249 réponses à ce sujet

[Robhuzz]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

If only they had put some actual effort into the ending we could've had a proper fight against the Reapers. If say, the crucible was some kind of giant signal amplifier or whatever that could make use of the file Shepard received from Vigil back in ME1 to allow EDI to use the crucible to disable the Reaper's shields (and at higher EMS, targeting protocols, outbound signals and more) we could've had a real battle.

Instead we went for deus ex machina in it's most pathetic form. Hurrah...

Definitely agreed.

I might have still thought it was handled weakly on Mars with the "Oh look what we found just in time!" dialogue, but if the Crucible had been used to have an impact on the Reapers' shields (which is what I thought was going to happen in the first place), then I would have been much happier. If the Crucible had worked this way, it would have at least opened up a way for us to use the fleets we had assembled and the war assets we had accrued.

Exactly. Had it been ANYTHING other than  a 'Magical Reaper Off Switch' it wouldn't have been nearly as bad as what we got. If it had simply scrambled Reaper protocols, shields, algorithms, weapons, communication or whatever goes on inside those things we could've beaten the Reapers conventionally afterwards for a MUCH better ending. The exact losses you take being dependant on your 'fleet assets', the effect of the crucible being dependant on the amount of 'crucible assets', even if it's esentially 95% the same as what we got.

We could even have had our (more believable) grimdark endings for those who want it (Low EMS = Crucible messes up Reaper programming but also Relays/Citadel are knocked out because it wasn't calibrated enough to target ONLY actual Reapers)

Modifié par Robhuzz, 03 mai 2012 - 04:40 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

This is the standard trope of the panicked and less experienced soldier being put at ease by the resolute commander.

When the resolute commander HIMSELF says "this is not possible" he means it.

The resolute commander who previously saw impossible odds and said "it's do or die."

Yes?

How are the Inusannon verbal history?
Let me remind you that the Protheans record memories.

"Someday, and you'll see all sorts of fantastic people there!" is a perfectly legitimate response to a 5-year-old, don't you agree? You're reading way too much into it.

Some day, you will see. Not "each star might have life lol!".
I'm reading what we're given.

[Geomon19]

The Angry One wrote...

I'd have liked whoever wrote the Reaper war related entires in the codex to write the ending, because whoever it was knew how this damn fight should go. Proper tactics and application of new technologies against a seemingly superior foe leading to victory.

Instead we got depressing, defeatist nonsense that just doesn't fit the last two games.

Just to show what the disconnect is:

ME1:
Alliance guy: "Sovereign's too strong! We need to fall back!"
Hackett: "Negative. Take that monster down."

ME3:
Hackett: "Reapers are unstoppable! We need a deus ex machina or we're all going to die! Hold me mommy!"

This. Don't be showing me how vulnerable Reapers can be for two and a half f***ing games and then at the end turn them untouchable.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Legion explains it in Mass Effect 2.  By independent, Soveriegn meant that they were not dependent on one another, unlike the Geth, who are interdependent.  Control or lackthereof is irrelevant in that sense.

Silly retcon justification is silly.
Do you think that's what Sovereign meant? Do you think he was even considering the Geth? Come on.

[ahandsomeshark]

Of course all the questions regarding the keepers and the citadel brings up the question. how did the reapers even move it if they no longer had control of it? (Nevermind why did they move it?).

Basically it's impossible to make a really concise argument about an aspect of the endings without another aspect coming up and slapping you in the face. The reapers are powerful beyond our comprehension, but jk not really. So are we supposed to assume they think they're all powerful and don't know about the Catalyst? Or are they just lying, and if they're just lying...why?

And if they aren't all powerful and beyond our comprehension then why do we need a magic weapon also beyond our comprehension to stop them.

I just don't understand any of it. 

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 03 mai 2012 - 04:42 .

[Jayleia]

I would have preferred a combination of conventional (get a BIG fleet together), unconventional (Shepard's being sent WHERE? and has to do WHAT?!) and magic super weapon (not Catalyst/Crucible/Citadel, but a WEAPON that applies a predictable amount of energy at a target, for predictable results).

[Geneaux486]

Some day, you will see. Not "each star might have life lol!".
I'm reading what we're given.

The old man was saying that each of the billions of stars might be home to a different form of life. The most likely conclusion is that he is referring to the ever-present possibility of undiscovered species in the universe. It does not imply lack of space travel.

Do you think that's what Sovereign meant?

That is absolutely what he meant.  It was a broad sentence in Mass Effect, explained in Mass Effect 2, not retconned.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 03 mai 2012 - 04:42 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

The Angry One wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The same reason they infiltrate through the Citadel and/or Alpha Relay rather than enter through FTL, because it gives them a tactical advantage. Indoctrinate the hanar, and Reapers can take Kahje without diverting force away from Earth/Palaven/Thessia. In the end, the jellyfish are probably not high priority until they've dealt with the much more threatening races: humans have ruined their plans, turians are the strongest miltary power, asari are the most advanced.

