Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:07 .
A call for quality & collaberation...
Débuté par
_Guile
, mai 03 2012 03:02
#1
Posté 03 mai 2012 - 03:02
_Guile
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Removed becuase it's in the wrong section..
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 03 mai 2012 - 03:40
_Guile
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removed.
Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:07 .
#3
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 05:05
ehye_khandee
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Um, I do believe you posted this in the wrong forum. This forum is for DM-related posts, you are posting a LONG and detailed message that only mentions DMs three times, and is really all about BUILDING, and asking others to join you and help in building some module of *coughs* 500 megabytes. Good luck with that btw.
This belongs in the TOOLSET or GENERAL or maybe the PW forum, but not here. So, why did you 'reserve' the first reply to your long post?
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
http://playnwn.com
This belongs in the TOOLSET or GENERAL or maybe the PW forum, but not here. So, why did you 'reserve' the first reply to your long post?
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
http://playnwn.com
#4
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 04:15
omen_shepperd
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For what it is worth before this topic gets locked down, I think this is a awesome post. Thank you guile, for providing us with a very informative break down, on how building your mod properly will make running your game as a DM easier. Or at least that’s what I got out of it from reading the entire article.
In the last paragraph you mention seeking to form some form of NWN super group to build a PW. Sign me up, I would be very willing to help out in any way I could.
In the last paragraph you mention seeking to form some form of NWN super group to build a PW. Sign me up, I would be very willing to help out in any way I could.
#5
Posté 06 mai 2012 - 12:51
kalbaern
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Hrm ... you almost had me agreeing for the first few 4 or 5 paragraphs. I take issue with how you've defined, redefined, then muddled latter, terms like "uber" and "nerfed".
Uber: Most commonly misused based on an incorrect translation of the term "Ubermensch"coined by Nietzsche and later used by Hitler to describe a metaphysical/physical state combination that raised some men above others. So the most common translation of it to "Superman" is misleading as it actually refers to a "man" that has exceeded others both physically, mentally and spiritually. A more proper translation would be "Elevated Man". In gaming jargon, "uber" means "super", "superior" or "highest", but not overpowering. In a Low Magic setting, a +3 Sword could certainly be called "uber" by modern definitions, but that doesn't also mean it's game breaking or too powerful. Uber only means the "best" in gaming terms. An "uber foe" is simply tough, a worthy opponent, but not so tough as to be undefeatable. Finding an "Uber +3 Sword" after defeating 2 CR 1 goblins could be game breaking and a bad precident, but that's a condition best described using any number of other adjectives instead.
Nerf or Nerfed: Meaning to make something less powerful, pointless or even useless does apply at times correctly in your usage. However, you use double-speak and claim nerfing is bad, yet then say to instead of "nerfing" items, make creatures slightly tougher with minor DRs and such. This is still "nerfing" as you've taken what Weapon/Spell/Ability "X" used to do and made it do less. The net effect is the same, hence so is the term. Making things tougher while leaving PC items alone is still "nerfing". Its just less clear to the actual players.
Later you go on to call resting restrictions "asinine". Are they? I think you've missed a crucial/critical calculation before such a blanket condemnation can be true. The in-game clock speed. Many PWs as well as SP Modules use a slower than default passage of hours in-game. Why? Mainly for asthetics. Many of "us" prefer a slower passage of time to *dare I say it* add abit of realism to our play. The default in the OC is 2 minutes equals 1 hour of game time. The durations and effects of enchantments most especially is balanced by this time setting. If a builder increases the minutes elapsed per IG hour to 10, they should reduce durations of most effects to one fifth their normal duration. Why?, because that Potion of Barkskin that boosted your AC in the OC for 6 minutes now lasts a total of 30 minutes of playing time. Five times as long, five times the distance the PC can travel, five times as many foes it'll help protect against. Such is not a "nerf" as it leaves the net result the same. Resting restrictions are but one of many tools a builder can use to "rebalance" issues arising from changing the default passage of time in-game. Furthermore, restricting resting by area allowed or elapsed time since last rest is a critical part of any PW/Module's economics. Why bother carrying more than a few healing kits or potions if you can just drop/plop in the middle of a dungeon or wilderness map and regain your losses through resting. For that matter, why play anything but a Mage or Cleric as your can then cast all of your spells, defeat your foes, rest ... shampoo, rinse, repeat ad infinitum?
