249 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

No because a conventional victory would have involved the writers basically nerfing what the Reapers are. If Mass Effect 2 had been about preparing for the Reaper invasion, the entire galaxy getting thier **** together and getting ready, then maybe it would have made sense, but most everyone waited until after the fact to start preparing, so a conventional military victory at the end would have been a major plothole.

[b2smooth]

@ The Angry One-I love reading your posts, you make your point and you don't care what anybody has to say about it. And the "smirking Shepard" avatar seems to fit you perfectly. Keep sticking to your guns!

[Pottumuusi]

The Crucible should have been just some sort of super-dreadnough capable of beating the reapers.
It would have been a little asspullish but not so much as the current endings.

[ahandsomeshark]

also it's hard for me to believe a get out clause was required when it was specifically said there would be no ancient reaper off button. And I feel like the catalyst is only not predictable because it's so absurd no one would think anyone paid to write plots would write it.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You would want to retreat from a laser that can cut through your ship with one shot too. That doesn't mean you can't destroy the thing firing it, it means you're scared.

You're scared because you don't think you can win.

Where do you get "no star travel" from that scene? Did he say "we have no ships?"
You are speculating as much as any "pro-ender," just negatively.

The bit where he's an ignorant old man retelling verbal history where the "details were lost" and then goes on to speculate on what is out there in the galaxy.
If they had star travel, why not say "we'll go visit one of those stars during your school break!" or something like that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Angry One wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Adding on to this, the Codex speculates that 1 Captial Ship is created every cycle. Let's say this is true...

Earth is 4.1 billion years old. A Reaper cycle occurs, supposedly, every 50,000 years. 4.1 bil / 50 k = 82,000 Captial Ships. And, Earth is not likely even the oldest planet in the ME universe either...

Yeah, I wouldn't count on conventional victory any time soon.

And yet, the Reapers do not have the numbers to take Kahje if it's orbital defences are up, overrun Salarian defences or destroy the Turian's major fuel refinery.

The Reapers don't have anywhere near these numbers. Hell, the Prothean cycle was a dud cycle for them, no capital ships at all.

Probably because they prioritized the major players (Earth, Palaven, and Thessia) before moving on to the primitives. No way in hell can the hanar hold off the Reapers in force, they most likely are not in force at Kahje. Ditto that the Salarians who are pretty weak contibutors to the war (250 EMS max).

EDI's speculation on the Prothean cycle was just that, speculation. There were many species that integrated with the Protheans, one of them may have been used to construct a Sovereign-class Reaper. Even if every other cycle produces 0, you're talking around 40,000 of the ships that destroyed the Citadel fleets and DA-or-Alliance Fleet.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No because a conventional victory would have involved the writers basically nerfing what the Reapers are.

"Hi! Reapers are my mindless toys."

[The Angry One]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Probably because they prioritized the major players (Earth, Palaven, and Thessia) before moving on to the primitives. No way in hell can the hanar hold off the Reapers in force, they most likely are not in force at Kahje. Ditto that the Salarians who are pretty weak contibutors to the war (250 EMS max).

Then why did they bother to indoctrinate a Hanar and try to shut Kahje's defences down?
Why are they harassing the Salarian borders?

They clearly WANT these planets, but do not have the numbers to take away from Earth, Palaven and Thessia.
If they had as many ships as you think, taking Kahje and Sur'kesh would be trivial.

EDI's speculation on the Prothean cycle was just that, speculation. There were many species that integrated with the Protheans, one of them may have been used to construct a Sovereign-class Reaper. Even if every other cycle produces 0, you're talking around 40,000 of the ships that destroyed the Citadel fleets and DA-or-Alliance Fleet.

I have just demonstrated that your numbers are false. They have nowhere near this. If they did, Kahje would be toast regardless of what Shepard did.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No because a conventional victory would have involved the writers basically nerfing what the Reapers are.

"Hi! Reapers are my mindless toys."

Except that's never stated, nor implied.  There's no evidence of this in the conversation with the Catalyst strong enough to contradict what's already been established in conversations with Soveriegn and Harbinger.  There's a rather large gray area between "The Reapers are my mindless toys" and "I'm a plothole".

