526 réponses à ce sujet

[RANDOMvGRENADE]

InfamousResult wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

(especially if they're doing something in reaction to a feature that takes away from their enjoyment of the game)

I'm glad that you agree people should just accept if they've broken a rule, but this- this irks me a bit.

This, and I know people don't want to hear it, screams of some bad user entitlement.

A consumer's right, if they do not like a product, or an aspect of the product, covers many areas. For example, the consumer has the right to give the company feedback on the product. The consumer has the right to take the product back to the retailer and ask for their money back, as per company policy. They have the right to trade the game in, or- Hell- they could just not play it any more. They can do many things with the physical product, and there are many ways they can express distaste with the service itself.

Those are all consumer rights, if they do not like a product or service.

A consumer, however, does not have the right to abuse the service provided by the company, and violate their contract with the company- or even to seek revenge on the company, in any way, especially through their own product. It is crude, childish, and reeks disgustingly of the entitled consumerist mindset that haunts service industry providers worldwide- from the bigwigs up in the offices of EA, down to the cashiers at our local grocery stores.

All that is true but it doesn't apply to this discussion.   This discussion is about the 10th round host migration glitch and how it can potentially help some players gain credits faster than playing a whole game.    A programming error on Bioware's part getting translated into cheating is a ridiculous notion.   EA, in their SOLE DISCRETION has neither fixed nor taken punitive action against this game environment they created.       

LOL that you think people finding a faster route to credits and gear is somehow 'getting revenge' on the company.   Looks like EA can fire all their teams of Lawyers...Imfamous Result is on the case.   I'm sure they are sleeping more soundly tonight knowing you are defending them from the evil glitchers.  LOL

[Pandaman102]

InfamousResult wrote...

I'm glad that you agree people should just accept if they've broken a rule, but this- this irks me a bit.

This, and I know people don't want to hear it, screams of some bad user entitlement. [...]

A fair enough point, though one I don't entirely agree with. I don't want to go into a long rant about why exactly, but the short of it is basically the sense of entitlement isn't always wrong. In this particular case people can put time (or money) into the game, which in turn rewards luck rather than effort (or investment); which I personally feel is a strong case for entitlement. Now if they pissed and moaned about being caught? That would be a case of a bad sense of entitlement.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 04 mai 2012 - 07:37 .

[Pandaman102]

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

[...]A programming error on Bioware's part getting translated into cheating is a ridiculous notion.   EA, in their SOLE DISCRETION has neither fixed nor taken punitive action against this game environment they created.      

To be fair, ME3 is a released product. If they operate like most other developers do, most of their development team is already working on the next project, leaving only a skeleton crew to do patching and possibly a smaller, secondary team on the side to work exclusively on DLC content. Currently that skeleton crew would be tied up in making the extended ending, so rather than the developer not caring about the exploit, it's more like the they can't afford to pay any attention to it right now.

[InfamousResult]

Pandaman102 wrote...

To be fair, ME3 is a released product. If they operate like most other developers do, most of their development team is already working on the next project, leaving only a skeleton crew to do patching and possibly a smaller, secondary team on the side to work exclusively on DLC content. Currently that skeleton crew would be tied up in making the extended ending, so rather than the developer not caring about the exploit, it's more like the they can't afford to pay any attention to it right now.

This is the most likely case. This, on top of the fact that the bug is achieved by abusing the way that the game resets matches- which seems like more of a flaw in the design of the actual way that things are handled, something that was overlooked in the system itself, rather than an actual glitch like the Vanguard problem or the Ultralight Materials problem ( both of which are also still in the game ).. So it would probably require a much more hefty change in code than just fixing a simple bug.

There are a number of reasons that they could have for not fixing this yet- but saying that it's supposed to be part of the game is obviously pretty ignorant, because that'd be like claiming that Vanguards are supposed to fly up in the air and clip through the map, or that Ultralight Materials aren't supposed to affect any of the SMGs except the most recent one, just because those bugs have been in the game since launch. It's a pretty silly assumption to make.

[RANDOMvGRENADE]

Pandaman102 wrote...

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

[...]A programming error on Bioware's part getting translated into cheating is a ridiculous notion.   EA, in their SOLE DISCRETION has neither fixed nor taken punitive action against this game environment they created.      

