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[IntoTheDarkness]

Is this game any good in gameplay value other than its symbolic meaning as a predecessor to flawlessly convert trpg into crpg?

I first played BG1 a couple yeas ago, and devoid of any reminiscence of this game, I evaluated this game as a bad RPG. It's a good TRPG simulator and exploration game though.

A clear lack of character interactions, unattractive main storyline, lack of choices and freedom in solving quests...

When compared with its contemporary games, it does not even carry core RPG element. Of course, now times have passed and Baldur's gate is considered a hardcore RPG since there are a lot more casual games, but what is there to consider this a masterpiece when it was only a step towards casualization of RPG games?

Furthermore, lack of character interation is too disturbing as a RPG. When you find out your true identital at the end, none of you companions would even say a word to express their concerns. Why didn't they just name your companions 'Rogue A' 'Soldier B' 'Mage C' instead of Jaheira, Imoen, Xan, and etc if they only talk once when they join you?

I truly don't see how people even can say BG is one of the best RPG ever made. To me, it was much, MUCH worse than DA:2 and typical bad RPGs out there. Even a korean hack/slash brainless MMORPGs beat this game in terms of dialogues and character interactions.





disclamier: I think BG2 was great. But BG1 is not even RPG; it's just a typical TRPG in CRPG format + explorations.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 03 mai 2012 - 06:00 .

[Grond0]

I can certainly see where you're coming from IntoTheDarkness.  I agree that as a role playing game BG1 has significant weaknesses, such as the lack of character interaction you point out. 

However, it's not all bad - there are some significant strengths as well, such as:
- the ability to wander as you like rather than being thrust into quest after quest.  You may not like this aspect, but it does allow you to choose how your character develops to a much greater extent than most modern games.
- the ability to act in widely different ways.  It is possible for instance to be a really evil character; that is a bit harder than being good in gameplay terms, but there are real alternatives about how you act which are not available in most games.
- the wide range of characters available gives scope for trying yourself out in lots of different roles.

To me though the merits of BG1 as a rpg is not really the issue.  I've never played BG because it's a rpg, but simply because it's a good game.  For instance:
- there are lots of options in how you play, with probably the best developed magic system I've seen in a game. 
- there's quite a bit of humour in the game; while BG1 is lacking in party interaction there are still plenty of little gems when you take the time to talk to characters off the beaten track.
- the tactical challenges are interesting and the fact that most of these are available at any level means that even experienced players have the opportunity to play the game in such a way it still offers a challenge.
- even though the code was not written with mods in mind the game has been very extensively modded.  This not only offers new opportunities for play, but also demonstrates how many people are still interested in it and believe it's a good game.
- the artwork was exceptional for its time and still stands up well today, although to my mind BG1 suffered from the limited resolution supported.
- the soundtrack is excellent and there's a good balance between written and voiced script.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Grond0 wrote...

Thank you for your inputs. I actually wanted to play old Bioware games one by one, starting from the oldest, but I wasn't sure where to find the game attractive given my past disappointments with the game.

I will try it again one day.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 03 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[termokanden]

I don't get it. I loved BG1. But then again I was very much into AD&D 2nd edition by then.

That said, it's not for everyone. I know more than one person who didn't see what was so great about it at all. For me, this game was absolutely huge and I was stuck in front of the screen more than my parents liked, that's for sure. And then some.

[fro7k]

I think your negative impression reflects what matters to you in a game. I wouldn't hesitate to concede the dialog and party interactions were lacking (and BG2 improves that area quite a bit). But I find BG1 to be very marginally the better game (I'm in the minority). The mystery and intrigue around the antagonist kept me hooked, and I found the world and a wonderful magical place to explore, possibly the largest game of its time.

If you came from Dragon Age then that represents the other extreme, where exploration and world-building is sacrificed for narrative and character interactions. BG2 strikes a perfect balance, but I prefer BG1 because of its focus on the exploration. In other words I like BG2 infintesimally less, and Dragon Age a lot less, because it focuses, to the cost of other things, too much on what you were dissapointed not to find in BG1.

What you consider a 'staple' of an RPG experience might simply down to which games you played first. I could critique DA:O as lacking 'crucial' elements of an RPG in much the same way, like: free exploration, maps that aren't steering you toward an inevitable destination and only create the illusion of a complex environment, missions with heart that aren't streamlined identical unmemorable mercenary work assigned in pattern dialog by various tavern-owners, etc...

Also the 'casualisation' of RPGs was far from underway in 1998.

Modifié par fro7k, 03 mai 2012 - 09:43 .

[termokanden]

Hah, thanks for that post fro7k. I actually feel the same about BG1. Most people I have discussed the game with preferred BG2, but they all started out with BG2. I don't know, maybe it's because BG1 was the first RPG that really got me hooked. But the magic of exploration you mention was exactly what made it such a good experience for me. I remember the anticipation of actually seeing Baldur's Gate from the inside (the damn bridge was up ) and actually finally getting there.