The bottom line however is ... neither you nor I or anyone else will ever create the penultimate end all of end all modules as players have too many divergent tastes and preferences. In trying to please everyone, you'll eventually ailienate everyone. Don't believe me? Then just look at the wide variety of Modules hosted in Game Spy. They exist because few ever agree on what is "best" is all. That's NWN's Curse. That's also NWN's Blessing. There's something for everyone and when there's a void ... someone usually notices it and fills it.
I wish you luck, but ... don't delude yourself into thinking you'll ever gain unanimous support or praise either. AS for me .. I'm off to play on "Thay" ... or wait, maybe "Shadows of Tilverton" ... or, hrm ... so many choices and so little time ... guess I'll just finish an update for my own PW while I ponder "who ,what and where" I'll play next.
Uber: Most commonly misused based on an incorrect translation of the term "Ubermensch"coined by Nietzsche and later used by Hitler to describe a metaphysical/physical state combination that raised some men above others. So the most common translation of it to "Superman" is misleading as it actually refers to a "man" that has exceeded others both physically, mentally and spiritually. A more proper translation would be "Elevated Man". In gaming jargon, "uber" means "super", "superior" or "highest", but not overpowering. In a Low Magic setting, a +3 Sword could certainly be called "uber" by modern definitions, but that doesn't also mean it's game breaking or too powerful. Uber only means the "best" in gaming terms. An "uber foe" is simply tough, a worthy opponent, but not so tough as to be undefeatable. Finding an "Uber +3 Sword" after defeating 2 CR 1 goblins could be game breaking and a bad precident, but that's a condition best described using any number of other adjectives instead.
Nerf or Nerfed: Meaning to make something less powerful, pointless or even useless does apply at times correctly in your usage. However, you use double-speak and claim nerfing is bad, yet then say to instead of "nerfing" items, make creatures slightly tougher with minor DRs and such. This is still "nerfing" as you've taken what Weapon/Spell/Ability "X" used to do and made it do less. The net effect is the same, hence so is the term. Making things tougher while leaving PC items alone is still "nerfing". Its just less clear to the actual players.
Later you go on to call resting restrictions "asinine". Are they? I think you've missed a crucial/critical calculation before such a blanket condemnation can be true. The in-game clock speed. Many PWs as well as SP Modules use a slower than default passage of hours in-game. Why? Mainly for asthetics. Many of "us" prefer a slower passage of time to *dare I say it* add abit of realism to our play. The default in the OC is 2 minutes equals 1 hour of game time. The durations and effects of enchantments most especially is balanced by this time setting. If a builder increases the minutes elapsed per IG hour to 10, they should reduce durations of most effects to one fifth their normal duration. Why?, because that Potion of Barkskin that boosted your AC in the OC for 6 minutes now lasts a total of 30 minutes of playing time. Five times as long, five times the distance the PC can travel, five times as many foes it'll help protect against. Such is not a "nerf" as it leaves the net result the same. Resting restrictions are but one of many tools a builder can use to "rebalance" issues arising from changing the default passage of time in-game. Furthermore, restricting resting by area allowed or elapsed time since last rest is a critical part of any PW/Module's economics. Why bother carrying more than a few healing kits or potions if you can just drop/plop in the middle of a dungeon or wilderness map and regain your losses through resting. For that matter, why play anything but a Mage or Cleric as your can then cast all of your spells, defeat your foes, rest ... shampoo, rinse, repeat ad infinitum?
The bottom line however is ... neither you nor I or anyone else will ever create the penultimate end all of end all modules as players have too many divergent tastes and preferences. In trying to please everyone, you'll eventually ailienate everyone. Don't believe me? Then just look at the wide variety of Modules hosted in Game Spy. They exist because few ever agree on what is "best" is all. That's NWN's Curse. That's also NWN's Blessing. There's something for everyone and when there's a void ... someone usually notices it and fills it.