To be fair, ME3 is a released product. If they operate like most other developers do, most of their development team is already working on the next project, leaving only a skeleton crew to do patching and possibly a smaller, secondary team on the side to work exclusively on DLC content. Currently that skeleton crew would be tied up in making the extended ending, so rather than the developer not caring about the exploit, it's more like the they can't afford to pay any attention to it right now.

You say " can't affort to pay attention to it right now...."   That is the most ridiculous statement i've ever heard.  Of course they can AFFORD it.  They are CHOOSING not to put resources into it, and as a consumer I shouldn't have to care about their management structure or what title they are working on NEXT.   I paid for NOW.

[RANDOMvGRENADE]

InfamousResult wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

To be fair, ME3 is a released product. If they operate like most other developers do, most of their development team is already working on the next project, leaving only a skeleton crew to do patching and possibly a smaller, secondary team on the side to work exclusively on DLC content. Currently that skeleton crew would be tied up in making the extended ending, so rather than the developer not caring about the exploit, it's more like the they can't afford to pay any attention to it right now.

This is the most likely case. This, on top of the fact that the bug is achieved by abusing the way that the game resets matches- which seems like more of a flaw in the design of the actual way that things are handled, something that was overlooked in the system itself, rather than an actual glitch like the Vanguard problem or the Ultralight Materials problem ( both of which are also still in the game ).. So it would probably require a much more hefty change in code than just fixing a simple bug.

There are a number of reasons that they could have for not fixing this yet- but saying that it's supposed to be part of the game is obviously pretty ignorant, because that'd be like claiming that Vanguards are supposed to fly up in the air and clip through the map, or that Ultralight Materials aren't supposed to affect any of the SMGs except the most recent one, just because those bugs have been in the game since launch. It's a pretty silly assumption to make.

2 months and no fixes?  Very logical to assume they mean to leave it in there AS PART OF THE GAME THEY SOLD AND SHIPPED TO CONSUMERS.  Since they have not changed it, it is part of the game.   It's a conclusion, not speculation.   Until they even ADDRESS THIS AS AN ISSUE SPECIFICALLY, which they HAVE NOT, then you are ignorant in assuming they are going to change anything at all, especially considering how short lived this MP will be in the long run.   Trying to pretend like you represent the intents and interests of EA is stupid.  They don't need YOU to redifine their EULA.

[ElementL09]

Pandaman102 wrote...

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

[...]A programming error on Bioware's part getting translated into cheating is a ridiculous notion.   EA, in their SOLE DISCRETION has neither fixed nor taken punitive action against this game environment they created.      

To be fair, ME3 is a released product. If they operate like most other developers do, most of their development team is already working on the next project, leaving only a skeleton crew to do patching and possibly a smaller, secondary team on the side to work exclusively on DLC content. Currently that skeleton crew would be tied up in making the extended ending, so rather than the developer not caring about the exploit, it's more like the they can't afford to pay any attention to it right now.

Theres a seperate team working on multiplayer and its been 2 months after the release of the game and they've already released DLC and continue to do operations on a bi-weekly basis and continue to update the game via buffs and nerfs and they rapidly respond to issues concerning multiplayer (bugs, store glitches, being able to even access multiplayer, commendation packs, etc).

After seeing how active they are, I do believe they have plenty of time to invest into a patch of the game that covers multiple issues that still plaging multiplayer.

Whats interesting, is that they made a recent change to the credits earned, decreasing credits earned on wave 10 by t0% and allocating said credits to Wave 6.  This could have been a deturrent for users to stop doing the 10 wave glitch (which can be possibly done on all maps).

[InfamousResult]

ElementL09 wrote...

After seeing how active they are, I do believe they have plenty of time to invest into a patch of the game that covers multiple issues that still plaging multiplayer.

I would honestly be inclined to agree with you, because that sounds like a logical conclusion. But it doesn't sound right. If the same people who work on balance updates also work on bugs / glitches, why are they focusing on changing the radius of biotic explosions and decreasing the weight of shotguns and pistols, rather than fixing gamebreaking bugs like the Vanguard charge-and-die, or bugs that make items completely useless, like the Ultralight Materials? They don't make any money off of Balance Updates- certainly no more money than they'd make fixing the bugs- so why prioritize one over the other?

