40 réponses à ce sujet

[andybuiadh]

sombrus wrote...

andybuiadh wrote...

Really? I'm going to have to be the first to say it? Really?

Ok...

Sombrus - You're a narrowminded, over opinionated idiot.

I'm narrowminded because... what? Because I think holding people accountable for their actions as adults is a good idea?

Because I think that tormenting others and risking the butcher of thousands if not millions of people isn't just "morally ambiguous"

Or... is it because I don't buy your PC bull**** version of what the world should be?

Does that make me narrowminded to you? Is it because the vast majority of people that buy into your bull**** worldview are liberals? Where someone who actively plans to kill off their own child, or at the very least use that child to further their own ends is "morally ambigious"?

Right.

I suspect I'm a "narrowminded idiot" because you haven't got any rational thing to say in response, but the fact that I challenge your quaint little ideology pisses you off and you want to react somehow. You want to desperately try to affirm some sense of superiority... you even appeal to the masses... paint me as an outsider and yourself a member of the group.

Seriously guy, save it for the next time you bend over for your wife and take it like a man.

I have no intention of begrudging you your own views.

But you clearly think that other peoples views are wrong. You bring politics into it. I assume that this means you're American, as only in America does pseudo-politics (I use this term as most people don't understand words like "liberal" and I doubt you do either) enter into a game.

My advice to you is, grow up. I'm not a "liberal" but I respect other peoples views. I can disagree, but I know that their views are just as right as mine.

If you're homophobic, take it elsewhere please.

[Siven80]

The world isnt as black and white as you'd like sombrus.



Grey is a wonderful colour

[FlintlockJazz]

Siven80 wrote...

The world isnt as black and white as you'd like sombrus.

Grey is a wonderful colour

Pink is better.

[kevinwastaken]

sombrus wrote...

I'm narrowminded because...

Probably because you're stupid. I'm not accusing you of being stupid, I'm just saying that's likely why you're narrowminded. You know, putting forth a potential explanation for the question you asked. If you are stupid (and you quite possibly are) it's not your fault, so we will take pity on you.

[EricHVela]

For me, the game seemed to end as if it was a prologue to the actual series... kinda like Hobbit vs. LoTR.

I can see only a few possibilities for a direct continuation, but I see many more with starting the main series next instead of a direct sequel.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 08 décembre 2009 - 02:34 .

[Happykola]

Alright, so if my dad butchers a family of four it's no big deal if I
go and violate my neighbor's six year old daughter... I mean it's a
hell of a lot better than murdering her and her family? Because that's
what you're certainly pawning off on me here. Because she had a
terrible role model (assuming she even was terrible... we have only
Morrigan's word here, remember... and Flemeth comes right and says
"Morrigan's found someone to dance to her tune") you're telling me that
it's not "Evil" to do the things she's done, or plans to do?

the point is that she is not freely choosing her ideas of right and wrong, flemeths morality has been hammered into her from birth and i will repeat that she has never had any other teacher, she has never been exposed to reason, to religion, or to any kind of ethical system other than her mothers how could one possibly emerge from that childhood with an understanding of the good

You have a LOT of assumptions there. First, let's at least assume the child will be a god, or at least have god like powers

it appears here that you are the one making the assumptions, there is no reason to believe that child will be a god the archdemon wasnt a god it was just a big ass dragonthe child will be human therefore whatever powers it has will be commanded by a human mind and the minds of human children are hugely vulnerable to indoctrination

And this is where we get to "Evil". Because everyone is self
interested... it's a question to what degree. How much potential
suffering, or suffering, will you cause in the pursuit of that self
interest.... and Morrigan is willing to potentiall risk another
blight... because if that god is reborn it could potentially become
corrupted once more. It might be a thin chance, a small chance... but
it's a chance...and she's willing to risk it for her own ends.

now you're making assumptions about human nature, can you prove that all humans are self interested?


We know this how? Because that's what she told us. We don't KNOW this at all. You and your ****** assumptions.
fair point we can't know for sure that she's telling us the truth, however the fact that flemeth admits it and further that after reading the book her attitude towards flemeth makes a complete u-turn is strong evidence that she's telling the truth


Because you're stupid. If she succeeds in this plan at any level it
could go disasterously wrong, and not just for her...but everyone else.
Rereleasing a deity that has been corrupted in the past back into the
world, potentially to be corrupted again is dangerous. Incredibly
dangerous. It's putting Stalin back in power to suit your own ends. He
might turn into a megalomaniacal tyrant that slaughters his people en
masse... and he might not... but do ya really want to risk it?

****ing idiot.

again this child will be entirely under morrigans control in its infancy and since there's no evidence to suggest that morrigan has aspirations of world domination, that is highly unlikely. but even if we presuppose that the child will go completely nuts it still seems highly unlikely that it could take over the world, the archdemon failed to take over just denerim and that was in the middle of a civil war and an without the grey wardens. Since the child will inevitably be less powerfull than the archdemon since it is in the body of a human and not a  dragon it seems unlikely to the point of absurdity that he could take over the world.

