249 réponses à ce sujet

[JabberJim]

Reapers use conventional means to destroy. In huge overwhelming numbers yes, but still conventional. Ground units, air support etc... every until they utilize except for the reaper ships themselves is based on a conventional attack. Hell, they even have snipers

It would have made for a much better ending if the crucible were used as a device to destroy the reapers in a more conventional way rather than space magic with invisible kids

[Pottumuusi]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

My parents used to tell me that one day we would go to disney world someday.  Cars and planes were invited so why didn't we just go then?  This analogy makes no sense.

Did they speak of Disneyland with a sort of religious veneration?

[The Angry One]

CapnManx wrote...

Sovereign was plan B.

Sovereign half-assing his way to the Citadel for centuries was plan B?
I'd hate to see what the Reaper idea of improvisation is like.

There are no Thanix cannons scaled up to dreadnaught size.  Even the Volus one only has the Thanix as its broadside guns, not its main cannons.

The volus have only produced one dreadnought, the Kwunu, named after the diplomat who negotiated their client-race status with the turians. The Kwunu is the only volus ship of its class, but it is remarkably  well-armed. Its broadside cannons and main gun are all Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapons. A turian general touring the Kwunu after its maiden system-voyage enthusiastically declared that the ship could "char a planet three times over". While its construction was funded entirely by the Elkoss Combine corporation, the dreadnought was jointly gifted to the Vol Protectorate and Turian Hierarchy upon completion.


masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 mai 2012 - 04:54 .

[Geneaux486]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

My parents used to tell me that one day we would go to disney world someday.  Cars and planes were invited so why didn't we just go then?  This analogy makes no sense.

Did they speak of Disneyland with a sort of religious veneration?

The stargazer didn't talk about space that way.

[XTR3M3]

It would have been cool to win back earth conventionally with the help of the crucible that disrupted the reaper communications or shields enough to win. Then they could have made ME4 about "take back the galaxy from the reapers".

[Pottumuusi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

My parents used to tell me that one day we would go to disney world someday.  Cars and planes were invited so why didn't we just go then?  This analogy makes no sense.

Did they speak of Disneyland with a sort of religious veneration?

The stargazer didn't talk about space that way.

Oh?

[WYLDMAXX]

Reapers tried and true strategy of shutting down the relays to isolate the different parts of the galaxy was how they achieved victory. But that came to end when the Prothean scientists changed the Keepers code. With the Mass Replays functional, the Galactic might be brought down on the Reapers. A point that Vigil made on Ilos; Reapers like to conceal their intentions to prevent Galactic reprisal.

[MakeMineMako]

Yes. A straight up fight leading to victory would have been better dramatically, and would've better illustrated the sacrifices and loss. And the victory would have been VERY bittersweet.

The Crucible was an asspull. It violated common sense, suspension of disbelief, and good storytelling.

Modifié par MakeMineMako, 03 mai 2012 - 04:54 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

The Angry One wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...


No, all those ships are concentrated on those three planets. Victus said it himself, they are employing the turians' strategy: crush the enemy w/ overwhelming ofrce.

They could do that with 1000 capital ships per planet.

Yes, and our current dreadnought count in ME2/ME3 isn't even enough to take out 200 of them. See my post on page-1.

The Capital Ships can't land on the planet, they are the first line of defense for the weaker builds that are doing the actual reaping, planetside. They're there to protect from fleets like what Shepard has brought to Earth. They divert away from Earth to go after the hanar and they lose a lot of Destroyers and Slaughter-ships.

Say what?

Cinematics.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Attempting to point out that the catalyst doesn't specifically contradict any of the Reapers dialogue is missing the point. He's still a retcon that retroactively changes our entire perception of the Reapers and makes them servants of a previously unseen or unheard of character when there was never anything of the sort implied until the eleventh hour of ME3.
You may not mind it, but it's still a significant retcon.

I didn't attempt to point out the lack of contradiction, I succeeded in doing so. That in and of itself means it isn't a retcon. The Catalyst fills in some gaps in our knowlege about the Reapers, but does not contradict it. 

Yes it does.  It completely changes our entire perception of the reapers.  Arguing that it's not a retcon just because you're "filling in gaps" is silly.  When you bring a character back from the dead you often "fill in some gaps", but its still a retcon.

edit:

"Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points."

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity 

Modifié par Sepharih, 03 mai 2012 - 04:57 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

My parents used to tell me that one day we would go to disney world someday.  Cars and planes were invited so why didn't we just go then?  This analogy makes no sense.

Did they speak of Disneyland with a sort of religious veneration?

The stargazer didn't talk about space that way.

Oh?

Nope, just sounded like an adult talking to a 4 or 5 year old.

[StElmo]

My take: ANYTHING but what we got, provided it makes sense.

[Geneaux486]

Pottumuusi wrote...
Oh?

The concept was clearly still magical to the child, the stargazer was simply encouraging that sense of awe.  He was telling a story to a kid about a place the kid could go to when he was older.  There was no "religious veneration" therein.

Yes it does.  It completely changes our entire perception of the reapers.  Arguing that it's not a retcon just because you're "filling in gaps" is silly.  When you bring a character back from the dead you often "fill in some gaps", but its still a retcon.

