or I am wrong, just perception. I see Alistailr's past made him a "whimp" as he did not really have much of a father figure, Oghren's wife left him for another woman so I would imagine that is why he drinks so much as it damaged him, and Zevran was taken at a young age and taught to survive-you kill, and Sten's people are born warriors and do not have much emotion in order to be great warriors without feelings of regret and mercy.
So, again, parents, childhhood, society, and life experiences make us all who we are and I feel this is reflected in the game. I see a deeper underlining, between the lines if you will, look at these characters.

Excellent response!

[sombrus]

*sigh*

How do you put into words that someone is a ****ing idiot without actually calling them a ****ing idiot? I'll try in the fewest words possible.

no one is claiming she's an example of moral virtue but it is demonstrably true that the moral systems of parents tend to be handed down to their children, this would be especially pronounced in a case like morrigan's where flemeth was the only teacher she had ever had about anything.

Alright, so if my dad butchers a family of four it's no big deal if I go and violate my neighbor's six year old daughter... I mean it's a hell of a lot better than murdering her and her family? Because that's what you're certainly pawning off on me here. Because she had a terrible role model (assuming she even was terrible... we have only Morrigan's word here, remember... and Flemeth comes right and says "Morrigan's found someone to dance to her tune") you're telling me that it's not "Evil" to do the things she's done, or plans to do?

Right.

risk the entire world? how so? insane? if anything her decision is as calculated as they come, as for the claim that morrigans child would bring about another blight that s frankly absurd given the fact that morrigan will be able to indoctrinate the child as completely as flemeth indoctrinated her  and her obvious opposition to the darkspawn that is so unlikely as to be dismissable. Whether she will use the child as a weapon for her personal gain however is certainly forseeable, again no one is saying she's a moral righteous person or that what she does is right, what we are saying are that 1 she is not evil she is merely self-interested and 2 she is capable of feeling and probably does feel a fairly strong emotional bond with the pc.

You have a LOT of assumptions there. First, let's at least assume the child will be a god, or at least have god like powers, otherwise this little section is moot. So, Morrigan wants to reinroduce a god into the mortal world rather than let it die. Now, it's clear that said deity can be corrupted and commit horror on an enourmous scale. Morrigan is risking it.

You don't know that she'll be able to "indoctrinate it". It's a ****ing Deity. Really? You think any kind of school marming is going to define the actions of a living god? You want me to buy that?

And this is where we get to "Evil". Because everyone is self interested... it's a question to what degree. How much potential suffering, or suffering, will you cause in the pursuit of that self interest.... and Morrigan is willing to potentiall risk another blight... because if that god is reborn it could potentially become corrupted once more. It might be a thin chance, a small chance... but it's a chance...and she's willing to risk it for her own ends.

It's akin to risking another Holocaust to win the Presidency. But apparently that's just morally ambiguous, right?

i don't remember her pushing cruelty and viciousness, expediency in pursuing the campaign's goals perhaps but also mercy and compassion. as for scorn she makes fun of allistair but anyone with any understanding of human interaction can see that both of them enjoy the banter to some extent as for wynne that came about because wynne expressed dissapproval of her and the pcs relationship which would ****** off any free minded woman.

When she wanted to see every man, woman, and child in the Circle butchered. Like sheep.

When she wanted the people of Lothering suffer under the yoke of the price gouger and snickered at their suffering "How they weep and wail".

And in her constant ridicule of her groupmates, such as Leliana, and Alistair.

emotional blackmail for the one she loves
emotional blackmail? she offered him a chance to save his own life

She offered him a chance to save his life if it meant furthering her ends. She was quite willing to abandon him at the final moment unless he gave in to her wants.

death for her mother
who planned to murder her and had allready murdered all of her sisters

We know this how? Because that's what she told us. We don't KNOW this at all. You and your ****** assumptions.

and risking the entire world
i fail to see how she risks the entire world

Because you're stupid. If she succeeds in this plan at any level it could go disasterously wrong, and not just for her...but everyone else. Rereleasing a deity that has been corrupted in the past back into the world, potentially to be corrupted again is dangerous. Incredibly dangerous. It's putting Stalin back in power to suit your own ends. He might turn into a megalomaniacal tyrant that slaughters his people en masse... and he might not... but do ya really want to risk it?

****ing idiot.

i don't think it's ever suggested that she'd murder the child, certainly power is something she desires perhaps above all else, but there is no necessary logical connection between being powerfull and being evil.

Yes, it's suggested. Let's assume she was being honest when she was talking about Flemeth. It means she now knows how to transfer her consciousness into another host, as Flemeth presumably did to her daughters. She'll have an infant deity that could potentially serve as host to her consciousness... killing the infant in the process. Not it's physical body perhaps, but much as you would be "killed" if we wiped out every aspect of your consciousness and replaced it with someone elses.

But that's morally ambigious too, right?

Typical Liberal...

[Emerald Rift]

Cynnita wrote...
For myself, I do not see how Morrigan can be in the sequel, if there is one, due to the epilogue stating that she was never seen again and had feelings of regret and sorrow. I hope that I am wrong and somehow Bioware changes the future with the sequel through magic or whatever. The future can always be changed unlike the past. I hate to think she had an unloved childhoood as well as an unloved adulthood other than her child.

i read somewhere that the developers had said we would see morrigan again
http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Morrigan  
under the romance section
but its hard to tell if it is true or not

[andybuiadh]

Really? I'm going to have to be the first to say it? Really?



Ok...



Sombrus - You're a narrowminded, over opinionated idiot.

[sombrus]

andybuiadh wrote...

Really? I'm going to have to be the first to say it? Really?

Ok...

Sombrus - You're a narrowminded, over opinionated idiot.

I'm narrowminded because... what? Because I think holding people accountable for their actions as adults is a good idea?

Because I think that tormenting others and risking the butcher of thousands if not millions of people isn't just "morally ambiguous"

Or... is it because I don't buy your PC bull**** version of what the world should be?

Does that make me narrowminded to you? Is it because the vast majority of people that buy into your bull**** worldview are liberals? Where someone who actively plans to kill off their own child, or at the very least use that child to further their own ends is "morally ambigious"?

Right.

I suspect I'm a "narrowminded idiot" because you haven't got any rational thing to say in response, but the fact that I challenge your quaint little ideology pisses you off and you want to react somehow. You want to desperately try to affirm some sense of superiority... you even appeal to the masses... paint me as an outsider and yourself a member of the group.

Seriously guy, save it for the next time you bend over for your wife and take it like a man.