Once those three are out of the way, hanar and salarians are probably a piece of cake.

If they had 40,000 capital ships, they wouldn't need these tactics. At all. Just steamroll absolutely everything.

Then they don't have those numbers. Period. Furthermore Earth and Thessia were lost, but even with the Turians being a primary target and a huge force sent against them, Palaven resisted.
Moreover, the only reason the Reapers were able to land on Palaven was because they "cheated" and used FTL to bypass the Turian fleets which were holding them at the mass relay.

No, all those ships are concentrated on those three planets. Victus said it himself, they are employing the turians' strategy: crush the enemy w/ overwhelming ofrce.

The Capital Ships can't land on the planet, they are the first line of defense for the weaker builds that are doing the actual reaping, planetside. They're there to protect from fleets like what Shepard has brought to Earth. They divert away from Earth to go after the hanar and they lose a lot of Destroyers and Slaughter-ships.

[savionen]

What bugs me is ME3 made it sound like you could put your assets towards either building a conventional army OR building the Crucible until about 90% into the game.

The only reason a conventional victory isn't possible is because Bioware's writers decided it wasn't at the last minute.

[goose2989]

While it would have been nice, simply from a time perspective I don't think it's realistic. It would be asking a lot for a single game, even one as big as ME3, to wrap up completely. If the entire series had been the Reaper War, sure. But just one game wouldn't be enough for a satisfying conclusion.

The idea of the Crucible was just fine to me. But while it may have been predictable, I don't think it should have done anything more than be a simple "Reaper Off" switch. There was no reason to add the complexity we got in-game

[bleetman]

I wish people would stop assuming that 'conventional victory' means 'beating the entire Reaper fleet at once in ship to ship combat'.

[Pottumuusi]

Optimystic_X wrote...
"Someday, and you'll see all sorts of fantastic people there!" is a perfectly legitimate response to a 5-year-old, don't you agree? You're reading way too much into it.

Actually that sounds pretty awkward in that context. And that's not what Mr. Stargazer said at all.

What he said was: "Someday, you might go to Europe. The details have been lost in time, but the legends tell of a Disneyland, a kingdom of epic proportions. Disneyland is probably the hegemony of Europe, but there might even be other nations there! Imagine that. In fact, everything you imagine might be possible."

[The Angry One]

HYR 2.0 wrote...


No, all those ships are concentrated on those three planets. Victus said it himself, they are employing the turians' strategy: crush the enemy w/ overwhelming ofrce.

They could do that with 1000 capital ships per planet.

The Capital Ships can't land on the planet, they are the first line of defense for the weaker builds that are doing the actual reaping, planetside. They're there to protect from fleets like what Shepard has brought to Earth. They divert away from Earth to go after the hanar and they lose a lot of Destroyers and Slaughter-ships.

Say what?

[CapnManx]

The Angry One wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

The fact that the Keepers performed their task, doesn't mean nobody was ever able retake the Citadel, or override the Reaper control of the relays.  Nor does it imply that the Keepers were actually successful every single time; just that they recieved the signal and acted on it.  Some races might have been paranoid enough to have really obsessive security in the Citadel; and a serious distrust of the Keepers.

So basically you're saying that the Reapers are unbelievable morons who use a tactic that has proven to be unreliable, and that knowing this, they still didn't give Sovereign a true plan B and expected him to wing it.

The Thanix is stated to provide cruiser level firepower to smaller vessels; that still puts it further down the food chain than the axial mass accelerator of a dreadnaught.

Except for, you know, the thanix cannons that are scaled up to dreadnought levels, like the Volus ship.
Also the fact that Thanix cannons are more effective against kinetic barriers by their very nature, being heat based weapons.

Sovereign was plan B.

There are no Thanix cannons scaled up to dreadnaught size.  Even the Volus one only has the Thanix as its broadside guns, not its main cannons.

[ahandsomeshark]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The same reason they infiltrate through the Citadel and/or Alpha Relay rather than enter through FTL, because it gives them a tactical advantage. Indoctrinate the hanar, and Reapers can take Kahje without diverting force away from Earth/Palaven/Thessia. In the end, the jellyfish are probably not high priority until they've dealt with the much more threatening races: humans have ruined their plans, turians are the strongest miltary power, asari are the most advanced.

Once those three are out of the way, hanar and salarians are probably a piece of cake.

If they had 40,000 capital ships, they wouldn't need these tactics. At all. Just steamroll absolutely everything.

Then they don't have those numbers. Period. Furthermore Earth and Thessia were lost, but even with the Turians being a primary target and a huge force sent against them, Palaven resisted.
Moreover, the only reason the Reapers were able to land on Palaven was because they "cheated" and used FTL to bypass the Turian fleets which were holding them at the mass relay.