I wish you luck, but ... don't delude yourself into thinking you'll ever gain unanimous support or praise either. AS for me .. I'm off to play on "Thay" ... or wait, maybe "Shadows of Tilverton" ... or, hrm ... so many choices and so little time ... guess I'll just finish an update for my own PW while I ponder "who ,what and where" I'll play next.
#6
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 03:11
_Guile
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Removed
Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:07 .
#7
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 01:06
ehye_khandee
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I know many very competant programmers who are builders and who have no great skills for the theatrical aspects of the DMing. I disagree with your statement that "to be a good Builder one needs to be a good DM too". To be a good programmer, one must understand the customer and their needs is more accurate, but building is also a realm that involves more skills than programming, there is admin, writing, planning, etc. to consider.
I think the OP hardly touched on DMing (three mentions in nearly 5000 words).
I think the OP hardly touched on DMing (three mentions in nearly 5000 words).
#8
Posté 10 mai 2012 - 02:29
henesua
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Guile, when you say "DM/Builder", I hear PnP DM, and I think this explains your perspective quite well. You seem to take on the issue of DM/Builder in the vein of the old school dungeon builders of first edition. When it comes to being a NWN DM, I don't think the skillset or process is at all the same. DM's in NWN are much more like players than a PnP DM is. The reason for this shift is that you can not build on the fly in NWN like you can in PnP. So the best DMs in NWN, are the ones that can roleplay very very well, and know how to pull "game magic" out of their hat at the right time (eg. know how to use their server's DM palette and widgets).
With my most recent experiences building Arnheim from the ground up on my own and then running adventures in it, (although I built and DM'd for Vives as well), I've realized that I can't possibly be good at both. When it comes to game night, I am so tired from all my building that I just can't pull out the magic to bring my vision to life. Luckily I brought in a friend who is an amazing DM, and it makes a world of difference. This person can barely remember all the lore I've written or the plan I've written out for the event, but he breathes life into the NPCs, throws in VFX, and otherwise improvises. I'm simply there to keep it on track and play the major NPCs.
These are very different skill sets. I script many very cool effects that provide cinematic magic that a DM can't pull off fast enough, and others which provide gameplay depth along with novel challenges that players are happy to take on in a game. Stuff that has nothing to do with your discussion of the arms race between monsters, and players.
Not only are NWN DMs nothing like their PnP equivalents, but I think the focus of your discussion is much too focused on the science of encounter design, and the rates of doling out loot. While NWN can be played that way almost every popular server out there pretty much does this, and focuses on this. I don't find it compelling to keep trying the same thing over and over. So while the existing servers are interesting, I don't find it interesting to repeat what has already been done.
The take away message for you should be: you need a much more nuanced view of how this game can be played if you want to make a great server. Consider the following two statements which are undoubtedly true for NWN:
(1) This game can be much much more than just calibrating optimal rates of damage dealt per round, even if you are making a server for "power gamers". Its an open ended game in which you can script chess tournaments should you wish. Anything can happen. Thus thinking outside of the box will serve you better than attempting to polish the same old game play you outline above.
(2) if you are going to build a team for a successful project you need a diverse skillset unified under a strong vision. Yet that vision must be open enough to allow each member to contribute meaningfully. This is very hard to pull off, and one of the reasons why so many projects fail, or why people like myself build on our own. You have not touched on this in your post.
What I see above are few good points that are drawn out much too long. Rather than simply chastize you however. I must admit that I also would like to see more of this energy and drive to energize the community with ambitious projects. (And of course I would like to see some of that energy make its way to my own project.) But your post rambles a great deal, and so while I like the intent, the content is uninspiring. You've taken on too much all at once.
Since this is in the DM section, I think we should shift the discussion to focus on the value that DMs bring to a team, with perhaps to suggestions as to how to generate more great DMs in the community. We could use a revitalization of the spirit that brought us DMFI. If we could generate more DMs in the community again and recruit these DMs into new and existing worlds, we'd better be able to improve player interest. And ultimately it is this interest that is the measure of success.