Mind you- I am not asking you those questions. I don't think anybody here has the answers, and I'm honestly frustrated that Bioware is lacking in such communication with it's userbase. That is my biggest complaint with the way things are handled here- they don't say anything, when 90% of the discussion that goes on in these forums could be answered by an employee simply saying "yes" or "no".

But until they say something, I can personally only assume that the same people who work on Balancing issues don't also work on Bugs. And that's my own assumption, I don't expect other people to share it- it's just the only way that this would make sense.

[Pandaman102]

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

You say " can't affort to pay attention to it right now...."   That is the most ridiculous statement i've ever heard.  Of course they can AFFORD it.  They are CHOOSING not to put resources into it, and as a consumer I shouldn't have to care about their management structure or what title they are working on NEXT.   I paid for NOW.

Whoa, calm down and listen before you start flipping tables at things you don't fully understand. Development of ME3 is like any project in that it has a budget, part of this budget is allocated to maintenance of the game after release, and this dictates how many people can work on a patch and how many patches can be produced. Once the budget is exhausted, the developer can try to get the publisher to increase their budget or simply move on to the next thing.

Now on the publisher's side they're viewing the game as an investment, not a product, so their decision on whether or not to increase the budget depends on if the extra money going outweighs any potential loss in future sales or not. Does EA believe they'll lose out on money if they don't greenlight more patches than was originally planned? Let's put it this way: I have yet to see a patch for Dragon Age: Origins - Awakenings.

Now there was a previous statement by Bioware that additional content for multiplayer would be delayed because they're putting their resources into developing the extended ending. This can either mean they had to pull programmers off the MP maintenance team to achieve this, or becaise ot was a large, unexpected expense they can't fit new MP content into the budget. Either way, the fact is they clearly can't do both things at the same time (Resurgence is not proof against this because, like the From Ashes DLC, it was most likely content that was already mostly done before the game was released and only needed some polishing up).

So in short, Bioware/EA isn't some monolithic entity that can exact changes on a whim. There are a lot of factors that you have to consider when analyzing their actions, and inaction does not mean silent approval. You may not care about their future plans and expect them to focus on the here and now, but then you're vastly underestimating how the industry works.

It sucks, yes, but it's also not entirely Bioware's fault, so it also sucks for them. Which is why I turn a blind eye to some glitchers, but don't argue against them being banned when caught either.

[Pandaman102]

ElementL09 wrote...

Theres a seperate team working on multiplayer and its been 2 months after the release of the game and they've already released DLC and continue to do operations on a bi-weekly basis and continue to update the game via buffs and nerfs and they rapidly respond to issues concerning multiplayer (bugs, store glitches, being able to even access multiplayer, commendation packs, etc).

After seeing how active they are, I do believe they have plenty of time to invest into a patch of the game that covers multiple issues that still plaging multiplayer.

Whats interesting, is that they made a recent change to the credits earned, decreasing credits earned on wave 10 by t0% and allocating said credits to Wave 6.  This could have been a deturrent for users to stop doing the 10 wave glitch (which can be possibly done on all maps).

Generally the first DLC of any game is content that was already developed alongside the main game, so I don't consider Resurgence - being the first MP DLC - to be an indicator of programmer activity over these last two months.

As for the balance changes over this period... let's be fair, one guy can do that in ten minutes inbetween furious games of solitare if the local config file is any indication of how the server-side changes are made. Each weapon is just represented by a string of numbers indicating min/max damage, fire rate, capacity, armor penetration, etc. It's fairly trivial to rebalance a weapon in ME3, the hardest thing is probably updating the changelog and making sure you don't accidentally save over the old versions (in case something corked up and you have to roll back).

[jpraelster93]

Imfamous the glitch seems to bother you more then it bothers ea and bioware if it botheredthem they would fix it

[InfamousResult]

jpraelster93 wrote...

Imfamous the glitch seems to bother you more then it bothers ea and bioware if it botheredthem they would fix it

Faulty logic. Read back.