On the other hand, as you say, this game had NOT been casualized. Not at all. In fact, it did not explain the AD&D rules at all. The manual sort of did, but not like the player's handbook, that's for sure. My non-roleplaying friends found it unforgiving and poorly explained. And they were right.  Why do fighters get 18/xx? What's a THAC0? And to top it off, you start out with VERY few hit points and can be killed by almost anything. A truly casual RPG is easy to understand without reading manuals and books, and it certainly doesn't get you killed early on.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2012 - 10:10 .

[Grimwald the Wise]

I too still slightly prefer BG1 to BG2, but I do have a lot of mods installed nowadays. They give more characters, more interaction between party members and suchlike. The fact that after many years of play, I can still have completely different games makes it one of the best that I have ever played. The fact that the rules are not explained in some ways made it better. I didn't try to understand the rules, but just played and by experience found out what worked. The discovery was actually fun.

[ussnorway]

I'd suggest that you look for an old RPG game called Wizardry... there are 8 in the series but only 7* & 8 will play on windows machines. With superb party cit-chat, epic storytelling, difficult battles & a full manual... These are the best p&p-computer RPG adaptations that I ever encountered & will make BG look like a Mills & Boon paperback romance when compared.

* The windows version of 7 is called Wizardry Gold.

[Gate70]

Sorry to hear you didn't connect with it.

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
A clear lack of character interactions, unattractive main storyline, lack of choices and freedom in solving quests...

Party interactions are minimal in the unmodded game but there are numerous interactions with other characters away from the main plot. I won't go into details in the general discussion thread but talking to various characters can add significant volumes of dialogue and open up minor quests.

Unattractive main story line? I thought it was better than BG2 or Throne of Bhaal but each to their own.

Lack of choices? Again, no spoilers but I can think of a number of situations where you may be able to choose different paths or outcomes, or not be offered options depending on character alignment etc. Ability to do a completionist approach or only do plot-critical tasks.Choose from 20+ NPC's (although I guess Mech Commander etc similar offered more). Play solo or with a self created party. Multiplayer.

Freedom in solving quests? The game allows a lot of flexibility in my opinion, possibly more than the developers envisaged. No-killing. No XP. Exploiting certain items. Hack and slash. Sneak and steal. Summons overload. Magic excess. Out of control frenzies. Help everybody. Kill or hinder everybody.

The expansion adds a bit of variety although it could be seen as beyond what a casual player would care to experience. A brief magical challenge where at least one enemy can be convinced not to fight. A challenging melee encounter. A sustained dungeon crawl culminating in perhaps the hardest battles of the game.

[Ishad Nha]

Would Baldurs Gate Trilogy increase the enjoyment of BG1? I have never played it myself.
As for Wizardry, you may get earlier games to play with the DosBox program.

[EVani]

The problem is BG1 is one of the earliest game where the developer didn't have a lot of budget, technology or experience as they do for the latter games. The concept is still very good though and it laid great groundwork for the rest of the series/rpg genre in general. In its time it is easily considered one of the best.

[EVani]

And yeah, I do agree that BG2 is far superior to BG1 in every way.

[EVani]

@Ishad: It would make you become more familiar with the characters and the backgrounds. BGT just puts BG1 into BG2 engine so it has better UI and graphics. The dialogue/party interactions/plot execution and combat variety is still the same(the weakest point of BG1 and strongest points of BG2 as evaluated right now)

Also, BGT allows you to add kits and the sorcerer class (BG1 doesn't have them), making the game ridiculously easy.Then again, I put on any difficulty mods I can find partly cos I use every cheese combo I can think of.

[termokanden]

Enter building. See enemy spellcaster start casting. Exit building. Enter building. Enemy spellcaster now has one spell less.

Or the good old Cloudkill before they can reach you

Apparently BG2 had funny exploits too like wishing to rest, which would replenish your spells (including Limited Wish). If I remember correctly.

Modifié par termokanden, 05 mai 2012 - 12:26 .

[fro7k]

termokanden wrote...

Enter building. See enemy spellcaster start casting. Exit building. Enter building. Enemy spellcaster now has one spell less.

Or the good old Cloudkill before they can reach you

Apparently BG2 had funny exploits too like wishing to rest, which would replenish your spells (including Limited Wish). If I remember correctly.

It was worse than that in BG1, at least for me (I mentioned it in a discussion once and everyone said they couldn't reproduce the effect).  Basically every time I paused the game it would roll the die for spellcasting interruption on all mage enemies!  You could totally neutralize the enemy mage this way, even if you didn't want to.  I don't know how the glitch emerged though because I don't remember it happening on every playthrough and I think I would have noticed.

I have my fingers crossed that the Enhanced Edition does away with all the exploits you mentioned.  Cloudkill was also worse than you describe in BG2 pre-patch, as it wouldn't initiate the enemies' AI to attack you or attempt to leave the cloud, there was no "before they can reach you".  Was a well-known exploit for defeating dragons etc.

I wouldn't call wishing to be rested an exploit.  It wasn't put there by accident, you were meant to make use of it, it's a rare and powerful spell after all.  I only made use of it in one situation which was to beat Amellysan solo.  I'd hung onto every wish scroll I came across just for that encounter.