With my most recent experiences building Arnheim from the ground up on my own and then running adventures in it, (although I built and DM'd for Vives as well), I've realized that I can't possibly be good at both. When it comes to game night, I am so tired from all my building that I just can't pull out the magic to bring my vision to life. Luckily I brought in a friend who is an amazing DM, and it makes a world of difference. This person can barely remember all the lore I've written or the plan I've written out for the event, but he breathes life into the NPCs, throws in VFX, and otherwise improvises. I'm simply there to keep it on track and play the major NPCs.
These are very different skill sets. I script many very cool effects that provide cinematic magic that a DM can't pull off fast enough, and others which provide gameplay depth along with novel challenges that players are happy to take on in a game. Stuff that has nothing to do with your discussion of the arms race between monsters, and players.
Not only are NWN DMs nothing like their PnP equivalents, but I think the focus of your discussion is much too focused on the science of encounter design, and the rates of doling out loot. While NWN can be played that way almost every popular server out there pretty much does this, and focuses on this. I don't find it compelling to keep trying the same thing over and over. So while the existing servers are interesting, I don't find it interesting to repeat what has already been done.
The take away message for you should be: you need a much more nuanced view of how this game can be played if you want to make a great server. Consider the following two statements which are undoubtedly true for NWN:
(1) This game can be much much more than just calibrating optimal rates of damage dealt per round, even if you are making a server for "power gamers". Its an open ended game in which you can script chess tournaments should you wish. Anything can happen. Thus thinking outside of the box will serve you better than attempting to polish the same old game play you outline above.
(2) if you are going to build a team for a successful project you need a diverse skillset unified under a strong vision. Yet that vision must be open enough to allow each member to contribute meaningfully. This is very hard to pull off, and one of the reasons why so many projects fail, or why people like myself build on our own. You have not touched on this in your post.
What I see above are few good points that are drawn out much too long. Rather than simply chastize you however. I must admit that I also would like to see more of this energy and drive to energize the community with ambitious projects. (And of course I would like to see some of that energy make its way to my own project.) But your post rambles a great deal, and so while I like the intent, the content is uninspiring. You've taken on too much all at once.
Since this is in the DM section, I think we should shift the discussion to focus on the value that DMs bring to a team, with perhaps to suggestions as to how to generate more great DMs in the community. We could use a revitalization of the spirit that brought us DMFI. If we could generate more DMs in the community again and recruit these DMs into new and existing worlds, we'd better be able to improve player interest. And ultimately it is this interest that is the measure of success.
Modifié par henesua, 10 mai 2012 - 02:41 .
#9
Posté 10 mai 2012 - 11:00
ShadowM
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Hmm interesting thread, I disagree that NWN dm are nothing like their PNP equivalents. I have done both for years. PNP for 20 plus years and NWN since it came out. Both have to create a entertaining game night (many other similarities). The major block for PNP DM is learning the limits of NWN since it is a computer game and condensing the information into a system that the PNP dm can relate too. After you get them through these two obstacles then they shine as well as they did in PNP. More DM specific discussion is always welcome.
#10
Posté 10 mai 2012 - 11:20
henesua
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ShadowM, this isn't a matter of opinion. There is a fundamental difference between the two activities. You can not "build" while you are DMing NWN. You can when running a game in PnP. Thus the NWN DM can not generate new countries, cities, cultures on the fly as you can during a PnP game, at most an NWN DM can manipulate what happens within the world made by the builder. Neither can the NWN DM change the ruleset on the fly, generate novel items or creatures etc...
My point was to understand that the skill sets and roles are different in NWN. Understanding those differences enables one to better create teams.
My point was to understand that the skill sets and roles are different in NWN. Understanding those differences enables one to better create teams.
#11
Posté 10 mai 2012 - 11:47
ShadowM
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Nwnx functions for cloning blank areas with placable buildings etc.. can set these buildings with prefabs to create whole cities, towns etc.. since they are in placable form no other areas are used. I understand you cannot build/modify tilesets. Cultures can be played with just plan roleplaying, minor changes to the creature. Rule set with scripting support and flexibility can allow the the DM to switch off/on, modify. Items/creatures again with scripting yes within the limits of NWN this is a limit on the builder/CC creator also. Though all this go under my statement of understanding the limits of NWN video game. I see all this as not a major drawbacks to a creative NWN Dm / PNP DM
#12
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 01:48
henesua
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Yes, talented builders can work with the NWNX wrapper to enable an NWN DM to stretch the limitations of the engine. It doesn't change the fact that the core activities and skill sets of DMs and Builders respectively are different, and that the Toolset and DM Client are 2 separate applications that don't operate at the same time. Stating that there is some possibility of overlap is not relevant to the points that I was making, and it doesn't serve to defend Guile's assertion that good builders make good DMs and vice versa.