[jpraelster93]

all im saying is that they should fix it and it shouldnt take this long to do it

[InfamousResult]

jpraelster93 wrote...

all im saying is that they should fix it and it shouldnt take this long to do it

I agree, they should fix it. And no, I don't think it should take this long- but I'm not a game developer, I have no idea how long it would take. And I'm not going to take someone's word for "how long it SHOULD take" unless they're actually up there, working in the Bioware offices. I don't expect any random forum user to know how long it should take to fix a problem, no offense.

[RANDOMvGRENADE]

Pandaman102 wrote...

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

You say " can't affort to pay attention to it right now...."   That is the most ridiculous statement i've ever heard.  Of course they can AFFORD it.  They are CHOOSING not to put resources into it, and as a consumer I shouldn't have to care about their management structure or what title they are working on NEXT.   I paid for NOW.

Whoa, calm down and listen before you start flipping tables at things you don't fully understand. Development of ME3 is like any project in that it has a budget, part of this budget is allocated to maintenance of the game after release, and this dictates how many people can work on a patch and how many patches can be produced. Once the budget is exhausted, the developer can try to get the publisher to increase their budget or simply move on to the next thing.

Now on the publisher's side they're viewing the game as an investment, not a product, so their decision on whether or not to increase the budget depends on if the extra money going outweighs any potential loss in future sales or not. Does EA believe they'll lose out on money if they don't greenlight more patches than was originally planned? Let's put it this way: I have yet to see a patch for Dragon Age: Origins - Awakenings.

Now there was a previous statement by Bioware that additional content for multiplayer would be delayed because they're putting their resources into developing the extended ending. This can either mean they had to pull programmers off the MP maintenance team to achieve this, or becaise ot was a large, unexpected expense they can't fit new MP content into the budget. Either way, the fact is they clearly can't do both things at the same time (Resurgence is not proof against this because, like the From Ashes DLC, it was most likely content that was already mostly done before the game was released and only needed some polishing up).

So in short, Bioware/EA isn't some monolithic entity that can exact changes on a whim. There are a lot of factors that you have to consider when analyzing their actions, and inaction does not mean silent approval. You may not care about their future plans and expect them to focus on the here and now, but then you're vastly underestimating how the industry works.

It sucks, yes, but it's also not entirely Bioware's fault, so it also sucks for them. Which is why I turn a blind eye to some glitchers, but don't argue against them being banned when caught either.

So when they MISALLOCATE resources and deliver a product that is faulty, it is not their fault and we should just stop crying and take it?  There is a word for that.  FASCISM.   We paid for a product and they failed/are failing to deliver.  Simple as that.  It is not the responsibilty of the consumer to understand the woes of the industry whos product he is buying.  If it wasn't ready they SHOULD NOT HAVE RELEASED IT.

[jpraelster93]

InfamousResult wrote...

jpraelster93 wrote...

all im saying is that they should fix it and it shouldnt take this long to do it

I agree, they should fix it. And no, I don't think it should take this long- but I'm not a game developer, I have no idea how long it would take. And I'm not going to take someone's word for "how long it SHOULD take" unless they're actually up there, working in the Bioware offices. I don't expect any random forum user to know how long it should take to fix a problem, no offense.

i have played other games with glitches it does not take 2 months to fix them

[InfamousResult]

jpraelster93 wrote...

i have played other games with glitches it does not take 2 months to fix them

That's assuming that all glitches for all games are fixed as easily as every other glitch for every other game.

Now, do you honestly believe that?

I have played games with glitches that NEVER get fixed. I'm not saying it should be the industry standard, but just look at Bethesda games. Can you even IMAGINE how many bugs are going to be in the Elder Scrolls MMO?

Modifié par InfamousResult, 04 mai 2012 - 04:19 .

[jpraelster93]

yes but an mmo IS WAY MORE complicated then a simple 11 wave mp mode

[InfamousResult]

jpraelster93 wrote...

yes but an mmo IS WAY MORE complicated then a simple 11 wave mp mode

Yes.

And they are going to have WAY MORE bugs, too.

[rmccowen]

ZombieGambit wrote...

I just want to know why it bothers so many people and they feel the need to ban these players if their actions literally do not effect your game, your enjoyment of the game etc.