Chill out, it's the internet


Yes, it's suggested. Let's assume she was being honest when she was
talking about Flemeth. It means she now knows how to transfer her
consciousness into another host, as Flemeth presumably did to her
daughters. She'll have an infant deity that could potentially serve as
host to her consciousness... killing the infant in the process. Not
it's physical body perhaps, but much as you would be "killed" if we
wiped out every aspect of your consciousness and replaced it with
someone elses.

all we know is that she found out that it was done not how it was done, we can speculate all day about whether she would use the power if she had it but there is no implication or evidence of any kind that she intends to transfer her consciousness into the child (she would thus be sharing a body with an archdemon, a none too pleasant experience one would assume).Even presupposing that she knows how (which is not a supposition that can be proved) we have absolutely no evidence to suggest that she would therefore it is best not to speculate when neither of us can answer the question.

Modifié par Happykola, 08 décembre 2009 - 02:40 .

[FlintlockJazz]

I'm in agreement that we can all perceive her differently, however the insistence that she's not responsible for her actions is wrong. If someone is brought up the same way as Morrigan and is taught that all black people are evil, then yes pity her but if she then goes on to interact with black people, learns about them, and not only clings to those views but advocates killing them, then she should be held accountable for her actions. *Draws sword...*

[Happykola]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I'm in agreement that we can all perceive her differently, however the insistence that she's not responsible for her actions is wrong. If someone is brought up the same way as Morrigan and is taught that all black people are evil, then yes pity her but if she then goes on to interact with black people, learns about them, and not only clings to those views but advocates killing them, then she should be held accountable for her actions. *Draws sword...*

surely responsibility is dependant on freedom, telling someone they ought to do something implies that they can. Morrigan is a child of her upbringing and that is a strong causal determinant of her moral decisions, the black people analogy is flawed because it is easy to disprove the hypothesis that black people are inferior but far less easy to disprove the metaphysical idea of ethical self-interest

[taxtell]

Skellimancer wrote...

Cool story, Bro.

[FlintlockJazz]

Happykola wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I'm in agreement that we can all perceive her differently, however the insistence that she's not responsible for her actions is wrong. If someone is brought up the same way as Morrigan and is taught that all black people are evil, then yes pity her but if she then goes on to interact with black people, learns about them, and not only clings to those views but advocates killing them, then she should be held accountable for her actions. *Draws sword...*

surely responsibility is dependant on freedom, telling someone they ought to do something implies that they can. Morrigan is a child of her upbringing and that is a strong causal determinant of her moral decisions, the black people analogy is flawed because it is easy to disprove the hypothesis that black people are inferior but far less easy to disprove the metaphysical idea of ethical self-interest

True, however there are a couple of places that I feel show that Morrigan's choice of action is based more on biased opinion than philosophy.  She advocates freeing both Sten and Jowan despite both showing a lack of self-preservation, Sten especially, solely because she thinks them being a blood mage or a killer is good, whereas she advocates killing the entire circle simply because she thinks they're sheep despite the fact they have shown a greater degree of interest in their own survival than either Sten or Jowan.  This indicates that she's operating under the opinion of "Circle Mages are inferior" which is a generalisation and clearly not 100% true of all of them from her own experiences thus far.  While the overall theory she is living under may not be easily dismissable and may even be the true way, she has had experience of the outside world by the time you have met her, which should have given her the ability to at least modify what she believes in based on her obsevations.

Besides, Morrigan herself would tell you that we are all responsible for our own actions and self-interest, so she would support me on this herself.

[Happykola]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Happykola wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I'm in agreement that we can all perceive her differently, however the insistence that she's not responsible for her actions is wrong. If someone is brought up the same way as Morrigan and is taught that all black people are evil, then yes pity her but if she then goes on to interact with black people, learns about them, and not only clings to those views but advocates killing them, then she should be held accountable for her actions. *Draws sword...*

surely responsibility is dependant on freedom, telling someone they ought to do something implies that they can. Morrigan is a child of her upbringing and that is a strong causal determinant of her moral decisions, the black people analogy is flawed because it is easy to disprove the hypothesis that black people are inferior but far less easy to disprove the metaphysical idea of ethical self-interest

True, however there are a couple of places that I feel show that Morrigan's choice of action is based more on biased opinion than philosophy.  She advocates freeing both Sten and Jowan despite both showing a lack of self-preservation, Sten especially, solely because she thinks them being a blood mage or a killer is good, whereas she advocates killing the entire circle simply because she thinks they're sheep despite the fact they have shown a greater degree of interest in their own survival than either Sten or Jowan.  This indicates that she's operating under the opinion of "Circle Mages are inferior" which is a generalisation and clearly not 100% true of all of them from her own experiences thus far.  While the overall theory she is living under may not be easily dismissable and may even be the true way, she has had experience of the outside world by the time you have met her, which should have given her the ability to at least modify what she believes in based on her obsevations.

