249 réponses à ce sujet

[poundoffleshaa]

Regardless of whether its is possible given the previous lore and ignoring the it is impossible signals that Bioware gave to justify their 'arty' ending who would of prefered the Giant Fleet that Shepard united over the course of mass effect 3 to be the key to defeating the reapers rather than some deus ex superweapon that Shepard doesn't have any real dealings with after mars?

[The Angry One]

I'd have liked whoever wrote the Reaper war related entires in the codex to write the ending, because whoever it was knew how this damn fight should go. Proper tactics and application of new technologies against a seemingly superior foe leading to victory.

Instead we got depressing, defeatist nonsense that just doesn't fit the last two games.

Just to show what the disconnect is:

ME1:
Alliance guy: "Sovereign's too strong! We need to fall back!"
Hackett: "Negative. Take that monster down."

ME3:
Hackett: "Reapers are unstoppable! We need a deus ex machina or we're all going to die! Hold me mommy!"

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 mai 2012 - 03:30 .

[Makrys]

The Angry One wrote...

I'd have liked whoever wrote the Reaper war related entires in the codex to write the ending, because whoever it was knew how this damn fight should go. Proper tactics and application of new technologies against a seemingly superior foe leading to victory.

Instead we got depressing, defeatist nonsense that just doesn't fit the last two games.

Just to show what the disconnect is:

ME1:
Alliance guy: "Sovereign's too strong! We need to fall back!"
Hackett: "Negative. Take that monster down."

ME3:
Hackett: "Reapers are unstoppable! We need a deus ex machina or we're all going to die! Hold me mommy!"

[CapnManx]

Not really. If it was that easy, it would have been done millions of years ago; some kind of 'get out clause' was required.

I would have preferred something along the lines of a previously undiscovered weakness in the Reapers, or a way of undoing indoctrination so the Reaper troops all go nuts and start tearing the Reapers apart from the inside; but I admit, I might have found those to be predictable, while I definitely didn't see the Catalyst coming.

[TookYoCookies]

The Angry One wrote...

I'd have liked whoever wrote the Reaper war related entires in the codex to write the ending, because whoever it was knew how this damn fight should go. Proper tactics and application of new technologies against a seemingly superior foe leading to victory.

Instead we got depressing, defeatist nonsense that just doesn't fit the last two games.

Just to show what the disconnect is:

ME1:
Alliance guy: "Sovereign's too strong! We need to fall back!"
Hackett: "Negative. Take that monster down."

ME3:
Hackett: "Reapers are unstoppable! We need a deus ex machina or we're all going to die! Hold me mommy!"

 


This lol.

[Wulfram]

Well, a conventional victory might have been preferable to the mess we got. But I don't think it would have really fit with the magnitude of the threat we were presented with in the previous games.

So I'm happy enough with the Crucible solution in principle, just not with it's implementation.

[The Angry One]

CapnManx wrote...

Not really. If it was that easy, it would have been done millions of years ago; some kind of 'get out clause' was required.

The "get out clause" was given all the way back in ME1 - the failure to control the Citadel.
For the first time in billions of years, the Reapers were without control of the Citadel or control of the relay network.

[Robhuzz]

If only they had put some actual effort into the ending we could've had a proper fight against the Reapers. If say, the crucible was some kind of giant signal amplifier or whatever that could make use of the file Shepard received from Vigil back in ME1 to allow EDI to use the crucible to disable the Reaper's shields (and at higher EMS, targeting protocols, outbound signals and more) we could've had a real battle.

Instead we went for deus ex machina in it's most pathetic form. Hurrah...

[EsterCloat]

Conventional victory was all I wanted.

[tilusN7]

I see no real reason that a conventional victory isn't possible.

The thanix cannon (yes I brought it up) was retrofitted onto the Normandy, and according to the codex, most other ships in the fleet that went to Earth.

Said weapon destroyed a collector cruiser, barriers and all in two, yup two, shots.

Let's say for lack of a firm number that the quarians brought as little as 5% of their fleet, and that the combined fleets of the rest of the galaxy brought enough to equal the quarians. That's 5000 ships with thanix cannons equipped. (Also note that the geth if you saved them aren't bound by the treaty of farixen and according to the codex have as many dreadnoughts as the Turians did pre-war)

I find it hard to believe that that mount of firepower couldn't seriously screw with the reapers in conventional space combat. Even if you had 20 ships focusing a single sovereign class reaper (codex says it takes roughly 5 dreadnoughts to take down 1 sovereign class reaper), you could still fight up to 250 sovereigns at a time.