Furthermore, this is also not about the drawbacks of DMing in NWN relative to PnP. It is about demonstrating that the games are not the same to help others (such as Guile) recognize that the core proficiencies of an NWN DM are different from that of a builder. It is important that teams understand this so that they can develop and/or recognize team members who have these skills. A great builder does not necessarily make a great NWN DM and vice versa. So when you build a team, recognize what your talents are, and those around you, and figure out the best way to work together, and which gaps in your team that need to be filled.
Guile's main purpose seemed to be about gathering a team to make a great multiplayer module - ostensibly a PW. If that is going to happen, bad assumptions need to be tossed out.
Furthermore, this is also not about the drawbacks of DMing in NWN relative to PnP. It is about demonstrating that the games are not the same to help others (such as Guile) recognize that the core proficiencies of an NWN DM are different from that of a builder. It is important that teams understand this so that they can develop and/or recognize team members who have these skills. A great builder does not necessarily make a great NWN DM and vice versa. So when you build a team, recognize what your talents are, and those around you, and figure out the best way to work together, and which gaps in your team that need to be filled.
Guile's main purpose seemed to be about gathering a team to make a great multiplayer module - ostensibly a PW. If that is going to happen, bad assumptions need to be tossed out.
#13
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:17
Shadooow
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Many peoples says its possible or that they even have it managed on their server. Many consider DMFI or CEP new DM wand able to do that. I for one wasn't as a DM really confident with either. All approaches was too complicated, required too many time to set things up - and I needed them right now as NWN in multiplayer is realtime - and these approaches wasn't to any use for me.ShadowM wrote...
Nwnx functions for cloning blank areas with placable buildings etc.. can set these buildings with prefabs to create whole cities, towns etc.. since they are in placable form no other areas are used.
As a PnP DM you are not restricted with technical limitation and mainly time. You are building in the moment you need it, while in NWN you are building in advance.
#14
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:17
ShadowM
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Yes, I agree with all the rest. I was just trying to focus on the DM part, it is the DM forum. I was not trying to connect a builder skill set to a DM skill set. Was trying to say that a lot of PNP DMing skills can transfer over to NWN DMing. Sorry if this got lost in my comment.
#15
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:27
ShadowM
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ShaDoOoW wrote...
Many peoples says its possible or that they even have it managed on their server. Many consider DMFI or CEP new DM wand able to do that. I for one wasn't as a DM really confident with either. All approaches was too complicated, required too many time to set things up - and I needed them right now as NWN in multiplayer is realtime - and these approaches wasn't to any use for me.ShadowM wrote...
Nwnx functions for cloning blank areas with placable buildings etc.. can set these buildings with prefabs to create whole cities, towns etc.. since they are in placable form no other areas are used.
As a PnP DM you are not restricted with technical limitation and mainly time. You are building in the moment you need it, while in NWN you are building in advance.
Yes, I agree and my referance to obstacles for adjusting from PNP dming to NWN dming is understanding that. I should of started a new topic.
#16
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:57
henesua
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ShadowM wrote...
Yes, I agree with all the rest. I was just trying to focus on the DM part, it is the DM forum. I was not trying to connect a builder skill set to a DM skill set. Was trying to say that a lot of PNP DMing skills can transfer over to NWN DMing. Sorry if this got lost in my comment.
Oh yes, I agree with that. I think PnP DM skills can translate to NWN, but I don't see them as the same activity. As I think PnP DMing relies more on world building skills than RP skills unless you use premade modules/settings. In my own experience doing both, my skillset is much more as a builder, and while this served me well as a PnP DM, it does not serve me well as an NWN DM. In fact for the many decades I DM'd PnP RPGs I was usually the one asked to run the game, and I've got some friends who are very good DMs, but in NWN I routinely fall flat, and so must rely on another DM to help me with Arnheim. And it isn't just me, I've witnessed this amongst other team members at Vives which I've been part of for the past 6 years.