Besides, Morrigan herself would tell you that we are all responsible for our own actions and self-interest, so she would support me on this herself.

Sten especially, solely because she thinks them being a blood mage or a killer is good
she doesn't think being a blood amge or a killer is good she just finds it disturbing that such powerfull people are locked away.

"Circle Mages are inferior"
She's operating under the opinion that circle amges allow themselves to be controlled, she says that if it were her in the tower she would have killed herself rather than be shackled.

she has had experience of the outside world by the time you have met
her, which should have given her the ability to at least modify what
she believes in based on her obsevations.
she has visited a few villages on the outskirts of the wilds and her experiences there only reinforced what flemeth taught her, she ahs never been exposed to any alternate world view other than flemeth's


Besides, Morrigan herself would tell you that we are all
responsible for our own actions and self-interest, so she would support
me on this herself
then she would be wrong, we must be held accountable for our actions because a society cannot function without behaviour reinforcement but we cannot be held responsible because responsibility presupposes freedom

[Kerilus]

Morrigan shows sympathy for Sten and Jowan because she sees resemblance of herself in them:powerful, regardless of social norm and thus ailenated. It means, and is proven that Morrigan can change. You can convince her to save the Circle by telling her she would be one of them should things were different, and she takes that without disapproving.

[Cynnita]

I wrote this to begin with because I saw a lot of comments here and there on different sites and whatnot that Morrigan was an evil/bad character. I just felt that was not the case and wanted to share my thoughts.

Personally, I felt that I needed, for lack of a better phrase, defend her. Don't get me wrong, I think she could use a good spanking (which I would enjoy doing...hehe) and learn people skills.

But, I do think this is the complexity that the writers were going for with her.

If you take the time to go slow in the game and talk to everyone, including her, you can find such conflict within Morrigan herself. She has been misguided by Flemmeth and has never had a friend (as she says in one part of the game). How sad is that?

Anyway, I would think that if you don't feel a variety of things with her....such as pity, lust, sorrow, humor, confusion, surprise, distaste, curiousity, etc...just to name a few...then, I think you are not getting what the writer's were trying to present.

The other characters in the story are pretty clear as to their personalities and goals, but her's is not as she is the main ingredient in the story. Without her, the story would fail. Her motives are not clear but I don't think they are supposed to be....not yet.

She definitely needs to learn respect, tauct, empathy, and how to trust her feelings...but, I think she is more than just "evil".

Every good character driven story needs a person that goes through a personal growth. And, I think that is the role she plays.

[FlintlockJazz]

Happykola wrote...


Sten especially, solely because she thinks them being a blood mage or a killer is good
she
doesn't think being a blood amge or a killer is good she just finds it disturbing that such powerfull people are locked away.

"Circle Mages are inferior"
She's
operating under the opinion that circle amges allow themselves to be controlled, she says that if it were her in the tower she would have killed herself rather than be shackled.

she has had experience of the outside world by the time you have met her, which should have given her the ability to at least modify what she believes in based on her obsevations.
she has visited a few villages on the outskirts of the wilds and her experiences there only reinforced what flemeth taught her, she ahs never been exposed to any alternate world view other than flemeth's


Besides, Morrigan herself would tell you that we are all responsible for our own actions and self-interest, so she would support me on this herself
then she would be wrong, we must be held accountable for our actions because a society cannot function without behaviour reinforcement but we cannot be held responsible because responsibility presupposes freedom

All true.  Normally I'm pretty tolerant of people and usually find myself emphathising with people because I can  see where they're coming from which annoys me since I often want to hate them but can't, yet with Morrigan I don't have this problem and finding it a rather novel feeling. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie] 
I understand why she admires Sten and Jowan, and views the Circle Mages as she does, yet Jowan and Sten especially allowed themselves to be imprisoned despite it being against their own self interest, whereas
her opinions on Circle Mages is still just an opinion she holds that doesn't seem to hold water when she actually encounters them.

Kerilus wrote...

Morrigan shows sympathy for Sten and Jowan because she sees resemblance of herself in them:powerful, regardless of social norm and thus ailenated. It means, and is proven that Morrigan can change. You can convince her to save the Circle by telling her she would be one of them should things were different, and she takes that without disapproving.

I didn't know you could tell her that as I never seemed to get the option, and that was one of the things that infuriated me as I wanted to tell her exactly that but seemed to not be able to, well I know what I'll be trying out with my future runthrough.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[Kerilus]

I believe it requires certain degree of approval?

[TjM78]

andybuiadh wrote...

Really? I'm going to have to be the first to say it? Really?

Ok...

Sombrus - You're a narrowminded, over opinionated idiot.

+1