Conventional victory in my opinion is entirely possible, it'd be costly as hell, but doable.

Modifié par tilusN7, 03 mai 2012 - 03:44 .

[bleetman]

I'd have prefered that, yes.

Failing that, at least make the determination that a conventional victory isn't possible be based on something tangible, rather than 'because Hackett says so'. As it currently stands, its effectively justified through plot inconistencies and the collective military acting like incompetants, whilst employing no tactic more advanced than 'form into a line and fly straight at the Reapers, then start pounding them from point blank range'.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[The Angry One]

bleetman wrote...

I'd have prefered that, yes.

Failing that, at least make the determination that a conventional victory isn't possible be based on something tangible, rather than 'because Hackett says so'. As it currently stands, its effectively justified through plot inconistencies and the collective military acting like incompetants, whilst employing no tactic more advanced than 'form into a line and fly straight at the Reapers, then start pounding them from point blank range'.

Ironically even that tactic was making Reaper capital ships go boom with no significant losses on the fleet's side.
Now imagine if they actually used proper tactics and thanix cannons, etc.

Weekes' excuse that they wanted a "Star Wars" battle was beyond weak. Funny how we have to have a Star Wars battle but not a Star Wars ending in any case.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 mai 2012 - 03:47 .

[moater boat]

CapnManx wrote...

Not really. If it was that easy, it would have been done millions of years ago; some kind of 'get out clause' was required.

I would have preferred something along the lines of a previously undiscovered weakness in the Reapers, or a way of undoing indoctrination so the Reaper troops all go nuts and start tearing the Reapers apart from the inside; but I admit, I might have found those to be predictable, while I definitely didn't see the Catalyst coming.

We already got that "get out clause" when the prothean rewrote the keepers. For the first time in the history of the galaxy, the reaper attack wasn't a COMPLETE surprise, and they didn't instantly gain access to the citadel, and all the mass relays.

[Shaigunjoe]

Yea, I feel like the strength of the reapers is horribly unbalanced in all the games(a problem with most video games really). In the first two they are kinda painted as lovecraft-style horrors (or so I've been told by people that are familiar with lovecraft). I feel that this type of threat can only be dealt with a deus ex style of resoltuion. However, when the Mr. Deus Ex tells you that they are not lovecraft goons at all, but just toy soldiers, so....yea.

The reapers appear to be so strong, the quickness they approach earth and the other planets as well as there ruthlessness makes them seem unstoppable. However, Shep can survive against one by rolling away from an incredible slow moving beam. I can't imagine something as advanced as the reapers are supposed not be able to find a targeting solution and not have to trace a line out on the ground (not to mention the heat from the blast probably should kill shep anyway.

The time scale of a conventional war would be mammoth anyway, I feel like if they wanted to do this they should have started it in me1.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Just to show what the disconnect is:

ME1:
Alliance guy: "Sovereign's too strong! We need to fall back!"
Hackett: "Negative. Take that monster down."

ME3:
Hackett: "Reapers are unstoppable! We need a deus ex machina or we're all going to die! Hold me mommy!"

You're absolutely right, one Reaper does equal tens of thousands.

[Terraforming2154]

Robhuzz wrote...

If only they had put some actual effort into the ending we could've had a proper fight against the Reapers. If say, the crucible was some kind of giant signal amplifier or whatever that could make use of the file Shepard received from Vigil back in ME1 to allow EDI to use the crucible to disable the Reaper's shields (and at higher EMS, targeting protocols, outbound signals and more) we could've had a real battle.

Instead we went for deus ex machina in it's most pathetic form. Hurrah...

Definitely agreed.

I might have still thought it was handled weakly on Mars with the "Oh look what we found just in time!" dialogue, but if the Crucible had been used to have an impact on the Reapers' shields (which is what I thought was going to happen in the first place), then I would have been much happier. If the Crucible had worked this way, it would have at least opened up a way for us to use the fleets we had assembled and the war assets we had accrued.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Just to show what the disconnect is:

ME1:
Alliance guy: "Sovereign's too strong! We need to fall back!"
Hackett: "Negative. Take that monster down."

ME3:
Hackett: "Reapers are unstoppable! We need a deus ex machina or we're all going to die! Hold me mommy!"

You're absolutely right, one Reaper does equal tens of thousands.