#17
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 12:46
_Guile
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Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:08 .
#18
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:04
ehye_khandee
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henesua wrote...
There is a fundamental difference between the two activities. You can not "build" while you are DMing NWN. You can when running a game in PnP. Thus the NWN DM can not generate new countries, cities, cultures on the fly as you can during a PnP game, at most an NWN DM can manipulate what happens within the world made by the builder. Neither can the NWN DM change the ruleset on the fly, generate novel items or creatures etc....
While I agree in principal that there are fundamental differences in the powers available to DMs from PNP to NWN, but we have broken down a number of these limits specifically to bring NWN closer to PNP D&D. We script tools to enable PCs as well as DMs here with an eye toward removing the limits of NWN when doing so.
#19
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:08
kalbaern
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While there are many folk that can wear all hats, not everyone is capable of being a great Admin, Builder and DM all rolled into one. Nor should they be expected to be. If you run a small module with a small player base, then yes, its a big help if you can do all these "jobs" well, but ... most successful PWs will diversify, share the load and thrive for it.
Admins: You can be a great Admin and even Host a module and have little or no skills when it comes to the toolset or scripting so long as you've others to fill those roles.
Builders/Scripters: You can be a world class builder or scripter and still lack the skills to DM. Knowing "what" the players desire or what your PW's focus is has little effect on crossing over from the toolset to the game live. Some of the most creative folk I've known in this Community fail massively as an IG DM. Not everyone can shift gears from going from the oft slow and tedious job of not only making an area that is challenging and fun to the faster paced action of live DMing. Failing at DMing live has little impact on building.
DMs: IG DMs are a breed apart. I think the best DMs are creative and "quick on the draw". While having a good grasp of using various widgets and DM commands helps, this is also all secondary to "how" a DM reacts otherwise IG. DMs that constantly consider characters actions and interactions instead of running events where the outcome is predetermined and player's characters are participating, but cannot affect the outcome are the best DMs. DMing skills IG have no bearing on how well that same person can build. Nor should they be expected to build and if they do, they should be expected to master it.
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On my own PW, we've "all types".
- Myself, while I can be a decent DM, I also lack the will or patience to pull it off on a regular basis. I spend an hour or two most eves in the toolset building and scripting, then log into my PW's Forum and don my Admin hat to deal with player issues, answer questions, comment of suggestions, etc... . Afte that, while I often log in as a DM, I'm tired, I'm cranky and I really don't want to spend what's left of my already limited time running events. So I don't.
- I do however have a talented and diverse group of DMs thankfully. I really, really, really do mean "thankfully". While most couldn't build their way out of a wet paper sack ... they excell in the duties of day to day DMing for our players. This buys me the time to continue building and scripting that is ever sorely needed.
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DMing is not just about mechanics and good story-telling either. You need the right temperament and maturity to do it. I've known lots of creative folks over the years that as players could astound you, but when made DMs they fail epicly as they lack the ability to be neutral and objective with others as a whole. I've seen DMs fail by virtue of wanting to be liked too much. I've seen DMs fail because they bore personal grudges against Player "X". Often though, these same failed DMs can be great builders. I know, I have a few folk that while failing miserably as DMs none-the-less excell in the toolset still.
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The key component to all the above is communication. DM "A" needs to communicate and share schedules and outcomes of their events with DMs "B" and "C" as well as Admins/Builders on a regular basis so all can stay on the same page. nothing is more disruptive that two or more DMs using NPCs to promote plots or events that conflict.
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The "type" of PW also has a big bearing on DMs and how successful they are. On my own Pw which is founded as a Forgotten Realms Module located in NW/NC Faerun, a DM spawning a herd of vorpal bunnies would be immersion breaking. However, on many other PWs such would be just fine. So knowledge of what if any themes and sources a PW is centered around is just as crucial. This also ties into "communication". As the Admin/Builder I need to communicate my own desires/expectations/rules to my DM Team on a regular basis.