It would make you become more familiar with the characters and the
backgrounds. BGT just puts BG1 into BG2 engine so it has better UI and
graphics.

I recommend that if one can get the game to work on a modern computer that one play BG1 vanilla, at least at first, no engine replacement.  Besides the kits you mentioned that can be OP for the BG1 campaign, the random encounters are hard-coded into the BG2 engine and are out-of-depth in BG1, you can run into ghasts, wyverns and dire wolves from the very beginning if you're unlucky.  A lot of people go along with the suggestion to patch the game to the BG2 engine with BGT or tutu and assume they're getting the authentic experience, and then cry that the game is too hard.  It's unfortunate that this is the stock advice given out to newcomers and I try to counter it wherever i see it.

Modifié par fro7k, 05 mai 2012 - 02:18 .

[termokanden]

That's actually what I meant about Cloudkill. Interestingly, Storm of the Century in DAO can be used in the same way if you are far enough away.

As for wish, I just saw my neighbor abusing the crap out of it. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong (it has been many years), but I thought it was Limited Wish (which can be memorized), meaning you could keep resting no matter where you were.

But the most broken thing in BG2 was the spell reflection cloak you could find. I think this has been fixed, but when I played it the first time, it would reflect everything, including beholder eye beams and everything Irenicus could throw at you.

I also hope the Enhanced Edition will remove the exploits.

Modifié par termokanden, 05 mai 2012 - 05:14 .

[fro7k]

I remember that cloak, it made that beholder nest laughably free.  Didn't realise its abilities got patched out...

Modifié par fro7k, 05 mai 2012 - 06:54 .

[termokanden]

I forgot whether it was "fixed" or not. In any case, it's one of the most overpowered items I've ever seen in a game.

Modifié par termokanden, 05 mai 2012 - 07:06 .

[Grimwald the Wise]

There is also the shild of Balduran that reflects Beholder's Rays. However, that is what it is supposed to do. The price makes it difficult to get, and you have to be able to carry it. (No good for a mage or thief). This makes it far less overpowered.

[Ishad Nha]

I make it my first big purchase and I give it to my lead fighter. It may be overpowered but the alternative is the party being massacred by Beholder rays.

[LeBurns]

Well I always liked BG2 better. Mainly due to the deeper character relationships and romances. Plus you are playing higher level so you have more spells, items, dragons, etc.

From BG1 I did like Mince and Alora. In fact I did the single-player/ multi-player trick in BG2 and added an exact double of Alora in BG2, complete with her sound file. Happy Happy Joy Joy!

[Shivaxx]

I agree with a lot of points of 2nd post by Grond0. Baldur's Gate is on top of my list of best RPG's ever. Lack of character interaction is the largest minus, but this is addressed extremely well by the fan-made NPC mod (everyone should install it, even on 1st run IMO).

I have tried hard pinpointing the one thing which sets BG1 above everything else, and the final solution? I have to say it is the exploration and free roaming. Somehow they captured quite the exact balance in BG1. You have quite a few seemingly meaningless areas, which still create the feeling (or illusion) that the game world really exists seperately from the main plot. Areas were not fully packed with grand quests or enemies, but rather just existed for you to roam and explore (and not without rewards!).

Sure the story and general background in BG1 are very well thought. However I would say that the story aspect has been been similarly addressed in more recent titles like KOTOR, Dragons Age. I just dislike the fact that free roaming is diminished in these titles, and you do not get to explore the world more. And if you do get to explore, there's always that guest giver in each location waiting for you to save the world... Sigh.

[Mathuzzz]

I agree, that after playing BG2, Neverwinter Nights 2 or Dragon Age, characters seem very boring and flat in BG1, but there are other virtues, which makes it great for me, mainly as posted above, the exploration, hundreds of little or larger encounters, all different, which made you feel like in the real world, with mysterious story, great voice acting and the best soundtrack I have ever heard in the game along with BG2. Nowadays, with dozens of MMORPGS with open worlds and other singleplayer RPGs which used this formula, the open world doesn't sound that interesting, but I still think, that BG1 catch it's atmosphere the best, maybe because it's world isn't too much fantasy, but seem more like ordinary medieval world where magic encounter meant that this encounter must be serious.

[NExUS1g]

I'm opposite from you entirely. I actually don't like current the single-player JRPG-style that has become the norm. I don't have a problem with JRPGs per se, but I do have a problem with them being the norm. They take me on a ride and tell me a story, but it's a theme park ride. You may like to play it, but it's the same every time you run through it and it gets stale pretty quick.

On the other hand, less in-depth on the roleplaying and more in-depth on the game play always wins the day for me. The Elder Scrolls, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc. that plop you in a sandbox and let you go at it are what I love.

I guess when it comes down to it, character interaction really isn't that special for me because it feels phony on the computer. I'm prompting scripted actions to happen and more often than not, I feel I've made no impact on the world. It just doesn't "do it" for me like role playing with another human being so it's a feature I could take or leave. For me, it's all about gameplay.