Because it does affect my enjoyment of the game, in that I enjoy actually playing the game instead of spending my time exploiting bugs in two-minute cycles.

I haven't accidentally ended up in a game where people were glitching, but I did get kicked out of a random Gold lobby last night because I wouldn't help them exploit it. I lost about fifteen minutes of gaming time, waiting, talking, getting kicked, and finding a new lobby--which is a concrete and quantitative harm.

If BioWare were to make firing your weapon a bannable offense would you be there trying to melee your way through Gold or would you throw caution to the wind?

I'd quit playing, because that would be transparently stupid in a hybrid FPS game.

If you would use your weapon the only logical conclusion for it to bother you is jealousy.

...jealousy of what, exactly? The fact that you--sorry, I mean some hypothetical cheater--have more pretend money than I do, which you can use to buy pretend things that will make you marginally better at a game you don't actually play because you're spending your time making extra pretend money?

The "only logical conclusion" is that you've concocted an obvious and pitifully weak justification for your own cheating.

[jpraelster93]

InfamousResult wrote...

jpraelster93 wrote...

yes but an mmo IS WAY MORE complicated then a simple 11 wave mp mode

Yes.

And they are going to have WAY MORE bugs, too.

exactly so its expected that those would take more time to fix mp issues especially for simple multiplayer modes like this dont take nearlly as long

[InfamousResult]

jpraelster93 wrote...

exactly so its expected that those would take more time to fix mp issues especially for simple multiplayer modes like this dont take nearlly as long

You don't have anything to back that up, though. You're just saying "other people can fix their bugs, so Bioware must be able to fix theirs as quickly"- which is faulty logic, because, like I said before, that's working under the assumption that all bugs for all games can be fixed just as easily. And that's a silly assumption to make.

[rmccowen]

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

So when they MISALLOCATE resources and deliver a product that is faulty, it is not their fault and we should just stop crying and take it?  There is a word for that.  FASCISM.

Roger Griffin, a British political scientist who has spent his academic career studying fascism, defines it as a "modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity".

So yeah, I can totally see how a private company delivering a flawed entertainment product fits in there.

Modifié par rmccowen, 04 mai 2012 - 04:30 .

[RANDOMvGRENADE]

rmccowen wrote...

RANDOMvGRENADE wrote...

So when they MISALLOCATE resources and deliver a product that is faulty, it is not their fault and we should just stop crying and take it?  There is a word for that.  FASCISM.

Roger Griffin, a British political scientist who has spent his academic career studying fascism, defines it as a "modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity".

So yeah, I can totally see how a private company delivering a flawed entertainment product fits in there.

Its not them delivering the product faulty that is fascist.   it's your reasoning that the gaming community (national belonging or ethnic identity) should let the industry develop at it's own pace(regenerate social, economic......) as if we are a collective with a common outlook.   We do not all agree.  

Modifié par RANDOMvGRENADE, 04 mai 2012 - 04:42 .

[ElementL09]

rmccowen wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...

I just want to know why it bothers so many people and they feel the need to ban these players if their actions literally do not effect your game, your enjoyment of the game etc.

Because it does affect my enjoyment of the game, in that I enjoy actually playing the game instead of spending my time exploiting bugs in two-minute cycles.

I haven't accidentally ended up in a game where people were glitching, but I did get kicked out of a random Gold lobby last night because I wouldn't help them exploit it. I lost about fifteen minutes of gaming time, waiting, talking, getting kicked, and finding a new lobby--which is a concrete and quantitative harm.

Now with that situation, kicking others is far to common in multiplayer in general.  People will kick you for having a low N7 level, a bad class, bad weapons, or not even being able to communicate with everyone else.    Being able to kick other players, while useful in situations, can suck and affect others enjoyment of the game.  Doing the glitch and actually the playing the game (even for 5-6 minutes, even more when you actually have to start it) wont affect anyone elses exerience/enjoyment with the game.

I don't feel as though its a bannable offense at all.  Players are still player the game at the end of the day.  And in doing so they aren't effecting other players experience in the game, for example; killing enemies ridiculously fast, not taking any damage at all, not moving (like being AFK the whole game for example), infinite rockets - just stuff that is apperantly cheating and effecting another players experience.