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In short, while the divergent roles of Admins, DMs and Builders will overlap and need to co-ordinate, there is no sound reasoning behind a claim that to be one, a person needs to be the other. Do you really expect the CEO of an Auto Company to go down and work the Assembly Lines? I'd not buy such a car. Do you expect the Architect that designed your home to actually pick up hammer and saw and build it too? God, I pray not. Failing at one task often has little or no bearing on another.
As for the OP, I contend that its neither a treatise on building or DMing, but rather a recruitment to build a better PW as evidenced in its closing lines. Anything prior to the closing statements was an outline of how to build the project being recruited for.
Knowing what players "want" and giving it to them are two separate topics. Why? Because "Players" want it all. ROFL. They will always want "more". Players will "want" to play Drow even if your PW lacks an actual Underdark. Players will "want" +5 weapons if your PW caps such at +3. Players will "want" more XP/GP/Mounts/Dev Crit Enabled/No Restrictions on HiPs Spamming and any number of things that can or will "unbalance a module. So knowing "what" Players desire has less impact than "sticking to a plan". Players will just as easilly adapt their desires and expectations to what is offerred so long as they are having "fun" in general.
Admins: You can be a great Admin and even Host a module and have little or no skills when it comes to the toolset or scripting so long as you've others to fill those roles.
Builders/Scripters: You can be a world class builder or scripter and still lack the skills to DM. Knowing "what" the players desire or what your PW's focus is has little effect on crossing over from the toolset to the game live. Some of the most creative folk I've known in this Community fail massively as an IG DM. Not everyone can shift gears from going from the oft slow and tedious job of not only making an area that is challenging and fun to the faster paced action of live DMing. Failing at DMing live has little impact on building.
DMs: IG DMs are a breed apart. I think the best DMs are creative and "quick on the draw". While having a good grasp of using various widgets and DM commands helps, this is also all secondary to "how" a DM reacts otherwise IG. DMs that constantly consider characters actions and interactions instead of running events where the outcome is predetermined and player's characters are participating, but cannot affect the outcome are the best DMs. DMing skills IG have no bearing on how well that same person can build. Nor should they be expected to build and if they do, they should be expected to master it.
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On my own PW, we've "all types".
- Myself, while I can be a decent DM, I also lack the will or patience to pull it off on a regular basis. I spend an hour or two most eves in the toolset building and scripting, then log into my PW's Forum and don my Admin hat to deal with player issues, answer questions, comment of suggestions, etc... . Afte that, while I often log in as a DM, I'm tired, I'm cranky and I really don't want to spend what's left of my already limited time running events. So I don't.
- I do however have a talented and diverse group of DMs thankfully. I really, really, really do mean "thankfully". While most couldn't build their way out of a wet paper sack ... they excell in the duties of day to day DMing for our players. This buys me the time to continue building and scripting that is ever sorely needed.
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DMing is not just about mechanics and good story-telling either. You need the right temperament and maturity to do it. I've known lots of creative folks over the years that as players could astound you, but when made DMs they fail epicly as they lack the ability to be neutral and objective with others as a whole. I've seen DMs fail by virtue of wanting to be liked too much. I've seen DMs fail because they bore personal grudges against Player "X". Often though, these same failed DMs can be great builders. I know, I have a few folk that while failing miserably as DMs none-the-less excell in the toolset still.
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The key component to all the above is communication. DM "A" needs to communicate and share schedules and outcomes of their events with DMs "B" and "C" as well as Admins/Builders on a regular basis so all can stay on the same page. nothing is more disruptive that two or more DMs using NPCs to promote plots or events that conflict.
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The "type" of PW also has a big bearing on DMs and how successful they are. On my own Pw which is founded as a Forgotten Realms Module located in NW/NC Faerun, a DM spawning a herd of vorpal bunnies would be immersion breaking. However, on many other PWs such would be just fine. So knowledge of what if any themes and sources a PW is centered around is just as crucial. This also ties into "communication". As the Admin/Builder I need to communicate my own desires/expectations/rules to my DM Team on a regular basis.