Modifié par Geneaux486, 03 mai 2012 - 04:17 .

[Sepharih]

Conventional victory all the way. A conventional victory is literally a galaxy and armada of Shepard's own making coming together to achieve what was, up till that point, thought impossible. That sounds beautifully cathartic to me.

Like I said: I don't give a damn what lore says about Reaper's technical readouts or alliance ships. Lore gets changed all the time. There's a million ways they could have handwaved the reaper's strength in the game and made it work. All that matters to me is what the story calls for, and this story desperately called for an over the top "UNITED WE STAND" decisive victory.

[CapnManx]

The Angry One wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Not really. If it was that easy, it would have been done millions of years ago; some kind of 'get out clause' was required.

The "get out clause" was given all the way back in ME1 - the failure to control the Citadel.
For the first time in billions of years, the Reapers were without control of the Citadel or control of the relay network.

Actually, we only know for a fact that this was what beat the Protheans; there's nothing to say that this is the first time the Reaper invasion didn't go according to plan. 

Besides, if you want to go by the ME1 interpretation of things, Sovereign alone needed an additional 'get out clause' before it could be beaten.  It was shrugging off the fire of an entire fleet before Saren's burned out corpse got shot to bits.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Except that's never stated, nor implied.  There's no evidence of this in the conversation with the Catalyst strong enough to contradict what's already been established in conversations with Soveriegn and Harbinger.

"I control the Reapers. They are my solution."

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

You're scared because you don't think you can win.

"He's too strong" is not the same as "we can't destroy one ship, ever." If you're not willing to agree on that then we're at an impasse.

Benezia said Saren was "too strong" too, does that mean "you can't kill him!"?

The Angry One wrote... 
The bit where he's an ignorant old man retelling verbal history where the "details were lost" and then goes on to speculate on what is out there in the galaxy.
If they had star travel, why not say "we'll go visit one of those stars during your school break!" or something like that.

The Inusannon were also "verbal history" weren't they?

As for his speech, who knows? He was talking to a small child. Maybe they're not allowed in space yet. Maybe he was being whimsical. When your toddler asks if he can fly to Europe, you don't say "let's jump in a plane on your school break," do you?

[nitefyre410]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

I don't think it's limited to either extremes. I think there could have been a victory that mixed the crucible plot line with conventional (or creative) warfare. (like the crucible destroyed their ability to communicate or took down their barriers/shields or something)

 

^ Exactly, 

This is what  I was expecting until Bioware had The Catalyst trololololol  the hell out of me. 

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Except that's never stated, nor implied.  There's no evidence of this in the conversation with the Catalyst strong enough to contradict what's already been established in conversations with Soveriegn and Harbinger.

"I control the Reapers. They are my solution."

I didn't see the words "mindless" or "toys" anywhere in that sentence.

[ahandsomeshark]

Basically if they had 80,000 capital ships then nothing in ME3 would have been possible (if you're assuming each ship is as powerful as sovereign was).

You can't make the argument they had 80,000 ships and then subsequently believe anything else we did in ME3 was possible. With 80,000 sovereigns the war would have been over before Shepard got to the defense board.

[The Angry One]

CapnManx wrote...

Actually, we only know for a fact that this was what beat the Protheans; there's nothing to say that this is the first time the Reaper invasion didn't go according to plan. 

Do the Keeper sidequest in ME1. Their pattern is locked into a 50,000 year cycle like clockwork.

Besides, if you want to go by the ME1 interpretation of things, Sovereign alone needed an additional 'get out clause' before it could be beaten.  It was shrugging off the fire of an entire fleet before Saren's burned out corpse got shot to bits.

That was before the fleets had improved technology and thanix cannons reverse engineered from Sovereign itself.

[ahandsomeshark]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You're scared because you don't think you can win.

"He's too strong" is not the same as "we can't destroy one ship, ever." If you're not willing to agree on that then we're at an impasse.