No, all those ships are concentrated on those three planets. Victus said it himself, they are employing the turians' strategy: crush the enemy w/ overwhelming ofrce.

The Capital Ships can't land on the planet, they are the first line of defense for the weaker builds that are doing the actual reaping, planetside. They're there to protect from fleets like what Shepard has brought to Earth. They divert away from Earth to go after the hanar and they lose a lot of Destroyers and Slaughter-ships.

I don't see how landing on a planet matters. If they have 40,000 ships with the power of Sovereign, and even if only 10,000 of them are around earth, why would they need to land on earth at all? They'd be able to wipe out every military base from from space, and then go in and reap civilians with no resistance. They'd be able to destroy the whole planet from space. 

[Bad King]

I don't think a conventional victory would be feasible. I would have preferred it if the crucible had been introduced earlier (as part of ME2's plot - as suggested by smudboy) rather than as a last second 'defeat reapers' button.

On top of that, they could have bridged the gap between conventional victory and deus ex machina by making the crucible do damage, but not instantly win, for example it could have weakened the reapers' shields and fighting capabilities giving the fleets a chance but not automatically winning the war. This would mean that the fleets would have a realistic chance of defeating the reapers.

And the fleet could have been much larger had the Terminus Systems been on our side. Sure, we get a few merc groups from the Terminus Systems joining us, but there are entire governments and races existing in the Terminus with their own fleets and defences. The Alliance's biggest mistake in ME3 was ignoring them. Untapped potential if you ask me!

[Shaigunjoe]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
"Someday, and you'll see all sorts of fantastic people there!" is a perfectly legitimate response to a 5-year-old, don't you agree? You're reading way too much into it.

Actually that sounds pretty awkward in that context. And that's not what Mr. Stargazer said at all.

What he said was: "Someday, you might go to Europe. The details have been lost in time, but the legends tell of a Disneyland, a kingdom of epic proportions. Disneyland is probably the hegemony of Europe, but there might even be other nations there! Imagine that. In fact, everything you imagine might be possible."

My parents used to tell me that one day we would go to disney world someday.  Cars and planes were invited so why didn't we just go then?  This analogy makes no sense.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...
Maybe they have "minds", but they're still definately toys.  Eitherway, they certainly aren't "each a nation, free and independant" anymore.

"We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" is the exact quote.  The Catalyst doesn't contradict this, and here's why:  Each Reaper houses "billions of organic minds", they do not rely on one another for survival, and believe themselves to be free of weakness.  Keep in mind, even in the first game, we know that these independent things are of one will.  They all agree on the exact same procedure every 50,000 years.  Countless individual minds, all in agreement on a singular goal.  With the introduction of the Catalyst, it becomes likely that such a will was imposed on each of them upon their creation.  If this is true, then the Catalyst does "control" the Reapers without them being mindless. 

Attempting to point out that the catalyst doesn't specifically contradict any of the Reapers dialogue is missing the point.  He's still a retcon that retroactively changes our entire perception of the Reapers and makes them servants of a previously unseen or unheard of character when there was never anything of the sort implied until the eleventh hour of ME3.
You may not mind it, but it's still a significant retcon.

[savionen]

bleetman wrote...

I wish people would stop assuming that 'conventional victory' means 'beating the entire Reaper fleet at once in ship to ship combat'.

That too. They could have hacked the Reapers somehow, or tricked them into going to an isolated area and destroying the local star/relays. There's dozens of different possibilities and tactics without relying on the deus ex machina Crucible.

[luzburg]

i was expecting it

[bleetman]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Ships can't land on the planet, they are the first line of defense for the weaker builds that are doing the actual reaping, planetside. They're there to protect from fleets like what Shepard has brought to Earth. They divert away from Earth to go after the hanar and they lose a lot of Destroyers and Slaughter-ships.

Say what?

Capital class Reapers landing on a planet? Don't be absurd. That'd never happen.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 mai 2012 - 04:50 .

[Geneaux486]

Attempting to point out that the catalyst doesn't specifically contradict any of the Reapers dialogue is missing the point. He's still a retcon that retroactively changes our entire perception of the Reapers and makes them servants of a previously unseen or unheard of character when there was never anything of the sort implied until the eleventh hour of ME3.
You may not mind it, but it's still a significant retcon.

I didn't attempt to point out the lack of contradiction, I succeeded in doing so. That in and of itself means it isn't a retcon. The Catalyst fills in some gaps in our knowlege about the Reapers, but does not contradict it. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 03 mai 2012 - 04:49 .

[Pottumuusi]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Capital Ships can't land on the planet

Do you remember the very first scene of ME1, you know, the one where Sovereign lands on Eden Prime?

[ahandsomeshark]

I just don't see why an instant win button is necessary. Why wouldn't it have made sense for it to weaken then some other way?