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In short, while the divergent roles of Admins, DMs and Builders will overlap and need to co-ordinate, there is no sound reasoning behind a claim that to be one, a person needs to be the other. Do you really expect the CEO of an Auto Company to go down and work the Assembly Lines? I'd not buy such a car. Do you expect the Architect that designed your home to actually pick up hammer and saw and build it too? God, I pray not. Failing at one task often has little or no bearing on another.
As for the OP, I contend that its neither a treatise on building or DMing, but rather a recruitment to build a better PW as evidenced in its closing lines. Anything prior to the closing statements was an outline of how to build the project being recruited for.
To be a good builder you need to have a solid grasp of DMing, you need to know "what your players want", and design adventures, and the module for that matter, with the player's interest in mind...
Knowing what players "want" and giving it to them are two separate topics. Why? Because "Players" want it all. ROFL. They will always want "more". Players will "want" to play Drow even if your PW lacks an actual Underdark. Players will "want" +5 weapons if your PW caps such at +3. Players will "want" more XP/GP/Mounts/Dev Crit Enabled/No Restrictions on HiPs Spamming and any number of things that can or will "unbalance a module. So knowing "what" Players desire has less impact than "sticking to a plan". Players will just as easilly adapt their desires and expectations to what is offerred so long as they are having "fun" in general.
Modifié par kalbaern, 11 mai 2012 - 02:15 .
#20
Posté 11 mai 2012 - 02:19
ehye_khandee
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_Guile wrote...
I think Building & DMing are indicative in many respects, all scripting aside, however, PnP & NWN are very different in the DM retrospect because you aren't limited by what an Electronic Game can do & Silly Game Rule which you can't change...
Huh? You might want to spend more time on proofreading for content rather than pointless capitalization and insertion of needless clauses. I cannot make sense of this paragraph. Can you rephrase please? "indicative in many respects" of what?
_Guile wrote...
The original post was not about DMing
Agreed.
#21
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 01:04
_Guile
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So this thread didnt' belong here, I concede you win...
Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:08 .
#22
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 06:34
ehye_khandee
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I'm not trying to be mean, just honest. The DMs (bless them all) are critical but they are only a slice of the whole - and your original post was very broad, needing the attention of builders, dms, players, admins, et. al.. I strongly suggest you try the post in the builder forum where more of those interested parties might find it.
#23
Posté 19 mai 2012 - 12:35
NWN DM
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My name keeps coming up in this thread....
#25
Posté 19 mai 2012 - 05:44
_Guile
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henesua wrote...
Yes, talented builders can work with the NWNX wrapper to enable an NWN DM to stretch the limitations of the engine. It doesn't change the fact that the core activities and skill sets of DMs and Builders respectively are different, and that the Toolset and DM Client are 2 separate applications that don't operate at the same time. Stating that there is some possibility of overlap is not relevant to the points that I was making, and it doesn't serve to defend Guile's assertion that good builders make good DMs and vice versa.
Furthermore, this is also not about the drawbacks of DMing in NWN relative to PnP. It is about demonstrating that the games are not the same to help others (such as Guile) recognize that the core proficiencies of an NWN DM are different from that of a builder. It is important that teams understand this so that they can develop and/or recognize team members who have these skills. A great builder does not necessarily make a great NWN DM and vice versa. So when you build a team, recognize what your talents are, and those around you, and figure out the best way to work together, and which gaps in your team that need to be filled.
Guile's main purpose seemed to be about gathering a team to make a great multiplayer module - ostensibly a PW. If that is going to happen, bad assumptions need to be tossed out.
Very well said sir... I'm glad someone understood me...
DMing is not just about mechanics and good story-telling either. You
need the right temperament and maturity to do it. I've known lots of
creative folks over the years that as players could astound you, but
when made DMs they fail epicly as they lack the ability to be neutral
and objective with others as a whole. I've seen DMs fail by virtue of
wanting to be liked too much. I've seen DMs fail because they bore
personal grudges against Player "X". Often though, these same failed DMs
can be great builders. I know, I have a few folk that while failing
miserably as DMs none-the-less excell in the toolset still.
Exactly, your maturity & temperament are very important as a DM, as well as your view of what the players think too, after all, we build & dm to entertain, definitely...
Modifié par _Guile, 19 mai 2012 - 05:47 .