Again, no it doesn't.  We don't know whether or not the Reapers are being controlled, we know relatively little about them in general.  The only thing the Catalyst could contradict is your own headcannon, not established in-game facts, as I've proven.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 03 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[Virgil_Harris]

According to Javik, it took centuries for the reapers to defeat the protheans, and one of the protheans big weaknesses was that their entire empire used the same tactics. Therefore, I could see a united front from the galactic community using each races strengths and weaknesses winning a conventional war against the reapers. I would have liked to see the Crucible have just been an advanced "conventional" weapon, which some of the tech you could find to help with the crucible actually seemed to suggest (there was some kind of missile or targeting system which i can't recall the name of).

[bleetman]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Cinematics.

Yoo hoo.

[grey_wind]

A conventional victory would have been more thematically fitting to conclude the ME trilogy. The entire conflict with the Reapers revolves around fate vs free will, that we have the strength to determine our own path. By using the Crucible and relying on someone else's solution, that idea gets shot down the toilet.
There's a very easy way they could have written a conventional victory without undermining the Reaper threat: the Reapers are a relatively small (but very powerful) force, which is why they require the Citadel to divide and conquer the galaxy; they simply do not have the numbers to face a united galactic armada. If they had to give us some insane plot device, it should have been something that allowed Shepard to bypass the relay lockdown and unite the galaxy....... Oh wait! ME2 already gave that to us - the goddamn Reaper IFF!

[The Angry One]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Yes, and our current dreadnought count in ME2/ME3 isn't even enough to take out 200 of them. See my post on page-1.

They have at most 100 at the battle for Earth. Even if more come elsewhere you're ignoring the fact that cruisers with thanix cannons should be able to take down Sovereigns fairly consistently, and that they're losing ships in the final battle anyway.

Cinematics.

Right.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Again, no it doesn't.  We don't know whether or not the Reapers are being controlled, we know relatively little about them in general.  The only thing the Catalyst could contradict is your own headcannon, not established facts, as I've proven.

Edited my post, but I'll post it here:

"Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points."

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity

[Ajensis]

[quote]Robhuzz wrote...

[quotes removed despite quality of content]

Exactly. Had it been ANYTHING other than  a 'Magical Reaper Off Switch' it wouldn't have been nearly as bad as what we got. If it had simply scrambled Reaper protocols, shields, algorithms, weapons, communication or whatever goes on inside those things we could've beaten the Reapers conventionally afterwards for a MUCH better ending. The exact losses you take being dependant on your 'fleet assets', the effect of the crucible being dependant on the amount of 'crucible assets', even if it's esentially 95% the same as what we got.

We could even have had our (more believable) grimdark endings for those who want it (Low EMS = Crucible messes up Reaper programming but also Relays/Citadel are knocked out because it wasn't calibrated enough to target ONLY actual Reapers)

[/quote]

Now this I really like! It would finally make the journey of Mass Effect 3 feel much more relevant if our War Assets played out in a more meaningful way than just a vague indicator of fleet strength. Even put in a few CGI sequences of a few of the major War Assets to really give you that feeling that everything you did mattered. But that's just the icing on the cake, what I basically just want to say is that I agree so very much with you and the other guy's takes on it 

And I keep recalling the BioWare statement that they won't be changing the ending... Ah, so many possibilities of making Mass Effect a brilliant video game trilogy with an epic conclusion

[savionen]

Virgil_Harris wrote...

According to Javik, it took centuries for the reapers to defeat the protheans, and one of the protheans big weaknesses was that their entire empire used the same tactics. Therefore, I could see a united front from the galactic community using each races strengths and weaknesses winning a conventional war against the reapers. I would have liked to see the Crucible have just been an advanced "conventional" weapon, which some of the tech you could find to help with the crucible actually seemed to suggest (there was some kind of missile or targeting system which i can't recall the name of).

Exactly. Geth hacking or infiltrating the Reapers, the Turians going around in mass force and taking out Reapers in select systems, the Normandy used for hit and run tactics (since it can obvious kill Reapers), etc.

[Geneaux486]

Sepharih wrote...
"Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points."

Then it's not a bad thing.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The concept was clearly still magical to the child, the stargazer was simply encouraging that sense of awe.  He was telling a story to a kid about a place the kid could go to when he was older.  There was no "religious veneration" therein.

You know what'd be more magical to a child?

"Do you see that region of space? There live the Asari. Over in that area are the Krogan." etc. etc.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...
"Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points."

Then it's not a bad thing.

Sigh....

Retconing in and of itself isn't automatically a bad thing.  Its what they retconned it too which is atrocious.

[CapnManx]

The Angry One wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Sovereign was plan B.

Sovereign half-assing his way to the Citadel for centuries was plan B?
I'd hate to see what the Reaper idea of improvisation is like.

There are no Thanix cannons scaled up to dreadnaught size.  Even the Volus one only has the Thanix as its broadside guns, not its main cannons.

The volus have only produced one dreadnought, the Kwunu, named after the diplomat who negotiated their client-race status with the turians. The Kwunu is the only volus ship of its class, but it is remarkably  well-armed. Its broadside cannons and main gun are all Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapons. A turian general touring the Kwunu after its maiden system-voyage enthusiastically declared that the ship could "char a planet three times over". While its construction was funded entirely by the Elkoss Combine corporation, the dreadnought was jointly gifted to the Vol Protectorate and Turian Hierarchy upon completion.


masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien

Bah.  Quite right.  Read it wrong.  My bad.