Benezia said Saren was "too strong" too, does that mean "you can't kill him!"?

The Angry One wrote... 
The bit where he's an ignorant old man retelling verbal history where the "details were lost" and then goes on to speculate on what is out there in the galaxy.
If they had star travel, why not say "we'll go visit one of those stars during your school break!" or something like that.

The Inusannon were also "verbal history" weren't they?

As for his speech, who knows? He was talking to a small child. Maybe they're not allowed in space yet. Maybe he was being whimsical. When your toddler asks if he can fly to Europe, you don't say "let's jump in a plane on your school break," do you?

I'm pretty sure bioware themselves said space travel hadn't been possible to that point, (and the files state the scene occurs 10,000 years later).

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

I didn't see the words "mindless" or "toys" anywhere in that sentence.

Then you have a very loose definition of control.

Do you think, for instance, that the Reapers leave Earth in the control ending because they want to? Maybe Shepard politely suggested it?

[jakenou]

The Angry One wrote...

Weekes' excuse that they wanted a "Star Wars" battle was beyond weak. Funny how we have to have a Star Wars battle but not a Star Wars ending in any case.

Exactly this.

I would love a conventional victory. They can still keep the arty ending options in there too, but let us actually do something to work for the (what I would call best ending) big victory. ME2 gave us a nice happy ending if we worked for it. In ME3 it's the opposite. Sure we get to grind through some waves of enemies, but then we get to sit and watch cinematics for an hour (with a couple of dialogue spots to play) until the protagonist limps out with a wimper... after nothing we did in the entire game, or the 2 preceeding games, actually make a difference except having a couple less flavors of the same basic thing.

[TookYoCookies]

Pottumuusi wrote...

patpatrik wrote...

Order to "fall back" was a war crime. Leave the Earth without fight in the beginning - another Hackett war crime. In times WW2 he would be executed immediately after brief war trial. If our forefathers fought so cowardly like this ****** from the future, they never would have won the Naz*s.

I think that this is actually known as strategy.

It was actually the Naz*s(god, I can't believe that's cencored) that had their officers executed for ordering their men to fall back. Remember how that turned out for them?

Strategy in certain instances... Someone doesnt know much about Rommel...

Staggered combative retreat, followed by rapid counter attacks. Rommels Bread n' Butter.

He did pretty well for himself... Germany probably wouldve won the war if Hitler listened to him.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No because a conventional victory would have involved the writers basically nerfing what the Reapers are.

"Hi! Reapers are my mindless toys."

Except that's never stated, nor implied.

Oh come now, it's DEFINATELY implied.  The control ending alone makes that pretty clear.

[soulprovider]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No because a conventional victory would have involved the writers basically nerfing what the Reapers are.

"Hi! Reapers are my mindless toys."

Yea that pissed me off the most, first game sentient beings who are very intelligent and arrogant while also desperate, second game sentient beings who are getting more desperate and are now awakening due to sovereigns destruction while also being arrogant smug bastards, 90 percent of the third game sentient beings who are overly arrogant and pissed that somehow their plans were thrown completely into disarray and now they much fight conventially, last ten minutes of the 3rd game, Little Ai god child "reapers are my solution, they are not sentient and they are mind slaved races who I sought to control. now bow to my solutions, good doggy"


:sick::sick::sick::sick:

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

I didn't see the words "mindless" or "toys" anywhere in that sentence.

Then you have a very loose definition of control.

Do you think, for instance, that the Reapers leave Earth in the control ending because they want to? Maybe Shepard politely suggested it?

"Control" is a broad term.  It doesn't automatically mean that the Reapers are mindless, and we already know that they are not, so clearly your conclusion as to what the Catalyst meant is incorrect going solely by what we're told in the game.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 03 mai 2012 - 04:22 .

[PsyrenY]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

I'm pretty sure bioware themselves said space travel hadn't been possible to that point

Source? I don't play telephone games.

 

ahandsomeshark wrote... 
(and the files state the scene occurs 10,000 years later).

Not disputing that. I'm disputing the "dark age" that pessimists love to believe happens.