Of course I knew someone like you would deliberately misinterpret the thematic argument I was making just to defend this ending.
It's a shame that BioWare has come to solely appeal to people like you.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I don't believe it's possible, never did over the length of the series. And based on info I used from the ME3 Codex, # of dreadnoughts between council races (plus another half to account for other recruited support) and how many can take down a Captial Ship, my calculations come out to 150 dreadnoughts taking out 160 Capital Ships before all those dreadnoughts go down (it takes four per CS).

And I was being really generous - giving the dreadnoughts high survivability (75% survive an encounter) and rounding up on the figure. Also, it assumes perfect circumstances. In the heat of the battle, said dreadnoughts will have oculi and Destroyers to deal with. I think the Reapers can safely thwart our tactics better than the other way around.

It depends on how many Reapers you think are out there, and they obviously never made this clear. But I believe the figure is in the tens of thousands. So based on what I figured, conventional warfare is not going to cut it.

I will say this though - I read someone post about how the Crucible could have been turned into a giant shield-upgrade thing that made the ships more powerful and give us a chance to defeat them the old-fashioned way. I thought that idea was actually pretty neat.

[Gruzmog]

For a conventional victory, either the reapers would have had to be fewer in number, or (preferably in ME2) we should  have learned about a weaknes or some new technolgy that we could exploit/use.

The crucible can work as a solution... but its just not well implemented. "Well the reapers know what we are planning now, but just engaging them first and then escorting this target over here with a few ships will prevent them from destroying it!" yeah right. the thing would not have made it past uranus if the reapers knew what it was.

Not even getting into the deus ex diabolus that it turned out to be.

Modifié par Gruzmog, 03 mai 2012 - 03:51 .

[Subject M]

No.

I would have changed the Codex too. It would have been something like: Five Turian dreadnaughts engaged a Reaper capital ship. One made out alive reported massive system failure approaching firing range, two dreadnoughs apparently lost power to all main system and experienced reactor core-breach, and the rest lost control over weapon systems which started to deliver friendly fire towards each others.

The surviving dreadnaught, who was the last to enter the battle, managed to shutdown wireless communications and most of their computer core before the catastrophe was a fact, the ships initial inertia carried them out of the battle zone and they managed to activate an emergency FTL and escape after sustaiingn significant damage.

Modifié par Subject M, 03 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course I knew someone like you would deliberately misinterpret the thematic argument I was making just to defend this ending.
It's a shame that BioWare has come to solely appeal to people like you.

You mean the "theme" that someone might react differently to impossible odds?
Oh that horrible mean Hackett, not letting us throw our lives away.

[nitefyre410]

Would have been a lot better ... what would have been best is a mix of the two.. a device the weaken's them just enough to put foot to ass.  

Sometimes  I wonder if between ME 1 through ME 3 that  Bioware handed out the Idoit Ball just to keep the Reapers  unbeatable in their eyes. 
 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 03 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[ZombieChad]

Short answer: Sort of.

I think that the major difference in the ME1 and ME3 scenario is numbers. One fleet versus one Reaper. Even with the numbers you take through to the final battle there simply isn't enough to defeat the entire Reaper fleet. As after Earth you then have to clean up Mars and every other planet. If each planet has say 10 Reapers in orbit and a couple more on the surface doing the dirty work we simply wouldn't the sheer resources required.

Personally I always thought that the Crucible was a necessary plot device and would be a way of weakening the Reapers somehow (maybe disrupting communications, indoctrination signal maybe shields and targetting) thereby tipping the balance towards the centre at which point Shepards gathered forces determine whether or not we can take advantage of that opening that the Crucible created.

So essentially if a plot device fuels a conventional victory I can get behind it but simply charging headlong against the Reapers? No way.

[zovoes]

if you think about it it fits waaaaay better then the one we go.

the reapers have been killing the galaxy for 1bill+ years BUT they have been coming out of left field and decapitating the government then running clean up system by system. in ME we pulled off something that never happened before we stopped the reapers from pulling their one trick free win move and so now they have to stand and fight us toe to toe. does that mean they go down easy? no, but they have NEVER had to fight the whole galaxy at one time. i was hoping to get to a point were i would just over power them through numbers in the type of fight they were not built for. what i got was Colonel Sanders popping out of the matrix as the kid i'm force to give a damn about who tells me that everything in the last two games is a lie (because he says so and no other reason) and i need to kill all the robots or become reaper tools to win.